THOTH

Ali I agree with everything you have said (and even some not said I think...for the most part) 100%. There is a forum that tried to do what you suggest - The Turkish Armenian Communications Team (TACT) - with mixed success. Like any of these forums it has recently been invaded by hateful children and there is little real activity anymore (though I think it could perhaps start up again as it appears that at least some of the regulars do check in on occasion). I must say that what you report is very good news and provides us with some hope for the future. I beleive what you say is basically true and have heard such from others. I am not without my concerns however because the mob (particualrly when backed by the Governemnt) can always hold sway over a few enlightned intellectuals and the like. So the key of course is more exposure/information/education and interchange (IMO). Would you say that among those whom you are in contact with in Istanbul (likely a more educated cross section then the average) are of like or near like mind as you? Is there common awareness and does anyone really care? I am very much looking foreward to reading more of your comments and perhaps I will look into the archives to see what you have said to others here in the past (and what they have said to you - hopefully they were polite...) cheers Winston [ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Wasn't sure where to post this article from the New york Times (here or in economic section) - but thought it would be of interest: Russia's New Reach: Gas Pipeline to Turkey By DOUGLAS FRANTZ STANBUL, June 5 — In early August, one of the world's largest and most advanced offshore platforms will slip beneath the two graceful suspension bridges spanning the Bosporus, with three feet of clearance, on its way to the Black Sea. If everything goes as planned, a month later the huge rig will begin laying a pipeline at record depths of 7,000 feet in corrosive mud on the bottom of the great kidney-shaped sea to bring natural gas from Russia to energy-hungry Turkey. The $3 billion project represents more than a daring engineering feat. Its success would represent a setback in American efforts to curtail Russia's influence in one of the world's most strategic regions. "Both economically and politically, this project is extremely significant for Russia," Fiona Hill, an analyst at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C., said in a telephone interview. "It is seen as a major coup for the Russian government." The pipeline would increase Turkey's dependence on Russian natural gas from the current 66 percent to around 80 percent. From the outset, American diplomats have warned that it would give Russia too much leverage over Turkey, and that it would constrain gas development in neighboring countries. But a powerful combination of Turkish and Russian politicians and business interests pushed the project through. Washington and Moscow have been at odds for years over the development of energy in the Caspian basin, which could hold the key to prosperity and stability in a troubled swath of land sweeping from Turkey through the Caucasus and Central Asia to China's western border. The region faces a Pandora's box of volatile issues with global implications. Among them are rising Islamic insurgency, drug trafficking, international terrorism, severe poverty and potentially explosive ethnic tensions. Four nations bordering the region have nuclear weapons — China, Russia, India and Pakistan — and Turkey is a NATO ally mired in an economic crisis. Few nations are more vulnerable to energy blackmail than Turkey, which imports 98 percent of its energy. Since it began phasing out coal in the 1980's, demand for gas has increased steadily. Two-thirds of Turkey's gas comes from Russia through two existing pipelines, and demand is expected to quadruple by 2010. Not only is Turkey the region's biggest customer, it is also one of the few with the hard currency to pay. To meet Turkey's rising needs for gas, the American government had favored a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Turkey that would cross the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan and Georgia — totally bypassing Russia. Turkmenistan has ample natural gas, and Western companies were willing to finance and build the line. Russia countered with a proposed 750-mile pipeline from its Black Sea coast to Ankara, the Turkish capital. The line would have three segments — separate land sections in Russia and Turkey connected by a 233-mile leg across the Black Sea from the Russia port of Dzhubga to Samsun in Turkey. It is this line, known as Blue Stream, that won out and is now under construction. Blue Stream faced technical and financial hurdles, but it had strong support from big Turkish corporations doing business in Moscow; the corporations saw it as a way to strengthen economic ties between the countries. This support translated into backing from Turkey's powerful Motherland Party, which has been aligned with big business. Mesut Yilmaz, now one of Turkey's deputy prime ministers and head of the party, was prime minister when the Blue Stream project was negotiated. Despite concerns in the government, he and Viktor S. Chernomyrdin, Russian prime minister then, signed the deal with great fanfare in Ankara on Dec. 15, 1997. "The military and the Foreign Ministry had reservations about increasing our dependence on Russian gas, but Yilmaz went ahead," a former Turkish official said. Mr. Chernomyrdin stepped down as prime minister a few months later and became chief executive of Gazprom. The Russian company is supplying gas for Blue Stream, and its construction arm, Stroitransgaz, is in charge of building the pipeline. Mr. Chernomyrdin left Gazprom last year, and is now Russia's ambassador to Ukraine, but his sons own about 12 percent of Stroitransgaz. American diplomats stopped short of outright opposition to Blue Stream, but they cautioned their Turkish counterparts against relying too heavily on Russia, according to American officials. They also warned that Blue Stream threatened the Turkmenistan pipeline. In September 1999, Mr. Yilmaz had dinner with several Clinton administration officials in Washington. He was out of government then, though he remained head of the Motherland Party. "We really don't like this project," an American official told him, according to a dinner participant and an official who was briefed about the conversation. "Let me be plain," Mr. Yilmaz was quoted as replying. "I'm going to get it done." A week later, Mr. Yilmaz went to Moscow with other Turkish officials and businessmen to reassure the Russians that Blue Stream was on course, according to two who joined the trip. Last month, after the Turkish press raised questions about the Moscow trip, Mr. Yilmaz told party members that he had no official contacts in Moscow because he was not part of the government at the time. Turkey has continued talks with other potential suppliers, and officials said they expected Iranian gas to arrive through a new pipeline late this year, but no Turkmenistan gas is in sight. Industry officials and American diplomats said the Turkmenistan pipeline was essentially dead from multiple wounds. A $2 billion contract for the pipeline was awarded in 1999, but the refusal of Russia and Iran to resolve territorial disputes in the Caspian Sea stalled progress. Prospects also were damaged by public anger on the part of Turkmenistan's president, Saparmurat Niyazov, against Turkey for proceeding with Blue Stream. The demise of its pipeline means that Turkmenistan will probably sell its gas to Russia, increasing Moscow's control over supplies in the region, or to Iran, both prospects that dismay American officials. Russia may also use the Blue Stream line to sell gas from Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan to Turkey and southern Europe, Zeyno Baran, an analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said in an interview. "Russian policy is to maintain and even increase its control over the transportation networks in and out of the Caspian as well as Turkey and Europe," Ms. Baran said. Not everything has gone Russia's way. American diplomats were heartened in March when Turkey agreed to buy gas from a new field in Azerbaijan. The gas is expected to arrive in late 2004. Blue Stream has run into its own difficulties. The project is a year behind schedule and has been caught up in an investigation of corruption at Turkey's Energy Ministry. Fifteen people, including former senior government officials, have been charged with bribery in contracts unrelated to Blue Stream. Energy Minister Cumhur Ersumer, a key figure in Mr. Yilmaz's party who negotiated the Blue Stream deal, was pressed into resigning after the scandal, though he was not accused of wrongdoing. Prosecutors confirmed that they were looking into aspects of Blue Stream, including the no-bid contract to build the Turkish part of the pipeline and a $52 million advance payment to contractors close to Mr. Yilmaz's party. Despite the controversy, the land section from Samsun to Ankara is complete, and work is expected to start soon on the undersea segment. To lay the line in the Black Sea, Gazprom formed a partnership with Eni S.p.A., the big Italian energy company, and its Saipem construction unit. The deepest pipeline to date is 5,000 feet in the Gulf of Mexico, but Eni executives said they were confident their giant offshore platform can lay the pipe at 7,000 feet. They also developed a special coating to withstand the corrosive hydrogen sulfide concentrated on the sea bed. "We are 100 percent sure we will not fail," Stefano Bianchi, general manager of the project for Eni, said in an interview. Even with Blue Stream gas, Turkish officials said they needed multiple suppliers and pointed to the March agreement to buy Azerbaijani gas as an example. They also dismissed the idea of Russia's cutting off supplies for political reasons, saying it would be too damaging to Moscow's economic interests. Russia demonstrated its willingness to use gas for political leverage last winter. Much of Georgia went dark when Moscow stopped the flow to underline its demands to keep military bases there. The gas resumed after Georgian officials pleaded with Moscow, and a company with close links to Gazprom is now negotiating for a stake in Georgia's gas distribution network. Privately, American and European diplomats speak of concern about Russia's renewed drive to exert control through such bare-knuckle energy tactics rather than military intervention. For their part, the Russians view United States policy as an effort to weaken their influence in the region. Increasing gas sales is also vital to Russia's efforts to rescue its own beleaguered economy. Americans counter that their intention is to promote economic cooperation and independence. The Americans won a major round last month when the companies involved in a pipeline to carry oil from the Caspian port of Baku, Azerbaijan, to Ceyhan on Turkey's Mediterranean coast decided to proceed with the next phase.

Aurguplu - I thank you for your refreshing commentary. And yes I would be interesting in hearing more. You seem to have a very balanced and knowledgeble perspective concerning (as you call it) the events of 1915. If you don't mind my asking - how did you aquire such knowledge and perspective and have you lived outside of Turkey as well. (and do you work in the government? How is it that you can do so yet commuicate with Bektay etc?) I am curious as my experience in Turkey showed me that some Turks do understand - basically - what happened - though not always with great details. Those who think they know a lot tend to regurgitate the party line and be anti-Armenian (not all are this way of course and I have met several [impressively] well informed Turks on the internet. Nice info on the Diaspora Armenians in Turkey. We are looking forward on more about this (from some others who are there I think) and concering Berktay and other aspects of "our" issue as it plays in Turkey. Pleased to meet you by the way...I am new here since you last posted. [ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by circassian: as we speak there are circassians dying in kosovo & chechnya. they are killed by slav's ambition to reach & control mediterrenean. you are bit shameless Thoth. I had briefly taught that you were different since your own admission about " best friends " being turkish. We are being killed by Ivan & all our neighbours(armenians) can talk about is what happened to them in 1915. Ivan takes my home & he might come into your houses tomorrow. nobody talks about 30 million lives that Stalin has took. Varsa Yoksa ermeni cani , sanki baskasinin yasama hakki yok.. That's why your plea is not valued. poor little Thoth ; he thinks he is being progressive & enlightened LOL. First I think youare oversimplyfying. (the rational for persecutions/slaughter of Muslims in Chechnya and Kosovo). In each case you must be aware of the role of each group in instigation of conflict - though I agree with you and am in opposition to the "solution" enacted by both Serbs & Russians. I know that you have not seen my various posts in other forums - but let me assure you I have been supportive of both Chechnyans and Kosovo Albanians (etc) (and Bosnian Muslims) against the atrocities being commited against them - and I have taken some heat from Orthodox for this. Again, I urge you to not presume that you know my positions/motivations etc. I see no conflict - or reason to give up Armenian Genocide issue - because of tragedies such as this occuring today. As a matter of fact I see recognition of the Armenian Genocide as a positive step for prevention of and understanding of these type of crimes occuring today. BTW - I share your concern(s) about the Russians - very much so. i wish them to be out of Caucuses entirely and leave the people there to themselves. Unfourtunatly - in current context - this would mean doom for Armenians - so yes - from a purely partisan (but hopefully temporary) perspective i must support some Russian involvement. And of course we can't just wish them away - now or in the future...it is their "near abroad" and they are a power and it will continue to be in their interest. What the Caucasian paoles must do is to find a way to coexist peacefully. Russia (and Turkey and Iran) will just have it easy with this divide and conquer approach under current circumstances..as they have had in the past.... I hope you agree - and I caution you to not presume to know my mind - or that of other Armenians. It seems that you have taken a rather partisan view as you accuse me/us. Perhaps it is you whose progressive rhetoric is perhaps not heartfelt.

Agree for the most part. However many people have never even heard of an Armenian - are ignorant of the genocide (and perhaps even historical events in general) etc etc. And didn't you say you spent some time in the States? hey - people here will beleive just about anything...and they have no basis to know differently. So to some degree I am worried - sure most can see through Turkey's bull ...but. then of course we have all seen how readily the media will jump to support a particular government perspective. We see the Bush administration making some moves based on oil/gas interest and they also view Turkey as a stalwart military ally....so again, anything is possible...

I would be happy to post my commentary/analysis of the Hitler quote issue - perhaps on a thread under Genocide (if there is any interest). It was Zareh, I think who made a very cutting critique of the Feigal book. i may have it archived, and I commented as well - but it is Zareh's post i think you remember (as it was excellent)

I've often though "gee, maybe the Turks were right - after all there were only about a million of us who lived in Anatolia anyway according to the Turks, and the vast vast majority were unarmed...and mostly women, children and old people after the men were taken away...yet these young tykes with wooden guns and old men with pitchforks managed to maraud around the countryside and do in 2.5 million Turks! What a fanatic fighting force...far to dangerous to leave alone & undisturbed...." quote:Originally posted by MJ: Dear Boghos, You should've posted this material in the Humor forum. [ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Have any of you actually ever read this guys stuff? Its pretty poor. But of course certain Turks - who hunger for this sort of thing - are eating it up. My only worry is the general lack of knowledge/education of people in the world. Show it on TV, print it in a book, write a letter to the editor....and many are bound to beleive it as 100% true....

quote:Originally posted by circassian: We rather forgive the russians but never forget what they have done / doing to us. you have dedicated lots of time to tell everybody how horrible it was in 1915 for humans from caucasus. perfect smoke screen for russians to hide their deeds in oppressing & killing & exterminating "unwished neighbours" of armenians in cauasia i.e muslims of caucasus. p.s my village house was made of earth & trees both of which freely available to dwellers of the anatolian land for centuries. It doesn't seem to me that you have forgiven Russians. And to forgive are you saying that somehow what was done was justified? or have the Russians asked you for your forgiveness? And yet you claim they are still at it with the Chechens. Somehow I think your claims here are the smokescreen and that you wish to have your cake and eat it too...as it were. Its funny - for all of the evil you calim the Russiansd have done in the Caucuses (and I supose Crimea as well...)(and I do not dispute this) we find a great many Muslims and multi-ethnics about...however in Anatolia where are the Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians? Could it be that what was done to the Armenians (and these others) was in a sense worse than what occured to your people etc by the Russians? I find this talk of smokescreens and great plots by you (a Turks) very funny. The Republic of Turkey is clearly the nation perpetuating the biggest smokescreen of all...and you are part of it aparently... ps. there are no Armenians left to take you up on your offer...and do not think that we don't understand that the Ottoman/Tukish powers that be and that have been were not often so generous with such offers (witness the settling of various Muslims [Kurds!] on and taking of Armenian lands/properties, the "encouragement" of Armenian out-migration...and finally the "final solution" to the "Armenian problem" So please stop insulting us. With every post you grow more transparent. [ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by Berj: If we could only collect as much population as Israel has collected. After all that killings, sufferings and hostile surrounding they chose to stand for their land. Good for them! Bravo, I should say. I have yet to hear a Jew say: "I'm not going to Isreal because it's not muti-ethnic.I need more Arabs there". Well this is much of the problem - Zionism had no place for the Arabs - for which Palestine was also their homeland. If the Israeli's could abandon their apartheid like approach to non-Jews and become inclusive they would only benefit. As it stands they are a doomed nation. No nation so small can last forever in the face of such continued and determined opposition. And as you hint in your post concerning Karabagh and Natchevian - demographics are against them. I have also met a number of Jews who now live in the States as Israel was just not a great place to raise a family - due to the violence and for other reasons. I understand why you admire the Israelis - and I admire them as well and feel good for what they have achieved for their people...but at what cost? It is long past time that they politically diversify and abandon the Zionist principals. If they do not soon, IMO - it will soon be too late for them. The Arabs aren't just throwing rocks anymore...soon it will be much much more than that...

quote:Originally posted by naira: We have already lots of American armenophiles with their money and skills in Armenia. I don't think they care about Armenia, at all. Shushi Paul should be resettled by azeris who left this region. I don't think that this town should be ocuupied by armenians. Azeris should return to their homes. A peaceful resolution of Nagorno-Artsax conflict must include also the resettelement of Azeris in Shushi. This is how a real multi-ethinc society should deal with all ethnic communities. Azeris are not our eternal enemies. [ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: naira ] Excellent points - I agree entirely. (basically with everything you have said so far in this thread). Armenians who fail to see this may wake up one day and find they are no more (that the world has past them by or that they have antogonized their neigbors and will pay for it - after all we are small - that will not change) - we cannot exist in a vacume - and we cannot hate indescriminatly. Sure we have our reasons to dislkie/distrust the Turks and Azeris - but we must move beyond this. They are not going away - we must learn to live as neighbors and to learn to get along as modern humans...do we really want to end up like Israel (or worse) with enemies all around and within...living in fear, watching our children being killed...and for what? [ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by naira: "Armenia for Armenians" stuff folks always existed in Armenia, Harut. This are the same people who in France say "France for French, in Russia they say "Russia for Russians in Germany they say Germany for Germans. In every country I lived or I'll live I'll always say. France is mine, Germany is mine, Russia is mine, Armenia is mine. Common now take this all from me, you dick-heads, skin-head! Do you understand what I mean, Harut. I sincerely hope you do. We have some little fascists in Armenia and that's a big victory. Arms will never be fascists. Remember this! Because there will be Armenians like me who will say to them "**** you! Armenia is for all" [ June 03, 2001: Message edited by: naira ] Exactly! Superbe...magnificit! well said...

I meant to actually address some of your poinst specifically...perhaps I can do so briefly... quote:Originally posted by circassian: Turks do/did lots of things wrong , including massacering the innocent & killing the bystander as well ; just like the other nations which we both know who but don't need to mention it here. ---I am glad that you can at least admit that Turks have massacered innocents. There are others on these forums who actually deny this.... My heart is as white as it gets , I am not anti armenian , I believe in your right to exist just as much as the turk does. ---I understand how you see it this way from your perspective. Regardless, the end result is that you are anti-Armenian because of your level of opposition to the cause we hold most dear - the memories of our families so brutally and needlessly killed. You may want to ammend your statement :..as much as the turk does." To many this may imply the opposite to what I think you were trying to convey. I also extended my deepest sorrows to any one who lost a member of their family , thank you for mentioning the fact that we do have the same/similar experiences. ---Yes, which is why your opposing us is most sad. You call it tomato I call it tomatoe What I will not do is to condemn the people who housed me , fed me & gave me a safe place to grow up. Not without an unrefutable evidence from TC government itself. However hard for you to understand it is , that I have choose to put my trust in TC as you succintly put as an"educated guy" . ---TC? Turkish Constitution? Anyway, I think only a fool would actually trust the Turkish (or really any) Government...but specifically the Turkish Government whose foundations are built upon and built upon perpetuation of so many lies... I shall reserve the right to judge until the Ottoman Archives are fully analized & it's contents revealed. ---?This is really a non-statement, a cop out. Will these archives...even if "fully?" opened ever bu fully analized? And of course, I don't trust the Turkish Government. I certainly don't trust them to basically incriminate themselves (direct predecessors). There is plenty of evidence in other archives...plenty I regret to inform you that I also know that this really makes you distrust me & disagree with my stand. ---What is this with trust? - I can see what you post. You are not all bad, but there is a fundemental corruption, IMO. That I disagree with your conclusions etc goes without saying Fortunately that is not due to my indoctrination but yours. If you weren't contidition to a) distrust every turk distrust everybody else who disagree with you on this issue of armenian genocide. ---Now here is where you are on shaky ground. I have had no indoctrination. Really. Neither from my family or any Armenian organization. My family was from Istanbul (pretty much) and was fully emershed in Turkish/Ottoman culture, growing up none of this was much a subject of discussion (at all), and I have had little contact with Armenians until adulthood, and then that contact has been apolitical. I have had more contact with Turks growing up (outside my family) than Armenians. So your acusation doesn't fly. Why would I distrust Turks? I count several Turks among my good friends. I see that we are more alike than different...etc It is your bias which shows here. And I don't necissarily distrust any who disagree with me on my views concerning the Genocide - plenty do. Some are not fully informed of course, others (like you? LOL) amay have some hidden agenda, of course, and others still may just see things somewhat different - and legitimatley. Of course any who deny that it was Genocide are just (at some level fundementally) incorrect (or fail to understand the definition of the word)... - You would then see by declaring genocide without central & authorititive verification of your claims only forces people like me to where I am at the moment i.e desperately trying to keep hard line greywolves at bay while trying to engage with sometimes viciously hostile , other times as sweet as honey and rarely politically agitatitive(see Domino) diasporean armenians. ---First of all the word Genocide was coined to describe the Armenian situation. And its not just "claims" of Armenians. It is eyewitness, scholarly and governmental accounts from the period - including those by Ottoman allies and by the Ottomans themselves (please read transcripts of some of the trials after the war) I diss the your cause because you are presenting it as a benchmark for humanity. This part I have to object because if you have really cared about "HUMANS" in general rather then "ARMENIAN HUMANS" in particular then you could have rightfully expected my support for your fight to have your people's suffering marked in the history as a benchmark to humanity in general. ---Yea right. Who are you to say this? First of all - you are fundementally a denier - and are acting to "save" the reputation of your people (a lost cost - particularly when you perpetuate your myths and continue to deny). Armenians have every right to demand recognition. As Turkey resists so it will consume much energy on our part - but don't think that it is our or my only concern...again you presume too much...and it speaks to your biases So if you want all the people to follow your higher ideal for humanity then make sure your strategy does not use any turk as escape goat. ---Well...ultimatly it is a subset of "Turk" etc...and its funny that you talk of scapegoating. And if it wasn't Turks - who the hell did exterminate the Armenians? I mean the Germans are clearly identified with the Holocaust - but does this necissarily mean that they have been scapegoated? No, and though there is a certain stigmatism for a people who have done such in the (recent) past - everyone understands it was Nazis and particular events and influences on their society whioch caused such - these things can be examined and causation and other issues loked at objectively. Same for the Turks and CUP etc etc - except the Government/media/people of Turkey (for the most part) are like the "see no evil, hear no evil",etc monkeys and refuse to examine such or budge an inch from their very false and unfoutunate denial. I rather look silly then be considered as a betrayer of turkish nation and nobody is forcing me to say that. ---Well thats it isn't it. So if you tell/admit trruth you see that you are betryaing your nation - so you would rather lie/obscure. This is a fundemental flaw to your and many other Turks reasoning IMO. In fact your current posture/attitudes etc are what is betraying your people and nation. I truely believe that you are out to get me & my family & you are just waiting for conditions to be "Right". ---Well again, here you have revealed yourself - your paranoia. This is a statement about you - it has nothing to do with me or most Armenians. I don't think turkey should open up the pondora's box implementing sevres , you probably believe the sevres treaty to be fair & just in it's contents. In reality if implemented , it would make you my new landlord. Since when armenians controlled the eastern anatolia & made it theirs ? Circassians have always travelled to anatolia on horse back , nobody ever told me that you guys owned all of eastern anatolia. ---I've discussed Sevres etc already...again this is a non-issue - it bespeaks of your paranoia and your conditioning where you have been made afraid to even consider Armenains points because of these false notions that your Government propaganda has made an issue specifically to raise the hairs on the Turk's backs. Sure there were lots of armenian villages & lots of you always have lived amongs turks in the cities but since when you have ever took eastern anatolia from the turk in a military battle ? ---Your point? Look you don't want to go here - trust me on this....(it is a very silly point of yours - again bespeaks your biases etc) So you can see i have lots to say about lots of things and none of which is anything fun to read for you. ----No fun - yea, its tragic (the level of your buy in to your false reality) I am also sick of ignorant europeans/americans who have never heard of what happened to my people yet they are accusing me & my family personally of killing the armenian race. ---Not all are ignorant (and we feel the same concerning the Turkish people - particualrly those who mouth off hate and know nothing really about what they speak). I and most Armenians know better than to accuse you and your family personally etc - comon now really... Largely thanks to people like you who have been indoctrinated to believe "whatever" the cost in terms of personal slandering & indivisual accountability are , it's worth it because the receipient is turk. People like me who have been indoctrinated...well I've coverd this haven't I? And slandering etc...please...

Circassian - this post does more to illustrate your biases then make any comment on my (suposed) ones. First of all I have been to Turkey and have known (and been friends with) Turks all of my life. My sister's best friend for most of her life was Turkish - my family had no antio-Turkish thing going on - ever. I have no ill feeling toward the Turkish people...it is you who seem overly defensive concerning these issues and become defensive at any hint of critique. It is possible to love and care for your country and also be critical of aspects of it, its people, and of its past. I can certainly do this with the USA and the actions of some people here (and Armenian/Armenians). But you, and a very many Turks cannot do so (at least to outsiders...the wall is up...the Turks have been wronged and never the other way around). The Genocide of Armenians is (proven and accepted) fact. Your not accepting it means nothing (sorry). My saying this and attempting to achieve recognition of this (by Turks and others) is in no way an attempt to put down the Turks. In fact I wish your people the very best...but your govenment and its policies are another matter. You are attempting to twist the argument - in fact the non-recognition of the Genocide is what is anti-human. It is precisely my concern for (not just my people, but) humanity and hopefully perhaps avoiding such behavior in the future - by not letting it go unrecognized - that I and most other Armenians (I think) fight so hard on this issue. That you utterly fail to understand this is obvious. Like some other Turks I have come accross you begin to attempt to speak for me and other Armenians - but you have so missed the point that you look very silly/sad. You are so worried about "betraying" your nation that you cannot step back and really see what it is we are saying. I for one do not advocate taking back of lands or any such thing - and neither have most Armenians - pretty much ever (in recent times including during WWI). The treaty of Sevres is basically moot...not that I don't think Turkey/Ottoman Empire - as an instigator/aggressor in WWI and ultimatly a loser did not deserve punishment for such (and for proving utter failure to govern its own people - after al basically all non-Muslim minorites were exterminated or driven out)...but due to Ataturk and his (brilliant) manuverings you were able to go unpunished as a nation..and have been able to more or less successfully avoid coming to terms with the crimes of the period. But this is really too bad for you - because outsiders (at least, and even some Turks - whose numbers are growing) can see what it has done to your society (corrupting the political leadership and media) and phyche (read Ackam for sopme insight on this). And now the Kurds have been suffering due to such attitudes. Ultimatly recognizing the Genocide and coming to terms with it (and seperating yourself from the continued wartime Ottoman/CUP [false] propaganda of WWI) will do Turks as much good (if not even more) than it will for Armenians. So many of your points in this post of yours are just incredibly silly and revealing of your enourmous blind spots. I have not been indoctrinated my friend - in no manner have I been - it is clearly you who have suffered such I am sorry to say. Your various accusations do not pertain to me, nor to most Armenians. Your stereotyping of Armenians because of the few extereme few would belike me branding all Turks as Pope killers because Mehmet Ali Acka was a Turk. So please, pay attention to what we are saying...and get off your preconcieved story line which has very little real merit. I can see you are an educated guy - and have made some nice points concerning the Circassian situation and the Russians etc. But how can you expect any sympathy from Armenians when you won't give us the time of day - you obviously don't really listen to what we are saying.... quote:Originally posted by circassian: Turks do/did lots of things wrong , including massacering the innocent & killing the bystander as well ; just like the other nations which we both know who but don't need to mention it here. My heart is as white as it gets , I am not anti armenian , I believe in your right to exist just as much as the turk does. I also extended my deepest sorrows to any one who lost a member of their family , thank you for mentioning the fact that we do have the same/similar experiences. You call it tomato I call it tomatoe What I will not do is to condemn the people who housed me , fed me & gave me a safe place to grow up. Not without an unrefutable evidence from TC government itself. However hard for you to understand it is , that I have choose to put my trust in TC as you succintly put as an"educated guy" . I shall reserve the right to judge until the Ottoman Archives are fully analized & it's contents revealed. I regret to inform you that I also know that this really makes you distrust me & disagree with my stand. Fortunately that is not due to my indoctrination but yours. If you weren't contidition to a) distrust every turk distrust everybody else who disagree with you on this issue of armenian genocide. - You would then see by declaring genocide without central & authorititive verification of your claims only forces people like me to where I am at the moment i.e desperately trying to keep hard line greywolves at bay while trying to engage with sometimes viciously hostile , other times as sweet as honey and rarely politically agitatitive(see Domino) diasporean armenians. I diss the your cause because you are presenting it as a benchmark for humanity. This part I have to object because if you have really cared about "HUMANS" in general rather then "ARMENIAN HUMANS" in particular then you could have rightfully expected my support for your fight to have your people's suffering marked in the history as a benchmark to humanity in general. So if you want all the people to follow your higher ideal for humanity then make sure your strategy does not use any turk as escape goat. I rather look silly then be considered as a betrayer of turkish nation and nobody is forcing me to say that. I truely believe that you are out to get me & my family & you are just waiting for conditions to be "Right". I don't think turkey should open up the pondora's box implementing sevres , you probably believe the sevres treaty to be fair & just in it's contents. In reality if implemented , it would make you my new landlord. Since when armenians controlled the eastern anatolia & made it theirs ? Circassians have always travelled to anatolia on horse back , nobody ever told me that you guys owned all of eastern anatolia. Sure there were lots of armenian villages & lots of you always have lived amongs turks in the cities but since when you have ever took eastern anatolia from the turk in a military battle ? So you can see i have lots to say about lots of things and none of which is anything fun to read for you. I am also sick of ignorant europeans/americans who have never heard of what happened to my people yet they are accusing me & my family personally of killing the armenian race. Largely thanks to people like you who have been indoctrinated to believe "whatever" the cost in terms of personal slandering & indivisual accountability are , it's worth it because the receipient is turk. [ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

quote:Originally posted by naira: I have already, a very bad reputation. I can't again launch myself in explanations which abuse the use of "foul" language. I never use the sexual attraction for promoting my ideas ...never...THOTH. I count on you to beleive me at least on this one! Understood (to both)...(and I do believe you)...you have no need here I think (though you gals do know the methods of making men agreeable, as it were...just fact)...(however)your insights speak for themselves....

Hurt me, hurt me, harder, harder, yes mistress whatever you say, I can be good, really....etc...LOL BTW was it something I said? (LOL) Or just general practice for us "bad" boys. whack whack whack etc. I saw you & Thorny's comments concerning having guys under your control...I bet...(perhaps it is an angle for influencing the UN [predominantly men...no suprise eh?]) Back on topic (a bit more perhaps...sorry to [again] spoil the fun atmosphere) - one vote (a women as it turns out) killed this Canadian resolution. Does anyone have any detail on her motivation...etc?

Circassian - yea - I understand your "no comment" - and perhaps it is best for you. I find it funny/odd that for someone whose family has experienced much the same sort of tragedy as the Armenians have (basically all of us have experiences such as your families...and some with even more gruesome tales) that you have nothing in your heart for sympathy or support for the recognition the Armenians are attempting. That you do not bespeaks to your level of indoctrination - both intellectually and reaching down to blacken your heart. That you have opposed Domino's very even handed and factual presentations with such vigor is evidence of this. You seem to never miss an oppurtunity to diss the rightful and fully justifiable/suppportable Armenian position. And that is just too bad for you. How silly you will look one day (and think of how we percieve you...an educated guy, with similar family experiences...yet he cannot step out of his Turkish blinded vision to understand and see that the Armenians of Anatolia are no more - and it is not they who are responsible for such...can't you see this? Why so defensive? Whay cannot Turks (of past) ever do no wrong?) etc

Naira - I would never wish to temper or squash in any way your idealism - the world need more like you - people who care. I am idealistic - but also realistic (and perhaps pessimistic) on things...what can I say? The things you are advocating are good ideas - my "knocking" them does not mean that I do not support what you say - only that I have certain doubts due to my perceptions of how the world/these organizations work. Again, you are correct that such ideas may seem outlandish or unachievable - but you never know - reality can change - and suddenly they are mainstream or somehow enacted - so do not give up. Again though - the UN has already soft peddled the Genocide issue. It has been recognized (Domino can precisely reference under what context) in a limited manner. However again, the UN is a highly political body - and the political actors are governments who will act in their own interests or for (odd) reasons. Any action must be taken using alliances or done at the right time - where perhaps some nations are upset at Turkey etc for other reasons ands are likely to support something seen as against it - etc ...this sort of thing. Also the various UN bodies of which you speak have very specific charters/missions (and tend to be more responsive to US interests then the body as a whole...thus US friend of Turkey...little/no action against it...sure some condemnation for human rights abuses etc - but where is the teeth in such? Santions, restrictions? no way...) Additionaly - Armenia is on shaky ground. Armenia rightly wants beneficial relations with Turkey and thus can only push the Genocide "thing" so far. So there are a number of factors. Granted, of course, we would all like to see recognition in the UN - but don't hold your breath. Sorry again for all of my pessimism...and again even so I like your ideas and your points regarding the social issues and disenfranchised people...etc...and linkage with Armenian Genocide experience. I think this is perhaps fruitful thinking and you never know, perhaps there is room for leverage here...

Domino - as usual you impress. Keep up the most excellent work. With those such as you around the McCarthy's and others of his ilk have no chance (then again perhaps I am giving too much credit to the intelligence/knowledge of the average bloke...). (and speaking of...there is another non-Turkish Genocide denialist (that we both know so well) who is also married to a Turk who is again active on the forums...yes. I have seen him [you know where] and am debating whether to join the [anticipated] fray....) For those of you who are unfamiliar with Domino I really must tell you - he has been doing a very comendable job in defeating the lies of the denialists. He has amassed quite a collection of documentary evidence and has put it to good effect. He deserves all of our gratitude for his diligent efforts.

Naira - all very good points - and I understand where you are going with the socialissue (of course by this definition genocides are occuring pretty much in every nation to some degree at nearly all times...can you really expect a body of Governments to act against itself?) - however I think that you are perhaps expecting to much (particulalry within this [Armenian genocide]context). Armenia/Armenians are not (yet?) significant enough to force anyone (UN) to do much of anything (I mean look at our less then stellar sucess thus far in general...and we are dealing with what should be pretty obvious...no?). Also - this is an issue of the past sure - as it is unrecognized - and Armenians keep the issue alive - it is current - but only in a partial context. For the most part the UN etc have more pressing current issues - I hardly think they will spend too much time worried about Armenian issues (Genocide) or even this social (ie wider) aspect that you mention. It is just not a fire so it can only garner so much attention. And as it is of nebulous nature it does not have a natural constituancy to press for such (the opposite in fact - as you are asking governments to basically condemn themselves)....etc (sorry to say such...as I certainly very much share/understand your concerns). Minorities and non-conformists are forever vulnerable I think... Points concerning Genocide as rallying point for continued Armenian identity also very well taken. To some degree, perhaps, this issue is why i am involved at all, as I am more or less fully assimilated (though non-conformist/idependent minded etc) American (who refuses to be walking billborard for brand names & the like...etc).... MJ - I understand as well. It is likely too much to hope for to think that Armenian (Diaspora) political leadership will change. The existance of Armenia provides another avenue of course...and oppurtunity...on a number of fronts...and we must wait and see as this temporary situation (Karabagh) winds out and, of course, a generational (& more) transition in Turkish leadership passes before we shall see what will come of the different perspective(s) and motivations. Additionaly, academia and media will play a role...and of course people such as ourselves...and the Ceyhuns, Filiz's and others of like mind. Time does not stand still. Precognition has never been proven accurate...we cannot predict our future..we can only act in the present (with perhaps an eye further...and hope...)

MJ - I see it this way - Turkey is not recognizing the Genocide - so Armenians in the Diaspora must work to obtain recognition elsewhere. This both puts some pressure on Turkey (and makes Turkey look pretty lame when they attempt to counter as they do) and it keeps the issue alive - which is in itself important I think. If Turkey recognized the genocide there would be no reason for anyone else to - would there? Obviously, at some point, the Turks must recognize the genocide and condemn the CUP. Is your question more properly regarding where and how we (in the Diaspora) should best expend our energies? Or will this track really ever get us anywhere - because it is basically only confrontational toward Turkey (and fuels the counter movement in Turkey and with Turks abroad etc) and is in some ways not very effective (as these resolutions are feel good but don't really do anything..no boycotts or such etc or plan of action). Another issue, of course, is that there are those in the Diaspora heirarchy (Church and lobbying organizations & elsewhere) whose positions, whose power base as it weere, revolves around perpetuation of this issue - being at odds with Turkey and rallying around (and even profiting from) "Genocide"...what is their incentive to do anything but the same and would/could they necessarily do otherwise? What can and should Diaspora Armenians do diffrently - in your opinion?

Cicassian - Its different because Militia movement is not considered an ordinary political party - most of us think they are kooks. They would never get anywhere near 20% of the vote etc. Yea - MHP is like American militia movements all right - a bunch of thugs and crazies - i agree...

Well Garo - I must admit I missed Art's post and I have only read page 2 (more recent)posts - but from what I have read I really haven't seen anything that bad that would require censorship. Obviously, perhaps, some of us have different ideas about what is and isn't appropriate on a public forum and I might be more liberal than most (though I understand not having ****agraphic level of discussion or cursing etc). I just did not see such and don't see why the subject matter - even if slightly, perhaps graphic, would need to be censored. just thought I'd put in my 2 cents. Certainly I repect your right to decide such.

So spank me!

I personaly don't feel that it is for me to dictate how anyone runs their life. I certainly do not think anyone's choices should be limited. Many people have a long way to go for even a basic understanding of this - some will never change. But I think it is important that mothers impress on their daughters that they can be anything and do anything they desire - that they need not be self-limiting. (and the media [TV/movies/magazines etc] has an effect too) If women accept the constricted roles then what is the incentive for (most) men to accept any change in such. Certainly women in the workplace helps enlighten somewhat(though some predjudices persist). I have had several truly excellent female supervisors/bosses (and a few not so hot as well). There is oppurtunity for women and in certain environments (urban)/nations etc I think women are reletively unconstrained in their personal lives/relationships as well. I don't know the answer in terms of removing stigmatism for (what is percieved as) "bad/wonton" behavior. I myself like "bad" girls! (LOL) So what can I say....?