edward demian

Tufa in Armenia jas been priced at about $1.50 per square foot. Thats 12 X 12 inches. Thats 25.4mm per linear inch. An eighteen ton container should cost no more than $2000.00 to Israel.

some answers to your comments. It is not expensive to bring a container load of material to US from Armenia. I too thought that the shipping costs would be prohibitive. To my surprise, one can ship a container of approx 18.5 Metric tons which is about 38,850 Lbs. Actually you can cram anything in the container and the cost would be the same. Water transport is charged by the volume not the weight. However, once you get it off the boat, the container is subject to the local transport laws which makes it overweight for land transport. The cost to ship a container from Armenia to the Georgian Port of Poti and on to the US is $2500. thats less than 7 cents per Lb. How is that? ANOTHER MITH SHATTERRED. Folks, GOODS AND SERVICES ARE VERY CHEAP in the Caucasus. There are great opportunities for making money dealing with Armenia. About the comment referring to people that build mantions whille others starve. Free enterprise is proven to be the most efficient system. When I hear people from Armenia critisizing the nor haroust (nuveau rich), I can't help but think that it must come from a former Communist who lived very well on the back of the people, producing nothing, but once in a whille turning in a friend or relative, maybie a little torture here and there, and then send them to Siberia so they wont come back to tell others, all the whille shopping at priviledged Party Only stores, living in the best Housing, (free)whille a quarter of the population went through the meatgrinder. Yeah these people had no skills then, and they are obsolete now. They are reaping the benefits of a free society. Perhaps we should apply the same penal laws on them for treason and worse, for all their past crimes. The rich people of today produce goods and services and are rewarded for their efforts. Parasites get what they deserve. About the Church. The money saved was money made by old ladies and widows, most of which have been long dead. It started with small donations, but compounded interest made all the difference. Once we reached $400,000 than we started to earn $25,000 a year just in interest. We also donated money to other Armenian charities and Organizations. We have had a very hard time holding on to this money. Between the church trying to take it away from us, and thieves trying to embezzle it, its been a fight. Why survive as an Armenian, well if you don't know the answer to that than perhaps you don't deserve to survive. I said that Armenia needs the Diaspora. What would Israel be without their diaspora. Armenia without the diaspora would be another Georgia or worse. Armenia should sustain the diaspora culturally and in return the diaspora sustains Armenia financially. But for that to work well, we need to get the illiterate dinasaurs out of the Government and replace them with young fresh, educated Armenians with a clear vision for the future. What vision does the Armenian Communist party have? A vision of Stalinist days gone by? The Germans outlawed the Nazi Party after the war because that party was recognized as being the greatest disaster that ever happened on Germany. The Communist party has to go for the same reason. Universal Armenian suffrage for all Armenians in the diaspora is the only way. Automatic dual cityzenship for all Armenians? Subsidized repatriation to Armenia should be another. We don't need the rich people to go back as much as we need the poor Armenians languishing in the four corners of the world, to populate the country. We should people Karabagh with a million Armenians. We should have a land rush by 300,000 Armenians on Nachichevan. Than we can have a vote on whether it stays Azeri, Becomes Turkish or seeks independance. What do you think the outcome would be then? Thse ideas are too far fetched? It's the Vision thing. You either have it or you don't. We don't have leaders. However, I still hope. All I can do is take the criticism and like Noah, keep building that Ark. Lond since after your 100% armenian kids are assimilated and gone, my quarte armenian chilldren will repopulate Armenia. Think about that for a whille. "The comments above are esoteric generalities and not directed against any one particular forum member"

I'm glad to get a response from my comments. However, My comments were addressed to a srictly Aarmenian audiece. You all missed the point. I was refering to the white genocide. The red one we know about. I was trying to make a point that as Armenians we need to accept mixed marriages between Armenians and Americans of various white nationalities. I care less about the Turks and other Muslims and their nitpicking about who persecuted whom more than they. Yes I can get along with Turks, and others. But when the battle lines are drawn, as they will be one day, we will have to choose sides. I would like to see the Armenian minorities throughout the world numbering twenty million, not 200,000. For that to happen, we need an attitude of inclusion not seclusion. If we intermarry with the Western European, we should embrace the offsprings of those unions, so they will grow up with the Armenian feelings that I have, and join us in the final battle against the Invaders. To point to the Roman way 2000 years ago, has no relevance to today. The Romans conquered, but after conquest, the vanquished had an opportunity to become a Roman cityzen, and still keep his religion and language and nationality. As to the Europeans conquering others, those others conquered Europe whenever they could. Beside, I think that the European culture is superior to the Asiatic, Amerindian, Aboriginee, African, New Zeland, South Seas Cannibals, and others. I know this is not politically correct. I don't care. It's true. All these other cultures have interesting features, amusing customs, etc. But so do the monkeys and the chimps if you watch them long enough. Sure, with enough bananas, you can tech a monkey to drive a car, but can you teach it to do a good tuneup? I hope I insulted all the Turkish sponsored groups, who disect the comments we Armenians make on this forum. How else can one explain the fact that I got a reaction months after I made the posing. I also noticed that you latched onto my real last name, long after everyone else forgot it since I only mentioned it once. Is that supposed to intimidate me? Surely, you must realize that I won't be intimidated by Turks, keeping lists of the panellists real names. I was warned not to use my real last name, and that person was right. I prefer that we stop wasting our efforts in idle useless banter with the enemy and redirect our comments and efforts toward our goal. Victory over Turkey. What have you done for Armenia in the last six months. I donated $200 towards the Armenian Roads in Karabagh, and I sought out an Armenian Foundry with the ability to manufacture one product for me here in the US. I once said that, if every Armenian business man in the diaspora buys one Armenian item from Armenia, Armenia would have 10 times the present economic grouth. The Turks are smart enough to fear our economic potential and ability. We should be smart enough to act upon that ability. Ghetze Hayutyuna, Miayn Zenkov e Hayotz pargutyuna. Anmahatsan Vartananz.

lets face it. The typical Jew is is an ungrateful selfish person who cares more about profit and advantage than truth or compassion. Their cynicism is reflected by their politics. They see themselves as special and the rest of us as consumers. A typical Jewish inside Joke: "Why did god make Gentiles? Someone has to pay Retail" "Jesus saves, but Moses Invests." Before any of you anti semites get all excited, No I don't agree with what happened to them. No one deserves that. And my father risked death for the whole family for helping Jews escape the concentration camps in Romania. He did that because it was right. Despite the fact that my family, Saw Jewish merchants buy the goods looted by Turks from Armenians in the town they came from. The Jews have much to Hide. From their Involvement in the decision making that led to the Genocide, to the financing of the slave trade that brought the Africans to the new world. Read your history in order to understand your enemy.

Boy, it is interesting to see how far off the mark my simple short comments are. Bu t it pleases me to see that much reaction. Let me enlighten you about The Armenians ofEastern Europe. There was a large Armenian community just north of serbia at that time. In Mpldova. If you are impressed bt a small inscription in Armenian than you will certainly be impressed by the "Germag Pert" the "White Citadel" still standing an majestic in Old Moldova which is now part of Ukraine. Over three hundred thousand people of Armenian descent still reside in the area which also has at least one functioning Armenian Monestary called Khach Gadar. This Pert was a fort built to withstand the Mongols. The Armenians were eager fighters agaist the Mongols and the Turks. Yhey were master cannoneere. In those days Armenians were hired and bribed away from their loyalties to fight as mercenaries.

There are Armenian inscripions all over Eastern Europe. Some are from the early Paulicians ( Bogomols). Some are from the Armenians who became Muslim and thus now Bosnians. Some are from the various outmigrations out of Armenia because of the Mongol Invasions. Armenian Stone Masons were known and famous, and thus hired to build churches and monasteries. Their stone masons marks are seen on the backside of every stone. Also, Armenians were very ardent prosethylizers. Our missionaries converted the Caucasian Albanians, The Georgians and the Asyrian nations. It is very likely that the Serbians were still maily pagan in the 1200. At that time, there were still pagans among the Armenians.

Wow We need to forward tis to every Jew and Jewish organization we know about. Perhaps we can shame them out of their arrogance.

I don't understand some things. Is the Armenian Economy dependant on a single private enterprise for the shipping of of it's goods? Does that enterprise have an exclusive agreement with the Georgian government? If so, what if the Turks buy controlling stock in it? Would that mean they would be able to blocade us even more? If not, is it because that transport company is the only one interested in operating a Ferry? If so, what is the big deal about buying a used ferry somewhere and establish our own line? Are the harbor facilities leasd out exclusively to this ferrying company also. If so, how hard can it be to build a ferrying facility. I bet it would cost less than that cathedral we just built. Help me out here. What is the skinny on this picture?

My first attempt to locate a business in Armenia met with pleasant success so far. The price of the merchandise and the shipping was very competitive. I will inform you all on how the transaction ends. However, if only a small number of Diasporan merchants and fabricators commit to purchasing just one item out of their total inventory requirments from Armenia, the Armenian Economy and that of Artsack could never even keep up with the manpower required to fullfill that demand. Armenia would find it neccessary to import laborers like most successful economies.

We have had the same diverse reaction from our own members as well. Some of us are practicalists and some of us are purists. We want to build something that would reawaken the Armenianess of the community. Allready this area of Southern California is all Spanish. Our chilldren are being absorbed in the Mexican community. Thete are few Native English speakers. If this last generation is lost to our culture, we will be here no more. Armenia has no future without the Diaspora. If we would have sent the money during the Communist times, it would have been sequestered by the Communists. Now we do send money to Armenia. However, If you want to talk about a waste. Talk about the Gulbenkian Millions left to charity. The Armenians get very little of it. We need churches,schools, cultural centers, cemetaries, Printing houses, libraries and Theters. Since Armenia does not really want the Diasporan Armenians, we need to think of our own survival.

Yes we are crazy. We are just 30 Armenians, and we have been saving money since 1920. We now have over a million dollars and five acres and we will build a monument to our culture and religion. Every nail driven into that church is a nail driven into the collective coffin of our enemies. Yes it is a faitheful reproduction of St Hripsime. The Architect Charlie Martin travelled to Armenia and chose that church. Of course we have tufa even in California. And a better quality too. However, the truer we stay to Armenian materials, the easier it is to gather funds. And if I were to get the stone from Ani, I would not use a sledgehammer to swat a fly. By the way guys, I allready found a source from Armenia at $1.50 per square foot of 2in. thick pannels. The local price here is $20.00 I will try the Hollywood source, but most of those guys are really mercenary and their stone is typically slabbed 3/4in. thin. They are called suppliers of flat stone as opposed to "Dimentional Stone" As to all of you that are angry, I don't understand your anger. What I am doing is Art. If I was painting would you have the same reaction? Now days, the ancient art of Masonry is dying. Very few projects use stone anymore. I am pleased with the project. If we would have wanted a Mexican style church with an Armenian cross on it, we would have bought one for ten cents on the dollar. Spane, Spane, Turki achca hane.

Hey, I post after midnight and I'm not allways at my best form. I read something and lost my cool. So what. My comments were erroneously addresed to Mj,than sorry MJ,but I'm sure that some dagen udogh Turk got it too. What upsets me is this unequal banter. The ecumenical level of the Azeri point of view protagonists are of such low caliber,that that it demeans us to engage them. Unless, we are keeping these guys around as court jesters. I was not for the TARC commission before, but secretly,I was hoping for something positive. The behaviour of the Turkish members of that group so disgusted me that I just figure that, those guys are the best the Turks have to offer. So once again. Low brow vs. high brow acumen. That is thre difference and that is why the Turks are afraid of us and that is why we will persevere.

Does anyone have a contact in Armenia for Tufa Stone? We are building a reproduction of the 7th Century, St Hripsime Church.

Moss jan Iam sure that there are some educated Azeri intelectuals, but you are not one of them. Your mastery of the English language is shallow. I'm sure that you don't even realize that by your own wording, you have alienated the very audience you were trying to reach.It is not the words; It's the syntax. Now go look up syntax. Not Sin-Tax. One would understand why, Azeri intelectuals are not participating in this amateurish propaganda game. It is demeaning. Funny thing about true intelect; Like money, you either have it or you don't. No use pretending. Personaly, I liked it better when you threatened war. I'm itching to tech you another lesson. You guys will never learn. No one will fight for you. You have to do your own fighting, and the Tatars lost everytime they tried. And next time, you will be trying to get Baku back. Union with Iran and Turkey you say. I agree. We should relocate and consolidate all the Azeris of Mongol descent in Iranian Azerbaijian so the Iranians will keep an eye on you all. The Kurds and the Talish can stay. And you would have a choice of destinations. If not Iran, Tgighistan or Lesser Mongolia.

Dear Boghos A small protectorate could get away with alot more than Armenia. I will plagiarize JFK somewhat and say: Some see things as they are, whille I see things ast hey could be. Surely,I have not seen any ingenuity from Armenia.Just survival politics. I'm reminded of rodents scurrying and hiding from danger.

Jugernaut You keep that Nazi crap up and we'll change your name to Jughead. Don't you know? Nazism,Communism,Canibalism are all out of fashion and discredited ideologies. So don't be a looser. Choose some other ideology and be a winner.

So how do we all share in your good fortune? Can you tell us where we can get copies too?

I think that it does a disservice to all Armenians to say that we are incapable of handling modern Financial Transactions.The Armenians Financial entrepreneuership saved the Ottoman empire and the Polish Kingdom during the middle ages, at least once, and carried the bulk of the tax burden for centuries. Beside, very little money would be kept in Artzackh. Most banks keep their funds in Swtzerland, or in the US. Artzach needs only to have the secrecy laws in place, and the market forces will take over. If you think that there may not be enough local talent to staff such businesses, you are right. But the local business would be negligeable. Most major funding and transactions would occur internationally, but the profits would come home, and the funds would figure into the Artsack Financial numbers. Money would become cheap and easily availlable, and the economy would take off. Foreign talent, Armenian or Odar is availlable. If Artsack were to become agood tax haven, in a world of diminishing tax havens, then the world's nervous money would actively support Artszack independance. As long as the Atsack Banks didn't get too greedy and start taking, terrorist and obvious drug money. There is alot of money in Russia and the Caucassus that seeks shelter from overzealous taxing authorities, from the local Mafia, from runaway Inflation of local currencies, and from political opponents. A small Neutral, Independent well armed "Banking Republic" would be all the world needs. And it could all be done from here, or anywhere.

Che means "not". ha is slang.Probably turkish. Actually you haveha in English slang. Ha? Ha! In Enlish is virtually identical in usage.

Boghos,with all due respect,please explain why Artzack could not be a banking center, but Lichtenstein can.

Ancient Sassoon is on the Black Sea south of Georgia.

Humor us;Please.For those of us that don't receive that channel. What ate you talking about?

No turks in Sasoon? Well,go to Page 274(Part of Asiatic Turkey, Distribution of peoples" [Frontiers of Language and Nationality in Europe by Leon Dominian published by the American Geografical Society of New York by Holt and Company, 1917] and look at the foldout map following. Also, I'm speaking of the province of Sassoon not just the city. No water? Have you heard of the Black Sea? Sassoon borders on the Black Sea. If you examine the map, you will notice small Armenian areas hugging the seashore from the 32 parallel, 33.4, 35 to 36 parallels,(just northewst of Sassoon.)again at the 40th parrallel. Lets see you challenge that. ]

When non Armenians attempt to invoke the image of dead chilldren as an intent or by product of the American bombing of Afghanistan, I invoke a mental picture of another sort. Afterthe Turks collected and killed most of the adult Armenians and chilldren they found, they movedon. Soon,the crying of chilldren could be heard everywhere. The Turkish farmers collected these surviving chilldren but soon found themselves with thousands. They wrote a letter asking what to do with the chilldren. The authorities responded with clear instructions. The surviving chilldren of Sasoon were taken out in boats, their throats slit and dumped overboard for the sharks. So I cannot but compare the accidental killing of a few Afghan chilldren to the purposeful killing of chilldren by Muslim fishermen, people with families and chilldren of their own. Even the naive Americans are waking up to the true face of Islam.

The most natural institutions to handle lending and investing is the banking system.That is the American way and it works.Money need supervision so the local banks are the only natural way to determine which projects are worthy and manage that money.So the banking systen has to be organized the American way.A strong socialist Macroeconomically pulling the strings by controlling the money supply and interest rates. All else private enterprise ownership and control. Additionally, if Artsack were to pass some bank secrecy laws, similar to Lichtenstein and Switzerland, it would attract a lot of nervous international money. That money would generate a lot of income, and all the nations of the world would clamor to have relations with poor Artsack just to be closer to the money. Dual citizenship for all persons claiming Armenian descent would be a diplomatic coup. All these ideas are too far out I suppose.