Jump to content

THOTH

Banned
  • Posts

    3,609
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    1

Everything posted by THOTH

  1. THOTH

    How To Find God

    In particualr I recommend this passage from the above link... Michel de Montaigne Michel de Montaigne, in a much more quiet and modest but ultimately more subversive way, asked a single question over and over again in his Essays: "What do I know?" By this he meant that we have no right to impose on others dogmas which rest on cultural habit rather than absolute truth. Powerfully influenced by the discovery of thriving non-Christian cultures in places as far off as Brazil, he argued that morals may be to some degree relative. Who are Europeans to insist that Brazilian cannibals who merely consume dead human flesh instead of wasting it are morally inferior to Europeans who persecute and oppress those of whom they disapprove? This shift toward cultural relativism, though it was based on scant understanding of the newly discovered peoples, was to continue to have a profound effect on European thought to the present day. Indeed, it is one of the hallmarks of the Enlightenment. Just as their predecessors had used the tools of antiquity to gain unprecedented freedom of inquiry, the Enlightenment thinkers used the examples of other cultures to gain the freedom to reshape not only their philosophies, but their societies. It was becoming clear that there was nothing inevitable about the European patterns of thought and living: there were many possible ways of being human, and doubtless new ones could be invented. The other contribution of Montaigne to the Enlightenment stemmed from another aspect of his famous question: "What do I know?" If we cannot be certain that our values are God-given, then we have no right to impose them by force on others. Inquisitors, popes, and kings alike had no business enforcing adherence to particular religious or philosophical beliefs. It is one of the great paradoxes of history that radical doubt was necessary for the new sort of certainty called "scientific." The good scientist is the one is willing to test all assumptions, to challenge all traditional opinion, to get closer to the truth. If ultimate truth, such as was claimed by religious thinkers, was unattainable by scientists, so much the better. In a sense, the strength of science at its best is that it is always aware of its limits, aware that knowledge is always growing, always subject to change, never absolute. Because knowledge depends on evidence and reason, arbitrary authority can only be its enemy.
  2. THOTH

    How To Find God

    Yes "Enlightenment" ...but what is it really? http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html
  3. THOTH

    Lack Of Civility

    Oh and I like that - "paleontological entitlement " ... I think we are all soon to be in the mode of "plug and play"...who needs direct social interaction (skills) and (practiced) civility when you can just fill out a form on the net - eh? Oh Brave New World...what wonders I have seen...
  4. THOTH

    Lack Of Civility

    Well I can see the use of fancy adjectives is not on the decline... no, you did good MJ....(please) have another...
  5. THOTH

    How To Find God

    Fine for those requirring reassurances, guidance or what have you...but useless for those of us who just accept that not all things can be known - and are able to live with that without problem - and very unsatisfying for those of us who are not inclined to believe something just because others say it is true - and even worse when these others are making absolute claims about things that they clearly cannot know....
  6. Interesting...though it seems to me the author could have made his point in about 1/4 the words. I think its clear that Benard Lewis has just plainly sold his soul in nearly all matters regading Islam & the Middle East. Where once he was perhaps a fountain of insight and portrayed Islamic culture in history with obvious love of the culture - of late its been simply just pandering. And to some degree I think this all began with his betrayal of the truth in regards to the Armenain Genocide. he got caught in a vicious trap - where pleasing the Turks mattered more then anything else. So as good (and eminantly readable) as some of his past scholorship/histories and analysis has been - at this point I say - let him rot! Interesting also in that I was not aware of his (spiritual advisory?) role in this half-baked concept of bringing democracy to Iraq (as if Islam - as we know it - can ever at all be compatable with Democracy...)
  7. Now why would you want to change your Avatar? Did you get a new dress? ...and what was that about peeling off?
  8. THOTH

    Impressions Of The Day

    sad...some guys just need to be married I guess (or like me - learn to cook!)...if your gettting off on 2 minute noodles - well - your really missing out...(and missing out on other stuff too!)...yeah - Sunday was fathers day and the wife & kids brought me this most wonderful breakfast in bed....then we sent the kids away!
  9. THOTH

    Hell

    Feel free to email those to Sip & I as well...
  10. THOTH

    Hell

    Yes, and exactly (or well somewhat like) the point I made in another thread about sitting in the smoking section on airplanes...its all in the company you keep...but poor girl - hopefully just her fears and no actual "damage"...but perhaps you (Ani)should email Sip & I the pic so we can determine just how "damaging" it is...I'm sure that you are perhaps overeacting - no?
  11. THOTH

    Hell

    Wow Ani - sorry to hear that..I can see how that would be disturbing....and yes - I think that is certainly a more convincing and viable description of hell then the other(s) etc Funny (along these lines...and hope you don't mind me going on about a story related to your misery...) - a co-worker of mine a ways back once lent me this book to read. When I opened it up out popped some pics...of his g/f...nude & such...ooops...I handed him the book back and suggested he check it out first before lending it to me...he was (seemed) very embarrased...but I don't know - maybe he was trying to give me some ideas - don''t know...but I didn't take the bait...
  12. THOTH

    How To Find God

    No thanks...I can do without the extra cholestrol...
  13. Sorry my bad..guess my cut & paste didn't take...yeah...
  14. Reporters Without Borders 2004 Annual reports: Azerbaijan (tsk tsk...) http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=9961 Armenia (better - but still not too good...) http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=10548 Turkey (no wonder they rank 100...) http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=10548 others available to link too from site
  15. Did you know that Armenia is considered among one of the poorest 63 nations in the world??? Armenia, Georgia to get anti-poverty aid from US May 07, 2004 YEREVAN - Armenia and Georgia have been selected to receive US aid under the 'Challenges of the Century' program run by the US State Department. The 16 countries are, in addition to Armenia and Georgia: Benin, Bolivia, Cape Verde, Ghana, Honduras, Lesotho, Madagascar, Mali, Mongolia, Mozambique, Nicaragua, Senegal, Sri Lanka and Vanuatu. The 16 were chosen from among the 63 poorest countries in the world as the countries in that group most active in combating corruption, moving toward a market economy and protecting civil rights. The total aid to be disbursed comes to USD 1 billion in 2004 and USD 2.5 billion in 2005. The funds are to be used for economic development and to combat poverty.
  16. THOTH

    Armenian Miniature

    I'll bet its quite impressive...This one is on permenent display at the Walters in Baltimore. http://www.thewalters.org/html/collec_obje...?ID=41&offset=2 Several years ago they had an exhibit featuring a great number of Armenian illustrated Bibles (some in minature as I recall), icons and related (incl Bible covers in silver and such) that was pretty awesome. I still have the program...would love to see more of these...(but won't be able to make it to New York before the 4th...shame...). Glad that you managed it however. Not Armenian but similar (Greek) and very nice http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/biblicalHome.htm and these are (mostly) Islamic - but quite nice as well http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/islamicHome.htm And different entirely but perhaps worth a look: http://www.textilemuseum.org/totm/augindex.htm In the past this excellent little museum has had exhibits of Anatolian textiles (carpets) and Caucasian textiles - the latter in particualr featuring many from Armenia.
  17. THOTH

    Hell

    I don't think the wording in the poll is faulty. And regarding the statement I made concerning that whoever voted "I never vote in polls" is a liar - I still stand by what I said - "liar!"
  18. Another good one... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books
  19. Long - but well worth the read (and worth checking out Earl Doherty's other writings as well) Note: Bold/emphasis - mine Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ by Earl Doherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Despite the reservations expressed by some critics, there can be little doubt that Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ is a cinematic masterpiece. While stylized, even theatrical, in character, the acting is impressive, the cinematography breathtaking, the musical score powerful and haunting. Even the film’s message is skillfully conveyed, if not always with subtlety. And to have all the actors deliver their lines―convincingly―in two dead languages (Aramaic and Latin) is something of a tour-de-force. But The Passion of the Christ is also profoundly disturbing, and on more than one level. Complaints about graphic violence are not exaggerated; indeed, what we are presented with is an orgy of brutality, a glorification in its own way of suffering and human cruelty. Gibson clearly set out to push buttons, and he has no doubt succeeded. But he has succeeded perhaps too well. For some people, those buttons should trigger a reaction which the director did not have in mind. The Christian myth of salvation is a powerful one, and has captured―literally―the minds of millions over the centuries. But its foundations are rationally and morally unsound. There are several moments in the film that should serve to undermine the protective wall circumscribing the believing mind. The first is in the opening scene, set in a dark and brooding Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus, knowing what is to befall him, is wracked with fear and dread; the sweat pours from him in horrible anticipation. He asks his Father to let the cup pass, but if that is not possible, he bows to the Father’s “will.” The scene is set for an ordeal that is portrayed―as it is in so much Christian writing―as the will of God himself. The second moment comes late in the crucifixion scene, as Jesus is expiring on the cross. The camera’s perspective rushes dizzyingly skyward, high above the hilltop where so much pain and cruelty have transpired, as though Jesus’ spirit or the wail of his death agony have soared to heaven, and out of that heaven falls a single great drop of water, plunging to earth and splashing onto the rocks near the cross. The tear, we are led to assume, of God himself. God has been moved to weep at the scene below him. The third moment is the final fade-out of the Calvary event. Jesus has been taken down from the cross, a broken body of blood and filth and lacerated flesh, now lying dead in his mother’s arms. The face of Mary (she is consummately played by a little known Romanian actress) is the face of all good and grieving humanity when overwhelmed by the world’s evils and suffering. Then she raises her eyes to the camera as it draws slowly away. For several long moments those eyes rest upon the viewers’ own, quietly telling them that they themselves are guilty of bringing about this monstrous act, this death of man and God. And yet, what has come to pass is the will of God, for so the New Testament constantly tells us, from Paul to the Gospels. If the object has been to absolve humanity of its sins, the absolution is at God’s discretion, and it is he who has decided what shall elicit such forgiveness from him. At least, so we would be compelled to conclude. Within the religious view, a system of forgiveness and salvation does not exist independently from God’s creation and direction. It is God who must be placated for the world’s sins, not some eternal force or principle that lies independent of him or of his will. What hovers over the entire film is the brooding cloud of God’s presence, dark and scowling, but one conveying a sense of divine satisfaction at the unfolding of his plan. Whence, then, the tear from heaven, for it surely cannot be occasioned by doubt or regret? The Christian myth thus imputes to its God a preference for suffering and brutality. Less horrific alternatives have obviously been rejected by him. If all things are possible to God, other systems of salvation should have been available. If no standards of good and evil exist outside God’s mind (the position of those who declare that only the God-serving can be good), then he can choose the paths he wishes in order to carry out his designs. As well, if there is to be any continuity between God and his creatures, if we are to gain any insight into his requirements, we must assume that the general standards of good and evil we have acquired are the same as his; otherwise, we are lost in a chaotic uncertainty. If torture, injustice, suffering, murder are evil to our minds, we have to assume they are evil to God’s mind. And yet this is the procedure he has chosen to effect our salvation; moreover, it is one that must be performed by the very people who need to renounce and be forgiven for such sins. To make matters worse, it must be performed on the Deity himself, on the very being to whom we owe love and worship and from whom we are hoping to gain forgiveness. God has established a bizarre system through which our sins are forgiven by the forced commission of the greatest sin of all. This is a deicide to haunt the mind, if not to drive it insane. That such a thing could arise from an eternal, all-loving, omnipotent God is beyond belief―or else we truly live in a mad universe. What are we to make of the juxtaposition of God’s requirement of this barbarous act with his directive that we should “love one another”? Gibson actually intercuts the two elements within the film. Jesus, through the one eye left to him that has not been swollen shut from the beating he has received, sees things along the road to death that prompt him to recall earlier Gospel moments. One of these is the Johannine supper scene, where the love command is given to the disciples, another the Sermon on the Mount with the admonition to the multitude to love one’s enemies. This direct juxtaposition ought to create a jarring incongruity in the mind of the viewer. Is this the same Deity who urges peace and love, and yet has fashioned salvation out of atrocity and murder? At that supper, Jesus speaks what is one of the most oft-quoted lines from any of the Gospels (John 15:13): “There is no greater love than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends.” This is a concept which seems to overwhelm most Christians. More than one person interviewed while exiting a theater after seeing The Passion of the Christ has said: “To think that he suffered all that for me.” Altruism is a commendable feature, even of a god; we humans consider the capacity for it to be one of our highest virtues. Yet there is a difference between a person rushing into a burning house to save someone at the risk of his own life, and a person who sets the fire himself in order to play the hero. The latter has perpetrated the evil, and has hardly set a good example to the community. If he has somehow managed to make the occupant feel responsible for the rescuer’s need to set the fire, the situation becomes unconscionable. One of the most compelling secondary roles in this film, and a fine piece of acting, is that of Simon of Cyrene, who is pressed by the Roman soldiers into helping Jesus carry the cross. While adamantly reluctant at first, Simon is soon so moved by the wretched man struggling alongside him that he strives to take on the full weight of the cross himself and even to become Jesus’ protector from the vicious soldiers. This is true altruism, and once they arrive at their destination, he is forcibly sent on his way. Gibson portrays him as a stranger, and his beliefs are unknown. He is not a follower of Jesus and may not even be a Jew. I like to see him as the film’s token atheist, though I am sure that Gibson did not intend him that way. Mary’s sorrowful, penetrating gaze with her dead son in her arms reminds one of every priest, minister and televangelist who would convince us that it is perfectly normal for their God to act like the stern parent who, when the child spills his supper, goes ballistic and destroys the house, leaving the family cold and miserable, and then accuses the child of being responsible. In The Passion of the Christ, God is the unseen director of the action, the scriptwriter, the casting director, the special effects producer. This picture of a God who has masterminded the ghastly events so vividly presented in this film is not a pretty sight, and Gibson’s sometimes over-the-top presentation only brings this home with shocking clarity. Of course, this is not the only example of God’s tendency to overreaction. Lurking in the background through Gibson’s film is the figure of Satan, portrayed by a woman, though she comes across androgynously. God may be the mastermind, but Satan is the vulture, the agent in God’s scheme of things who reaps the rewards from humanity’s weakness and guilt. Behind Satan lies his abode (mercifully not shown in the film), the terrible place of unending punishment repentant humans have been saved from by the torture and murder of Jesus. Again the anomaly is striking. It is murderers and other evildoers who are fated for such a place, yet it is the murderers and evildoers who have been called upon to perform God’s act of salvation. It is supremely ironic that the faith movement which has most hailed itself as the religion of love contains the two most brutal and inhuman concepts ever to emerge from mankind’s religious compulsions: the crucifixion of Jesus and the punishment of Hell. Christian history is replete with the extermination of heretics, crusades against the infidel, religious wars between its own sects, bloody inquisitions and witch-burnings. One has only to view Gibson’s film to get a sense of where the ultimate inspiration has come from. Two other lines in The Passion of the Christ have an unintended impact. As Jesus struggles along the hard-cobbled street, falling several times under the weight of the cross (before Simon is pressed into service), his mother Mary and her companion, Mary Magdalene―played by another compelling actress who speaks hardly a single line―follow at a distance, reacting to the unfolding horror. With each stumble, Mary is torn by grief and pity, by the heart-wrenching concern of a mother for her son. This may be the most emotionally affecting element of the entire film, and should genuinely move the viewer to tears. At one fall, we are given a flashback to Jesus’ childhood when Mary rushes to comfort the boy as he tumbles in the field. In the present moment, it is too much for her, and throwing caution to the wind, she rushes to his side as the great wooden beams crush him once more to the paving stones. “I am here, my son,” she says. This is the one moment where Gibson truly stumbles, for he cannot make the next line work. Amid the agony of mother and son, Jesus gasps: “Mother, see, I have made all things new.” Gibson has adapted this verse from Revelation (21:5), where it is spoken by God. Those who are not struck by its sheer incongruity within this film are probably beyond redemption. To think that this orgy of cruelty and suffering we are in the process of witnessing, from the grisly bloodletting of the scourging which seems to go on for hours to the graphic driving of the nails into Jesus’ hands and feet, was the means which served to change the world, that this was God’s way of making “all things new,” only speaks to the human mind’s ability to hold the most irrational and outrageous ideas and build a faith around them. The other line comes in the supper discourse. To his disciples Jesus declares, as Christianity has declared to the world for two millennia: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The line is disconcerting coming from the Jesus of this film, as played by Jim Caviezel. His is a relatively unpretentious portrayal, a gentle good man with an appealing charisma. For him to voice the sentiment that has long served to divide families, peoples, nations, turn non-believers into infidels, consign vast portions of humanity that never knew or had a chance to know this singular savior to the ranks of the damned, seems out of place even in this film. But that has always been the effect of religious belief: division, factionalism, alienation. No one faith has ever gained, nor will ever gain, a universal following. And so there will always be outsiders, pagans, enemies, candidates for damnation. Sectarian allegiance instills a sense of superiority, privilege, sanctity, while those not part of the spiritual elite are relegated to outer darkness. Gibson’s film drives this home, with its setting of murderous conflict between differing religious convictions, a conflict that continues to wreak havoc even unto our own day. The bloody ordeal of one man becomes symbolic of the effects of infection by the idea of the supernatural within the human brain. The saving death of Jesus represents a primitive concept, the principle of blood sacrifice both of animals and of humans which was regarded by ancient and prehistoric man as the fundamental way to placate and intercede with the gods. It was part of the natural order; in fact it was so taken for granted that no one anywhere in the bible, Old or New Testaments, offers a justification for it, or an explanation of how it works. Christians today are just as much in the dark about why the death of Jesus should have atoning power with God. Ironically, those same modern Christians would universally regard the ritual killing of humans or animals as outdated and repugnant in any other area of society’s life. And yet they continue to endorse it by their adherence to the idea of Jesus as a blood sacrifice on their behalf. As modern science and culture progress, the suffocating weight of ancient superstition is hopefully becoming more evident and more unacceptable. The extreme expression of anything always provokes a backlash. The further the pendulum swings in one direction, the more energy is imparted to it for the backward swing. Perhaps we ought to be thankful to Mel Gibson for laying out the stark reality of Christianity’s world-view.
  20. I recommend this book - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087...3298903-0668118
  21. THOTH

    Why

    Historically Armenains have been people who have shown more care to the family unit and their immediate surroundings and less abotu uniting to form a nation (like to go off and conqor others etc). And even at the micro level - most Armenains are not so concerned with the larger political issues (outside of the Genocide issue - which is in truth a very personal thing). Its obvious that we are not a people who naturally unite and subvert ourselves to the wills of others - we are strong willed and very independent. OK (agree/disagree?)
  22. And how many poor suffering people are truly happy. I'm not saying you need to be rich to be happy - but it sure helps!
  23. Well that is just perfect isn't it? What is the point of living - of striving to change things - make them better - if all is already perfect? (and obviously pre-destined and such - because perfect would be a continum throughout time would it not?)...so again - just what is the point? To live out our role in all of this pre-concieved perfection? And I supose the Armenain Genocide was all part of this perfect plan as well...so who are we to bitch and complain? And why bother feeling pain and hurt...etc etc And your sureness in all of this I find just baffling.... OK - so no sex, no money (and/or fun things that can be had through such) - no desire to see your children do well (non-attached = no caring) etc etc Sounds to me like your advocation a life of heroin intoxication... And I understand that what you are saying is consistent with most Eastern religious thought - and there is no doubt through meditation and disatachment (to a limited degree) one can gain insights - but to advocate that the world around is illusion and that we must disattach from it - well this is nto a good perscription for sucess, hapiness (unless of an ignorance is bliss type), and furthering of the species. It is an outlook that serves the rich & powerful in control of things to placate the masses - yeah your poor and miserable - but heh - don't worry about it - its not important - you should worry about things in your next life and just accept your lot in this one....well I find all of this sort of thing to be very counterproductive and counterintuitive, unprovable and just plain wrong (and this should be obvious - as people have always strived to better themselves and their lot in this life - and the joy of life is through involvement and experience - not tuning out...). As good as application of some of these concepts may be - taken to the point to which they/you ascribe - well its a great sham if you ask me...
  24. But can you claim there is Heaven or reincarnation or what have unless you know for sure? And my claiming that there are not these things - is essentially based on "knowing for sure" - as the concepts are patently absurd....but of course one never knows - there are many absurdaties in life...and so perhaps I am open to possibilities (lets just say I regard the possibilities as being very very low - and when mixed in with all the hosts of other possibilities well...)..what peeves me are the people who not just believe these things (OK believe what you want) - but who go on about them as if they are really some kind of reality for everyone else - and judge others based on their belief/non-belief and such...and such...
×
×
  • Create New...