raffiaharonian

It is truthfully so but for a simple reason: People had and have the tendency to get rid off the ethical/psycological/moral burden, whereby one has to account internally to his own deeds and limits. By getting rid of the various taught and conditioned 'beliefs' , we feel free and at liberty to act as our 'hearts' desire. "no one and nothing stands on the way of humans to explore his limits...." Knowing man, and knowing what he is capable of doing, do you think we are heading towards a better future , without the limitations of beliefs and religion ? In short: Is man a better person to himself and to those around him, by not having any sort of belief in the "Higher power" ?

CONGRATULATIONS, and celebrations....... Wish you a good start and a life full of happiness and love. May your lives together shine like the that tiny little diamond.

Thanks to all of you! you are all great.......... I had a sip of wine for you as well! (sorry I am a bit dizzyyyyyyyyy. )

Love is blind ! (until you wake up one morning next to somebody that you feel that you hardly recognise and scream "what have I done?" ). Then love is not so blind, its too shiny and too strong to handle........ The 2 raffis have so similar tastes.... Smoking is definitely a turn-off , even if she was Glodia Shiffer...

Mike and DoC, you have to see a professional doctor pretty soon........ Guys we are loosing them, is anybody in here a doctor? Not you Levon, you are a dentist, don't pull Mike's teeth now, maybe later.........!!!!!

Harut jan, I was joking with you. (because you were asking about him a week ago.) Reading his email sent to MJ and me, you can see that he is becoming personal eventhough we have never met, we don't know each others' backround etc.etc.etc. The 'yar' is an armenian 'dear'..... If I have anything to tell you , believe me I'll be straight.

Dear Martin, No need to worry about Iranyar. God bless him. I am Armenian and NOBODY in this world can change that or even effect me, especially a liar (remeber his lies in Cyberiran about MJ having Steve being bitten in LA ). Apparently he started missing us , or he was not given enough attention in the other sites he is 'preaching'. Well to tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind de-banning him and let him back. What harm can he do? Most members are clever enough to communicate or ignore him! I had the feeling that he has started e-mailing some members, especially the new ones. Basically I was right. If you are reading this Iranyar, I have nothing to say other than 'GOD bless you.' See Harut yar, never get personal and stay away from trouble.

"Revenge" ? Even the the most dishonest Turk can admit that the Revenge coming from Armenians is a laughing case. With the exception of few and recorded (and punished) asala actions, as a whole and as a widespread policy, the Revenge is absent from the Armenians. It is as though the word Revenge does not exist in the Armenian dictionary. I am not claiming that we are a nation of angels, but nothing , absolutely nothing can compare to the widespread and animalistic behaviour of our long time neighbours! My grandfather withnessed with his own eyes the burning of "Holy Mother Mary" 's church in Zeitun, full of women/children and elderly by the brave and loyal Turkish bandits and army personel. He was on the opposite hill with other boys who had escaped captivity. How can you describe acts like this one ? How can you expect me to forget ? Mind you that my grandfather never used the word 'Revenge'. Although he always wished to go back to his anscestoral lands. Once he told my father "if we travel by plane from X to Y, can we see Zeitun from above. Can I see my town , my house ? " Poor grandfather , he was indeed an angel... God bless his soul and the millions lost....

Keep up the good work Harout. This is the spirit in which all Armenians should work.!

Boghos this is the way a think about my 'hayrenik' too ...... The serenity of the environment , the blue sky , the high mountains and the ancient churches that lift your spirit. I still remember my visit to 'Haghpad', 'Hagatzin' , 'Karni -Keghart', Ashdarag , Khor Virab , etc.etc.etc. A little 'sourp-sourp' prayer still echoes in my ears..... This is why I still insist being an Armenian! N.B. -This may be a good answer as why rich Diaspora Armenians prefer donating money for the restorations and building of Churches! Emotions...........(plus a probable favourable sit in heaven? ! ? !.....)

Guys, Art and Richard, please behave nicely to a visitor. Where is the well known Armenian hospitality? There are thousands of yards that seperate us from the Turks, but after all we are all human beings and we should treat each other with dignity and class. Please remember that a new mistake/crime does not correct another older mistake! Circacian man, "khosh geldin" (welcome) to our site. We are eager to correspond with you in a friendly manner, provided everybody behaves in a civilised manner! Of all the days of the year , you chose the wrong day to try make friends with Armenians! It is a sad day for us, but it becomes worse if educated and civilised persons like you , continue refusing to accept the dirty past of Turkey. Please feel free to talk on any subject. I invite you to visit also the History Section and read the "us vs them" topic. We are having some good discussions with a Turkish guy. You are invited to post your ideas and points also!

Dear Oz, The fact that you seem to be one of the few fortunate Turk citizens who had and have access to ‘education’ and the proper verbal/written use of the political/legal language, makes me wonder if a layman like myself have the right to engage into communication with you on a such delicate and sensitive issue, like the Genocide issue. I cannot prove it but it seems that you are one of those inner circle Turkish intellectual elite class, whose sole aim is the falsification of history and the creation of the so called ‘grey-zones areas’ in sensitive issues, whereby the humanistic and emotional aspect is absent intentionally and systematically. I am not accusing you of wrongdoing (after all,you are in your own beliefs, pursuing your country's interests )but I am wondering if I am doing a service to my country by engaging into a fruitless and ‘dead-end’ discussion with you. Not that I don’t want to, but I am not ‘trained’ to engage into a vicious circle of discussion whereby the audience leave the auditorium with a sour taste of “I don’t’ know finally what is the truth and who is right or wrong…” ‘Human Rights’ is absent in Turkey because of a single reason and that is the attitude of the ruling class, whereby the citizens are not treated as such, but as mere instruments of economical production machines and the supply of the necessary human power in the Turkish military machine. The mentality of the Ottoman Empire has not been ridden off and continues to exploit the vast masses of poor Turkish people. Talking about Human Rights abuses in Europe by Turkey is a joke that belongs in the section of political satire and the ‘jokes’ sections of children’s magazines. I am not of those who deny the existence of certain ‘human rights’ abuses in the European continent, but coming from Turkey I cannot help myself but laughing. By the treatises of Serves and Lauzane (if I am not mistaken), the issues of the minorities in Turkey and Greece have been attended. Since you are using ‘legalistic’ language, let me remind you that there is no such minority as ‘Turkish minority of Greece’. Instead there are religious minorities, who unlike Turkey’s own minority groups, they have doubled/tripled in size and live quite prosperous lives. The Moslem Turkish-speaking minority of northern Greece has even elected 2 members of parliament, who are being directed and instructed by Ankara. Greece however does not dare accusing them of treason (because siding with Turkish interests in the Greek parliament or using insulting political language or conflicting pure Greek interests is a treason act under all standards...), because of the fear of being accused by the world as human rights violator. Where are the hundreds of thousands of Greeks of Constantinople of the mid 1950’s? There are only 2 thousands of them left today. And what about their properties and assets? What about the Assyrians and other minorities? Please DON’T talk about Human Rights, you of all the people of the region should have the honesty to admit your crimes and seek reconciliation with your past. Europe is one of the major income sources of Turkey, through its millions of immigrants who have sought work and freedom in Europe. The fat cow (even though somehow mad and full of mouth and feet diseases, just to add a humor tone), which is called Europe, is being milked by Turkey and instead of it being grateful, it turns back and asks for more or bites its breasts. You are pretty aware that most of the Turkish immigrants of Europe are not hard working and law-abiding residents, but they are the abusers of the welfare system and the naïve attitude of the Europeans. Finally , you are pretty aware what is the deep meaning of ‘kiavour’ or ‘kavour’, which all nations once living under the tyranny of the Ottoman Empire have felt on their shoulders and throats. The much advertised and proclaimed moto of “Lets forget about the past , which belongs to the Historians and the scripture of History Lets look forward for a better future for all the people of the region” works quite well for Turkey , especially taking into account the fact that it has NOTHING to lose, nothing to give in , but A LOT to gain and profit. We can move forward only if the taste of injustice is removed from our hearts , and this is not possible as long as Turkey doesn’t take care of its dirty past! Indeed I would like to see the day that we can sit around a table and make ‘kef’ with each other and looking into each other’s eyes with dignity and care. [ April 23, 2001: Message edited by: raffiaharonian ]

Unlike many other forum members, my family has many Turkish good friends, with whom we have the pleasure to dine , drink and enjoy. I even had some Turkish classmates at College and were in very good terms with each other. All of our family Turkish friends have accepted the fact of the Genocide and feel ashamed of their grandparent's deeds. I do not hate the Turks, nor do I want them to suffer. All I want is for them to see their grandparents' faults and injustices inflicted on a nation, whose sole mistake was to reside in a unique geographical area for more than 3000 years! After all your anscestors were the newcomers, the invaders! Don't you ever forget that! I cannot accept/tolorate the fact that you deny your parents' wrongdoings. You do not have the courtesy and honesty to apologize and extend your honest hands of friendship to a tiny nation. All you have to say is "You massacred us too.." Is this or not a childish and guilty attitude from a nation whose history is filled with blood and war ( your national anthem is a 'proud' evidence of that ) As long as you deny it , we'll continue pursuing our outmost to keep reminding you of your Crimes against Humanity. The fact that you have only lately 'discovered' the so-called massacres of Turkish people by the Armenians , does not change the truth. Unfortunatelly the majority of Ottoman Armenians were too loyal to their despotic and murderous 'government' , otherwise they would have rebelled against them during the Greek Independence Wars, or the Serbian/Bulgarian/Romanian/Arabian/Russian freedom seeking wars. Alas , they were too loyal to seize the opportunity to inflict a back blow to their occupiers. Unfortunately the very few , unorganised and poorly equipped fedayins were not enough to make a difference...... Indeed we were too loyal, shame on us....

There were indeed some (very few unfortunately) guarilla fedayin fighters in the Ottoman empire. Why do you consider this as an abnormal situation? Were they happy bandits who had nothing else to do , or were they freedom fighters , avengers , honorable fathers and sons of a nation who was tired of being called Kiavours? Who were tired of seeing their daughters and wives being raped. Who were heavily taxed to sustain a corrupt empire (which you so interestingly agree). Who had seen their properties confiscated, their children killed and their churches vandalized. Who had seen a Sultan and the "New Party for Progress and....", dis-honor their written commitments and promises of brotherhood and justice. Can you blaim them ? I find it necessary to remind you of the UCK , the Albanian fighers. What is your idea about their actions and dreams. The same applies for the Chechen 'fighter'. Let me not go back to the founding fathers of the American Revolution!

Dear Oz, I would join my voice with MJ in welcoming you in the Hye Forum, whose aim is to educate the Armenians as well as visiting friends. I would like to ask you certain questions/comments/ideas , which can assist us in defining the purity/intentions of your presence in this forum.... 1) My gradparents, all of them, were living in Cilicia and Dikranagert (Diarbakir), before the Genocide. Why am I still in the Diaspora? Why am I not in Zeitun (Suleymanli) or Sis or Marash or Dikranagert? 2) Another easy one for you. Just name a single neighbouring country of the R. of Turkey who are in friendly terms with your country. Which leads me to remind you Turkey's military alliance with Israel.( My enemy's enemy is my friend policy !!!! ) 3) Thousands of Turkish citizens have been and are still being subjected to humiliation, poverty , uneducation , torture , critisism and violation of their basic human rights. All these are taking place in the 21st century. What makes you think that at the beginning of the 20th century things were much better , expecially for the 'Kiavours' of the Sick Man on Europe?

I am mostly interested to know the reasons that would 'push' an Armenian to change his surname from x-ian to something non-Armenian. I've heard several pseudo-excuses but basically I cannot comprehend them properly. I believe that if you are ashamed of your Eastern cultural heritage and your name reminds you about it , plus you feel unconfortable when others call you with your surname, then you've got a reason in your head. But that's a complex and no matter what , there will always be reasons and 'traces' which will still remind you of your past.....

I've encountered several ex-armenians, who have changed their names to non-armenian names and surnames.! With the exception of Turkey's Armenians , who under various sircumstances are forced to seekk a safe-hide name/surname, would you accept/reject/critisize/encourage/applaude such a desparate move ? What would be the reasons for someone to change his/her name? Is it OK or what ?

Ara, maybe you have read Terzaki's "Dixos Theo" ("without God".) I was thrilled with his lifitime conclusions and answerless "questions' about life and the existence of God, which he so vividly elaborates in the book. If I could summarise (and if I've got it right) , his basic idea was that he was convinced (or wanted to be), that God didn't exist , but after studying Man and his behaviour , he concluded that the 'Existence of God' was crusial to the mental and ethical development of man, otherwise we could as well end-up with King Solomon's "mateotis mateotiton, ta panda mateotis"- "Vein,......, everything is in vein". Man is so weak and so low , that unless we have the Perfection , it would be in vein to continue striving for a better world and a better future.

May be you mean - lipanahay, which stands fot the Armenians of Lipanan=Lebanon. !

There is no theological separation or conflict between Etzmiadzin and Cilicia , but a separation based on political confrontations. It was during the 50’s that marked the disintegration of the Armenian Church. More precisely it was the conflict between Soviet Armenia and Tashnagtsoutioun that created the ‘schism’ in our Church. My family consists of Tashnaks and Ramgavars, but during honest talks, both sides agree that the interference of the Tashnak party in to the affairs of the Cilician Catholicosate created the animosity with Mayr Ator. There are many factors and many ideological stands that can be analyzed but I don’t think we can elaborate on them now. There were few incidents which I’ve heard and would like to share with you: Tashnak youth were ordered to beat Etzmiadznagan priests and seize their churchs. Duriong these sad and dark incidences, Armenians killed each other and created the animosity that exists till today. While the Armenian people were fighting each others , the political leaders were apparently drinking wine and playing cards in the mountains of Lebanon. It is said that when late Zareh Gatogigos tried to prevent the schism , one Tashnak leader disgracefully smacked the Catholicos and asked him to ‘shut-up’. The Church was weak to confront the political powers. They say that after this event, Zareh Gatogigos, died from heart-attack. All these shameful events is an indication that the non-Church powers were those who constituted in the separation of our people. The Church was used ( and was let to be used ) by those disgraceful new ‘nakharars’ , who continue till today to keep our people separate. Shame on them and shame on us because we allow them. When late Karekin Gatogigos was elected ( with the direct interference and instigation of Ter Bedrosian ) as the Supreme head of the Armenian Church, we all thought , naively, that maybe the schism was over. Unfortunately his early sleep was a blow to the unity of the Church. It is said that Aram Gatogigos is a true tashnak son and unfortunately doesn’t have the will/power to patch things. As for the new Catholicos Karekin II , I don’t know, we haven’t yet seen examples of his work. Today our Church on the surface shows that the schism is over , but deep down it is still very much separated and probably needs few generations to change this atmosphere. Who is to be blamed ? Of course each and every one of us who has given the power in the hands of the ‘metzbadiv mouratsganer’ and the coffee-table politicians. The Church is being used and it needs some strong and charismatic religious leader to get rid of those worms and the decay. Maybe one day ……………….

The Armenian Church is probably the oldest Armenian institution which continuous to exist. It’s contribution to the ‘survival’ of the nation was overwhelming, whether we ‘like’ it or not this is the reality. Maybe, just maybe, We might have been better off if the Church had not played a political/governmental role in the Armenian history, but this is an issue for Historians to speculate (only). No matter what, this is the case now and we cannot change the past. Besides, it was the will (no matter their ignorance and fears/superstitions ), that had kept this institution standing to these days. The Church derived its initial power from the kings and the people, and clinched to this power to this day. Can you blame it? It was the disunity, selfish attitude and weak and corrupt “naghararutiuns –lords/ princes” that did not stand for their people. The Church (not without selfish expectations) filled in the gap. From Gevont Yerets to Khrimian Hayrig, to Vazken Gatogigos, the Church tried and managed to keep us standing as Armenians. Besides they were the most educated and cultured elements of our society. Yes we would have preferred that the various Dikran/Bab/Arshag/Ashod/Levon kings had assumed this role in our country, but unfortunately they didn’t and the political powers stripped-off the Armenian people from the normal process of social and political evolution. The Church had a mission, which in the process diversified and probably derailed, but it is up to us to keep providing our support or withdraw our ‘vote of confidence’. It might sound non theological, but as long as the Armenian State is not strong and standing on its feet, we do not have the luxury to disarm and strangle this ancient institution, unless you believe that today’s Church is boycotting our newborn State or is a hindrance to its future development. (???) Besides, I believe the Church is ‘managing’ quite well on its own to finally discredit itself and condemn itself to the backbenches of our Nation. I furthermore agree that the Church has to assume its initial role, which was and is the Spiritual uplifting of the Believers. Another aspect of this discussion that should be taken into consideration is the time factor. We are in the 21st century and judging the deeds and actions of the Church during the previous 1700 years. Is it ‘clever’ of us to judge based on today’s knowledge and experiences? Can we substitute with the 21st century “X+Y factors” the ‘formulae’ used by Nation during those distant times? Do you find it logical to evaluate any situation based on today’s standards and measures ( if X was this , then Y would have been that…..) ? We shouldn’t also forget that parallel to our own experience with our Church, the remaining states/kingdoms/serfdoms/vilayets/khalifates/sultanates of the world were also dominated by their respective religious institutions. It was not a unique Armenian experience , but ours’ appear with highlights because of the complete lack of non-religious political powers. Today’s Europe and consequently the Americas , emerged through and from the clashes and compromises on their various theological doctrines, let it that be the Catholic Church in the South or the Protestant Ethics of the North.

I guess I would translate them like this: 1) Let me get your worries/thoughts. 2) "Unknown" 3) My soul 4) Come over

Interesting!

Oh......by the way......... You 'forgot' to answer my question! "The mistery of Dragon". Well , let it be.

Please feel yourself at home, have a nice shower and a lovely dinner. A cup of wine will be helpful. Thank you Dragon, but you see , I am at home and currently you're one of my guests! As for the wine, I usually enjoy it with friends and loved ones, if you are one , come and join us. No need to say more..... You got my point!