hagopn

That, unfortunately, is not impressive--

Moorad is a very good man perhaps because of his religious leanings. I learned a lot from him during the olden listserve days.

This guy is becoming more and more impressive as time passes. Good for him!

That's a quirk. How in the world did this happen? Don't get me wrong. It's truly a good thing that high tech industry is growing there, making its comeback, but US military hardware?

Correction. Most Zionist organizations or affiliates work for, or at least favor, Turkey's and Azerbaijan's interests, and therefore Armenians react. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Arpa, this is bell-the-cat back in action, the same Steve Sim. I'm wondering if he's back to belittle Armenians yet some more, perhaps the daily dose of maligning nationalists, another dose of equating Turks with Armenians, or perhaps saying that Armenian academics are all Turklike. That is the standard anti-Armenian diet we've been waiting for, as much as we were looking forward to that Socratic hemlock diet.

I also like the double-headed jutak they are playing, the same instrument used by Jivani and Karintsi rooted musicians , The Pontus is influenced heavily by the Erzngan-Karin cultural belt, which was notoriously rich in musical traditions during the Bagratuni kingdom... and far beyond if the parasites ever lose control of that territory and we start properly researching the area..

Good find! 7/8 rhythm, (in common with Laz, and sometimes Pontic greeks). The singing is taptepadz, but it is a difficult tempo to sing in.

Excellent! I knew I could count you. Team work it is! --> Yervant, it is anonymous. Modern Turkish is extremely latinized not only in script, but its "modern" vocabulary. Perhaps Mustafa The Camel essentially had Hagop Debil-anchar (aysinkn Esh oghl eshek) replace most perso-arabic terms with latin terms. What is ճին? Իզ դատ արաբիկ ֆոր դիմը՞ն։

Yervant, Arpa is also on the right track. Yaman is used to mean "jarbig", cunning, but also to mean ruthless, remorseless, uncouth.

"You know it's bad when the GREEKS are calling you gay."

Man, I just write fast--, and you might just be right about the dialect, and it is entirely possible that these people did mistranscribe and sing incorrectly much of the words.. I also sourced this from another Armenian forum. The links were provided in their post. Yervant, Hamshentsi has more Grabarr elements to it, and it is borderline phonetically speaking between Eastern and Western. This one sounds more so western. intzi hamar lusnak yes merpipari tzerpipari cıhkerı, cıhkerı madanu ankin ag yes intzi varetz horomsimi, kayaneyi, şoğagati cami ceri cıhkeri, cıhkeri This above is definitely some sort of western Armenian, a bit localized, perhaps even distorted by these Kurds (which wouldn't be at all surprising), but definitely western Armenian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iW9u61_oKQQ https://eksisozluk.com/cin-elar--2255268 kına ari man ari, çin elar çin elar çin elarıs tamama, harıt kıdi dun are kurkencan, papkencan, halıs yahşı yaman a intzi hamar lusnak yes merpipari tzerpipari cıhkerı, cıhkerı madanu ankin ag yes intzi varetz horomsimi, kayaneyi, şoğagati cami ceri cıhkeri, cıhkeri ay dığa volor molor, çin elar çin elar, çin elarıs tamama, konimen kosim polor kurkencan, papkencan, halıs yahşı yaman a gabel yes kirman kodin merpipari tzerpipari cıhkeri, cıhkeri intz ces tohum kez modig intzi varetz horomsimi, kayaneyi, şoğagati cami ceri cıhkeri, cıhkeri mi pahir serıs tu yes, çin elar çin elar, çin elarıs tamama araçın serıs tu yes kurkencan, papkencan, halıs yahşı yaman a aherp arı yerp kıdar merpipari tzerpipari cıhkeri, cıhkeri kılhin lihşen ajva vah intzi varetz horomsimi, kayaneyi, şoğagati cami ceri cıhkeri, cıhkeri yes modaj yem kocari, çin elar çin elar, çin elarıs tamama tu nişane modani kurkencan, papkencan, halıs yahşı yaman a mert zerıt ku can ahcig merpipari tzerpipari cıhkeri, cıhkeri imlalu vay can ahcig intzi varetz horomsimi, kayaneyi, şoğagati cami ceri cıhkeri, cıhkeri

When was that?

Dear friend, I am well aware of the troubles Armenians faced in the San Joaquin valley. One of the stories I recall is from the Hovanissian family, of the famed historian and his family, from the Depression era. One important detail is the Armenian ability to prepare for the worst in the event of disasters such as this sort of food shortage or outright famine. The story went that the general population resented the Armenians for having large quantities of preserves, which, as I have written previously, the ARmenians are absolute experts at doing, preparing long term preserve - even bread - that lasts through the Winter (in Armenia herself) or the Great Depression in the case of the San Joaquin Valley. The Armenian "maran"*** is notoriously well stocked in today's village in Armenia as well, and this might have been one reason that the Armenian population during the Blockade from 1991 to 1994, particularly the "freezing years" of 92-93, in addition to overfishing the lakes in Armenia for their protein needs, were not suffering from widespread famine. ***(մառան = pantry, but not really, more like a huge storehouse, sometimes underground, with the stored items in a large storage container or multiple containers of a variety of sorts, suspended from the ceiling to avoid direct contact with the surrounding storage room. Fascinating technology, really)

I also refuse to accept the notion that Sayat Nova was a continuation or result of, or even associated with, this trend. Paruyr Sevak insists that there is a link and continuation, and I say merely exposure and sourcing of ideas. Sevak's earlier writings on the topic didn't offer evidence, only assumptions, and for this reason he retired the idea entirely and did not mention it in his main Sayat Nova thesis. As far as I can tell, it is simply widespread myth.

This posting is of fascination to me for a variety of reasons, but not due to the poetry itself. Quchak is certainly not one I respect nor enjoy, honestly, except for some rare moments of true spirituality that reflect an older mythological layer manifesting itself. His imagery of water as the metaphor for the spiritual is of more value if even in a single verse, than all his boorish ottomanized quasi-pornographic rubbish. His (or, as Abeghian would say, "the trend", an anthropomorphic "trend") overall a sure sign of a pederastic/pedophiliac cultural milieu that objectifies women, a culture of rape and disrespect, of dehumanization and toxification of relations. It is the equivalent to Hafez' (who also was an avid pederast) "put a rose on her breast upon defilement" (i.e., give the gift of a rose after you finish with the rape) principle, typically muslim "shariat" in character, a culture of total and utter hypocrisy encapsulated in poetry. It's not surprising that people are now taught that "it was always this way, and only those bad old Christianos forbade us and kept us from our libido and our fulfillment, that is until Saint Sigmund came into the picture with that wonderful Anal based theory." Lots and lots of free prostitutes become magically available. I was in Vegas a few days ago, and, let me tell you, it is a dream for the pederast to be there. (i.e. prostitution advertisement on large trucks, or cards with sexual organs and a phone number for some "services" passed around to passers by - to preteen children included - by mostly Mexican runners for hire, huge billboards of semi nude figures every where, etc.). Arpa, in case you missed it, this is exactly in line with the posting I did in 1994 about the pedophilia/pederasty practices in all conqueror cultures, all empires, with the singular exception of (at least officially, which is in doubt due to the Hellfire Club phenomenon as an indicator of what the "elite exemption" of the era consisted of, something which discouraged Calvin from trekking to England proper prior to that time frame) of the vast European colonial ones as well as the Byzantine empire. Christianity seems to have muffled the pedophiliac traditions. Your words above of "frustration that we have sterile, non-sexual poetry as the norm" tells me that you have accepted the Freudian "theory" of man's psyche. Freud, as a good author, Rushash Rshduny has written, is merely a Christian in Penitence who, however, avoids the moral implications and benefit of such penitence by instead committing to and then repenting on the guilt to one's ego alone. This is some serious fallacy in character that just has managed to make the world really insane. Sayat Nova, Harutyuan Saatyan, was a healthy eroticist in his own right, but one who didn't succumb to the low quasi-pornographic, ottomanized (in terms of poor imagery) and pederastic rants of the quchak "phenomenon." At the least the Persian traditions that his sourced from (although his musical content is most Armenian and hymnal in character, especially his arrhythmic improvisations) used imagery very skillfully, but I can imagine the climate under which the Quchaks came to be. Յը՜խ։

WHy are there multiple postings of this?

Still, after all this intelligent dialog, and there was very well written material (such as the epilog by Anonymouse above and other posts he made), the conclusion on my part is Armenians on Armenian forums avoid saying the most obvious: There is no such thing as "Armenian anti-semitism." There is, however, a reaction to Jewry's (if not the general Jewish population's) anti-Armenianism; Refer to post http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=46982&p=315414

Actually, I suggest that the title of this thread be changed. it is rather telling that this "Jews and Anti-Semitism" is the selected title. I would say that the person who started this thread is clearly baiting, making the customary attempt at agitating, a standard agent provocateur. That seems to be a frequent phenomenon on Armenian forums, where sometimes even a Turk or Azeri poses as an Armenian and starts blurting out Jewish hatred nonsense. I will tell you further as to why the title of this thread needs to change. Save for some petty and easily discredited fabrications by Azerbaijan of late (such as the Guba fiasco), for example, there is no record of actual discrimination or actions against Jews by any Armenian kingdom or state. "Armenian anti-semitism" is simply a non-topic. It does not exist. Even the eventual participation in the Wehrmacht by Drazdamat Kanayan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drastamat_Kanayan was entirely for the purpose of avoiding massacre of Armenians under the strangely broad ethnic cleansing program of Germany at the time, which also was targeting Czechs, Slovaks, and others deemed enemies of Uber Deustchland at the time. What does exist is an Armenian reaction to general Jewish Anti-Armenianism. Indeed, Armenians react to the actions of the state of Israel, AIPAC in the USA, the ADL, the various intellectuals and ideologues (such as the very founder of pan-Turkism, really, Vambery mentioned above), Turkish Republic figures, Young Turk party heads of Jewish ancestry, even the lion's share of holocaust authors, and the list goes on. These actions are nothing less than the endorsement of a fascist and anti-Armenian Turkish regime. In fact, not one, but two such regimes exist. The phenomenon of Georgian anti-Armenianism is also a curious one, in a not much less extreme form, which is perhaps not entirely due to Jewish involvement. Nevertheless, Israel's endorsement of Georgian interests also bleeds into the Javakhk issue, and Armenians notice this. Israel's endorsement and alliance with Azerbaijan also automatically impacts the Artsakh (unfortunately better known in its Russianized form of "Nagorno-Kharabkh") issue. Also, even though all anecdotal, and some real, instances of interaction with the general Jewish populations throughout the globe reveal general sympathy toward the Armenian cause, particularly genocide recognition, still the leading institutions of Jewry are against Armenian interests, often indirectly, but sometimes directly. However, to be fair, there is also the common issue of other ethnicities and nation-states, such as the OIC members - with the notable exception of Iran - who are also providing the no vote in Artsakh's recognition. Every state in Europe is also voting no on that issue, as well as every state in Latin America and North America. Part of this can be attributed to joint Jewish and Turkish lobbying efforts, as is the case in the USA, France, England, and elsewhere, but much of it is due to economic relations with Turkey, which in turn is a loop back to Israeli involvement in keeping Turkey a "NATO member" and ally, a welfare state, huge recipient of aid and arms support, a huge recipient of political, intelligence and strategic support from entities that, aside from the obvious Israel, clearly are heavily influenced in their regional foreign policy by Jewish as well as the resultant strength of Turkish lobbyism. It is a truism that much of the US financial support to Turkey takes a ricochet right back to PR efforts at Madison Avenue and lobbying efforts at Pennsylvanian Avenue. Turkish economic successes have direct relations to Jewish efforts in geopolitics in the region, both domestically and via foreign relations efforts by the Jewish influenced foreign offices of the various economic powers mentioned. But the most important source of Armenian resentment and reaction is absolutely the utter hypocrisy of it all in relation to Genocide versus Holocaust recognition. This is such an obvious and glaring case of hypocrisy, that to speak any more of it in detail would be truly redundant and insulting to the average Armenian's intelligence.

Fascinating. Are the various Hadith, schools of jurisprudence, roughly speaking, then, the equivalent to the Jewish talmudic tradition? Are you saying that the legalism of the Hadith is the groudwork for the Sharia, which in turn is a possible corruption of the original Muhammadan concept or "revelation" of Islam?

And truly thank you for your family's stories. I enjoy reading them very much. Are you thinking of writing and publishing?

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that he was a genuine Armenian and genuine good man, perhaps, as you say, rough on the edges sometimes, but a good man regardless. He definitely was a very talented man and portrayed Armenians in such a beautiful and positive manner. I consider him a national hero, no less. But he was no historian nor an authority on our legacy, but he certainly was an observant man, a compassionate man, who saw us the way we would like to see ourselves.

Item #4. Armin Vambery, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rmin_V%C3%A1mb%C3%A9ry in partnership, essentially, with a Tatar figurehead, clearly the figurehead, Ismail Bey Gasprinski. Vambery was the ideologue who concocted a "glorious Turkic empire" vision that still is the basis for Turkism. Even so-called leftists and progressives in Turkey are adherents of this false paradigm. A while back I had a long debate with a Turkish musicologist with regards to origins of musical instruments, and he was evoking "Gok Turk origins", clearly a fictitious concoction, of various instrument types due to the "shape of the (particularly stringed) instrument's acoustic body." He said, "don't worry. I am not a nationalist. You can speak freely with me." Then, as I started speaking freely, such as the likehood that Dravidian sources are better explanations for the non-Hittite origin instruments, and that there is much evidence to suggest this, he was in fumes! He adamantly denied the possibility of such a thing, despite existing genetic, linguistic evidence, and direct instrument examples that exist. To his credit, he didn't take the route of a typical facsist, who would have easily resorted to the ridiculous - and yet surprisingly mainstream - ruckus about "turkic origins of Sumerians." Regardless, the fact is that even leftists are saturated with Vamberian propaganda. http://www.zemarchus.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:-arminius-vambery-o-ismail-bey-gasprinski-&catid=2:2010-02-14-16-24-15&Itemid=16&lang=en Apparently the Russophobia (with regards to Imperial Russia) of the British Empire also fueled this movement. Also not a surprise due to an immense amount of background information that exists about this topic, but is, also not surprisingly, ignored by "the establishment".

Islam also encourages deception. Once majority Christian regions are now entirely Muslim dominated. A while back an author named Gevork Sulahian wrote about the intricacies of Islam and the mechanisms used to gain dominance in Armenia and Asia Minor (currently referred by the Turko-Tatars as a collective name of "Anatolia" as a means to erase Armenian presence in historiography), and his conclusion was grim; no possibility of coexistence, since the Islamic religion eventually aims to eradicate competitive religions, in whatever form it is in, Sharia, or not. Pan-Turkism, truly developed by a Budapest based Jew named Armin Vambery, a self-styled "ottomanologist", is the underlying ideology to the so-called Islamism as well. Both layers of political ideology of the current Turko-Tatar regimes, therefore, are genocidalist in nature.