tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 To all my hye friends, I have a better understanding fo the armenian popular opinion. first, I must say that in no way the opinions expressed here can be interpretated as representing the entirety of the armenian community world wide. However, I also believe that the internet allows us to express our true opinions, without political corrrectness because people cannot tag us as racist or xenophobic. So, this forum can also be seen as a representation of the true unedited feelings of some armenians. I have purposely provoked alot of people on this site. I know i have been hurtful to alot of individuals. before writing on this site, I read the posting for at least 2 weeks and then decided to write. There are clear reasons why i came here and I will explain soon. First about me: I am a canadian citizen of greek origin living in the capital Ottawa with my wife and new born baby. My parents are from an island called Corfu, situated close to the Italian shores. Some of my ancestors are french, others greek and others venetian. culturally I am greek and defend the greek causes. Hence, by osmosis I have also defended the armenian causes, because my parents have brought me up to view them as our causes too. I grew up in Montreal until I attended law school in Carleton University in Ottawa, so I'm an attorney. My wife of two years is also a armenian montrealer. We have attended events at the armenian community in Montreal. Before her I attended the public english high schools and had alot of armenian friends. Basically, I have always been a friend of the community. What I have noticed in the armo community of montreal is that it is a strong one composed of mostly, lebanese, egyptian and syrian armenians. Most of these hyers have lived amongst arabs and I see a heavy arabic influence in the mentality of these people. I also have lived in Athens for a year and had greek armenian friends. I see a big difference in mentality amongst these two communities. I attibute it to the fact that arab societies view armenians as a rich merchant class and this provokes alot of jealousy and hatred towards those armenians and these armenians are more closed of then the euro armenians like the french or greek ones. Also, theses are the armenians that form the community in Montreal. More than year ago, my wife and I decided to get married having dated for 3 years. We chose a greek orthodox church because the local priest demanded I convert to the faith to get married. Our priest celebrated the wedding in our church and allowed the armenian priest, the same one which refused to perform the ceremony to perform a joint ceremony. Some men of god aren't really men or of God. Surprising attitude from a priest from the faith of the 1st christians ... Her parents were of course disappointed, but she was happy... so much so that we got pregnat soon after and last week has our first child Stavros, named after my grandfather. The question arises in what church to baptise him? We could get married on paper after my conversion on paper and then bptize the child in the armenian church... but before I do this I have to think: would it be beneficial to him to be brought up in the armenian community? I have learned some armenian and it is a complicated language but i can master it cause, well I'm greek. My problem is why? I have seen through a lot of examples in the community that halfers, half armenians are frowned upon...I am an odar...even though I am from maybe the only nation which come close tounderstanding the armenians... my Stavros is half armenian. Armos wth odar mommies are discriminated against a bit but those with odar fathers alot. I have examples... it does exist. Stavros' mom shall teach him the language... but also my language... but i have no intent of bringing him into the community... because he'll always be seen as an odar... The greek community is more open that the armenian one. We even have full blooded armos in our community. The deciding factor to being a part of the community is language. plato said he is greek he who has received a greek education. Hence our philosophy is inclusive. It is easier to feel at home in an inclusive setting than exclusive. WE have half, 1/8, none, philhellenes, etc. I came here because the topic of marrying an odar and dating one concern me and I wanted to hear what armos though of this, minus the polical correctness. I Did. I am probably living proof that in all practicality, intermarriage is the nail in the coffin for the armenian community and this I say as an odar. But I do not blame the girls and boys who fall in love with odars... I BLAME THOSE WHO MAKE THEM FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT. These are the same people that make us spouses of hyers feel like outsiders at events. You make them feel bad and their kids... So what is the problem? When I came here i wanted to spark a debate... If you say stuff that everybody agrees with you don't get the truth : you must use a dialectic method. So I did. I purposely said things which i might believe that where surely contrary to popular opinion on this message board... What was the final result? HE'S A TURK... It was Jean-Jacques Rousseau speaking about the greeks of the Ottoman Empire: That even the most formidable civilzation can be reduced to barbarians through slavery. We, just likem armenians, have known lost and even most recently: 30 years ago we lost half of Cyprus... But this is war and this history... You either focus on the the lost by commemorating it or try and blackmail Turkey with no EU to get it back! I believe that you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Armenians are a people a nation amost nations like all nations of the world. What distinguished it from most nations is the hardship it has indured. I also beieve that all this hardship has created a deep sorrow in the community and fear of being lost forever: survival instinct kick in and self preservation is used as a justification to cut everybody else out who doesn't agree with the methods used to preserve the armenian nation. Children are made to feel that the bear the responsability if the salvation of the nation on their shoulders. this is a big burden. INDIVIDUALS ARE SELFISH BY NATURE. So when armenians give other armenians the"keep it in the community" speech, it doesn't go down well. This is why they llok outside because it is easier... less pressure. The justification I hear alot is that " we are a small nation on the verge of extinction" : to this I answer If you focus on the day your gonna die from the first day you are born... then you are already dead. Some might think a person like Ara Baliozian is crazy. I believe he is right. He is a free thinker hoping to wake up a people paralyzed by a fear, the fear of extinction. I believe he trying to steer the dialogue in a more positive road. I also noticed that he has some animosity towards us, I think because we might of made him feel like a tourkogyfto when he was in Greece. For this I apologize, Ara. You didn't deserve this. I extend a welcome to you in our diaspora communities of Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. You are welcome and we shall make you feel welcome and for any armenian because our ddors are always open to you armenious... I AM DISGUSTED OF THE TERM WHITE GENOCIDE USED BY A CHATTER ON THIS FORUM because it is a dehumanizing term. WHEN YOU CALL ME A TURK...YOU ARE DEHUMANIZING ME BECAUSE IN THIS FORUM TURK MEANS ANIMAL... YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO DISAGREE...BUT NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO DEHUMANIZE... NOT A TURKISH SOLDIER IN 1915... NOT AN ARMENIAN ON THIS FORUM.... I BELIEVE THAT ARMENIANS THINK THEY HAVE BAD LUCK OR ARE CURSED... AND BY BELIEVING THIS THEY TURN OUT TO BE.... TURKS ARE NO LONGER ARMENIANS WORST ENEMY...I THINK THAT ARMENIANS ARE... I WANT TO RAISE MY STAVROS RESPECTING HIS NOBLE ARMENIAN HERITAGE...QUESTION IS : WILL THE COMMUNITY RESPECT HIM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Go to Hell ! Bastard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armenak Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Fine, you're not a Turk. You're still an idiot. Now piss off before I spray some Windex on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Glad you've come clean - I hope you feel better. At anytime when you are disengenious, or deliberately "provocative", searching for what you feel is "truth" but what is actually a preconception on you part, you will run into animosity. The cries of Turk, or Troll were in response to your obvious insincerity - and that is sad, because I think had you approached this in a different manner you could have made some decent contributions without raising the ire of some members here. I believe that there are certain segments of Armenian society that are resisitant to integration - i have mentioned it before, and have long been a proponent of a more inclusive attitude towards odar spouses and their children. Many here disagree with me personally on that issue, but it certainly doesn't result in animosity or ill will. What often results is true discussion that allow me to understand their POV and vice-versa. By approaching this community (on-line or other) insincerely, and with poorly hidden ulterior motives, you end up sabotaging the process. the ultimate result is that you get the "answers" you were looking for by posting to deliberately stimulate certain reactions. I don't call that searching for the truth - I call it skewing the results. What a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 And to the others - please refrain for hurling insults at other members (no matter how much they try and provoke you). I'm really not in the mood to hand out more warnings, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 I WANT TO RAISE MY STAVROS RESPECTING HIS NOBLE ARMENIAN HERITAGE...QUESTION IS : WILL THE COMMUNITY RESPECT HIM? One final comment. It is my belief that as long as he respects himself, and understands his heritage - the community will accept him with open arms. But if you are setting the example for him with your manipulation and dishonesty, poor little stavros won't stand a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 One final comment. It is my belief that as long as he respects himself, and understands his heritage - the community will accept him with open arms. But if you are setting the example for him with your manipulation and dishonesty, poor little stavros won't stand a chance Thank you vava! Stavros will be raised in respect of his italian ,french, armenian ancestory....to know all of his root cultures, to love them and respect them and to speak the languages of these cultures to FULLY understand them but he will only have one culture of identity... Tigranis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Vava don’t be fooled by this Greek misnomer. Firstly, few words about the Greek “openness”. Yes, Greeks are mostly very open in their invitation to other communities when it comes to attendance of Greek festivals, meaning cash at their gatherings. This is a whole sale event, where the main “merchandize” is as El Greko very eloquently put it” brand recognition”. At these festivals you can see everything Greek, except the Greeks. The attendance is mostly Anglos who generously pour their dollars for absolutely tasteless Greek wine and “Greek” baklava. Greeks are very open to others when it comes to money. I’ve seen flyers at almost every Armenian Church inviting the Armenians to the Greek festivals, but when the time comes for the Armenian festivals the Greek presence is ZERO. This is the Greek openness! This is how those Christian Turks understand the openness. In general Greeks resemble Turks like no one else, but for them it is hard to admit it. Throughout the history we were allies only because we had a common enemy. Thanks to their “openness” and notorious Greek intrigues one after another the Armenian kingdoms at the verge of the Byzantine empire collapsed for the satisfaction of the Greeks who finally got what they deserved by the Turks. If it wasn’t their EGO Armenians could have had the chance to repulse the Turks and everything that ensued could have been prevented. Few words about Greek tolerance. It is simply non-existent. Armenians in Greece had to undergo tremendous pressures not to get assimilated. This is also an admitted fact by the Greeks themselves. Religious tolerance – Greek style! There are Armenians who belong to the Eastern Byzantine Orthodox Church. Have you heard of Greeks belonging to the Armenian Apostolic Church? For centuries their priests were falsifying our faith, declaring it “heretic” and “monophysite”. After all these this MORON has the balls to come here and teach us tolerance and openness! You would never be accepted in the Armenian community El Greko. Remember this! The only way you can be accepted in the Armenian community is to be accepted as a Greek? Are you ashamed of being a Greek? Maybe! I don’t blame you! Now get lost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 whoever he is...he is DESPARATELY trying to reach out to Armenians..he does not even realize it...poor lost soul as you dont' even realize it that you are attracted to us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Vava don’t be fooled by this Greek misnomer. Firstly, few words about the Greek “openness”. Yes, Greeks are mostly very open in their invitation to other communities when it comes to attendance of Greek festivals, meaning cash at their gatherings. This is a whole sale event, where the main “merchandize” is as El Greko very eloquently put it” brand recognition”. At these festivals you can see everything Greek, except the Greeks. The attendance is mostly Anglos who generously pour their dollars for absolutely tasteless Greek wine and “Greek” baklava. Greeks are very open to others when it comes to money. I’ve seen flyers at almost every Armenian Church inviting the Armenians to the Greek festivals, but when the time comes for the Armenian festivals the Greek presence is ZERO. This is the Greek openness! This is how those Christian Turks understand the openness. In general Greeks resemble Turks like no one else, but for them it is hard to admit it. Throughout the history we were allies only because we had a common enemy. Thanks to their “openness” and notorious Greek intrigues one after another the Armenian kingdoms at the verge of the Byzantine empire collapsed for the satisfaction of the Greeks who finally got what they deserved by the Turks. If it wasn’t their EGO Armenians could have had the chance to repulse the Turks and everything that ensued could have been prevented. Few words about Greek tolerance. It is simply non-existent. Armenians in Greece had to undergo tremendous pressures not to get assimilated. This is also an admitted fact by the Greeks themselves. Religious tolerance – Greek style! There are Armenians who belong to the Eastern Byzantine Orthodox Church. Have you heard of Greeks belonging to the Armenian Apostolic Church? For centuries their priests were falsifying our faith, declaring it “heretic” and “monophysite”. After all these this MORON has the balls to come here and teach us tolerance and openness! You would never be accepted in the Armenian community El Greko. Remember this! The only way you can be accepted in the Armenian community is to be accepted as a Greek? Are you ashamed of being a Greek? Maybe! I don’t blame you! Now get lost! www.armenians.gr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Listen dirty gypsy, get out of here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Listen dirty gypsy, get out of here! www.armenians.gr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 whoever he is...he is DESPARATELY trying to reach out to Armenians..he does not even realize it...poor lost soul as you dont' even realize it that you are attracted to us i love armenians... my son is half...my wife Talin is full Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 One final comment. It is my belief that as long as he respects himself, and understands his heritage - the community will accept him with open arms. But if you are setting the example for him with your manipulation and dishonesty, poor little stavros won't stand a chance hey vava.... how many warnings have you dished out on my behalf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Vava don’t be fooled by this Greek misnomer. Firstly, few words about the Greek “openness”. Yes, Greeks are mostly very open in their invitation to other communities when it comes to attendance of Greek festivals, meaning cash at their gatherings. This is a whole sale event, where the main “merchandize” is as El Greko very eloquently put it” brand recognition”. At these festivals you can see everything Greek, except the Greeks. The attendance is mostly Anglos who generously pour their dollars for absolutely tasteless Greek wine and “Greek” baklava. Greeks are very open to others when it comes to money. I’ve seen flyers at almost every Armenian Church inviting the Armenians to the Greek festivals, but when the time comes for the Armenian festivals the Greek presence is ZERO. This is the Greek openness! This is how those Christian Turks understand the openness. In general Greeks resemble Turks like no one else, but for them it is hard to admit it. Throughout the history we were allies only because we had a common enemy. Thanks to their “openness” and notorious Greek intrigues one after another the Armenian kingdoms at the verge of the Byzantine empire collapsed for the satisfaction of the Greeks who finally got what they deserved by the Turks. If it wasn’t for their EGO Armenians could have had the chance to repulse the Turks and everything that ensued could have been prevented. Few words about Greek tolerance. It is simply non-existent. Armenians in Greece had to undergo tremendous pressures not to get assimilated. This is also an admitted fact by the Greeks themselves. Religious tolerance – Greek style! There are Armenians who belong to the Eastern Byzantine Orthodox Church. Have you heard of Greeks belonging to the Armenian Apostolic Church? For centuries their priests were falsifying our faith, declaring it “heretic” and “monophysite”. After all these this MORON has the balls to come here and teach us tolerance and openness! You would never be accepted in the Armenian community El Greko. Remember this! The only way you can be accepted in the Armenian community is to be accepted as a Greek? Are you ashamed of being a Greek? Maybe! I don’t blame you! Now get lost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Can you feel the hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 So... let me get this: now we are also to blame for the destruction of armenians, right gamisi-vor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 El Grechko, where is our Cilicia? What happened to Ani? Vaspurakan? Trabzon? Weren't your f**** kind, behind it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 hmmmm .. lets be nice a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Gams, can't you just yawn ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigranisbasileus Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 El Grechko, where is our Cilicia? What happened to Ani? Vaspurakan? Trabzon? Weren't your f**** kind, behind it? They are gone? Should we hate the italians for WWII? Should we hate the bulgarians for WWI? If we hated everyone we have gone to war with...we would even hate ourselves.... I know my history... and for what it is worth I apologize for my ancestors victories over yours....them the breaks.... are you gonna apologize for your victories? (do you have any) ? and if you don't, does that make you a Turk? full your heart full of hate and there ain't no room for love Love, tigranis let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) First off I want to thank you Gams for bringing up our history and thruthfully my father used to say the same thing that pretty much you said it; that you cannot trust a Greek. How right he was. And throughout our history they were repeatedly deceitful to our kingdoms to make us weak so they would rule and be strong themselves only. How right you are Gams jan to recall all this. Second you moron Grecko, how can you compare the Bulgarians and yourselves or the Italians and yourselves with us? Do you know our history or you're just talking nonsense again. We were only 3 million in Turkey, that is today's Anatolia and the Turks in 1915 and in 1922 massacred at least 2 million Armenians. Only 800,000 souls survived. We were only 800,000 approx. in the Eastern/Russian part of Armenia (today's Armenia). You go figure out. The turks practically wiped out a whole nationality -that is us-. The turks, the italians or the bulgarians altogether didn't do to you what the turks did to us. So save your rhetoric and stupidity and don't comprare us with yourselves!!!! Edited May 31, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) They are gone? Should we hate the italians for WWII? Should we hate the bulgarians for WWI? If we hated everyone we have gone to war with...we would even hate ourselves.... I know my history... and for what it is worth I apologize for my ancestors victories over yours....them the breaks.... are you gonna apologize for your victories? (do you have any) ? and if you don't, does that make you a Turk? full your heart full of hate and there ain't no room for love Love, tigranis You can ask whatever you want, just don't ask me to "love you" or your nation, because it won't happen, not now not anytime soon! As to your victories - hmmm, never heard of any, but I've heard a lot of things about victories of others on your behalf. Edited May 31, 2006 by gamavor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 They are gone? Should we hate the italians for WWII? Should we hate the bulgarians for WWI? If we hated everyone we have gone to war with...we would even hate ourselves.... I know my history... and for what it is worth I apologize for my ancestors victories over yours....them the breaks.... are you gonna apologize for your victories? (do you have any) ? and if you don't, does that make you a Turk? full your heart full of hate and there ain't no room for love Love, tigranis let it go. And besides Tigran, what victory wasn't about preserving Armenia? How many examples(again, beside Tigran) do you have of Armenians succeesful or even attempted expenstionism? I don't think that either you nor Anahid grasped Gamavors point. I will simplify it for him and tell you to watch your backyards grass and you'll see it is far from being greener than your neighbours and far from it when that neighbour happens to be Armenia/Armenians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Gam do you like any other Nation bisides Armenians? just crossed my mind, seems like there is noone as equal as Armenians in this world for you I have, had many great Greek friends who passionatly love Armeians, what should i do? hate them for it? we have to move on and learn to live having the future in mind and not the past, and the past as far as Greeks concern, has many good pages beetiwn our and there people I dont care what this fink says, he is arrognat and cocky, but not all Greeks are A-holes, just like Russinas, Bulgars, and yes even Armenians to much hate and animosity, to much of everything is bad and not healty, be it personal level or National move on, maybe he is playing you and you fall victim for it?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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