phantom22

Azat, Yes, I am guilty of hijaking this thread, but you helped along the hijacking. My background is almost all Armenian, but I was raised as an odar Christian. I am sick and tired of this President referring to himself as a Christian, which he is clearly not by his actions.

For a joint Armenian-Kurdish task force to be formed certain agreements would have to be made. I predict that Iraq will ultimately not hold together and break into three nations. Then the Armenian and Kurdish nations can lobby Turkey to treat their fellow compatriots within Turkey better. Turkey can be a truly democratic nation if it wants to be, treating all with justice and respect.

Karen stated "But in Turkey, publicly acknowledge any "gyavoor" blood equals to suicide. And that's in 21 century!" This should show Europe that Turkey is just like Nazi Germany. When is the USA going to stop supporting the Turkish regime?

The Turks are living a "big lie." Hopefully the Pamuk story will snowball to expose these other issues during a time that they are "under a microscope."

Obituary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carol Matthau Actress and socialite who was a model for Holly Golightly Eric Homberger Monday August 11, 2003 The Guardian The career of Carol Matthau, who has died age 78, gave her many vivid roles: as semi-debutante at the Stork Club; a teenage bride of the Pulitzer prize-winning author William Saroyan; an actor and author; and during a long and spirited marriage to the actor Walter Matthau, an A-list Hollywood wife. Carol's fabled wit, given full vent in a memoir, Among The Porcupines (1992) was feared and cherished: "I married Saroyan the second time because I couldn't believe how terrible it was the first time. I married Walter because I love to sleep with him." Article continues -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Her mother Rosheen Doree, unmarried daughter of immigrant Jews in New York's Lower East Side, was 16 when Carol was born. When the father abandoned Rosheen and her baby, she was pushed into a loveless marriage with philosophy professor. When a baby from that marriage was born, the philosopher demanded that the illegitimate child, Carol, be sent for adoption. Her mother walked out, found a job at a hat factory, and placed Carol in a foster home while she worked and saved money. In 1933 Rosheen bustled into the foster home, collected Carol, and whisked her off to Park Avenue, where her new husband, Charles Marcus, lived in luxury. A co-founder of Bendix Aircraft Corporation, Marcus warmly welcomed his stepdaughter. Two years later he learned that his wife had hidden the existence of another daughter, Elinor, who had been left in a foster home when they married. With equal generosity Marcus welcomed his second stepdaughter to his 18-room apartment. The transformation from the Lower East Side to Park Avenue was the stuff of immigrant daydreams. Carol Doree adopted her step-father's name, and as Carol Marcus was sent to the exclusive private Dalton School in New York. Her golden blonde hair, and sharp, worldly humour, made her a favourite with the other socialites at Dalton, like Oona O'Neill, daughter of the playwright Eugene O'Neill. Carol became friends with Gloria Vanderbilt, "little Gloria", object of the most famous custody case of the era. While still teenagers, as Truman Capote recalled in Answered Prayers, Carol was a fixture in café society, along with "Gloria and Honeychile and Oona and Jinx, slouched against El Morocco upholstery ceaselessly raking their Veronica Lake locks". In 1985 Carol's son Aram Saroyan published Trio: Oona Chaplin, Carol Matthau, Gloria Vanderbilt, Portrait Of An Intimate Friendship, a vivid memoir of his mother's world in café society. In 1941 Carol was in Hollywood for the (first) marriage of "little Gloria". Her ever-ambitious mother introduced her to the bandleader Artie Shaw, who recognised the pouting 16-year old as Big Trouble. He passed her along to the writer William Saroyan, nearly twice her age, who was then at the height of his literary fame. Their first marriage lasted for six years. A son, Aram, was born in 1943, and a daughter Lucy in 1946. Life with Saroyan was no honeymoon. He was an inveterate gambler, and emotionally and physically abusive. By the time they divorced in 1949, her children had seen her thrown down a flight of stairs and choked by an enraged Saroyan. At their remarriage ceremony in 1951 Charlie Chaplin made a gracious speech about love. But within six months she again walked out on Saroyan. And did not look back. Moving to an apartment in New York, she completed a novella about her early life, The Secret In The Daisy, which was published under the pseudonym Carol Grace in 1955. Old friends like Truman Capote and Gloria Vanderbilt rallied round, and her name once again began to appear in the showbusiness gossip columns. Eating doughnuts at 3am at the Fifth Avenue entrance of Tiffany's with Capote, he said: "You are Holly." She was one of many New Yorkers who claimed to be the model for Holly Golightly, the heroine of Capote's Breakfast At Tiffany's, which was published in 1958. Capote advised Carol against sleeping with poor people, and it was advice which she happily accepted, except in the case of actors. While playing understudy to the secretary in George Axelrod's Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter? she met the actor Walter Matthau, then unhappily married. An affair led to marriage in 1959. Carol's Jewishness was carefully disguised, and she was introduced to friends as an archetypal shiksa, Carol Wellington-Smythe Marcus. Although they never became observant Jews, in later years the Matthaus attended synagogue in Hollywood and supported Israel. Beyond good sex and a sense of humour, they shared an experience of New York which bound them powerfully together. Matthau, who solemnly assured interviewers that his father was an orthodox priest, and that his name was Matuchanskayasky or Matuschanskavasky - the spelling kept growing wilder with each telling - was the son of impoverished Russian-Jewish immigrants named Matthow. After her husband's desertion, Walter's mother was left to support her two sons by working in the garment industry. They lived in cold-water flats on the Lower East Side, fleeing before rent became due. He worked as a newsboy, and was a regular at card games on tenement roofs. Matthau's breakthrough role came in 1965, when he played the shambling sportswriter Oscar Madison in Neil Simon's play The Odd Couple. He repeated the role in the acclaimed 1968 movie, playing opposite Jack Lemmon. They became fast friends. The wisecracking, mournful grumbling of Oscar Madison made Matthau's career. The Matthaus were at the heart of the Hollywood establishment for three decades. They had one son, Charlie, who became a film-maker. He later directed his father in The Grass Harp in 1996. Carol co-starred with Matthau in the only film he ever directed, Gangster Story, a low-budget film which dropped unmemorably out of sight on its initial release in 1960. They were a famously devoted and funny couple. "I never mind my wife having the last word," he remarked. "In fact, I'm delighted when she gets to it." · Carol Matthau, writer and actor, born September 11, 1925; died July 20, 2003

With ardent fanatic conservative Armenian politicans California and that famous talented but pychopathic author who ruined our name in "Hollywood" what would you expect? For Peck to tell Carol Saroyan Matthau at whose home he had dinner every week that he was of the same nationality as her former husband, who would tell her that she was a lousy Jew while he was having sex with her?

Bin Laden family's US exit 'approved' BILL ANDREWS THE United States allowed members of Osama bin Laden’s family to jet out of the US in the immediate aftermath of September 11, even as American airspace was closed. Former White House counter-terrorism tsar Richard Clarke said the Bush administration sanctioned the repatriation of about 140 high-ranking Saudi Arabians, including relatives of the al-Qaida chief. "Somebody brought to us for approval the decision to let an aeroplane filled with Saudis, including members of the Bin Laden family, leave the country," he said. Mr Clarke said he checked with FBI officials, who gave the go ahead. "So I said: ‘Fine, let it happen.’" He first asked the bureau to check that no-one "inappropriate" was leaving. "I have no idea if they did a good job," he added. Dale Watson, the FBI’s former head of counter-terrorism, said that, while the bureau identified the Saudis who were on the plane, "they were not subject to serious interrogations". The plane is believed to have landed in ten US cities picking up passengers, including Los Angeles, Washington DC, Boston and Houston. At the time, access to US airspace was restricted and required special government approval. Tom Kinton, director of aviation at Boston’s Logan Airport, said: "We were in the midst of the worst terrorist act in history and here we were seeing an evacuation of the Bin Ladens." But he said it was clear the flight had been sanctioned by federal authorities. Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador to the US who is said to have organised the exodus, met President George Bush on September 13, 2001, two days after the terror attacks. It is not known if they discussed the repatriation plan. The White House has declined to comment on the claims, but sources said the Bush administration was confident no secret flights took place. Mr Clarke said he did not recall who requested approval for the flights, but believes it was either the FBI or the State Department. But FBI spokesman John Iannarelli said: "I can say unequivocally that the FBI had no role in facilitating these flights."

So now you all see what a big fraud Bush is. Do you remember the VIP treatment that Bin Laden's relatives received right after 9/11 being whisked out of the US on luxury government planes? Iraq is all about OIL interests alone. Get It? Can't openly criticize Bush since we are a police state now. The major media outlets are totally silent on what is transpiring. Bush/Cheney should be impeached and since the Republican Party won the last election, McCain should be appointed VP and then assume the Presidency. Won't happen though, since the Dems don't want to give a Republican a head start.

It is sad that the Kurds did not realize in 1915 that they were being used. When they were freely killing Armenians in the name of Allah, little did they realize that they would be the next in line for slaughter. With the Armenians out of the way, there were no allies left to join with them when the Turks commenced the slaughter of the Kurds.

I see that MJ's name has been removed from Arpa's posting. It is best that such names not be posted here. Perhaps we can get together in an assembly hall and discuss our issues face-to-face.

I see that you have all IGNORED my comment. Go back to gorging yourselves on Cheese Boeregs, yughod Pilaf, and Che-kuftas. Then wring your hands when somone dear to you or whom you respect drops dead at a tender age.

"The chickens are coming home to roost." The effects of the massive incompetence of the Bush Administration are just beginning to be recognized. Iraq will most definately break into three nations. Only a brutal dictator could keep the factions under one roof. The National Guard is so decimated (a large % of them are in Iraq and Afganistan) that they could not mobilize quickly enough at home. Soon the inflationary bubble will burst (even Greenspan predicts this). I would have been pleased with any of the other 3 in 2000. McCain would have to be sensitized on Armenian issues, but he would have stood heads above "W" as presidential material. You can thank the Christian Fundamentalists for this mess.

It is best that help come from the ROA or our compatriotic organizations. I have supported both sides.

The Vieux Carre will be restored, as it is the engine of the Louisiana tourist industry. We have the technology today to bring back that district. Similar efforts succeeded after the Loma Prieta earthquake.

Nakharar, That is the same game the Turkish officials use today. When they go to Washington, they act as if they are the tolerant liberals and the Armenians are the intolerant conservatives. They look into the faces of US officials AS IF they are the ones being wronged. As for being fooled, my great-grandfather and his sons were cordially sharing a meal with the same Turkish officials who ordered their brutal execution just hours later.

Armjan, I am not 100% Armenian. Part of my heritage comes from the area of northern Iraq. About 300 years ago, some of my ancestors had the good sense to move north and marry Armenians.

Why should such a great Armenian pass on at such a young age? A physician no less. Same with the late Bob Kevorkian. We can ring our hands or we can try to insure that this does not happen again.

From the times of British control and under Saddam Hussein the Sunnis, a relatively small minority, were in control. They do not want to lose their primary role. They do not understand nor care about majority rule. The Shiite factions are fighting among themselves on religious and leadership grounds. Since when is not religion the cause for so much bloodshed? Sadly, 1000 women and children were trampled to death. I do not see the Sunnis ever agreeing to anything other than being back in control.

Iraq continues to be a place of madness. It is best if all concerned give up on maintaining the Iraqi state, which was artificially created by the British. Yugoslavia only held together by the brute force of Tito. Iraq can also only be held together by a brute force like that of Saddam Hussein. The Turks will just have to deal with their nightmare of an Kurdish free-state.

Alternate ego or DOPPELGANGER?

Russia belongs in the EU now, no question there! She would bring much natural resources into the EU. Culturally, she is closer to the EU countries than Turkey is. Does Turkey have a St. Petersburg? Istambul does not compare as a European place.

Arpa, I would just love to put you and Ara at a dais together and have you two "duke it out." There are so many Turks with blinders on. There are also many Armenians with blinders on. I have found you to be a "dyed in the wool" Armenian, and I am sure that you are proud of this. However, what we have been led to believe is not always the truth. Have you not heard the ballad "Tsoodeh, Tsoodeh, Ays Archagin Mech, Amenpahn Soodeh?" Much is concealed in this world for economic and political reasons. It was only after his death that we had revelations about the Black daughter of Strom Thurmond. This whole Mamikonian/Bagratuni business was not stated by me but by eminent and respected ancient Armenian historians. Peck's wife was obviously contacted and she did not refute the story that my overseas cousins had alerted me to. Now that he is gone there is nothing to be lost by the revelation that he kept secret while he was alive. The world is complex. Being Armenian can be a liability in some circles.

These captive peoples demonstrate that the situation in Turkey is different than the face they want to show to Europe. Go to Europe and you will find numerous instances of villages of a different nationality within national borders. What are the Turks afraid of? Armenia is a small country.

For many decades the Turks ignored us. It is apparent that we are getting their attention. It is apparent that we are having an international effect upon their ambitions. They know that they can not continue with the path they have been on. Cicek can rant all he wants, but it is apparent the the Armenian issue is one of the points that will impact their EU membership ability. As for Weems, he is DEAD. Christianity free to operate in Turkey when the authorities do not even let churches fix their roofs? When the revelation that Ataturk's adopted daughter was Armenian created hysteria in Turkey? Don't waste your time on him. It is a reflection of their frustration.

Someone should trace both Cicek's ancestry and his financial accounts. Who are his parents and grandparents? What part of his personal financial wealth is based in confiscated Armenian properties and accounts? Çiçek unmoved on Armenian conference - PART II Kemal Balcı The New Anatolian / Ankara Çicek: My opinion hasn't changed about the Armenian conference Justice Ministry's Cicek calls on nationalists to protest against the conference Claiming that irresponsible broadcasts and reports by the media have provoked social tension based on ethnic discrimination, Cicek said that the govt has remained silent to prevent such incidents and to keep them out of the public eye Justice Minister Cemil Cicek said that he hasn't changed his mind about the Armenian Conference, postponed in April and now scheduled for next month bringing the issue to for once more. Cicek remarked that such a tendentious and a narrow-scoped conference couldn't be of a scientific approach. The minister is imploring those who deny the "genocide" to protest against the conference, as well as political parties and associations with "nationalism" in their names. He also wants scientists and intellectuals to follow suit. Defending the idea that irresponsible broadcasts and reports by the media have provoked social tension over Turkish-Kurdish discrimination, Cicek clarified why the government has remained silent on these events saying that it's an attempt to prevent such incidents and to keep them off the agenda. The justice minister spoke to TNA: TNA: You protested against the Armenian conference by saying that it's tendentious and succeeded in postponing it. However now the conference will be held at the personal request of the premier. What do you think about what's happened? CICEK: No, no. I don't ever get involved in disputes with the prime minister. I'm a man of my word. That conference wasn't aiming to search for the truth. Now we'll have another opportunity to see whether it's tendentious or whether it encompasses different opinions. When the conference was again brought to public attention, I phoned many people. For instance, I called Yusuf Halacoglu (head of the Turkish Historical Society, TTK) and he said that he hadn't been invited. What's this conference supposed to be then? Is a gathering of those who share the same idea or a search for truth? This is what I think. TNA: The government seems to be indulging in a bit of opportunism. It's trying to use the conference as a platform that could reshape Turkey's image before Oct. 3. CICEK: No, no. I'm just giving my opinion and I'll go on talking. The "genocide" claims will be irresponsibly imposed on this country and in return no one will have a say. I wonder for how long the public will go on like this without saying anything. If there are people who are offended by the so-called Armenian genocide, then they should say so. I don't think that people have voiced their opinions enough. TNA: You're calling on the public to protest against the conference. However, isn't there a chance that you'll provoke them? CICEK: All of my statements are made within the legal framework. Everyone should get up and say out loud what they think in a civilized manner. It's not enough for just one person to voice an opinion on everyone's behalf. People should voice their opinions within legal boundaries. I mean, the public shouldn't wait for the justice minister to lash out. TNA: Have you ever discussed this issue with Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah Gul? CICEK: No, he issued his own statement. He said that he would attend the conference if its participation were widened. What he means by 'widened participation' doesn't concern the number of those there but rather the variety of participants' opinions. Let's see whether or not different opinions will be represented at the conference. Until now though there's been no indication of this. Why would this be Cemil Cicek's issue? There are hundreds of historians and academics in this country. Everyone should voice their opinions, without affronting others or proposing illegal activities, to show their sensitivity to the issue. There are parties and associations which have "nationalist" phrases in their names and people who have adopted nationalistic views. They shouldn't take this lying down. TNA: What do you expect from Oct. 3? CICEK: We're waiting for the talks to be set out. It's expected to be a very tough period. If those against Turkey's full European Union membership come to power then things will be harder than before. However we've been given a promise by the EU. They go back on their word. We believe that the accession talks will start. TNA: If the negotiations don't start, does Turkey have any other options than the EU? CICEK: We haven't come to that point yet so it's inappropriate to comment on it. Otherwise we would be opening the way for those who are anti-Turkey. We've kept our promises. If they don't keep theirs then how can they talk about modern values? TNA: As discussed at the last National Security Council (MGK) meeting, are you worried about potential threats to our neighbors Iran and Iraq in the short term? CICEK: Every development in Iraq already concerns Turkey. Developments in Iran not only concern Turkey but the whole world, such as the use of atomic energy. Our desire is to establish peace through meetings without causing tension. I think this is what globalization means. Even when you don't have any effect on or have contribution to make to an issue, the consequences could also affect you. For instance, if you've predicted that a barrel of petrol will cost a maximum of $40 while drawing up the budget, but it shoots up to $70 a barrel, you could be negatively affected by the increase in price, especially as Turkey is a petrol importer. They're our neighbors and developments, whether good or bad, affect us too. We always hope for the best. TNA: There's been serious public tension recently. Does it concern you? CICEK: Even if there is a problem, if you exaggerate it, the problem will become grow out of proportion. The media has real responsibility on this issue. If you repeat reports of an event 50 times, exaggerating them, then people may be provoked. I'm not accusing the media but they have a big role in raising or lowering tension. If events are reported on without being exaggerated, then they'll remain local and the problem can be solved by the security forces. The same scenes of incidents are broadcast at least 50 times a day on TV programs. There are some programs that behave irresponsibly. Of course, we [political figures] have also made some irresponsible statements. TNA: Don't you think that the government is partly responsible for some of this? The government gives the impression that it's out of touch with the public and appears to underestimate incidents based on ethnic discrimination which are spreading regionally. CICEK: No, this isn't true. How can you conclude that we haven't noticed? Asking questions is easy but the answers aren't always that easy. You can't drive me into a corner with your questions! A statement such as that, claiming we didn't take heed of incidents, is all wrong. If you place too much focus on an issue, then you're leaving the door wide open for an issue to be overexposed. Medical experts once warned me, while I was preparing an anti-drug campaign, that if the publicity was overdone then it could backfire and have a reverse effect. If we discuss this issue too much then we could well increase the number of such incidents.