hagopn

Յովհաննես, Եղբայր, Ինձ սխալ հասկըցար։ The Wurm ice age period started approximately 40,000 years ago and ended approximately 13,000 to 10,000 years ago, depending on location. The Mammoth became mostly extinct except for a few cold climate pockets in Asia at about that period, and the quite sophisticated the cave cultures of southern France exemplified by the Dordogne and Chauvet caves ended perhaps in the 40,000 to 30,000 year period. The opinion of many is that large migrations back to the east took place. Asia Minor and especially the Armenian Plateau were warmer and habitable regions that also offered security from many elements due to the topography. The neolithic period saw light in this era, an era that also saw Gobekli Tepe in addition to a very dense rock carving presence/culture that might very well be the ancestor of the later Mesopotamian/Ubbayid and the Kur-Arax (present day eastern Armenia and Artsakh, coincidentally) cultures. This is the period I am talking about.

Hovaness, as far as Sumerian, that's a tough call. Most words attributed to Sumerian were done so using the post Babylonian, SUmerian revival period, which was already a late period where Sumerian was corrupted, or, perhaps, the Akkadian phonetic reading is completely wrong and that we know little or nothing of the Sumerian language in actuality. Regardless, no one wants to wake up the Monkey in the larger academic world. Short answer, I don't know if Sumerian is Armenian related or not, but there are certainly tantalizing clues that Sumerian culture and vocabulary were heavily influenced by Armenian culture and language.

Arpa, he was certainly not aware of Avestani and its distinction from Pahlavi and Old Persian. He was also completely unaware of the absence of numerous Avestani terms in Old Persian, which is surprisingly something that would have bothered a more scrutinzing scholar. Hovik Nersesian, howevever, was an expert in the old Avestani, the Zand Avesta dialect, Pahlavi, Old Persian. His conclusion was that the Avesta, first of all, had Armenian origins, and the avalanche begins from there. "From Pahlavi" is totally and absolutely inaccurate, but is somehow the dominant theme in the Monkey School of Ajarian whose course was set by Hubschmann, more so than Meillet. Meillet at least was more open to suggestions that Armenian was indeed a more influential language in the other direction than generally believed. The reality changes drastically once you read Nersesian's treatment of the Parthian/Sassanian pantheon. You quickly realize that the Parthians borrowed much more from Armenians originally than realized.

I don't know much about the Hurrian language directly, only the few scant words mentioned by Armenologists. Gavoukjian didn't think that Armenian and Hurrian were related and even took S. Kramer's and I. Gelb's tentative views that somehow the Hurrian language is a relative of Finno-Magyar-Ugric, which is unprovable and probably not correct. I have no way of veryfing regardless. I found a much more comprehensive and accurate Sumerian dictionary here http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd1/nepsd-frame.html The one you posted above seems like a melange of early Babylonian and late Lagash period Sumerian, which was already supposedly saturated with Amoritic vocabulary. Bit for home? Sounds like it is not original Sumerian. The only Armenian link candiate at the page you posted is Abomination = ANZILLU. I have always been a skeptic of the "U" suffix they tack on to everything from all cuneiform writings. Anzillu sounds close to Anitzyal.

Haha, Turks give me a headache, seriously. The first source I had on this topic of the Sumero-Armenian link was Raphael Ishkhanian, someone the Monkeys Staring At The Banana considered "too conroversial a figure to allow to exist peacefully," someone the Soviet authorities had apparrently put under house arrest for his "radical natioinalist views." Apparently saying that ARmenians were always ARmenians is a "radical concept," but Monkeys will be Monkeys. THen I was given a book by Martiros Gavoukjian entitled Armenia, Subartu, and Sumer. Fascinating set of ideas which were dimissed by the Monkeys as "nationalist mysticism." Apparently seeing "saedhsyuo" to be the ancestor of "aj" is not mystical. If you know any real sources of actual and honest comparisons online, please let me know.

I don't think they had any self-identification of the sort we have today. The concept of nationality unity, political groupings, borders, and so on were non-existent and only became necessary when the Akkadian aggressions, a culmination of Sumerian "literacy" really, began its onslaught into Armenia and other territories. Drohumner@ mishd al yeghadz en. You have a village that grows in size. THe chief dies and leaves his land to his sons, or daughers, depending on the patrilienal or matrilinial dominance model. The sons then apportion the land and annex additional territory during this vast wilderness period. As populations increase, land gets more scarce, state-like political models may or may not begin to emerge, but certainly migration begins for new land for, say, the younger son and generations. The natural consquence is the emergence of newer tribal identities, and hence the phenomenon of language families. The national nomenclature of Armenian, German (probably the same name, by the way) and so on is a later phenomenon where politically centralized states with professional militaries become the norm due to the Akkadian initiative that started the game in the first place. This does not mean that the cultures that eventually became what we are were not already developed at some advanced enough stage to have an identity. Mythologies clearly indicate that the case was precisely that Armenians did havce a consciousness of a tribal-national past that defies the rules of present day politics, but somewhat reminisces the Celtic model of the pre-Roman occupation periods.

Hovaness, The Wurm glacial period is a debated item, but is a reason given for the Frobenian "eastward migration" theory where a large swath of the population of the Franco-Germanic basin emigrated to the east in the aproximately 40000 year mark. Meanwhile, the Anatolian expanse and Armenian Plateau were green and warm. THen, as the Wurm ice age retreated, the populations who had grown in size in the east, Asia Minor and more so in the Armenian Plateau, began migrating back west again. I don't doubt that these peoples retained memories of former domiciles and hunting grounds and were seeking movement based on primarily nutritional needs. I also have little doubt that they had already developed sophisticated enough culture to retain long term memory, to have elaborate mythologies, which in turn would require complex language able to encompass and convey these abstract concepts. We make a grave error in thinking that sophisticated life began in Sumer with the Cuneiform. Some would argue the reverse, that a spiritual and intellectual decline began during the literacy drive, which ironically was eventuallly dominated by the materialist whims and needs of the merchants and usurers to control wealth, human lives, and trade.

Sorry, Arpa. I'm typing on a computer at a location that doesn't allow me to load Armenian unicode fonts.

Milionavor darva masin che khosk@. Hayasdan@ unetzav, @sd abatsuytsnerun, arachin Nor Kare Tar@, gazmagerbvadz kyughadndesutyan u yergrakordzutyan arajin abatsuytsner@. Shan @ndelatsum@ u Shan hed gabvadz gron u taghman araroghutyun. Shan@ @ndelatsum@ part ashkhatanq er vor tuyl dvav kisherayin vakheren azad abril u tseragayin kyughadndesutyamb spaghil. Hayasdan@ yev mod shrchagayq yevs unetsav hnakuyn Bghintsi Tar u arajin Yergatya Tar. Menq miayn bedk uninq modavorabes 14000 dari yertal u desnel vor gar medz zarkatsum tebi kaghakagirt kyanq, payts aveli Confederate modelov. Getronatsadz bedutyun chigar. Bedk@ chigar. Havanapar @nthanur azkayin inqnutyan harts@ zud ynetatranq e u anhavanagan, payts azkaktsagan gab@ @llal@ @nthanur pnaghcutyan mej shad havanagan er. Yes g'gardzem vor menq uneyinq, shad hinuts, Celteru nman azka-kaghakagan model.

Arten kidenk vor 50000 dari araj pavagan zarkatsadz arvest yev gron gar. Dordogne yev Chauvet karayrner@ past en. Ayo, yes g'gardzem vor nakhalezu, pavaganin zarkatadz, koyutyun uner. Hayeren@, avelin, uni pazmativ nostratic, pnadzin, pnutyan hed ughigh gab unetzogh, parrabashar. Yev hayasdani zhayrabadgerayin kanag@ ahreli medz yev khid e, vor gabatsutse hin zarkatsum, patzi Gobekli Tepe-i 14000 amya medz dajarayin complex@.

Ajarian@ nuynkan heravor Hubschmannin vra himnelov ir skspnagan pul@ voroshadz e Gabign u Banani tez. Yes arten hamozvadz em vor hagarag ir medz ashkhatankin hateb unetsats harkankis, terutyunner@ kidagan oren annereli en.

"zarkatsum" parrn al haraperagan e, anshusht. Dvyal araragayi der@ g'voroshe, iprev ganon, ayd arargayi anun@. orinag yergrakordzutyan mej kordzadzvogh@ arargayi anun@ bidi nakh yev araj yergrakordzutyamb zpaghvogh@ u arajtimutyun unetsogh@ bidi voroshe. Yevs meg orinag, Im gardzikovs, Sumererenin antzer e Agar parr@ hayerenen, yev voch te hagarag ughutyamb.

Payts DZHGHOL kdar mer lezvi mech yerpek, voyeve meg degh? Barzabes shad terutyunnerov kidutyun e, hagarag vor iskabes gan shad agnhayd @nthanrutyunner H-YE lezva@ndaniki antamnerun mej. Yes ghavadam vor hayeru heravor yev hnakuyn kaght@ sovoragan yerevuyt er hed Sarutsyal Tar@ avardelis. Basque-Haygagan gab@ shad havanagan e im gardzikov, yev yertalen aveli hamozvadz em vor jisht gardzik e.

Yes hamadzayn shad IE hamemadagan parareu hed, bayts bntel te "mortsadz enq ays gam ayn" tetevsolig yev tuyl "hamemadutyunner"u himki vra, orinag Saedhyo yev Aj, indzi chi hamozer jisht hasgenank Irar -- Qu arabereni kidlikner@ misht arzhekavor en indz hamar. Ayo, Aniv@ ipr te IE (HE) che @sd Ajarianin. Isg hartsutser es te Ajarian, inchkan al lav "technicos" er lezvabanutyan mej, isg inchqan lav mardapan, yergrapan, yergragordzapan, ashkharakraked, kakhakaked, hneapan, kam badmapan er? Kider, orinag, hnakuyn hay kaghti masin? Inchqan lav Basqueren kider? Inchkan lav Sumereren gam Akkaderen kider? Inch kider academiai kaghakanutyan masin? Inchkan uzh uner yete nuyn isk hasgenar?

Hovhaness, meg had al tepk badmem im lezvabanutyan tasakhosneren megun hed yeghadz: Portzetsnq aniv parr@ voroshel morphological tzevov. Hasanq ayn yezragatsuyan vor Hayeren tzev@ betk e @lla, IE ganonnerov, Dzhghol. --

Lav, @senq te Saehdyo-n jisht armadn e Aj parrin. Che: Absudrizmi absurdizm antsel e iprev kidutyun: http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=7&pageNumber=251 Khntrem. Saehdyo, Droit, destra, Aj, anshusht irar het gab unin --

Nakh, Ajov yev Saahdyo-ov inch chen hamozadz yerpek. Yev darper IE lezuneru mech ajn u dzakh@ darper tzeverov gan. Animast vej, yev voch meg tzevov abatsuyuts che. Zud yentratrank.

Explain more.

The assumption that we forgot much of the IE vocabulary is merely an assumption with absolutely not a shred of proof. And the pronouns, numericals and ordinals, grammar and structural base, these in no way disprove a huge Armenian influence on the Iberian Peninsula. It is likely that the Basque connection predates the full development of the IE system, or it proves that the Armenian migrants fused with an already developed culture that resulted in the Basque civilization.

Writing system, you say? Who said we did not have symbolism and hieroglyphics? We in fact did. There are theories around the tarot symbology, the rock carvings. etc.. We even borrowed (back) the cuneiform base, which is likely also rooted in Armenian symbology exemplified in rock carvings. This is fact, unless you are still of the Trained Monkey persuasion who still think that "Urartu" (probable intentional mis-pronunciation) is not an ARmenian dynastic phase. Artak Movsesyan did a job in collecting the as of yet sporadic thoughts, sporadic entirely due to the Trained Monkey syndrome, on these probable writings systems that we have always had. Each era afforded and required its own level of literacy. Older writing systems were merely symbolic and were meant to be cryptic to the non-initiated, so the mythologers say, so why expect an alphabet for a people who didn't see the need for it? Is it not true that the priestly caste of the Celts, for example, were in fact discouraged from depending on their runic systems and were instead required to memorize their myths, legends, hymns and prayers? THe principal reason why the first organized writing system that yielded a semi-literate society came to be developed is accounting, the greatest driving force having been usury most likely, and the Sumerian scribe was a highly trained hatchet man whose primary occupation seems to have been initially to serve the temple, but later gradually more so the merchant/usurer. THe tablet records are overwhelmingly commercial/financial in nature for this reason. Ceasar's exploits into Gaul reveals his admiration of the Celts, the Druids in particular, who had sharper minds due to their illiteracy and committment to memory of huge amounts of information. Don't forget the phenomenon of the Literate Dolt. Literacy has its benefits, but also its fallacies. THe so-called literacy argument is null and void, without depth, without substance. It always has been, but we, as Trained Monkeys, have been taught not to venture into "risky territory," lest we be compared to the clownish culture called pan-turkism for whom even the Australian Aborigine is a lost Altaic tribe. ARmenians make no such claims! Armenians simple state the obvious: We are ancient, and we have been emigrating due to the forces of nature (as mentioned above) in the beginning and due to the unnatural forces of Imperialist politics in later stages. As I said: We are trained monkeys. On the domestic front, our principal "trainer" has been the Church, ironically, who has taught us and continues to teach us that Armenian civilization began with them despite testimony by the Church's own chronicler, Movses Khorenatsi, that we have indeed had a writing system that predates the Mashtotsian "reorganization" - the actual probable meaning of "horinel". The Persophiles and Hellenophiles in their turn also have even falsified primary sources in some cases to push forth the argument that ARmenians are 1) migrants, and 2) surely the younger of the cultures than the Persian or Hellenic, which is utter nonsense. Just read Robert Ellis' book without prejudice as a primer as to the record of migration. Naturally no historic records exist. Why would a simple agrarian people keep meticulous accounting records of their dealings? They were at the time living in an era where professional armies (super looting machines) did not yet exist, idea and history thieves were only minor bands of rejects, easily repelled. THe world was different. The bulk of Armenian migratory patterns predate history. Yet, in the post-CHristian era also you see a huge number of migrations to the banks of the Danube due to the Byzantine Faction's actions against the non-CHristian elements in Armenia, a civil war that apparently raged at least from the 6th century a.d. up to the fall of Ani, a time during which the Byzantine Faction was busy in the southwest clamping down on "heretics" while ignoring the influx of the turk vermin in the northeast. The semi-observant Aristakes Lazdivertstsi attests to this. The language root argument and the Basques: The Basques themselves see a connection! Yes, of course, they are probably a result of a fusion of native and migrant cultures, hence the distincnt as well as common vocabularies, but truly the Monkeys are trained to ignore the similarities, focus on the (lesser) differences, prove in their minds the disconnections, in order to feel comfort in the illusion that their banana is safe hanging from the ceiling.

Ah, the "rreelleejin of beess." I am alarmed by the great number of apologists for this sort of anti-Christian violence among our young, especially the ones brainwashed in the "social sciences". They are almost all Marxists, and they are almost all completely and stupefyingly ignorant about history. If you wonder from where this indifference toward the plight of Christians comes, look only at the Marxist indoctrination factories called universities, particularly the "humanities" departments. Take into consideration that the late carcass Christopher Hitchens, a long-time champion of anti-Christian activity, is a hero of this sort of impressionable manufactured atheist sort. Hitchens' anti-Christian attitudes are evident in his praise for Lenin and Stalin and seeing their "greatness" in the so-called modernization by way of murdering members of the clergy and pious lay folk. Hitchens said nothing less than Lenin is a great man because he murdered Christianity in the Russian Empire and brought advancement to "the people" - that ephemeral and abstract "the people" of Marxism that means nothing in the end except "sponges to squeeze", to quote Lenin the Hypocrite contradicting himself. it is in fact this same mindset, this same faction that is causing for the immobility of Christians in what should be Christian majority countries.

համայնքային պայքար կոչեցեալը միշտ զուտ թիւրիմացութիւն֊-գործիքն է։ Նոյն հազարամեայ խաղը՝ նոր բէմ, Երիտ «Թուրք»երու Փան-Իսլամիզմի նման։

Yervant, I agree with you 100%. Armenians have similar behavior to the Monkeys In The Cage And The Banana when it concerns their history, their pride, their contributions to civilization as a whole. See the Monkey/Banana experiment here http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg The story goes as such: Once upon a time, there was this truly resourceful but sedentary bunch who escaped the Ice Age, became more populous than their fellow cold weather Cro Magnonite/Neanderthalistic (mostly bone fraggy concoction bullshit - they were exactly as we were up to 100000s of years ago probably) brethren, and decided to setup shop as Neolithic agrarians. One advancement after another came such as control of fire, domestication of animals, etc., particularly the Dog, the animal which afforded these folks the ability to sleep at night and work during the day, that guardian against the dark dangers, that very animal which was buried with its master to "guide him safely to the Otherworld" beyond the grave. Indeed, Armenia saw this first, the burial of the Dog with its Master, a likely critical catalyst for the advancement of agrarian/sedentary life. This advancement resulted in a population boom, which in turn brought these folks in the Armenian Highlands (no Ice Age happened here around 13000 years ago, apparently) to an overpopulation crossroads circa 7th to 5th millennium b.c. Naturally, these folks, our ancestors, decided to emigrate and claim new settlements outside their original neolithic and Bronze Age homeland. Let's be satisfied with this proto-historic theorem for now. The interesting part of this tale is that possibly the north-west of the Balkan Peninsula is also another such "spoke" of the neolithic agrarian wheel, something that the author mentioned above, Robert Ellis, covers in his book THE ARMENIAN ORIGINS OF THE ETRUSCANS. With good reason, Ellis, among others, thought the Illyrians (and the Pelasgians, i.e. pre-Homeric pre-Hellenic residents of Greece, etc.) to have been also of the same "Thraco-Phrygian race of which Armenian is the last living remnant." I am sure that the title THE ARMENIAN ORIGINS OF THE ETRUSCANS must be a severe eyesore, indeed a log in the eye for the Trained Monkeys who surely will mock any mention of connections of distant cultures, ancient ones, with Armenians. As to the Indo-European argument. Please. Armenian has only about 10% affinity with the IE lexicon. Ajarian is ancient and half-meaningful history.

And, Arpa, I concur that Fishbook/Fishbait has destroyed true, serious, and permamently controlled/cataloged/archived dialog. People are pissing in the wind on Facebook, and perhaps that is the whole point. This forum is, in my experience, relatively the most pro-Armenian, and good work can be done here. My opinion is that the Armenian image is of utmost importance, a priority number 1 item. It directly affects the fate of our diasporas and our republic. Our enemies are relentless and systematic in their efforts at discrediting anything, ANYTHING Armenian except the negative, which is manufactured on a daily basis and injected into the minds of millions via the "not so Christian controlled" media, academia, and entertainment, macro information apparatus.

Well, Yervant, to bring to the fore another topic, as long as we as a population ignore the Masonic Pink Elephant in the room, we will be waiting for these sellouts we choose to call "leaders" to watch our backs. The fact is that everyone of these mongrels knows precisely what is going on, but they have consistently done nothing about it. I propose that we collect and catalog all these occurrences in the media and present a jointly composed paper of some scholarly caliber. Have one of our PhDs perhaps on this forum be a signatory and have it published in a scholar journal. A while back an attorney with the last name of Giragosian who was active in Armenian politics at that time tried to bring up the case of anti-Armenian patterns, but he was shot down and did not get support. Solid work needs to be done on this. Kim-Kimeh KAKdashian is not helping matters for the Armenian image, and the ANC is busy promoting her, like the idiots they are (in reference the Pink Elephant problem). Serious work needs to be done to reestablish a strong Armenian image that will gain us more political (and individual) clout. Currently, we're leaving things to chance.