sen_Vahan

Thanks , Domino, for the posts. Actually, the old question still remains - were Armenians in majority in some eastern vilayets? this is the key point. if according to turkish sources there were 2.500 000 Armenians then obviously in Van, Erzrum, Bitlis with the highest Arm populations they were in majority. And it seems that Patriarchat's figures are in fact correct. Vahan

THOTH, I agree with you and i also think that Patriarchate's figures are correct not because they are made by Armenians but also for one other reason: Patriarchates everywhere not only in Turkey always took into account the whole number of people including new-born children. But I am not sure that Turks did the same and i would like to know about that. Vahan

Domino, " thanks for defending me (or admonishing sen vahan about his style). vahan, i am not greatly offended by your style, but Domino is right when he says that you won't get very far in establishing dialogue with it." OK, guys, I appreciate that, and i will follow Domino's suggestion to give facts about the things i was saying. Actually, I am sure you all know these facts and since I came late to this forum I even think you have already discussed most of it. I will later write why I am thinking it is not going to help, i mean giving the facts about that particular subject - the Armenian population in eastern vilayets. In well-known Permanent Peoples' Tribunal (the one founded by Bertrand Russel) Yves Ternon in his "Report on the Genocide of the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire,1915-1916" says: "The official Ottoman census of 1914, for example, gives the size of the Armenian population as 1 295 000, while the statistics of the Patriarchate give a figure of 2 100 000, and foreign publications with NO WAY OF CHECKING THE FIGURES (ENL. by me) fall somewhere between these two extremes ACCORDING TO THEIR SYMPATHIES (ENL. by me) It is reasonable to assume that Ottoman civil servants had been ordered to trim down the census figures and that the Armenian Patriarchate in Constantinople which was responsible for the defence of the community's interests under the Sublime Porte, had a tendency to exaggerate the figures..." In my opinion, the author is right about European sources - they had no way of checking the figures, they could only take some from "the middle of nowhere".For example, I am anxious to know where did Toynbee take the number 1 800 000 from? It seems that he just took the average and plus/minus. So, we have in fact two sources - the Turkish first and the Armenian second. 1 295000 and 2100000, the difference is ~ 1.7 times! Being a physicist I am getting into trouble when I see such a difference in the same thing. And there is no way of objectivity, in my point of view, and what we consider to be right really depends on the symphaties. Unfortunately, one cannot check the number of people who are not alive now. Now a little bit of another fact that you may consider to be not serious, but anyway. All my ancestors starting with my father's grandfather were from Van. A least the family tree gives an information up to the end of 15th century.(without any exaggeration) My father's grandfather left Van with his family in 19th century during the atrocities started in Hamid's period. He went to Russian Armenia along with many other families from Van. Being a student in erevan my father was very interested in the problem of Genocide and he obviously had many talks with his grandfather. Some results 1) We were in good relations with Turks,2) We were rich and prosperous, 3) The majority of inhabitants in Van were Armenians but there were also Turks Kurds, and there were Assyrian villages around. 4) When we had some problems they were mainly with Kurds, 5) Erzurum had the second largest Armenian population, 6) Something terrible happened in Turkey when Hamid became the sultan, many people were killed and we lost a lot of cultural monuments... 7) Lots of Armenians left Van, Erzurum, some went to Russian Armenia others to Cilicia or to the capitol and some found a way to migrate to European countries. So by 1914 the Armenian population was already decreased. I do not think he was exaggerating beacuse he really knew a lot about the community being an active member of that. Vahan

Where have I shown you my way of thinking ? You show me your responce,Domino, but it does not mean that I was writing it with a negative tone in order to insult Ali. No way! "You talk about Ali changing the subject, then you talk about return of land... what this has to do with the recognition ?" First of all, I am not talking about the return of land I am just asking which means I want to know his opinion. Second, I think Ali knows much more about the subject than I do but everybody has its own interests except the facts alone. Third, recognition for the Turkish state has something to do with the lands and Turks are far more careful and diplomatic in in this problem. I feel that Ali is a real patriot of his country and he probably knows what I mean. I would like to know his opinion. "This person came here to discuss, he may have wrong informations it is to you to show that they are wrong, it is not by calling something trash that it show that you have a point. " In general you are right,Domino, but not in particular. Pay attention to what I am calling trash. May I ask you whether you agree with that? In my opinion, to have progressive and good dialogue we should try to improove the topic but not just refer to some traditional literature that we as well as many Turks know to be trash. (Here I mean the Armenian trash too which is not less than the Turkish) There is too much useless stuff now (Arm&Turkish) in literature, relations. But shouldn't we throw them away in order to understand each other better? Regards, Vahan

Come on... I am not doing any generalization calling that a Turkish garbage. And I guess you know what I mean by that. And Ali has nothing to do with it. I think that it is a garbage and we should not refer to that any more as a literature source for genocide or our relations (especially as a historical source). And please do not show me your way of thinking, I can always apologise if it is necessary. Vahan

Hard? What do you mean? "Veshi nado nazivat' svoimi imenami", as Russians say. Do you agree that Ali nothing to do with the things I wrote? but he is the only person we have the dialogue with. Vahan

"i know it was more than half a million, i was just quoting the official stuff." Right. And you probably know that Armenians were in a minority according to the same official stuff. But indeed they were not. Good progress. So then, Armenians were in majority in some vilayets by the 19th century, there was a massacre (with more that half million people killed), historical and religious monuments were mainly distroyed by the Government's order, the country(eastern vilayets) was "cleaned" (I mean no more Armenians). Moreover, what is perfect is that you recognise that those territories were Armenian although were taken from Byzantians. All right, then let me ask why the present Armenia does not have the chance to take back those some vilayets? I guess just because the official Turkey will not do that step - nobody would do. OK, and all that Turkish garbage in the literature about Armenia's history and Armenians in general does not make any sense. Hagarag, there was always an influence of the Imperors on the Armenia in general, including the church. But those little differencies in theology beginning 5 or 6th century still remain. Monophysits (I am not sure it is the right name in English literature) - Armenians, Kopts, Ethyopians, had and have some theological differencies comparing with the Orthodoxy, but these are not judaic. Relations with Georgians after Soviet's collapse got worse. But do not forget that even before the revolution in Russia Tiflis was one of the biggest Armenian cultural centers. And there were some inter-national merrages. Talking to ARmenians from Lebanon I do not hear anything negative. But maybe they just do not like talking about that. Regards, Vahan

The popular name Vardges has a Persian origin. As far as I remember (I am not sure though) "ges" means "poch"(tail, wing) and "vard" means something else(to my mind it is "katu"(cat).Again I do not remember exactly). I thought that might help. Vahan

" Did anyone here realize that love kills, but hate perpetuates a minority population?" obviously we do not, because we are merely gravediggers from the Ararat Valley. " Here in America there are many Turks who have married Northern European descended Americans. Many Turks have converted to Christianity. Thus, in a few generations they will disappear." So, what's your point? " Despite the fact that many Armenians will disagree with the DNA studies until their death-bed, many Armenian Jews assimilated into the Armenian genepool. " Good theory. Since its supporters have arguments like "DNA studies is the-state-of-the-art ... " or a similar crap, consequently one should count on that, the theory will have no future. "The original Armenian Church was very Judaic in belief and liturgical practices." Well, I would not like to address third class discussion about the Armenian church, but your generalization is irrelevant. " Books have been written on how Judaic were Armenian liturgical practices and church music." Oh, dearest, your "vast knowledge" of church music prevents you probably to listen to it.By the way, why did you decide to write about that in this topic? "The Byzantines constantly accused the Armenians of Judaizing Christianity. In this accepting Armenian atmosphere, Jews disappeared through assimilation." Compare the ortodox and armenian christianity and try to find differences. Emphasize the judaic origin of theology and liturgy. maybe after that you will correct yourself. " Had it not been for the earlier massacres of Armenians and the Genocide, Armenians in Turkey would have eventually disappeared. If Turkey ever became a truly democratic nation, the Armenans would have eventually disappeared through assimilation." How about the Armenians in Lebanon or Georgia?

Ali, People living in modern Armenia (many of them)would go to Anatolia if they had the chance. Those in the US or France obviously would not.(too much trouble) If Turkey and Armenia open the border and let people move easily then that would not be a problem. I think the best thing the Turkish state might do would be the constraction of railway to Armenia and Azerbaijan, investments to Armenia's economy and wise immigration policy. Regards, Vahan

Exactly, Marx changed the political map of the world. Now, how many people red him: Marxism was one of the most important subjects at all the Soviet Universities and Institutions of Education. I cannot say how many red him but at least much more than Rafii, Paronyan, Otyan,...... taken all together. They helped us in our understanding of what? What can the close-minded Armenian understand with the help of narrow-minded national intelligents? All those intelligents were the product of Armenianism (sorry for the plagiarism) and the only thing they wrote about (I am again emphasizing it) was Armenia/ns. I guess here is the reason why a non-Armenian doesn't read them. We are helpless (I mean young people) in that sense, because all our writers and philosophers could and can do is critisizing and sour-cream patriotism. Unfortunately, none tried " to change the political map ". Of course, we are all close-minded, losers, stupid but look at our intellectuals! Vahan

Whenever somebody tries to show something knowing in advance what the result should be, it turns out to be a useless stuff. If a researcher or a scientist is doing that then it's a complete shit.(about Kamuran Gürün's historical research ) And I can see why many Armenians do not believe ANY Turk writing about Armenia's history. Ali, Armenians in eastern provinces were not in a minority in the 19th century. I do not think that one should follow pseudo-scientific reports (such as above mentioned Kamuran Gürün's work) in order to find a constructive dialogue. The wise principle "devide-and-rule" might decrease the Armenian population in that provinces. We all I guess realize that but should we try to write a new history? Regards, Vahan

To Ara Baliozian/ How about the Armenians of Raffi, Paronyan, Otyan, Massikyan,...? The faith of all these writers was very similar to the faith of their nation. Yes, we are all close-minded, as many outsiders say, but so are these writers. No? Who knows today Raffi, Paronyan, Otyan,... except Armenians(some of us do not even know them)? Maybe they were thinking about the Armenians and Armenia too much? What was the subject for Raffi, for example?Armenia, its history. Being perhaps very intelligent he was writing only about the Armenians and Armenia. I am not sure that some non-Armenian would like them. And I do not know ANY non-Armenian who reads Raffi or Otyan. Really, who cares about them, about that "narrow-minded" intelligents caring only about own nation. And the problem is that they did it without any great love to the nation, to its spirit(or maybe they did?). That is why I am thinking that they as well as many modern Armenians like only the "idea of Armenia" but not the people. And I am asking you what one should expect from young people being educated on Raffi, Otyan, Massikyan? Many generations in Armenia were educated in such a way , so what? Can we say that at least one of the writers mentioned by you might be considered as "all-Armenian" (although they were writing only about Armenians), as Russians consider for example Pushkin? Vahan

Argikner jan, dzer bolori galik Marti 8 shnorhavor!!! Mish egek urax ev erganik! Egek sirvaz ev misht sirek! Hamburum em bolorid! El inch asem, mez el mi morazek... Vahan

That was a good news, Ali, congratulations! Amenayn barik em zankanum! Vahan

Twilight Bark, I think you misunderstood me a little bit. What you are saying is true but I guess my question was some kind of answer to what Ali Suat said. I can agree that in the Empire some Armenians killed Turks in some vilayets, but that was a responce to Hamid's regime. Asking "maybe it was vice versa" I just want to make sure that we and Ali Suat are talking about the same thing. Actually, we lump Armenians with other christians living in the Empire (at least I do it sometimes) because massacres were directed to them as well. Another thing is that one should be more careful about how different christian groups responded to the massacres. Anyway, I think not all the Turkish arguments are not serious. And we have to hold the apologist line of thinking in order to find the contact and the dialogue with Turks(they should do that as well). Vahan

It seems that this problem had no beginning. Armenians were massacring Turks in the end of 19th century and so did Turks at the same time. It is like kids game "you started first!". Was that the answer to Abdul Hamid's actions against Armenian population that Armenians themselves started to kill Turks? Or it was vice versa? Vahan

"After having written my original posting, I had the opportunity to read the follow up posts. I am encouraged and admire those of you who have attempted to share and provide explanations of why one may reach the observations I have. To the others who simply support my thoughts and observations, it does very little to be sensitive to your needs when the automated reflex is hostility and instinctual references to "turkish souls" or "a$$" etc." Yes, people react differently to the absurd. " You do a great disservice to those who are trying to be sensitive to understand you and help other Armenians within our local communities. I beleive that you yourself should examine your priorities and true intentions. If Armenia and Armeninans are of pride and importance than you should do whatever you can to help people understand yoor feelings/emotions/beleif systems rather than attempt to create and perpetuate such barriers." Your observations in this forum seem strange to me. The approach you have - take 1% of what was said here and propagate to all others - is very non-scientific. If you are not doing any scientific research about the cultures then you probably observing what you would like to. By the way, thanks for showing us the negative sides of people here, I really appreciate that. " In my line of work, I deal with people from every heritage, culture and orientation. It becomes important to be sensitive to a persons past and culture. It just becomes very difficult for me to understand why certain idealogies are common, irrespective of the denial by some of the posts. My statement on "murders, killing etc" were based on the vast number of views in reference to the desire and evokable interest to kill people in one ethnic group (i.e. Kurdish,Turkish etc.) to people who may assimilate to "American" culture or those associating with Armenians. One does not have to look too far to view such opinions, several posts below this one is a post by Hakod titled "..To kill someone just because it is an odar ..."." Your calm approach is very nice but as I wrote before the opinions here are very diverse, they are full of contradictions. Go to the Russian foRums(if you can find one) and see what many Russians think about the war in Chechnya. But in this case too they do not represent all the Russians. "These types of posts are a reality and are more common than I have seen among any other culture. Prejudice exists in all forms. It is a good idea to preserve heritage culture customs etc, however I personally do not beleive that such should come with the belittling of all others, such as Black, Chineese, or non-Armenians in general. " WELL, IF YOUR task is to find the negative sides of the cultures then I can understand you. It seems to me that is what you are doing. No? " Whatever has happened in the past (history) is something that should be remembered but in my opinion not shape nor be carried into everyday life, as it is these negative feelings that are transgressed to all around you especially odars. Finally, animosity, and hatred can only fuel stress and disease and not necessarily be conducive to healthy living. I bid you farewell, and support those of you that make our communities (which include Armenians) a better place for all. " I absolutely agree with you in this point. But if you consider Armenians as very agressive beings today then I can only say you should get in touch with Armenians, and that will probably help you understand them better. I can only say that Armenians have the ability to FORGIVE (perhaps because of their religion). Vahan

" We are promised to protect our race our countries. We all accept that we did genocide.If any ethnic group starts a revolt,then we will have to do it again. Who? You, Manukyan? I do not recognize the Turk!(Oh, sorry, the TURK!) I feel some lack of diplomacy, maybe you are an Armenian?Oh, sorry, what a sin, I must confess. Anatolia is ours like the Istanbul is. Don't get used by the european people.u will be more happy if u get well with us.'cos they are not your neighbour, but we are. Of course, sitting in Erevan we are dreaming about the great Europe. By the way, is Turkey accepted to the EU? That was a good start for the dialogue, Manukyan, I want to thank you. Totus tuus, armenian

Dear Ara Baliozian, In your "Unpopular Opinions" you write :".... After 600 years of brutal Ottoman tyranny, a literary renaissance in Istanbul; but after 60 years of freedom in America (and with millions spent on schools, churches, centers, libraries, museums, and university chairs) not a single Armenian-language writer or editor" These are all facts that cannot be denied. But 600 is much larger that 60! And can I ask you what did Armenians give after the first 60 or even 160 years in the Ottoman Empire? Who knows what will happen after 300 years in the US. "Wait and see." And why do think that years of freedom could give rise to the brilliant art? Many countries have the full freedom for many years already, do they give a great literature? Does Russia, for example, give excellent writers now? As people say there is only one writer now in Russia - Solgenizin(who was the product of 1930s) Is that possible that freedom makes things worse in that sense, make people relax? And is that possible that it is a more general problem but not only for Armenians? Vahan

"For every Napoleon there are thousands with Napoleonic complexes and millions with Napoleonic ambitions." You are so right! "The genius is doing what he must do, the talent is doing as much as he can, others just imitate." You say that people in Armenia left the country after the independence mainly not because of hard situation in economy. I do not agree, as I remember the majority did it because of lack of job. Moreover, a lot of men went to Russia, US, Ukraine to work and left their families in homeland. Later they took their families to those countries after they found a good place to work. Vahan

If you say that the statements are against almost every single race, please, show that. Well, if you decided to find out something about Armenian culture (as I understand) the Internet Forums are not the best place to go. Are you going to the Internet when you want to find a nice girl? Yes or No? If it was an attempt to learn Armenians' opinions worldwide then I can only say that opinions are really diverse here - with a lot of contradictions! Don't you agree? Vahan

Talkng to my friends at Moscow Universities I get to know that they did not go home (to Armenia) for a long time. Why? Because they will be forced to join the Army Forces right after the arrival in the Airpot Zvartnoz. One way to overcome this problem is to pay money(illegaly). What's that a corrupted patriotism or a manifestation of the "equal rights of all the citizens"? Another person working in Petersburg told me after a vacation in Armenia that he will never go to Armenia again. Why? "There is a corruption beggining the Airport Zvartnoz. After the arrival you feel yourself an enemy of your own country. It is good for foreign people to go to Armenia but not for us." That what can one hear constantly from those who visit our country. On the other hand, Armenians that go to Turkey never will tell you something like that. They like everything in that country! When I go to Russia or US i see a lot of Armenians that TRY to speak Russian and English and ignore their fellow Armenians."Mard hayeri het piti gorts chunena":they say. What the hell is going on? And we talk about the christianity and our old culture? Maybe we like the "idea of Armenia and Armenians" but not the people? Vahan

My first thought is that the nation which created a "small hero" - epos can be called a Great nation. Vahan

Dear Hagarag, According to you: "DNA studies are the state-of-the-art method of determining not only the connections between peoples but also the timeframe and nature of these connections." Well, are you doing a genetic research yourself? If a scientist says that A might be equal to B it will PROBABLY be right untill another one says or prooves that or vice versa(shows that it cannot happen). So, even now the genetic approach in history is not exact(myagko govorya). The problem is that some scientists consider Jews to belong to Armenoid race. Did you know about that? Today people use not only Genetic approach to historical problems but also the advantages of nuclear physics,... But all these things don't work well when we study a problem of 3000 years old. And the best and most exact way is (that may seem strange) is the historical approach. i do not think that David's star is used by Armenians in their churches because there were some assimilation (?) several thousand years ago or something like that.See what Arpa says about that in "Astgik ev Asrvaz". Vahan