MJ

Well, if your post is characteristic of all "lusavorchagans," then they [Protestants] are absolutely right - you are a bunch of melted residual wax collecting sectants who have done nothing but corrupted the essence of Christianity.

Israel is Armenia's #1 import partner as far as the $-amount is concerned (Belgium being the #1 export partner.) The answer to the rest of your questions is more or less "yes."

And who the Hell are you to make requests on behalf of the other members of this forum?

Arpa, As fast as he can spin, how does Axel himself belong to our Nation? Isn't it clear by now that he is a Turkish propagandist trying to get into the trust of "Der Voghormea Armenians?"

PF, I hardly would like to contribute on the subject of Persian Jewesses. I can only tell you that I experience no shock at learning that Zoroastrianism and Judaism precede Christianity on the capacity of monotheistic religions – that is widely recognized and is an undisputable fact. With all due respect, I have to claim that your argument about Holly Trinity is very superficial (if I would have not wanted to be careful, I just would have said it is BS.) Also, the intermarriages between Armenians and Jews have been and remain quite common - common not in the statistically sense of the word but there is enough evidence to claim that here are no obstacles to such intermarriages.

Are you saying that Jehovah's Witnesses had more money at their disposal than Etchmiadzin? I have met several converts into Protestantism. I am much impressed by these guys. Each of them would qualify as modern day Apostle. I was especially impressed by one guy from Yerevan - Arshag - who lives in New Jersey, now. If I was looking for spiritual communion, for example, I certainly would not even get close to the Armenian Church. If I want to attend Liturgy, I certainly would go to a Protestant Church. If I want to open my heart to a priest, it certainly would be a Protestant priest rather than Armenian Apostolic. And I get neither money from any of the Protestants or others nor food, etc. There is no God (but only ritual) in the Armenian Church. That’s why people who are in search of God get away from it – as simple as that. Cynicism may be the mantra of some of the younger people these days, but it doesn’t explain why things happen the way they do and it manifests too simplistic a mentality. P.S. How do you explain that the young Amrenian Jehovah's Witnesses go to jail but refuse to serve in the army? Are they doing it becasue they are paid or receive food to prefer jail to army?

I disagree. I think, then and now, people were/are converting to Protestantism or whatever because they have spiritual needs which are not being satisfied (even remotely) by others who claim to have a function of filling such needs.

Azat, Why did they, then, "convert" into Protestantism?

Given that in the last couple of years the political process in Armenia has manifested itself as a replica of the Russian reality with few years delay, the below material might perhaps contain some predictive capacity. ____________________________________________________________________ Russia's Wealthiest Man Arrested Saturday, October 25, 2003 MOSCOW — Black-uniformed special forces swept onto the airplane of Russia's wealthiest man Saturday and forced him back to Moscow, where he was ordered jailed on criminal charges — a dramatic escalation of the politically charged probe into Russia's largest oil company. Mikhail Khodorkovsky (search) was charged Saturday with fraud, forgery and other crimes hours after the special forces troops, weapons drawn, surrounded his private plane at a Siberian airport. The dramatic arrest alarmed the country's business and political elite, with many analysts saying the actions against Yukos are a Kremlin-directed campaign to keep Khodorkovsky out of politics. Khodorkovsky, who has openly funded opposition parties, is the latest of Russia's superrich oligarchs to be pursued by President Vladimir Putin's (search) government. Tycoons Boris Berezovsky and Vladimir Gusinsky have gone into self-imposed exile to avoid criminal prosecution. The Prosecutor General's office charged Khodorkovsky with fraud, forgery, embezzlement and personal and corporate tax evasion, the news agency Interfax reported. A spokesman for the office told The Associated Press that charges had been filed, but gave no specifics. The charges were filed in Moscow, where Khodorkovsky was brought after he was detained during a business trip in Novosibirsk (search), the main city of Siberia. Khodorkovsky could be kept until Dec. 30 in a pre-trial detention facility, his lawyer Anton Drel said. The shabby and overcrowded detention units are widely considered worse than Russia's prisons. "The charges of the prosecutor are groundless. The detention of Mikhail Khodorkovsky is aimed at fanning a big scandal which would cover up the lack of evidence in the so-called Yukos case," Yukos spokesman Alexander Shadrin told AP. Shadrin said Khodorkovsky's plane was surrounded by trucks after it landed in Novosibirsk and black-uniformed forces identifying themselves as FSB — the main successor to the Soviet-era KGB — boarded the plane shouting "put down your weapons or we'll shoot." "They used sort of special forces as if they were dealing with a terrorist," Shadrin said. The 40-year-old Khodorkovsky, whose wealth was estimated by Forbes magazine (search) at $8 billion, is one of the most prominent of Russia's so-called "oligarchs" — men who made huge, quick fortunes after the collapse of the Soviet Union by acquiring state property at low prices in deals whose ethics came under question. The oligarchs are greatly resented by large numbers of Russians who did not benefit from the privatization of state property. Both parliamentary and presidential elections will be held in the coming months, and the standing of pro-Kremlin parties among ordinary Russians has been strengthened by the pressure being put on oligarchs by the authorities. Under Putin, authorities stripped Gusinsky of his media empire and charged him with fraud and have charged Berezovsky with fraud in connection with an automobile company. Both now live overseas, where courts have rejected Russian extradition requests. Both Gusinsky and Berezovsky allege that the actions against them are a political vendetta in retaliation for criticism of Putin. The Kremlin says that the prosecutor's office is an independent agency outside presidential control. Khodorkovsky has given funding to the opposition Yabloko and Union of Right Forces parties and is believed to have personal political ambitions. As head of the largest company dealing in Russia's largest export commodity, Khodorkovsky can wield substantial influence, and his potency was likely to increase with Yukos' recently finalized merger with Sibneft to create the world's fourth-largest oil exporting company. On Thursday, investigators raided a public relations company that was doing work for Yabloko in the election campaign for the national parliament, reportedly looking for evidence connected to the Yukos probe. Top Russian businessmen and political leaders across the political spectrum expressed concern about Khodorkovsky's detention, including Communist Party head Gennady Zyuganov, who told Interfax he was "extremely worried." "We think that this extremely dangerous development of events can only be stopped by the clear, unambiguously presented position of Russian President Putin," said Anatoly Chubais, who oversaw the privatization of state assets in the 1990s and now heads the national electricity company. Putin's failure to do this "will bring Russia into an irreversible process of worsening business conditions," he said. The action may also raise a warning flag to foreign investors who have been increasingly putting money into Russia, boosting the economy strongly after the collapse of the ruble in 1998. Despite Russia's vast potential, many investors are leery of the country because of its capricious legal system and concerns about shareholder protection and corporate transparency. Although U.S. companies have hesitated to step into the still-risky Russian oil market, Exxon Mobil was reported this month to be considering buying a 25-percent stake in the merged Yukos-Sibneft operation. The investigation began in July with the arrest of Platon Lebedev, a top Yukos shareholder and board chairman of Menatep Group, on charges of theft of state property during the 1994 privatization of a fertilizer plant. Lebedev has remained in jail awaiting trial. Last week, prosecutors also filed tax evasion charges against a Yukos manager, Vasily Shakhnovsky, who oversees day-to-day company operations and is responsible for customer relations and auditing. http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_st...,101231,00.html

As I have mentioed before, with such Knights no one nedds an Army.

But how were Armenians Christians, then, Azat?

When the big wolf, the big fox are at the tree, the crow on the tree might need to be advised that the price of cheese will go up - “Banir@ tang e.”

As a side note, Voltaire's famous quote "If God did not exist, people would have invented Him," is one of the most peculiarly misinterpreted ones throughout history. It is commonly interpreted as a testimony of Voltaire being an atheist. In fact, if we were to judge just on the basis of this quote, it would imply quite the opposite.

Windmills would be nice things to have, given that we have more than enough Poncho Sanchezes. It remains only to resognise someone’s status on the capacity of Don Quixote.

Alpha, During my days in Yerevan, the popular though in the caffees was that what is being delivered to us as an infamous qutoe from Khachatur Abovyan was a falsification. THe allegation was that he, in reality, has said: "Anidzvi en shat@, vor Rusi anidzial vot@ mtav hayots yerkir@..." Just a comment to second on your train of thought.

Received by email: WHOSE INTERESTS DO ARMENIAN OLIGARCHS SERVE? By Richard Giragosian In the latest sign of the prominent role of the wealthy and well connected in Armenian politics, Russian-based Armenian millionaire businessman Ara Abramian opened a constituent meeting of the World Armenian Organization (WAO) on 6 October in Moscow. With both Russian President Vladimir Putin and Armenian President Robert Kocharian in attendance, the event raises new questions over the role of the Armenian oligarchs. The new organization established by Abramian, who is also chairman of the Union of Armenians of Russia, seeks to "promote national unity, strengthen Armenian statehood, and advocate issues of concern" on behalf of the global Armenian diaspora. Demonstrating the global nature of the Armenian diaspora, representatives from some 138 communities and organizations from 52 countries attended the Moscow meeting. With over 2.5 million ethnic Armenians, Russia has the largest segment of the worldwide Armenian diaspora. Mirroring the strategic relationship between Armenia and Russia, Russian-Armenians have traditionally enjoyed an influential role in Russian politics that has only been enhanced during the Putin administration. That influence was reflected by President Putin's participation and the presence of Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov and Moscow Mayor Yurii Luzhkov at the congress. The formation of this ambitious global organization under such high-profile Russian tutelage has a much broader significance, however, with implications well beyond the confines of the Russian-Armenian diaspora. Specifically, the creation of the WAO signals a new phase in the increasingly assertive Russian strategy of "patrimonial power" over its Armenian client state. The utility of this new organization for Russian strategy stems less from its creation but more with its creator. The impressive display of Russian backing for Abramian and his new organization does not necessarily reflect Moscow's recognition of any real significance of the WAO as such, however. For Moscow, it is by playing the role of pliant tycoon that Abramian can best serve Russian interests in Armenia. The emergence of Abramian as leader of the Russian-Armenian community was clearly no accident, and his current effort to leverage his wealth and ties to the Moscow elite into a broader role within the Armenian diaspora serves both his and his patrons' interests. Despite the facade of the pan-Armenian nationalism, the longer-term goal for both lies in Armenia and not with the Armenian diaspora. In this way, Abramian has emerged as the latest tool for the Russian strategic reassertion of influence and power in the South Caucasus. To date, this Russian reassertion has been very successful, with substantial gains made throughout the South Caucasus. Putin engineered an important improvement of relations with Azerbaijan over the past two years, repositioning Russia well before the current handover of presidential power in Azerbaijan from Heidar Aliyev to his son Ilham. (President Putin was one of the first foreign leaders to congratulate Ilham Aliyev on his 15 October presidential-election triumph.) There has also been a substantial increase in pressure on beleaguered Georgia, culminating in the acquisition of the country's energy distribution network by Russia's Unified Energy Systems (EES). And in Armenia, structural dependence on Russia has become so deep that Russia now controls 90 percent of the Armenian energy sector, including management of its sole nuclear-power plant, as well as many of the country's most important strategic enterprises. Abramian is not, moreover, the first wealthy Moscow-based Armenian to be selected as an instrument of Russian influence. Three years ago, Moscow backed a campaign by Russian-Armenian oligarch Arkadii Vartanian to mobilize Armenian public opinion against President Kocharian at a time when Moscow was simultaneously openly seeking a rapprochement with Baku. Vartanian's campaign culminated in a march by some 10,000 people on the presidential palace in October 2000, which served as the pretext for his arrest. But the affair ended in a covert compromise by the Armenian government with Vartanian quietly returning to Russia. If ethnic Armenian oligarchs with Russian passports can be coopted by Russia to exert pressure on the Armenian government, the homegrown, native oligarchs pose their own threat to state authority, chiefly through their infiltration of the state apparatus and the manipulation of the country's incipient network of petty corruption. Even more distressing, these native oligarchs have increased their influence by virtue of their representation in the recently elected Armenian parliament. More than two dozen of the country's most well-known millionaire businessmen, some of them notorious for their ties to the murkier Russian elites and generally known to be supportive of the government, secured seats in the new parliament. Indeed, almost half of all newly elected parliamentarians have links to Armenia's small wealthy economic elite, although most do not share the notorious reputations of the more flamboyant oligarchs. Ironically, the rise of the native oligarchs in Armenia has not manifested a traditional "competition of elites," but rather in an interesting "cooperation of elites" based on the mutual interests of oligarchs and government. Although this cooperation of elites operates well within the parameters of democratic institutions and practice, it is nevertheless marked by a struggle for control over the country's limited resource base and economic assets. The next stage of Armenia's privatization program could see a competition for resources between the homegrown oligarchs and the holding company Abramian plans to take advantage of investment opportunities in both Russia and Armenia. In that case, the Armenian leadership could find itself constrained to make major economic concessions to its oligarchs to induce them to acquire assets that would otherwise be snapped up by Abramian's circle of investors.

Alpha, Armenia obviously needs new sources of power and gas. No question about it. However, it has to be understood that the availability of old or new NPP does not make that source of power independent of the neighbors. The uranium can be imported to Armenia only from Russia, and each time the plant needs to be refueled, Russia twists Armenia's hands to the degree of putting her on her knees. The fact of the Armenian Nuclear plant being a threat to the US security is a superficial argument. Iran will have its own nuclear plants and will get uranium from Russia. Armenia has nothing to deliver to Iran in this sense. As to the foreign policy of Armenia in the last several years, I have no arguments with you. The fact of the matter is that in the last several years Armenia has had no foreign policy. As to the last year’s allegations of the US of Armenia supplying whatever "goods" to "terrorist" states, that allegation was not totally baseless. Only I think it was not related to Iran but Syria and it was not related to the nuclear substances, while Armenian government officials were serving the will of their “masters.” As to the momentum with the Iranian gas pipeline deal, I hear about it for 10 years, now. I'll believe it when I see it. Sorry, I am tired to go into further details today. P.S. And if to think carefully of it, when the US claims that the Armenian nuclear plants is a "threat to US National Security," assuming that the statement does indeed trace to the US Government, it is a statement about Russia not Armenia.

Armenian Nuclear power plant has lost its positive strategic significance for Armenia. Even worse, it has become one of the primary instruments in the hands of Russia to control the political process in Armenia. In two words, it is the primary instrument of the re-colonization of Armenia. It is in the best interests of Armenia to shut it down – assuming that replacement can be brought together before the shutdown. The plant is located at the edge of a very dangerous tectonic fault. It has always been there and it has not changed. It is true that it is deemed safe from the point of view of radioactive leaks and is equipped with the safest Russian nuclear reactor on the territory of the former USSR - due to the American and European financial assistance. But that is only relatively small part of the picture. This issue is the highest priory problem of the independence of Armenia - to diversify its sources of her energy supply. Currently, the entire energy supply of Armenia trace to the same origin. The requests of the shutdown of the plant, which effective this year have been seconded by the European Union, is the best opportunity for Armenia to negotiate a gas pipeline deal with Iran with a perspective of continuing it to much starved of natural gas resources European Union countries through Georgia, meanwhile resolving significant problems of political and economic importance for the future of Armenia. Years ago, this opportunity was squandered by the then prime-minister Bagratyan due to his short-sightedness, as visionary as he has been in his overall policies. Furthermore, it is estimated by the experts that to maintain the Armenian Nuclear plant at the level of acceptably necessary security in the next 15 years, approximately $1 billion has to be dumped into such venture. Only an idiot would go for such pathological decision - not that we don't have enough of them. With such an amount Armenia can resolve the issue of building a gas pipeline and a natural gas fired power plant (or few of them) in order to substitute the nuclear plant, potentially extracting transportation and other tariffs from other countries. In fact, the issue is much deeper and not a subject for Internet discussions. To summarize, yes, it is extremely necessary to shutdown the Armenian nuclear plant with a condition of bringing to life the above mentioned alternative program. The only enemy of such meaningful and necessary development of Armenia is Russia. The overcoming of the Russian resistance would require substantial effort on a very high international level. But so that anything of the kind may succeed, Armenian government has to pursue it as an item of the highest priority of Armenia’s foreign policy. However, as Steve once coined, with the type of Armenian leadership we have, we can only hope for the best but expect the worst. The "enlightened" on the subject with superficial mantras Armenians that we may face when contemplating on this subject may turn to be not much preferable than some government officials.

The hierarchy of the Armenian Church is as follows (correct me if I missed something): Sarkavag, Qahana, Vardabed, Episkopos, Arqepiskopos, Katoghikos. Sarkavag and Qahana can marry. The rest of them, as it stands currently, cannot marry. However, this rulling is something symptomatic of the last 40-50 years only. The well known Katholikos, Khrimyan Hairik, for example, was married. Katoghikos Gevork (who was murdered by the order of Stalin), has consecrated several married men into the ranks of Bishop. Basically, this inconsistent with the history of the inconsistent history of the Armenian Church practice has been applied since the rain of Katholikos Vazgen I. Furthermore, prior to mid 11th century, celibacy has not been practiced in the Armenian Church, whatsoever. Furthermore, traditionally, the highest and the most important rank in the Armenian Church has been Qahana, all the “higher” titles constituting either an honorary title (such as Kathoghikos) or “academic” titles (such as Vardabed.) In general, the structure of the Armenian Church is that of enormous controversies and violations of the charter of the Armenian Church itself.

Yes, thanks Sip. The precise address is http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniarepor...C79C367A678.ASP .

Scholars Protest Planned Church Takeover Of Their Building By Gayane Danielian Several dozen state-employed scholars demonstrated Monday against highly controversial government plans to hand over their historically famous building in central Yerevan to the head of the Armenian Apostolic Church who wants to build a new official residence in its place. The protesters, who work for two research institutes of the Armenian National Academy of Sciences specializing in linguistics and economics, accused Catholicos Garegin II of extravagance and vowed to defy eviction orders from the government. “We will not keep silent,” Lavrenti Hovannisian, deputy director of the Hrachya Acharian Linguistic Institute, told RFE/RL. “We can work anywhere, but we just want the state to preserve this building as a scientific institution.” Referring to the quasi-official church, Hovannisian said: “They could support a hundred hungry families with that money.” “Having two church headquarters in a small country like this is too much,” agreed another protester. The government has already decided to transfer the property to the church free of charge after a request from Garegin. The two institutes’ staff wrote to Prime Minister Andranik Markarian last week, asking him to reverse the decision. In a separate move, their directors requested an audience with the Catholicos, hoping to convince him to reconsider his plans. However, the latter has not yet agreed to meet with them. Like most of his predecessors, Garegin is based in Echmiadzin, a town 25 kilometers west of the Armenian capital. He reportedly intends to tear down the building to free up space for his second residence. The plan has met strong resistance from academic circles who view it as a further blow to Armenian science which has been hamstrung by an acute lack of state funding since the Soviet collapse. The building served as the headquarters of the Armenian Academy of Sciences when it was set up in 1943 and is also seen by many as a historical monument. The protesters were particularly furious with Fadey Sargsian, the elderly chairman of the Academy who has rubber-stamped the government decision. “In any civilized country, it would be impossible to demolish an Academy building and give its land to the church,” Hovannisian said. “This is just as dangerous as the destruction of churches in the 1920s and 1930s.” Incidentally, the building in question had been constructed in the place of a medieval Armenian church complex demolished by Soviet Armenia’s government in the 1920s. Only one of its chapels survived Soviet rule. Garegin apparently wants to incorporate it into his would-be Yerevan compound. Several other old churches in Yerevan also faced destruction at the time to make room for new secular buildings. Among them is the city’s largest and most popular movie theater. The Armenian Church, which now enjoys government patronage after decades of Soviet persecution, has not yet reacted to the potentially damaging controversy. www.armenianliberty.com

I don't think there is any rift here.

իմ նման

Because he is another pathetic you know what, preying on idiots, mentally handicap or schizophrenic people...