THOTH

Angel - possibly the best post you have ever made...hope for you after all - eh? Oh and SIp - of course - by definition whoever voted the "I don't vote in polls" is a liar....

I think a good argument could be made that it is against Armenian nature to be united. So if this is true - are those calling for Armenians to unite actually calling for Armenians to change who we are?

Yes - when religion fails we can always turn to the meds eh? Happiness in a pill?

http://www.ihd.org.tr/eindex.html http://www.ihd.org.tr/report/summary/2003.html http://www.ihd.org.tr/press/press20040226.htm "Based on human rights, a new democratic constitution is needed for Turkey. Human rights are protected by impartial and independent judiciary. So, it is necessary to restrict the judiciary according to the principle of superiority of law. Turkish laws on elections and political parties should not include bans and barriers. Turkey should end torture, protect freedom of expression, and carry out cultural rights. Turkey should prepare open and assessable plans and projects about the evacuated villages and it should establish rooted internal peace. Turkey has an opportunity and possibility to resolve the Kurdish question in a peaceful and democratic way without conflict. Firstly citizens of Turkey with Kurdish origin have demanded it. Turkey should adopt pluralism and respect all its citizens with the sense of constitutional citizenship. Turkey should not be a country where 107 prisoners died due to death fasts. Turkey should not be a country where people who want to inform the public opinion about mentioned violations are beaten and injured."

results so far - overwhelming non-belief and/or indifference....

Along similar lines - Baku-Tiblisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline... http://www.bakuceyhan.org.uk/ and a nice page concerning georgia & Armenai energy issues (with some great links...) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caucasus.html#GEORGIA and Caspian Sea (energy realated issues) in general... http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspian.html

some nice posts anon...particularly this last one...

Yes - thank you... and its not about God (or gods etc) being perfect...is regarding if they exist. And what makes belief in the existance of Allah (and all that this entails) any more legitimate then belief in the existance of Zeus or what have you? And then there is the whole Christian concept of Jesus dying to save us from supposed transgressions we have commited against this angry, vain, and nasty fire god form the mountain. First - what right does this being - if indeed he/it exists - have to demand such from us? And then what kind of nastiness (this hell & punishment)...for what - not totally subverting ourselves to his will (yeah some free will). This is not at all the traits of a good god IMO (and it just seems so obvious to me - I don't know)...so no - this Jesus concept (as put foreward by fundementalist believers) offers me nothing...it is not light - it is heat and torture... Then of course there is the record of Christianity through history. How can one not judge the religion by the behavior of the believers/adherrents...and I could go on and on. And for the likes of uninformed (and and not too bright) Gevo to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about - well - that is a laugh. It is only because he and others here (seemingly) can in no way counter what I put forth...yet all the same they will condemn and look down on others...so yes it is very plain - (Christian & otherwise) religion as a crutch for children who need to be reassured of their superiority over others...and who need to make categories where they can see other people as "other" and hate them....(I'm not saying that this is true for all people - as there are a great many very religious people that i totally respect and who - for the most part - focus on the good aspects of the religion [and these people are also capable of having a worthwhile and interesting debate on these issues and can fully understand the legitimacy of the belief/non-belief etc of folks who think otherwise])

Well Armat - I supose Armenians shouldn't have expected anything from enlightened Ottomans, Jews from enlightened Germans etc. Its a question of fairness, discrimination and rights in our society. But your correct - I really feel that I have pretty much answered all objections and made my case well - regardless of the (lame) protests to the contrary.

LOL... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books "In The Children Are Free, Rev. Jeff Miner and John Tyler Connoley offer a comprehensive yet easy-to-read examination of the biblical evidence regarding loving same-sex relationships and God's attitude toward them. In Chapter One, the authors lead the reader through a discussion of each of the six passages traditionally used against gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. In their friendly and authoritative style, they demonstrate how an anti-gay interpretation is a misapplication of these scriptures" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188...5435263-7584627 From Booklist Believing that the translation of the Bible they use consists of the inerrant word of God, some Christians cite a handful of passages to justify their condemnation of homosexuality. But historical biblical scholarship holds that these believers' conception of inerrancy is naively based, for English versions of the originally Hebrew and Greek scriptures are rife with problematic translations. Some scholars further maintain that the supposedly antihomosexual passages are not blanket condemnations of homosexual persons and acts. Indeed, in some cases, these verses aren't about homosexuality at all; they meant quite different things to those for whom they were first written, peoples whose social conceptions of sexuality were vastly different from ours. Helminiak provides cogent, accessible precis of these revisionist findings on the Bible's six major passages and few minor references that seem to denounce homosexuality. The Bible does not condemn gay sex as we understand it today, he concludes; those who seek to know outright if gay or lesbian sex is good or evil . . . will have to look elsewhere for an answer

God says do what you wish, but make the wrong choice and you will be tortured for eternity in hell. That’s not free will. It’s like a man telling his girlfriend, do what you wish, but if you choose to leave me, I will track you down and blow your brains out. When a man says this we call him a psychopath. When god says the same we call him “loving” and build churches in his honor. - William C. Easttom II ____________________________ I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being. - Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist ____________________________ According to Christianity eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God’s infinite love. That’s the message we’re brought up with, believe or die. “Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options.” - Bill Hicks, Rant in E-minor, CD ____________________________ As a tot I was given the usual terrifying mixed message: a) God is love; and If you don’t believe how much he loves you, you will stand in the corner for eternity. - James Lileks, “God Has Call Waiting,” Notes of a Nervous Man ____________________________ When all has been considered, it seems to me to be the irresistible intuition that infinite punishment for finite sin would be unjust, and therefore wrong. We feel that even weak and erring Man would shrink from such an act. And we cannot conceive of God as acting on a lower standard of right and wrong. - Lewis Carroll (author of Alice in Wonderland), “Eternal Punishment,” Diversions and Digressions of Lewis Carroll ____________________________ They say that when god was in Jerusalem he forgave his murderers, but now he will not forgive an honest man for differing with him on the subject of the Trinity. They say that God says to me, “Forgive your enemies.” I say, “I do;” but he says, “I will damn mine.” God should be consistent. If he wants me to forgive my enemies he should forgive his. I am asked to forgive enemies who can hurt me. God is only asked to forgive enemies who cannot hurt him. He certainly ought to be as generous as he asks us to be. - Robert Ingersoll ____________________________ An idea, which has terrified millions, claims that some of us will go to a place called Hell, where we will suffer eternal torture. This does not scare me because, when I try to imagine a Mind behind this universe, I cannot conceive that Mind, usually called “God,” as totally mad. I mean, guys, compare that “God” with the worst monsters you can think of -- Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-masochistic fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation (if such exists) wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously. Such a deranged Mind could not create a mud hut, much less the exquisitely mathematical universe around us. If such a monster-God did exist, the sane attitude would consist of practicing the Buddhist virtue of compassion. Don’t give way to hatred: try to understand and forgive him. Maybe He will recover his wits some day. - Robert Anton Wilson, “Cheerful Reflections on Death and Dying,” Gnoware, February 1999 ________________________ There are in fact so many strong Biblical, doctrinal, and logical arguments against the existence of a literal hell that this question naturally arises: Why do the churches teach it and why do people often believe it?...The churches tend to believe that fear, rather than love conquers all. - Robert Short, Methodist clergyman, U.S. Catholic, April 1980

REVELATIONSHIPS (THE BIBLE AS A GUIDE TO FINDING A MARRIAGE PARTNER) While there are several mentions of wedding feasts in the Bible, nowhere is a "religious marriage ceremony" set forth; it was a business contract between the father and bridegroom, a simple exchange of property. - Perry Deane Young, God's Bullies THE TOP 16 WAYS TO GET A WIFE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE 1) Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she's yours. (Deut. 21:11-13) 2) "Lay hold on" a virgin who is not betrothed to another man, and have sex with her, but afterwards pay her father a sum of money. Then she's yours. (Deut. 22:28-29) 3) Find a prostitute and marry her. (Hosea 1:1-3) 4) Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock. -- Moses (Ex. 2:16-21) 5) Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. --Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10) 6) Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one and carry her off to be your wife. -- Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25) 7) Have God create a wife for you while you sleep. Note: this will cost you a rib. -- Adam (Gen. 2:19-24) 8) Agree to work seven years in exchange for a woman's hand in marriage. Get tricked into marrying the wrong woman. Then work another seven years for the woman you wanted to marry in the first place. That's right. Fourteen years of toil for a wife. -- Jacob (Gen. 29:15-30) 9) Cut 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law's enemies and get his daughter for a wife. -- David (1 Sam. 18:27) 10) Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you'll definitely find someone. -- Cain (Gen. 4:16-17) 11) Become the emperor of a huge nation and hold a beauty contest. -- Xerxes or Ahasuerus (Esther 2:3-4) 12) When you see someone you like, go home and tell your parents, "I have seen a woman; now get her for me." If your parents question your decision, simply say, "Get her for me. She's the one for me." -- Samson (Judges 14:1-3) 13) Kill any husband and take HIS wife. (Prepare to lose four sons though.) -- David (2 Sam. 11) 14) Wait for your brother to die. Take his widow. (It's not just a good idea, it's the law!) -- Onan and Boaz (Deut. or Lev., example in Ruth) 15) Don't be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. -- Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3) 16) A wife?.NOT! -- Paul (1st Corinthians, chapter 7, see below) It is good for a man not to touch a woman [sexually]. For I would that all men were even as I myself. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Are you loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. The time is short: it remains that they that have wives be as though they had none. He that is unmarried cares for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married cares for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married cares for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit. that you may attend upon the Lord without distraction. - 1 Cor. 7:1,7,8-9,26-27,29,32-35

Natural Selections from Uncle Ed's Holy Book With regard to the gods I know not whether they exist or not or what they are like. Many things prevent our knowing; the subject is obscure, and brief is the span of mortal life. - Protagoras My philosophy remains Transcendental Agnosticism. There are realities and intelligences greater than conditioned normal consciousness recognizes, but it is premature to dogmatize about them at this primitive stage of our evolution. We've hardly begun to crawl off the surface of the cradle-planet. - Robert Anton Wilson The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. - Eric Hoffer All great religions in order to escape absurdity, have to admit a dilution of agnosticism. It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent [or American T.V. screen], who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely. - H. L. Mencken We have infinite trouble in solving [natural and] man-made mysteries; it is only when we set out to discover "the secret of God" that our difficulties disappear. - Mark Twain (at the top of his sarcastic form) Every other sect supposes itself in possession of the truth, and that those who differ are so far in the wrong. Like a man travelling in foggy weather they see those at a distance before them wrapped up in a fog, as well as those behind them, and also people in the fields on each side; but near them, all appears clear, though in truth they are as much in the fog as any of them... In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the want of it. - Benjamin Franklin I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. - Wilson Mizner An evangelical Christian once told me, "Only Jesus Christ can save Man..." (What about Woman, I wondered? Oh, well, one does not expect semantic sophistication from literalist Bible believers) "... and restore him to his lost state of peace with God, himself and others." Yeah, sure, and only new Pepsi can make you feel really happy, and only our brand is better than the competition, and only our country is the best country. It is truly amazing to me that people can utter such arrogant nonsense with no humor, no sense of how offensive they are to others, no doubt or trepidation, and no suspicion that they sound exactly like advertisers, con-men and other swindlers. It is really hard to understand such child-like prattling. If I were especially conceited about something (a state I try to avoid, but if I fell into it...), if for instance I decided I had the best garden or the handsomest face in Ireland, I would still retain enough common sense to suspect that I would sound like a conceited fool if I went around telling everybody those opinions. I would have enough tact left, I hope, to satisfy my conceit by dreaming that other people would notice on their own that my garden and/or my face were especially lovely. People who go around innocently and blithely announcing that they belong to the Master Race or the Best Country Club or have the One True Religion seem to have never gotten beyond the kindergarten level of ego-display. Do they have no modesty, no tact, no shame, no adult common sense at all? Do they have any suspicion how silly their conceit sounds to the majority of the nonwhite nonChristian men and women of the world? To me, they seem like little children wearing daddy's clothes and going around shouting, "Look how grown-up I am! Look at me, me, me!" There are more amusing things than ego-games, conceit and one-upmanship. Really, there are. I suspect that people stay on that childish level because they have never discovered how interesting and exciting the adult world is. If one must play ego-games, I still think it would be more polite, and more adult, to play them in the privacy of one's head. In fact, despite my efforts to be a kind of Buddhist, I do relapse into such ego-games on occasion; but I have enough respect for human intelligence to keep such thoughts to myself. I don't go around announcing that I have painted the greatest painting of our time; I hope that people will notice that by themselves. Why do the people whose ego-games consist of day-dreaming about being part of the Master Race or the One True Religion not keep that precious secret to themselves, also, and wait for the rest of the human race to notice their blinding superiority? - Robert Anton Wilson Love can lead to devotion, but the devotion of the lover is unlike that of the True Believer in that it is not militant. I may be surprised - even shocked - to find that you do not feel as I do about a given book or work of art or even person; I may very well attempt to change your mind; but I will finally accept that your tastes, your loves, are your business and not mine. The True Believer knows no such restraints. The True Believer knows that he is simply right, and you are wrong. He will seek to convert you, even by force, and if he cannot he will, at the very least, despise you for your unbelief. - Salman Rushdie, Imaginary Homelands People need religion like they need a lift in their shoe. If it makes them feel a little taller and happier about themselves, fine. But if you keep that lift in your shoe all the time, as you walk, jog, play sports, etc., you can wind up sore, or maybe even crippled...And, PLEEEEASE, let's not send folks to other countries to nail lifts onto the natives' feet! - George Carlin I'm not offended by Pagan, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, or Atheist viewpoints in fiction. Or in non-fiction, for that matter. I may disagree - but I'm almost certain to disagree with any author at some point. To anyone who equates disagreement with hatred, I say, "Bosnia!" - Gene Wolfe (award winning Sci-Fi author) During my life I have made countless friends by arguing - I am a Northerner living in the South, a Jew in the most Gentile community on the continent, an integrationist among white supremacists. I have a lot to argue about. But I have made friends over discussing a difference of opinion because I make my mind up about what I believe, but I do not make my mind up about people. - Harry Golden, columnist who wrote during the 1940s to 1960s in the Southern U.S. What is the best book in the world? I'd say that even the best book remains a mere book, and not life itself. Even the best book is one that can eventually bore you, if only through repetition. Be open to the best in every person, every experience and every book, and use your better judgment, built upon a lifetime of your own experiences. Books are not life, and cannot lead your life for you. You must decide. Even Bible believers have to decide which passages in Scripture deserve greater emphasis than others. And if an action commends itself to your conscience you don't need a book to also tell you whether it is "good" or not. - E. T. Babinski Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx Do you believe that the God who "created your mind" with it's exceeding curiosity (well, maybe not your mind), and its ability to ask the most fascinating questions of nature, art, beauty, science, etc., would also want to absolve us of having to think by giving us a so-called "perfect book" that must never be deeply questioned? - E. T. Babinski (in an internet discussion with a Bible believer) Either god should have written a book to fit my brain, or should have made my brain to fit his book. The inspiration of the Bible depends on the credulity of him who reads. - Robert Ingersoll Ever notice the way that preachers of "ye olde tyme religion" drag out the pronunciation of the name of their favorite holy book, calling it the "Buy-Bull?" Who buys that bull? Even the Bible tells you not to! "I will accept no bull..." Psalm 50:9 (NASB) "I will take no bull[ock]..." Psalm 50:9 (KJV) "...the rest of the bull - he must take outside..." Leviticus 4:12 (NIV) - E. T. Babinski Read the Bible as you would any other book; think of it as you would any other, use your reasoning ability to ask questions as they naturally arise, just as you would if you were reading another book. And it will eventually dawn on you that the books of the Bible, or at least portions of them, were of strictly human and sometimes barbarian, invention. On the other hand, if you have gazed at the Bible for many years through "theology colored glasses" then you may not be able to detect the many shades and depths of questions visible within the text nor those within your own head and heart as they relate to the text. Because after years of church indoctrination most people don't even realize they have acquired a particular "theological" slant, or that they have been hypnotized by "orthodox" comments made by fellow church goers, and by "orthodox" commentaries on Scripture filled with pious platitudes - commentaries that pass in silence over difficulties, or else that read into the text "orthodox" meanings that are not there. Not only the Bible, but the Muslim's Koran, the Mormon's Book of Mormon, and the Hindu's Bhagavad-Gita, have pious adherents and countless pious commentaries written about them. In courtrooms in India, people are even "sworn in" with their hands on the Gita, not the Bible. And isn't it laughable when two "fundamentalist" commentators cannot agree on the meaning of a verse or group of verses, each commentator insisting that his interpretation is the perfectly natural one God intended? Both commentators agree that God wouldn't bother to write a book unless every chapter and verse in it was relevant to believers like themselves, believers who were being "led into all truth" by the "Holy Spirit." God wouldn't let His words and their meaning get lost in hazy translation, or misconstrued over time, especially not by true believers like themselves, would He? Of course, the history of Christian dogma tells a different story. The controversies that revolve around interpreting the books of the Bible have been around since before certain books were even picked to be in "the Bible." There were many competing interpretations before the Nicene Council in 325 A.D. (to which we owe the invention of "The Trinity"), all the way up to the multitude of different Christian denominations today, and God didn't stop plenty of blood being shed over them. - E. T. Babinski Try as they might to be humble, to avoid the pitfalls of intellectual pride - largely because the Bible tells them to, perhaps - fundamentalists are dogmatic and doctrinalistic because their doctrine of the text forces them to be. They are reading an "inerrant" text. What they read, and therefore by definition what they interpret, must be inerrant. - Kathleen C. Boone, The Bible Tells Them So I don't claim to be inerrant, but I recently received a miraculous vision that showed me exactly how the world will end: It is the year six billion A.D. and our sun is a slowly dying star. But our technology has grown so advanced that we simply move our planet. We head for the Andromeda galaxy and meet another planet headed in the opposite direction. We...play...chicken. E. T. BABINSKI

non argument - does not require religion. If one can come to this conclusion without religion then what is the value added? Rejecting religion has nothing to do with this argument. I believe that Mormans would agree that you shoulnd't hurt others? If you agree - then why aren't you a Morman? Or could it be that there are other facotrs about Mormanism - and what Mormans believe that you disagree with. Some holds true for being Muslim - how can you reject the prophet Mohammed and all that he and his followers claim you muct believe. I can go on... No need for a religion to explain the obvious. Religion might be useful for codefying a set of moral belifs and such and for explaining what might not be known or perhaps even knowable (for those who need such hand holding). Oh and spirituality is not the same thing as religion - though again it is concerned with making sense of the unknown and (perhaps) allows internalizing of concepts - converting them from words to actual feeling etc...and there is nothing wrong with this. The world ia a wonder... And your Toto/Bobo example - well it doesn't at all exaplin anything in regards to religion. I think we have agreed in past arguments that basically religion relies on faith and is not provable. So a more acurate parable would concern Bobo telling us that if Toto jumps off a cliff - and only believes in the God of anti-gravity that he will not fall. Well I have some advice for Toto.... And Sasun claims that he will follow Bobo's suggestion because it seems a reasonable choice...well there are many possible resonable choices etc - some are perhaps correct and others are not...and what may seem reasonable or acceptable to one person may not be such to another. It may seem resonable to me to believe that Aliens created us by genetically manipulating ape creatures and that we were put on this Earth in order to grow food and mine and stockpile gold (to be left as offerings) - and that if we do these (reasonable) things well then the Aliens will take care of us and give us reward. Well - I may believe this - and certain signs may suggest that indeed this be true - and it does seem resonable to suppose I guess - as good as anyting else...but should I turn this into an entire belief system? - working towards this end - mining and stockpiling gold, berating others for not doing so (how can they not see! etc - and my they are sure to be punished...)...and persecuting others for not believeing in such....well you get the picture i think...

I guess your right...its all the bacteria...they are controlling everything...we are just the hosts...

yes of course...look I can respect your choices - but you and others continually put down those who do not believe and act as if it is some sort of defficiency - and it is not. I have been making strong and consistent arguments - regardless of what you say. Your unwilingness to really address the real and serious issues I raise seems as if you are afraid to examine alternatives to your belief system. Your claim that I am "not worth the time" and that I don't know what I'm talking about is just a sign of weakness on your part. But I really don't care - do as you wish. But I've personally had it with others who continually put down atheism/agnostiscim and such and who claim to know all truth and that any who disagree are damned and ignorant or what have you and I will continue to make my arguments to the contrary.

No Anoushik - you are doing great. You can't help that certain religious people are so closed minded and unthinking that they can't accept that others see things differently (and just as legitimatly) then they and that perhaps their immagined view of reality isn't by definition the correct one - etc...sad but true... To claim that there is no morality unless it is tied into some religion is just an absurd statement. It presuposes that we are all children...among other things...and denies the fact that people are fundementally good and do care about one another and not just themselves.

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s2i4585

How do you know this? I worry and I care and I contribute and do what I can..but bottom line I am a citizen of the USA - my family and children are from here and this is my home, my nation, my (family's) future...this is just the facts - and it is also true for the majority of Diasporan Armenians I imagine...not everyone is concerned with larger social or political issues (not saying that I am not - because I am) - most people worry about their daily lives, providing for their families and their families futures. The fact that I am aware and follow the general goings on in Armenia, with Armenians and in the diaspora is certainly some sign that I do care and I am involved...but fundementally my life is in the USA even if in my heart I feel that I am Armenian and identify with, pull for and am involved with Armenians (to the extent that I am). Again I argue that I am not "lost" per se...but neither do I place my affiliation as an Armenian (my heritage and one might say my nationality - at least in part) above that of the nation - of the life - for which myself and my famly find ourselves in. And my argument is that Armenia lives on....in Armenia...and to whatever degree those in the Diaspora continue to embrace it...

Taking the Bible literally... http://www.gracecathedral.org/church/sermo..._20021110.shtml (note this is in real audio)...following link provides an excerpt of the text): http://www.dean-justinspoliticaljournal.ca...e_ridiculed.htm came accross this winner...perhaps we should do a poll... I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."---Former President George Bush speaking of we should perhaps discuss the pledge of allegience rulling eh?

So should we really follow God's commandments...here is a story of those who did...etc http://www.randomhouse.com/features/krakauer/ and this review - for Sasun in particualr.. http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/u/...of-heaven.shtml

A very nice ideal...but people are just not ready yet...perhaps when they stop believeing in fairy tales they will have matured to the point to govern themselves... Very slanted poll BTW...and like all things of this sort put everything inot black & white when there are plenty of areas of gray...

Yes - its the consuming question of the day - as Gevo has just condemned me to such I'm a bit curious what folks think - and could it really be that bad - as some claim...I mean I have actually been to Camden NJ - and it was not pretty...could the Big Guy actually think up something worse? (well with all the various wars, diseases, massacres, plauges, pestilences I have to admit it seems he has a rather active immagination and his sadism is certainly unequaled...) Oh and a nice little bit to consider... http://www.skeptical-christian.net/article...ed_concept.html

You say "must" - well obvioulsy we have no fear of hell holding over us...thus I argue we use reason and understanding...not fear of punishment to do/be good...now wouldn't you think that this makes it more genuine..and thus more good? In other words he doesn't wish his beliefs challenged/threatened...so typical of the believer...but we thought you were more enlightened then this Sasun? ...guess not...just what does Sri Chimnoy say about this one? "when the enlightened Atheist says "who needs it?" then you must place hands over ears and repeat your mantra...is that clear grasshopper?" lol - messing with you dude...you can take it - no? I'm sure somewhere in his bountiless teachings her Guru says something about "lightening up" ..and the other guy says - "love your enemies" "Turn the other cheek" and no bacon on Thursdays...so I'm sure somewhere in there you can manage to ease it up...if not - oh well...I'll just chalk it up to failure of the individual...and not the religion...

Anoushik - Sasun didn't see any of my posts - you see he has all my posts blocked - so that his belief system can't be exposed to question...so he didn't see that...so there can be no question that good can only come through religion (wonder if that holds true for evil?)