Juggernaut

You needned worry about the facts that I have presented being fiction, if you so wish I can browse the internet and find supporting material to back my claims, even though I have gotten almost all of my historical knowledge through books, and it would probably take me a while to find the stuff.

quote I agree, but the "other side of the story" is also BASED on the facts. We take the facts and interepret them in different ways = 2 stories. On some occasions however what you may percieve as fact is fiction.

Some disturbing facts about Freemasons and Freemasonry: 1. The organisation is secretive, religious to a limited extent, and elitist to a certain extent. Also as one would conclude it weilds significant political and economic power. 2. At least on one occasion the Masons have attempted to force their 'religion'(way of thinking) on the rest of the populance, in France during the Revolution. When Robespierre (a popular Jacobin) came to power in 1892 he initiated the 'Great Terror', established a new state religion (abolishing Catholicism) with himself as its leader in the worship of the 'Supreme Being' ie. God. 3. The significance of Masonic power may be illustrated through the study of American national symbols and the US$1 bill which has the Masonic 'all-seeing-eye' and the pyramid. 4. Practicing Freemasonry has been branded as heresy by all major Churches, including the Protestants and Catholics. 5. There is no factual evidence that suggests Freemasonry is linked to the Knights Templar, as claimed by them. On the up side i am aware of numerous charity works that are conducted by this organisation, but I fugure this is done mainly to promote themselves in a good light. And no, I am not a conspiracy theorist, I am simply trying to inform. [ July 04, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ]

Your views are quite 'moderate', maybe you should come to this forum in the evenings . Also isnt it much more interesting to have a person who opposes your views, instead of having everyone without a clue or agreeing, I certainly prefer the former, so as to know the other side of the story.

There is another Armenian Pro tennis player, who actually plays for Armenia, Sargis Sargisian. He is currently ranked in the low one hundreds (this will improve as a result of Wimbledon), his highest ranking was like 54 in world, and two days ago he lost to Sampras in 3rd round.

Also, I think the Diet even established a universal currency for the three members (Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan) as a result of the collapse of the old Russian economy. Though dont quote me on this one, untill I check it for sure. The Diet was successful considering the circumstances, with Georgian withdrawal it collapsed. As for having me having no clue, I suggest you prove your points before making such a claim. My Armenian history may be dusty, but claims that the Diet only lasted 2-3 days are redicullous.

Man, this is gonna take a while MJ, quote The problems Georgia has with Russia, are of Georgian and not Russian or Armenian making eg. supporting the Chechen rebels. quote I dont seek to please you or dissapoint you, I come here to express my opinion on matters I have interest in, and my opinion does change with the time of day. For example in the morning I am a moderate, gradually however as the day goes on, I slowly turn nationalistic, escpessially after the evening news . quote I hope this was a general statement, otherwise I take it that you are trying to insult me, just because i said that war would be more of a disaster for Georgia than Armenia, it would still be a disaster for us, and so I do not support it. Nevertheless in some rare circumstances war and not diplomacy is the only solution. Should we have talked with the Turks when they invaded the newly independent Armenia after the Genocide (1918-1920)? After all we had tried talking to them before and ended up being almost wiped out. quote Neither ashamed or proud, just informing you of who we are and how we survived for so long. quote Yes, this is what I was trying to say, you probably miss-understood. The Genocide was a direct result of the lack in adequate political thinking. quote Yes, but Georgia also had no other avenue, as the Russian Monarchy was no longer there to protect her, a new protector had to be found.... quote Agreed quote I dont know where your getting your facts from, actually the Diet lasted for more than a year 1917-1918, it was formed as the Bolsheviks gained power, and dispanded about half way through 1918, a far cry from 2-3 days wouldnt you agree? Moreover it proved to be very successful at bringing stability to the region, keeping it away from anarchy and the communists. quote Again I suggest you revisit your sources of information. The battles were fought AFTER (1919-1920) the Diet had disbanded and Armenia had become totally independant. quote This statement is so absurd, that I needned comment. quote As evident from your knowledge of post-Genocide events, I think I have more of a clue than you do. And Georgia DID go to war with us, after we had defeated the Turks, because of 'border disputes'. And I dont think there are any Georgians living on the Armenian side of the border, not any significant number anyway. quote The Diet was a quasi-Alliance against foreign agression (ie. primarilly aimed at Turkish but also the Reds(Russia)). quote Please enlighten me... quote Yes, but Georgia was starving largelly due to miss-management, Armenia was starving mainly due to war. quote You obviously dont watch the news too often. And guess what has happened to Macedonia (who incidentally invited NATO to invade Kosovo from her territory because she aspired to join that organisation). Now there is a full-scale war between the Albanians residing within Macedonia and the Macedonians, and is NATO doing anything? NO! In fact last week NATO organised for a large group of rebels to be taken out of encirlclement with their weapons! NATO has also failed to disarm the rebels in Kosovo, as promised to the world!! quote Perharps, but how many Georgian live in Armenia? quote Yes we also extended our hand to the Ottomans in WW1, and what are we left with? Our toes.... quote It may not be a fee for visa, it may just be a fee for crossing the border from Armenia to Georgia, I do not know for sure. Fact is my mother was in Armenia in 1999 and ALL her relatives are from Akhaltsikhe area, and they visit each other frequently, and she was informed by them. I certainly dont see a reason why her relatives would lie to her and she would lie to me. Cheers

quote How doesnt it? No other nationals are slapped with the $200 dollar fee, its simple discrimination. And yes, a smaller reason may be the extra cash, but they would be raking in more money if they tax others also, dont you think? quote Its an official fee for obtaining a visa. quote As pointed out by Aaron it is significantly better, at least they would be treated like humans by the authorities. quote I am sorry to have dissapointed you quote I am sorry to dissapoint you again, as stated by a Roman Emperor during the long wars with Parthia (Persia) in regards to Armenia: quote It is through great political thinking that we have survived through history, the source however dried up around 300 years ago (due to lack of education), it is our duty to repleniss it and utilize it if we as a nation are to exist much longer. quote Well it has been a province at least on one occasion, during the rule of Tigran. Also one small Christian betraying another Christian nation in a sea of Islam (and other invadors at times), can in my opinion be branded a traitor. quote 1. First nation to withdraw from the Trans-Caucasian Diet after the collapse of the Russian Monarchy, thereby leaving us to the wolves (Turks). 2. War to be in control of the majority Armenian populated Akhalkalaki region. 3. Allience with the Germans and the Turks in anticipation of total collapse of the Eastern Front 4. Cut off our energy supplies (coming from Russia) in 1991-1993 by diverting gas/oil etc. and blowing up pipelines (and their still at it from time to time). I think thats enough, and thats only this century. quote Am I saying they arnt, they want to join NATO now, but so did Macedonia, I dont know if they (Macedonians) still do. quote Agreed. quote I wouldnt use the word disaster here, more like 'set-back', there isnt much trade going on between the two countries and all produce going through Georgia is heavilly 'taxed', due to corruption, bandits etc. quote Spare me the moral talk, look at the US and their foreign relation, but this doesnt stop them from rulling the world. quote I wish I could think of the future that way Aaron, quote Absolutelly, and they been made ashamed of who they are by the authorities, that is why a great number of them, if not the majority, have been 'forced' to change their surnames. Cheers

MJ, Firstly the information on $200 dollars is true, coz my mother while visiting Armenia 1.5 years ago wanted to visit her native village in southern Georgia, but then she found out that to cross from the Armenian side to Georgia, with a non-Georgian passport costs $200 visa charge (or somethin). The only Armenians left in Georgia are olf folk, all young families are mostly in Russia. Once the old folk die out, there wont be anyone left. Moreover Georgia fears a similar situation as in Artsach, she allready has two separatist republics within her in Ossetia and Abkhazia, another separatist region may be the end. The people of Akhalkalaki are very war-like, much like the Armenians in Karabagh. quote Georgians fear Armenian separatism, same as Ottomans in WW1 and before, there is your motive. Yes a conflict would be a disaster for both countries, but more so for the Georgians. quote Actually I express the general feeling of the Armenians [ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ] [ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ] [ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ]

MJ, the Georgians are carrying out a deliberate policy in trying to make the Armenians leave, fo example to enter Georgia an Armenian citizen must pay US$200 (a years salary), and those Armenians that allready reside there are leaving in droves because of unemployment etc. If a conflict were to errupt between the Armenians and Georgians in the area, then the Russian Army would be a great millitary as well as political asset.

Yes, I was in Sydney while the Olympics were on, unfortunatelly I only bothered to go to one event (boxing), after it finished I realised on how much I had missed out. DAMN!! hehe, now Sydney is in a post-Olympic recession .

These are grave developments, if Russian forces are completelly withdrawn, we shall see a further decrease in the Armenian population in southern Georgia, due to Georgian nationalism. I should know, my mother is from the area.

I think you guys have posted, just about all I know . On a side note I find the history of the millitary orders, escpessially the Templars and Hospitellars very interesting. A quick search in Yahoo will bring up the relevant sites. Another aspect of the Crusading period that deserves a mention is the Mongol Invasion of the early 13th century. It may have been mentioned in your posts, but on skimming them, I didnt notice anything. Anyways the Mongols invaded during the reign of Ogedei Khan and the general who led the invasion was a Christian convert (there were many Christian and Muslim converts among the Mongols, but most didnt take religion seriously either way), I forget his name. To the Armenians this was a new hope as the Europeans were no longer interested in the Middle East. The Armenian King at the time (whose name also illudes me at this moment) signed a secret alliance with the Mongol Emperor in the Mongol capital in the East. Anyways to make a long story short, the Armenians and their new aliies proceded to raising the Muslim cities in the area, north of Palestine. One of these happened to be Baghdad, at the time a prospering Muslim urban center. The rampage continued for a number of years until Ogedei suddenly died and the Mongols halted their advance in anticipation of what was to take place at home. Meanwhile a Mongol advance army was desicivelly defeated at Ain Yalut by a much larger force of the Mamluks of Egypt. If Ogedei had not died, the Mongols would have surelly taken Egypt also (the last major Muslim power of that time), and the Middle East may have been an altogether a different place. some food for though. Cheers.

welcome , hehe Im new also, but I'll be spending most of my time in politics and history. Love and Romance are just not my cup of tea