phantom22

It was in poor taste, irregardless.

Domino, Armen was "just kidding around" about WHAT GROUP?? and this kind of talk is "just kidding around?" Oh, Please!

Mamigon, Thanks to your comments, I no longer feel like the protagonist in Ionesco's "Rhinoceros." If I may add to your comments, An Armenian does not have to sell out Armenians to be considered "no longer one of us." All they have to do is veer from accepted norms that have little to do with maintaining an Armenian identity.

Armen, You were joking about your grandfather boasting when he is drunk that he killed Enver because he was an avid anti-Semite? That is a joke? I know ALL the facts about the triumvirate's background. No one is pulling any wool over my eyes. Yet your comments are in VERY poor taste. One of the Turkish MIT agents who monitors this and ALL other Armenian sites has probably documented your comments and will be using them as cannon-fodder against our interests. You can discuss Jews all you want, EVEN the involvement of hidden Jews at the pinnacle of those responsible for the Genocide, and I do not "faint" as you say. I am concerned only when you have gone over the line with your comment. Armen, how old are you? I would bet that you are under 30.

Thank you, Arpa. This kind of news should be disseminated throughout the capitols of Northern Europe, North America and Australia. Turkey is at a crossroads, either she reforms herself or she will become a pariah in the eyes of the world community. The microscope is on her and so far she has scored an "F."

Et le Roi George est resté sur les vacances après le déluge.

Cheney est en vacances dans Wyoming.

I went on many a fast where all I had for days was water. Looking 35 at 60 is not something that comes easy, Azat. NO PAIN, NO GAIN.

"Verginne" also known as (AKA) "Anoush, AKA "Armenian Revenge," AKA "AR" brings this thread to "let's talk about Jews." We should be talking about Armenians, which what we do until he/she/it hijacks the these threads to a discussion of Jews. There is an Armenian nation that has to be developed into a compact economic powerhouse. There is the matter of justice in the matter of the Genocide. Yet the discussion is sidetracked to discuss Jews. This time it was Armen who brought this thread into a Jewish discussion.

Enver was a Doenmeh, an apostate Jew of a sect that the Jews did not consider to be their own. Where do you have proof that he was acting as a Jew and not as a Turk?

"Verginne," So now you are criticizing Morgenthau for using up his political capital helping Zionists? You have a one-track mind. OK give us proof that, as you stated, "Enver was a Jew, acting as a Jew." What do you have to back up your statement?

I wonder whether this Medya was truly a Kurd.

Anahid, Good that you plan to verify what you read here. I have searched for years to come up with the comments I make here that agitate some. I search the net over the last few years, but before tht my research was always in books in old archives and the like. I have spent many a day with my nose in dusty old papers three floors underground.

Your home is under water, you have no money and if you do nobody to take it to give you the food you need. They government has abandoned you. You need to eat and be warm. What do you do, but loot. This was a calculated move to reduce the number of those who vote for Democrats in Louisiana. This scenario is pure Rove. Just watch in the next election Sen. Landrieu will lose to the Republican. The vote was close last time.

Anahid, I stated that one should view EVERYTHING on the internet with a "grain of salt," not specifically this forum, and that one should get verification from established sources. If you or I were an odar reading Azeri propaganda about Khojaly, you would think that Armenians massacred Azeris, when it was the Azeri leadership who had engineered this to bring the downfall of an Azeri political rival.

Anahid, I repeat, why do you think that I am referring specifically to you? When I agree that Armenians have been Ottomanized, I do not refer to the language or the music, etc. but to the thought process of shutting up those who do not follow the traditional thinking. My family who were from historic Armenia, but had become so well-off that they held properties in Bolise, never listened to Turkish music, etc. My parents only spoke Turkish to one another when they didn't want the children to understand what they were saying, since we knew Armenian well. Both my grandfathers, my mother's sister and brother, all four of my parent's grandparents and whole families of their aunts/uncles/cousins perished in the Genocide. There are individual free-thinking Armenians, yes. This is not what Ara is referring to. It is our institutional hierarchy.

Anahid Takouhi, I was not referring specifically to you in my post, but to Armenians in general. My thinking process is that of those who initially trained me, primarily old maids who had gone to "normal schools" in the nineteenth century (late 1800's) and my Loosavorchagan Armenian grandmother who had attended French schools. My mother was busy attending to her career. Ara states that Armenian thinking and Turkish thinking are very similar. From my perspective, I would tend to agree with him. After living under the Ottomans for at least 600 years Armenians have been Ottomanized. Other Armenians lived in a Stalinist Regime. The free thinkers under the Soviets all ended up as food for the wolves. The AGBU produced a video showing where all the bodies of the free-thinkers ended up, along with mentioning how their remains were eaten by wolves. I think like an American odar. I do not have an Armenian soul. I can see things more clearly from a perspective.

Armen, Why do you proudly state this? It is wrong and is, frankly, a very stupid thing to do. You are playing into Turkish hands. Enver was an apostate Jew, a Doenmeh. What he did was as a Turk, not a Jew. Meanwhile Morgenthau, another Jew, was trying to save us.

Anahid, Take anything you read anywhere on the internet "with a grain of salt." You must go back and confirm everything in accepted sources. In my work, I hear all kinds of hearsay. Invariably the truth changes over time, not necessarily maliciously. You must confirm ANYTHING historical you read on the internet if it is not from accepted sources.

In all my reading I have NEVER seen anywhere where it states that Enver was killed by an Armenian. It is always stated that he died in battle. Let us please stick with the historical facts. Domino, an expert on these matters, has not ever seen a reference that it was an Armenian. Let us separate myth from reality.

Anahid, That the prominent architect Sinan was an Armenian is well known and has been discussed in many Armenian contexts. The other two names are new to me. Please don't approach any of this like the Turks do, outright rejecting what you see. It is possible that the information presented about the other two is true. The Turkish archives have much information about us that we have not been privy to. What happened in the far reaches of the past is inconsequential compared to what is transpiring in the present. Armenian, Greek and Assyrian church properties have been confiscated. It is almost impossible to get a permit in Turkey to get churches repaired. Turks who have converted to Christianity are being persecuted in Turkey at the same time that Turkey is trying to get into the EU. What is discussed here is really not that important. There is nothing wrong with opening our minds. What is important is "keeping our eyes on the ball" when it comes to our rights, and that is meant for Armenians in the Diaspora as well. Armenians in the ROA, within Turkey and in the Diaspora have been wronged by the Turkish state. Let them throw out these possible facts. Are we to be so mentally weak that we allow this type of discussion to divert our focus upon justice for Armenians worldwide?

Edward, I am joining a group calling for the impeachment of Bush/Cheney. Haven't we had enough? In 2000 we reacted to Clinton's actions just before the election. We were so angry with him and now we find that Hastert blamed it on Clinton while the Turkish government was arranging to have him paid hansomely. The Republicans had a candidate who would have won a much higher percentage of votes both in 2000 and 2004 than Bush did. A filthy campaign in South Carolina by Karl Rove destroyed the McCain candidacy. That he and his wife adopted a non-white daughter was used against him. Then Bush appoints first a black man and then a black woman as Secretary of State. THe US under Bush is just a mirror image of the Islamic theocracies of the Middle East. Who elected Bush? Religious fanatics teamed with fiscal conservatives and neo-con Jews.

Medya, ABIDE BY THE RULES or Movses will throw you out. Here is your answer. Look especially at the last three paragraphs. KURDS A more extensive resettlement of Kurds, from Kurdistan into Transcaucasia, started only at the beginning of the 19th century, after the incorporation of Transcaucasia into Russia. Tour Armenia The Kurdish community in Armenia is small but active. There are an estimated 30,000 Kurds living in Armenia in some 21 villages, mostly in the Aragatsotn region about 20 miles northwest of Yerevan. Others are around Aparan and Talin. There is some debate on this, but it seems evident there is a difference between Christian or Muslim Kurds living in Armenia and the Yezidis, who are Kurdish by blood but who have a unique religion. Armenian Muslim Kurds are Sunni, and primarily shepherds, who in summer live in tents while minding flocks along the hillsides near Mount Aragats. One Kurdish family lives close to the peak of Mount Aragats – the highest place in Armenia. Many Kurds in Armenia live a half-nomad life – they bring sheep each spring to the fresh pastures, where they stay until autumn. The following is from the Red Book of Peoples of the USSR (http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/kurds.shtml): Anthropologically the Kurds belong to the Balkano-Caucasian Caspian type of the European race akin to the Azerbaijanis, Tats, Talysh etc. The language Kurdish is an Indo-European language which belongs to the northwestern Iranian branch and is divided into several dialects. The Kurds of Caucasia and Central Asia speak the kurmandzh dialect. History It is not known when the Kurds first appeared in the Caucasus but single tribes were there from time to time, possibly on the look-out for better pastures. From the 10th to the 12th century the area between the rivers Kura and Arax was ruled by a Shaddadid dynasty of Kurdish ancestry. A more extensive resettlement of Kurds, from Kurdistan into Transcaucasia, started only at the beginning of the 19th century, after the incorporation of Transcaucasia into Russia. Relations between the Kurds and the Persian and Turkish authorities had always been extremely bad, the Kurds persecuted and exterminated by the thousands (a situation that has not improved even by the end of the 20th century), which led some Kurdish tribes and smaller groups to try and find refuge in Russia. They were allocated land and villages which, for one reason or another, had become uninhabited. For example, 600 families settled in Artsax in 1807. The number of migrants increased steadily until the first decades of the 20th century. The Armenians and Kurds were granted certain resettlement privileges after the Russian-Persian wars (1804--1813 and 1826--1828), especially after the Turkmanchai Treaty of 1828. The majority of Kurds settled in Armenia after the Crimean War of 1853--1855 and after the Russian-Turkish War of 1877--1878. A nomadic or semi-nomadic life was the norm until the establishment of Soviet power in 1920. Each tribe had its own herding routes -- in spring up to the mountain pastures, in autumn down again. Usually the pastureland was state-owned and the Kurds had to pay rent. Often, the lands were on long-term private lease, for example in the hands of Russian generals, who also pocketed the land tax. The archaic tribal system and way of life was preserved longest by the nomadic herders who fervently maintained the old customs. The Yezidis were especially conservative. The nomadic herders for a long time retained the black-cover Kurdish tent. In winter and in permanent settlements the farmers lived, just like other ethnic groups, in traditional earth dwellings or even caves dug into the mountain sides. Low clay and stone houses used to be built, in which the living quarters were under the same roof with the cowshed and stable. It was a feature peculiar to the Kurds to have no walled-in courtyard. The most noticeable external change of sovietization had taken place in the type of dwelling. Now the Kurds live in standardized. Some distinctive features still remain; in the Ararat Valley Kurdish houses differ from those of the locals by the absence of a terrace and a wine-press room. A distinctive feature of today's Kurdish women is their exceptional attachment to the national costume in Caucasia as well as in Central Asia. The clothes of Muslims and Yezidis are somewhat different. The Kurdish women like bright contrasting colours while a white shirt is trademark of the Yezidi. The men gave up traditional dress in the middle of the 20th century. The status of Kurds varies from place to place. The nationalist movement is the strongest in Armenia where the Kurds have always been better treated than elsewhere. The Kurdish position was discussed there as early as the 1920s and in 1925 Armenia hosted the First Congress of the Transcaucasian Kurds. The Kurdish language is mainly taught in the Aparan and Talin Regions of Armenia where Kurdish population is large. There is a Kurdological Department of the Institute of Oriental Studies at the Yerevan State University and a Kurdish Writers Union of Armenia. The Kurdish paper Ria Taza (New Way) has been printed since 1930, and there are daily radio broadcasts in Kurdish.

Opening up of channels of communication are all well and good, but the tasks ultimately are up to governmental entities. If you look to how the Kurds are treated in Armenia, you will see that they are treated very fairly and given support by the authorities. They are treated better there than even some Armenians. As I am part-Assyrian, I am waiting to see if the leaders of the new Kurdistan treat my two heritages as well as the Armenian authorities treat the Kurds in the ROA.

Azat, You have noticed that politicians often DO NOT answer the question they are asked but use the question to respond as they wish with what they had planned to say. They wait for the opportune question to bait and switch.