The Real Enemy Of Russia Is Not Islam

[Armenian Highlander]

At great risk to my "HONORABLE" reputation within this forum, I would dare to say that the real enemy of the Russian federation is not Islamic culture or even Islamic nations as per say. Some of Russia's closest allies within the twentieth century have been Islamic states such as Syria, Iraq, Iran and Egypt. In my opinion, the greatest danger posed to Russia today comes from Washington, Tel Aviv, Ankara and Islamabad. The conflict within Chechnya, fundamentally, is a power struggle to wrestle Russia's strategic underbelly away for its control and barbarians within Chechnya are being used towards that very purpose. Once the Russian federation loses control over Chechnya, the vast oil and gas resources of the Caspian and central Asia will be placed under the control of Washington. Moreover, the barbaric militant movement within Chechnya is rather openly supported, financed and organized by the states of Georgia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Pakistan and perhaps Saudi Arabia. Thus, I ask: who is the backbone of these aforementioned nations? You guessed it, the US of A.

 

As the Soviet Union was collapsing more than a decade ago, there were concerns within the US State Department that a new alliance of Byzantine (i.e. Orthodox) nations would emerge form the ashes of Communism. Thus, when the inevitable war broke out during the early nineteen nineties between the former Yugoslav nations and between the Armenians and Azeri Turks, it was obvious where the geo-political alliances were to be drawn. Within the Caucasus, Washington, Ankara and Tel Aviv tried hard to defeat the Armenians of Nagorno Artsax, but failed miserably. Unfortunately, however, Washington’s ambitions succeeded within the Balkans. Russia unable to intervene, America spearheaded a massive bombing campaign against Serbia in the spring of 1999. As the WASP led and Zionist funded government within Washington was assisting the “Muslims” within Bosnia and Kosovo by killing “Christians”, they were conveniently eliminating Serbian power in the region that had long been considered by the US State Department as the last pro-Russian “Orthodox” bastion in Central Europe.

 

The ongoing Russo-Chechen wars has been primarily over geo-strategic formulation and “oil” and nothing much else. The territory of Chechnya controls vast and vital oil/gas routs that Russia desperately needs within its political influence. The aforementioned geo-strategic locations oil routes have also been very much sought after by Washington and her allies for over ten years now. And that, in essence, explains why Washington, Ankara, London, Tbilisi, Baku and Tel Aviv have been for many years been directly and indirectly supporting the Chechen cause in Russia and the also Taliban movement within Afghanistan during throughout the nineties. Thus, a new cold war between Russia and Washington, through proxies, has been ongoing for many years now. I call it -- Cold War II. Within the geo-strategic formulations of Moscow and Washington within this conflict, the nations of Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Russian region of Chechnya are essentially front lines. This explains the close relationship between the nations of Russia, Armenian and Iran, forming a north-south alliance and the close relationship between the nations of Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkey, Pakistan and America, forming an east-west alliance. Thus, it is no wonder why the current global crisis is being centered over these regions.

 

As far as the Islamic fanatics within Al-Qaeda is concerned: I withhold absolute judgment until more conclusive and compelling evidences regarding them are made available -- and this may not occur for many years to come. Nevertheless, Al-Qaeda, if they are what we have been told they are, they should be fighting against the same enemies that most Christian traditionalist and white nationalist have been warning against -- Zionism and Globalism. Moreover, do not forget that Al-Qaeda was the “monster” created by the American secret services to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. However, the monster seems to have had gone out of control and is now engaged in atrocities worldwide. To this effect, I do not know why Al-Qaeda has been targeting primarily Americans and, now, we are supposed to believe that they have begun targeting Russians. Nevertheless, it perplexes me that Al-Qaeda, in true Islamic fashion, would not concentrating their “terror” efforts against Israel, which should quite naturally be considered “the” archenemy by an Islamist organization.

 

I believe there is much more to the speculations surrounding Al-Qaeda than we are being told. I guess when history is written a few generations form now, if there is anything left to be written about, mankind will better understand what is has been transpiring. Nevertheless, by turning this ugly and horrible conflict within the Caucasus into a Russia versus the Islamic world, we fall into the very trap set by the ones who are conspiring to destroy the Russian Federation.

[skhara]

I posted this on this forum before.

 

http://www.newamericancentury.org This is right from the PNAC website and all their points of interests are surrounding Russia. Notice that Balkans and Caucasus are lumped together.

 

The conflict within Chechnya, fundamentally, is a power struggle to wrestle Russia's strategic underbelly away for its control and barbarians within Chechnya are being used towards that very purpose. Once the Russian federation loses control over Chechnya, the vast oil and gas resources of the Caspian and central Asia will be placed under the control of Washington.

 

You know Russia is not really struggling in Chechnya the way it is portrayed. Russia takes out about half a million to a million USD out of Chechnya every day. They do this through unorthodox means. For example, Russian army engages in kidnapping and extortion. Checkpoints are very profitable and there are a lot of them. There is oil drilling going on everywhere in Chechnya.

 

Also, think about this: How difficult is it for Russia's army to completely seal the Chechen border? Chechnya is a dot on the World map. Even if the Russian army is in complete disaray, even if all they have are sticks and stones for weapons, they have a million man army that can easily close the Chechen border and stop the influx of foreigners and materials. They do not do this.

 

IMO Russia is dragging out the war on Chechnya on purpose. Hell there are some veterans of the Chechen war who pay money to go back there.

 

Also, they use Chechnya a dangerous bootcamp. They don't send in the trained elites, they send in highshchool grads who never fired weapons in their lives. And those highschool grads either get f***** up, mutilated, dead, or they become hard-core killers, the type of soldiers the Russian army wants.

 

 

 

Moreover, the barbaric militant movement within Chechnya is rather openly supported, financed and organized by the states of Georgia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Pakistan and perhaps Saudi Arabia. Thus, I ask: who is the backbone of these aforementioned nations? You guessed it, the US of A.

 

 

As the Soviet Union was collapsing more than a decade ago, there were concerns within the US State Department that a new alliance of Byzantine (i.e. Orthodox) nations would emerge form the ashes of Communism. Thus, when the inevitable war broke out during the early nineteen nineties between the former Yugoslav nations and between the Armenians and Azeri Turks, it was obvious where the geo-political alliances were to be drawn. Within the Caucasus, Washington, Ankara and Tel Aviv tried hard to defeat the Armenians of Nagorno Artsax, but failed miserably. Unfortunately, however, Washington’s ambitions succeeded within the Balkans. Russia unable to intervene, America spearheaded a massive bombing campaign against Serbia in the spring of 1999. As the WASP led and Zionist funded government within Washington was assisting the “Muslims” within Bosnia and Kosovo by killing “Christians”, they were conveniently eliminating Serbian power in the region that had long been considered by the US State Department as the last pro-Russian “Orthodox” bastion in Central Europe.

 

I went to the bookstore recently and looked at Clinton's book "My Lies" last week. I was curious about what he said about the Balkans wars. In it, he all but flat out said that his cabinet supported the Croatian Ustashes "cleansing" campaigns against Serbs. He said that was a good thing. Also, it seemed like he had something personal against Serbs in the way he would write "The Serbs" did this or "the Serbs" did that. So aside from the geopolitical strategies on which I agree with you, it seemed to me that there was also something personal too.

 

I believe there is much more to the speculations surrounding Al-Qaeda than we are being told. I guess when history is written a few generations form now, if there is anything left to be written about, mankind will better understand what is has been transpiring. Nevertheless, by turning this ugly and horrible conflict within the Caucasus into a Russia versus the Islamic world, we fall into the very trap set by the ones who are conspiring to destroy the Russian Federation.

 

I believe that your belief is very believable. Personally, I think that Al-Qaeda is simply a branch of the CIA. You mentioned Afganistan, and today it is common knolege that cooperation existed between OBL and Washington back then. Supposedly, this links have been severed, but I don't believe they were.

Again, CIA and Al-Qaeda were close allies in the Balkans wars, so where exaclty were the severed ties?

 

Also, 9-11. Are you aware of the many many many holes withing the official story?

 

 

 

Lets talk about the struggle for the Caucasus for a minute, and more specifically Georgia. Georgia has made the claim that Russia has amassed troops on the their borders and is preparing to invade Georgia. I recent bbc news account said that there are 80k Russian soldiers in Chechnya now (this is twice the usual number of 40k). So perhaps there is something to Georgia's claims?

 

Also, the geopolitical strategies aside, I am curious about the South Ossetia situation. Who is right and who is wrong? Is the South Ossetian position comparable to Nagorno-Karabagh? Do both sides have legitimate grievances? It seems like a very complicated situation and Georgia is unlikely to work anything out trhough the use of force.

[bellthecat]

The only real enemy of Russia is Russia itself. You only have to look at its history to realise that.

[Armenian Highlander]

The only real enemy of Russia is Russia itself. You only have to look at its history to realise that.

 

In essence, you are correct.

 

However, such rhetorical criticisms can be applied to any nation, including us Armenians. Russia has always been a very difficult nation to manage due to its more-or-less undefined boundaries, vast geographical size and many different religions, languages and ethnicities - all of whom are natives to the region.

 

There is an active agenda going on today to wrestle Russia's "spheres of influence" away from its control. That, in essence, is the crisis going on within Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Georgia and Serbia today. Nevertheless, you are right in the sense that the Russians only seem to manage to exacerbate their already bad situation.

 

However, realizing their peculiar geo-political and socio-economic circumstances, I can't be critical of them in the same sense that you are.

[Armen]

The only real enemy of Russia is Russia itself. You only have to look at its history to realise that.

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If you consider Bolsheviks Russians yes that's true. However, they were not Russians and intentionally prevented Russia's historic opportunity to free itself from centuries of Mongol consciousness in 1917.

 

Russia's problem is that Mongolian conquest stopped its European development for some 3 centuries and Russians were never able to catch up with other Europeans. The only window of opportunity in centuries opened in 1917 and was closed by the Bolsheviks.

Edited September 13, 2004 by ArmenSarg

[Armenian Highlander]

If you consider Bolsheviks Russians yes that's true. However, they were not Russians and intentionally prevented Russia's historic opportunity to free itself from centuries of Mongol consciousness in 1917.

Well, Armensarg is trying hard to be politically correct.

 

I do not have such intentions within this forum.

 

The Bolshevik, at the beginning of their movement, that is until Stalin began his purges, were 99% JEWISH.

[Armen]

Well, Armensarg is trying hard to be politically correct.

 

I do not have such intentions within this forum.

 

The Bolshevik, at the beginning of their movement, that is until Stalin began his purges, were 99% JEWISH.

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Why don't you learn some manners within this forum and let ArmenSarg say himself what he does. Maybe I am trying hard not to repeat myself 100 times a day and make some stylistic variations in what I wirte to make an interesting read for the forum people.

[bellthecat]

If you consider Bolsheviks Russians yes that's true. However, they were not Russians and intentionally prevented Russia's historic opportunity to free itself from centuries of Mongol consciousness in 1917.

 

Russia's problem is that Mongolian conquest stopped its European development for some 3 centuries and Russians were never able to catch up with other Europeans. The only window of opportunity in centuries opened in 1917 and was closed by the Bolsheviks.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

You are underselling Russia's development. At the end of the 19th century the Russian economy was the most dynamic and fastest growing in Europe. It was compared to America, and in it size and natural resources Russia had potentual to exceed America.

 

Cultural, technological, and social activities in Russia were at the cutting edge (we can still recognise this through its novels, and music, and art). And that advancement was an important reason WHY Russia had its revolution. But unfortunately those Russians that understood and had created those advances were still a minority. The vast majority of the population still had its "Mongol consciousness", and it was they who became the willing canon fodder and enforcers of the Bolshevik tyranny (a tyranny which did not develop until the mid 1920s and which was as Russian as its overwhelmongly Russian victims were.)

[Armenian Highlander]

Why don't you learn some manners within this forum and let ArmenSarg say himself what he does. Maybe I am trying hard not to repeat myself 100 times a day and make some stylistic variations in what I wirte to make an interesting read for the forum people.

Oh my, you are very 'touchy' today. Speaking of manners...

 

However, when speaking the truth, it should not matter how often you may end up repeating yourself.

[Armen]

You are underselling Russia's development. At the end of the 19th century the Russian economy was the most dynamic and fastest growing in Europe. It was compared to America, and in it size and natural resources Russia had potentual to exceed America.

 

Cultural, technological, and social activities in Russia were at the cutting edge (we can still recognise this through its novels, and music, and art). And that advancement was an important reason WHY Russia had its revolution. But unfortunately those Russians that understood and had created those advances were still a minority. The vast majority of the population still had its "Mongol consciousness", and it was they who became the willing canon fodder and enforcers of the Bolshevik tyranny (a tyranny which did not develop until the mid 1920s and which was as Russian as its overwhelmongly Russian victims were.)

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

This is correct. However, I am not underselling it.

It is true that Russia's cultural and economic life was developed by the time WWI started. I wouldn't say that about the social activities though. You mentioned youself that those who understood the necessity of change were a minority. I would even say that they were a handful of people like Czar Alexander the Second, Prime Minister Petr Stolypin etc. who were actually assasinated by the predecessors of the Bolsheviks for the same reasons that later brought to the Revolution.

The key point, in my opinion, is that they prevented the social change, the political reform that would complete the cultural and economic development you mentioned.

Edited September 15, 2004 by ArmenSarg

[Armenian Highlander]

Here is an articel posted within a white nationalist web-site that got my unweavering attention. The analysis of the article is indirectly related to my first post within this thread.

 

The Struggle for Caucasia

 

Posted on: 2004-09-13 16:04:52

 

WE CONDEMN IN THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE TERMS the horrible acts perpetuated against the children of Beslan by the Chechen terrorists, who have been shamelessly supported by Turkey, the United States, Saudi Arabia, and the Western press, especially Le Soir [here in Brussels]. The blood of Beslan's children, their teachers, their parents, the soldiers and paramedics who tried to rescue them -- their blood has been spilt and Western journalists, like those of Le Soir, must bear responsibility for it because they have provided the terrorists the media support, without which they would never have committed their abominable deed. These [hired pens, who incessantly attack Russia for resisting the Islamic insurgence in Chechnya,] have at last revealed their true colors, for all their fine words and moralistic posturing [on behalf of the Chechens] turns out to be nothing but a smoke screen for sadistic assassins.

 

With no less force, we denounce the cowardice of the present Georgian government, which continues to repress the Ossetians [within its borders] and which is allowing the United States to build a military base in the South Caucasus -- a base which will contribute to Russia's encirclement and lend support to Turkish territorial claims in the region. Ankara, though, has no historical right to these Caucasian lands, which formerly belonged to the [White Christian] peoples of Armenia and Byzantium, just as they have no right to the Balkans, the northern shore of the Black Sea, or the Hellenic Aegean, which they also covet.

 

The unspeakable crimes committed by the Chechen vermin in Beslan, we believe, was part of a Turko-American plan [to secure control of the Caucases] by striking at one of Russia's most loyal supporters, the indomitable Ossetians, descendents of the ancient Scythians. The installation of American troops and Turkish military personnel in Georgia is obviously linked to the terrorist activities in Ossetia, in Ingushetia, and in Chechnya. [Virtually unreported by the Western press, the terrorists at Beslan were outfitted in Western military gear]. Like the British before them, the Americans hope to push the Russians out of Caucasia [so as to tighten their anaconda grip on Russia's southern flank].

 

Synergies Européenes declares its solidarity with the Indo-European peoples of Caucasia, specifically the Ossetians and Armenians. We do so in the hope that Russia's presence in the region will be strengthened, that the ominous American installation in Georgia will be contained, and that a bloc against a Turkish or Iraqi Kurdistan will be formed, so that access to Mesopotamia, whose economic and geopolitical significance is of the utmost importance, will not be lost. For since the American occupation, France, Germany, Russia, and Belgium have been excluded from Iraq. We cannot afford to lose access to this strategically crucial region.

 

It does not seem coincidental that the terrible tragedy in Beslan took place immediately following joint Russian-Armenian military maneuvers in the Armavir region along the Turkish border. These maneuvers were observed by the Greek military command, which ought to be congratulated, for, although a member of NATO, Greece has not hesitated to demonstrate its solidarity with the embattled Armenians.

 

The Armenian Defense Minister Serge Sarkisian has also announced that these maneuvers will be even more extensive next year. Armenia's army is presently expanding, having had its budget recently augmented by 10 per cent. Its active forces now number about 60,000, with a reserve of 320,00 (out of a population of 3.2 million!) and a "reserve of the reserve" of 350,000 -- for Armenia [which is one of the oldest Indo-European nations] is prepared to mobilize every able-bodied man between the ages of 15 and 59 [if ever its genocidal Islamic neighbors, who have a long history of murdering White Christian peoples, should threaten it].

 

In addition to these forces there are 20,000 soldiers defending Nagorno-Karabagh [an Armenian enclave in what was formerly Azerbaijani territory], along with 60,000 reservists prepared to take up arms if the Azeris, allies of the Americans and Turks, should attempt to retake these Armenian land. Fortunately, the Armenian Army is [one of the most competent and powerful in the region], equipped with the most advanced missiles and planes.

 

Russia also maintains 30 Mig-29 fighters in Karabagh and several batteries of S-300 missiles, capable of reaching Ankara or Baghdad. The Armenians also stand out as being one of the few White peoples to have maintained their ancient warrior heritage. Long ago, our Crusaders came to appreciate their military prowess, as they joined them in repulsing the Seljuk Turks from the "Holy Lands."

 

[Having always been surrounded by powerful and murderous enemies], the fiercely-nationalist Armenians have had to learn to fight the superior forces arrayed against them. Encircled by Turkic and Muslim peoples [who now occupy lands formerly belonging to the White Christian peoples of Byzantium], the Armenians are not likely to retreat before these forces, willing, as they are, to transform their mountainous land into an eagle's nest, if need be. In fact, it was just this determination, combined with the close solidarity between Armenians, Russians, and Ossetians, that forced their Islamic-Turko-Chechen enemies to carry out a murderous attack on their children, [as if by breaking the hearts of these Caucasian peoples that they would be able to conquer them].

 

In the clearest and most unambiguous terms, the Armenian president Robert Kotcharian (pictured) has declared his total solidarity with Russia and Ossetia -- a declaration which we Europeans support without reservation. At the same time, Serge Sarkisian announced on 5 September that Armenia remains committed to defending Karabagh, [now liberated from the Muslim yoke], as well as the land corridor linking it to Armenia [won in the 1992-1993 war with Azerbaijan].

 

American and Turkish support for Azerbaijan in this dispute has failed to weaken the Armenian resolve, which shows that a people's determined commitment to their heritage can make them almost invincible. Indeed, it was for just this reason that the American-Saudi-Azeri-Chechen forces resorted to terror [on 3 September] to break the Russian-Ossetian Armenian alliance -- somewhat like the way the US Air Force firebombed the schools and civilians of Hamburg 60 years ago to force the Germans to capitulate. Armenia, though, has a much different geography than the North German plains or the Mesopotamian river valley. It will not be invaded [without the most horrendous of struggles].

 

The children massacred at Beslan's Middle School One were Ossetians, an Indo-European people speaking a language related to ancient Persian. The 300,000 Ossetians of today are the descendants of those Indo-European horsemen known as the Scythians, the Sarmatians, or Alans, who frequently appear in ancient Roman sources. These people [who once occupied the south Russian plains] were driven by Turko-Mongolian hordes [in the period of the late Roman empire] into the mountain regions of the Caucasus, now known as North Ossetia.

 

One branch of these Scythians was, however, swept up into the wanderings of the Germanic peoples of the period. As a consequence, Scythians were scattered throughout Western Europe, the Rhineland, and the British Isles (where they had a part in fostering the Arthurian legend). Others followed the Vandals into Spain and North Africa.

 

Of the Scythians who took refuge in the Caucasus, many of their descendents made up the most important military forces of the Byzantine Greeks. In 1767, [after centuries living under the oppressive heel of the Ottoman Turks, who conquered Byzantium and Caucasia in the 11th and 12th centuries] these people were finally liberated by the Russians.

 

Their language was given its literary form by the great poet Kosta Xetagurov (1859-1906) and the French academician George Dumézil was the first major scholar to examine their epic literature. (See Georges Dumézil, Romans de Scythie et d'alentour [Paris: Payot, 1978]) Much of Dumézil's scholarly work [perhaps the most important ever to have been produced on "Indo-European civilization"] begins, in fact, with the Ossetians, for they retained some of the most primordial Indo-European characteristics. Not coincidentally, their folklore possesses an astonishing beauty and charm.

 

It was, then, against the children, the rising generation, of this small, ancient, and very proud people that the Chechen vermin, with the complicity of the Turks, the Americans, Islamists, and journalists like those of Le Soir, carried out their genocidal attack, for no other term than "genocide" does justice to the character of this sort of barbarism -- and indeed follows the logic of the Turks' earlier attempt to exterminate the Armenian people [in the period 1915-1922, when close to two million Armenians were shot, butchered, or starved]...

 

Source: National Vanguard (http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3788)

[gamavor]

Sorry AH, I overlooked your post!

 

 

Synergies Européenes declares its solidarity with the Indo-European peoples of Caucasia, specifically the Ossetians and Armenians. We do so in the hope that Russia's presence in the region will be strengthened, that the ominous American installation in Georgia will be contained, and that a bloc against a Turkish or Iraqi Kurdistan will be formed, so that access to Mesopotamia, whose economic and geopolitical significance is of the utmost importance, will not be lost. For since the American occupation, France, Germany, Russia, and Belgium have been excluded from Iraq. We cannot afford to lose access to this strategically crucial region.

 

It does not seem coincidental that the terrible tragedy in Beslan took place immediately following joint Russian-Armenian military maneuvers in the Armavir region along the Turkish border. These maneuvers were observed by the Greek military command, which ought to be congratulated, for, although a member of NATO, Greece has not hesitated to demonstrate its solidarity with the embattled Armenians.

 

The Armenian Defense Minister Serge Sarkisian has also announced that these maneuvers will be even more extensive next year. Armenia's army is presently expanding, having had its budget recently augmented by 10 per cent. Its active forces now number about 60,000, with a reserve of 320,00 (out of a population of 3.2 million!) and a "reserve of the reserve" of 350,000 -- for Armenia [which is one of the oldest Indo-European nations] is prepared to mobilize every able-bodied man between the ages of 15 and 59 [if ever its genocidal Islamic neighbors, who have a long history of murdering White Christian peoples, should threaten it].

 

In addition to these forces there are 20,000 soldiers defending Nagorno-Karabagh [an Armenian enclave in what was formerly Azerbaijani territory], along with 60,000 reservists prepared to take up arms if the Azeris, allies of the Americans and Turks, should attempt to retake these Armenian land. Fortunately, the Armenian Army is [one of the most competent and powerful in the region], equipped with the most advanced missiles and planes.

 

Russia also maintains 30 Mig-29 fighters in Karabagh and several batteries of S-300 missiles, capable of reaching Ankara or Baghdad. The Armenians also stand out as being one of the few White peoples to have maintained their ancient warrior heritage. Long ago, our Crusaders came to appreciate their military prowess, as they joined them in repulsing the Seljuk Turks from the "Holy Lands."

 

[Having always been surrounded by powerful and murderous enemies], the fiercely-nationalist Armenians have had to learn to fight the superior forces arrayed against them. Encircled by Turkic and Muslim peoples [who now occupy lands formerly belonging to the White Christian peoples of Byzantium], the Armenians are not likely to retreat before these forces, willing, as they are, to transform their mountainous land into an eagle's nest, if need be. In fact, it was just this determination, combined with the close solidarity between Armenians, Russians, and Ossetians, that forced their Islamic-Turko-Chechen enemies to carry out a murderous attack on their children, [as if by breaking the hearts of these Caucasian peoples that they would be able to conquer them].

 

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/images/teaser/kocharian_robert.jpg

 

 

 

In the clearest and most unambiguous terms, the Armenian president Robert Kotcharian (pictured) has declared his total solidarity with Russia and Ossetia -- a declaration which we Europeans support without reservation. At the same time, Serge Sarkisian announced on 5 September that Armenia remains committed to defending Karabagh, [now liberated from the Muslim yoke], as well as the land corridor linking it to Armenia [won in the 1992-1993 war with Azerbaijan]. American and Turkish support for Azerbaijan in this dispute has failed to weaken the Armenian resolve, which shows that a people's determined commitment to their heritage can make them almost invincible. Indeed, it was for just this reason that the American-Saudi-Azeri-Chechen forces resorted to terror [on 3 September] to break the Russian-Ossetian Armenian alliance -- somewhat like the way the US Air Force firebombed the schools and civilians of Hamburg 60 years ago to force the Germans to capitulate. Armenia, though, has a much different geography than the North German plains or the Mesopotamian river valley. It will not be invaded [without the most horrendous of struggles].

Edited September 15, 2004 by gamavor

[Nakharar]

Here is an articel posted within a white nationalist web-site that got my unweavering attention. The analysis of the article is indirectly related to my first post within this thread.

 

But how come those from the Caucasus are referred to as "Blacks" by most Russians. I thought they were our white Indo-European cousins.

 

P.S. What about Indians? They definitely are a part of our INDO-European brotherhood? Our race brothers seemed to have overlooked this somehow.

[Teutonic Knight]

But how come those from the Caucasus are referred to as "Blacks" by most Russians. I thought they were our white Indo-European cousins.

 

P.S. What about Indians? They definitely are a part of our INDO-European brotherhood? Our race brothers seemed to have overlooked this somehow.

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The same insignificant amount of Armenians per capita call Russians "mongols" or "onions".

 

PS: Indians are not Indo-European and have never been. SOME Indians speak IE languages, just like Mexicans who also speak an IE language but are not IE peoples. Finns for example don't speak an IE language but are IE peoples.

[bellthecat]

But how come those from the Caucasus are referred to as "Blacks" by most Russians. I thought they were our white Indo-European cousins.

 

Yep! A classic case of "the pot calling the kettle black". I'd guess that ordinary Russians refer thus to true Caucasians because they consider the Caucasus to be nothing more than a colony and its peoples not worthy of any rights beyond the limited few given to them by their Russian imperialist "masters".

 

Did anyone here notice a news report that a prominant Russian cosmonaut was beaten up in a Moscow street by a gang of Russian policemen because he "looked" Chechen?

[bellthecat]

Here is an articel posted within a white nationalist web-site that got my unweavering attention.

 

That says it all, and is an explanation why your articles get my unwavering lack of attention.

[Armenian Highlander]

But how come those from the Caucasus are referred to as "Blacks" by most Russians. I thought they were our white Indo-European cousins.

 

Baron Nakharar:

 

You question deals with socio-economic issues, this thread concerns geo-political issues. Adding to Herr Teutonic Knight's reply to your question:

 

Every society on earth has many layers within it, ranging for the poorest to the richest, from the smartest to the stupidest. The "Russians" you are referring to are essentially the unemployed, uneducated, alcoholic street punks of Russian society who often come from single parent homes. Russia today has a relatively large number of these types of youths due to the dismal economic conditions of the post-Soviet years and the subsequent break-up of traditional family structures. Moreover, there is resentment towards Caucasians from certain segments of Russian society because "Caucasians" within Russia tend to be very hard working (unlike large numbers of alcoholic Russians) are relatively successful in business and Russian women often prefer these Caucasian types.

 

Nevertheless, I must also state that some of the resentments, as expressed by Russians, are fully understandable even towards us Armenians. The "Caucasian types" tend to be dishonest in business, they tend to be drawn towards illegal transactions and do portray criminal behavior more so than the average Slavic Russian - whose greatest joy in life is to sleep with a bottle of Vodka ( I know I am exaggerating, nevertheless, I am trying to make a point). Moreover, the Caucasian types tend to be very violent and aggressive in society. And finally, the Caucasus today has large numbers of Turanid and Islamic nations who live very primitive lives.

 

Thus, when the aforementioned "Caucasians types" enter the Russian Republic for various socio-economic reasons and meet the "street punks" of Russian society - the results are sadly predictable. Nevertheless, the aforementioned Russian street punks do not in any way represent Russian culture and/or their geo-political attitudes towards the Armenian Republic.

Edited September 15, 2004 by Armenian Highlander

[Armenian Highlander]

That says it all, and is an explanation why your articles get my unwavering lack of attention.

 

Listen, I am still waiting for you to say something smart.

 

I know that you know that I know that you started on a wrong foot with me. However, I am going to be courteous and gracious enough to give you a final chance to repair my less-than impressive image of you.

[bellthecat]

Listen, I am still waiting for you to say something smart.

 

I know that you know that I know that you started on a wrong foot with me. However, I am going to be courteous and gracious enough to give you a final chance to repair my less-than impressive image of you.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Hey, I consider that what I said was rather smart.

 

And in my eyes the wrong foot was on your leg, not on mine! But if you are going to be courteous and gracious then I'll do the same and will give you a chance to repair my less-than impressive image of you.

[bellthecat]

Every society on earth has many layers within it, ranging for the poorest to the richest, from the smartest to the stupidest. The "Russians" you are referring to are essentially the unemployed, uneducated, alcoholic street punks of Russian society who often come from single parent homes. Russia today has a relatively large number of these types of youths due to the dismal economic conditions of the post-Soviet years and the subsequent break-up of traditional family structures.

 

..........

 

Nevertheless, the aforementioned Russian street punks do not in any way represent Russian culture and/or their geo-political attitudes towards the Armenian Republic.

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The first part is certainly right, but it does now seem that these people actually do now represent "Russian culture" both within Russia and in most non-Russians' view of what a typical Russian is.

 

It is these sort of Russians that are the ones displaying that "Mongol consciousness" that Armensarg mentioned earlier.

[skhara]

should attempt to retake these Armenian land. Fortunately, the Armenian Army is [one of the most competent and powerful in the region], equipped with the most advanced missiles and planes.

 

Is the article talking about the one Mig-25 and the 4 ground attack aircraft?

 

Seriously though, Russia should just give Armenia a buch of planes. About 500 Su-27s should do for now.

[Armen]

Is the article talking about the one Mig-25 and the 4 ground attack aircraft?

 

Seriously though, Russia should just give Armenia a buch of planes.  About 500 Su-27s should do for now.

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The article is totaly incompetent as far as the military equipment numbers are concerned. It is a good read though because it represents the political views of russian so called "white emigration".

However, it said there are MIGs in Karabagh which is not ture. Karabagh does not have aircraft (maybe some 5-6 choppers) and it does not need aircraft. It has a sufficient air defenses thought to withstand any attack from Azeri aircraft.

I think Armenia does not need any aircraft now. The 9-10 MIGs that the Russian base in Armenia has are sufficient for patrol.

First of all we do not have that many pilots. Second, we do not plan attacks either agaist Azerbaijan or Turkey. Why should we buy aircraft? It is more logical to buy air defense systems like S-300 or S-400 (although Russians do not sell S-400 to any country yet as far as I know). If Turkey attacks us those 500 aircaft will be destroyed in airfields in the first hours. So we need air defense agaist them more than aircraft.

If we speak about Karabagh, aircraft are almost ineffective there and in surrounding areas. Choppers are very good though. Some more K-24s (Armenia has around 10) would not be bad.

[skhara]

Armen, I have to disagree with you about the aircraft.

That 500 planes comment was jokingly wishful thinking on my part, but it would be nice to have a dominant airforce.

 

You say the NKR forces do not need airplanes to defeat Azeris. I agree. But wouldn't it be much better if the Azeri forces were damaged from the sky before ever getting near the Armenian line?. Wouldn't it be extremely demoralising for the Azeris to have their own aircraft intercepted and shot down over their own airspace? Azeris are a disorganised bunch to begin with, and droping a few bombs on their lines before they reach Armenian lines will send them running in all different directions. Much safer for Armenian soldiers don't you think? More dead and injured Azeris and less dead and injured Armenians is a good thing don't you think?

 

And as far as the no pilots comment. Pilots can be trained can't they? I'm sure

Armenia could produce highly trained pilots if the desire and effort is there.

 

As far as the Turkish destroying alll the planes.... Now this is stictly hypothetical at this point..... Armenia will not be so stupid and unprepared to allow Turkey to launch a major attack and not ready herself. Those jets will be scrambled, and they would intercept the Turks. Besides, by the time Armenia has 500 planes, it is Turkey that should be worried about Armenia attacking them not the other way around.

 

 

Second, we do not plan attacks either agaist Azerbaijan or Turkey.

 

Why not? Aren't they occupying Armenian lands? The time now may not be right, but someday. I say Turkish occupation is not permanent and hope you feel the same way.

[Anileve]

Why not?  Aren't they occupying Armenian lands?  The time now may not be right, but someday.  I say Turkish occupation is not permanent and hope you feel the same way.

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Not the argument for winning back the occupied territories. The thread was going well until this fictitious and trite claim. I wonder what would happen if all nations start claiming back the territories they've lost. Before expanding a company one has to make sure that the current management is stable enough first.

[Armen]

Armen, I have to disagree with you about the aircraft.

That 500 planes comment was jokingly wishful thinking on my part, but it would be nice to have a dominant airforce.

 

Skhara,

 

Yes, but I am talking about the present abilities of Armenia and Azerbaijan. Their budget is more so if we start a race with them over an attacking capacity (like bombers, ground attack aircraft) we will end up having less then them. Consider that some 4 or 6 MIGs will cost you arround the same sum that could be allocated to buy the same air defense system (actualy you don't need an S-300 to shoot an Azeri MIG 25) that will shoot those 4-6 MIGs (thus making them a sunk cost) and with four more missles with shoot 4 more MIGs hypothetically speaking.

 

It is nice to have a dominant airforce but is it effective in case of present military and economic standing. A war is always a conflict of everything between two sides, including economy, morale, speed...You need to balance all of them so that you use them according to the best proportions.

 

An attacking country is always spending more. Why try to win them where we can't. We better neutralize them...

 

You say the NKR forces do not need airplanes to defeat Azeris.  I agree.  But wouldn't it be much better if the Azeri forces were damaged from the sky before ever getting near the Armenian line?.  Wouldn't it be extremely demoralising for the Azeris to have their own aircraft intercepted and shot down over their own airspace?  Azeris are a disorganised bunch to begin with, and droping a few bombs on their lines before they reach Armenian lines will send them running in all different directions.  Much safer for Armenian soldiers don't you think?  More dead and injured Azeris and less dead and injured Armenians is a good thing don't you think?

 

Shooting an airplane would not be demoralizing, because the ordinary bunch think in numbers. One plane is nothing compared to a lost unit of a 100 people. For this a mutiple launch propelled systems are better. If you have them protected behind your own fontline you can enflict massive casualties on advancing enemy (in case you have destroyed their aircraft already). And, again, those rocet systems are cheaper than planes as far as I know (may be wrong).

 

And as far as the no pilots comment.  Pilots can be trained can't they?  I'm sure

Armenia could produce highly trained pilots if the desire and effort is there.

 

Niether Armenia nor Azerbaijan can independently and fully train military pilots. This is a fact. Again this is enormous amount of money. Pilots are the most costly soldiers.

 

As far as the Turkish destroying alll the planes.... Now this is stictly hypothetical  at this point.....  Armenia will not be so stupid and unprepared to allow Turkey to launch a major attack and not ready herself.  Those jets will be scrambled, and they would intercept the Turks.  Besides, by the time Armenia has 500 planes, it is Turkey that should be worried about Armenia attacking them not the other way around.

 

They must have time to take off. Our airfields are on the border. Armenia's territory is nothing to fly for a modern airplane. I think when they take off in Armenia they are making a big effort not to fly into Turkish airspace insidentally Welll, this is a joke but you can never make a secure take off from Armenian territory. E.g. I am sure Turkey has its planes somewhere deep in territory, like near Erzerum or something...

 

Why not?  Aren't they occupying Armenian lands?  The time now may not be right, but someday.  I say Turkish occupation is not permanent and hope you feel the same way.

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At present I don't feal like that way because we are hardly dealing with Karabagh effectively. We have more lands than we can populate. If one day all Armenians decide to come back we will have 8 mil people in Armenia and Karabagh. It is more than enough.

But maybe I will feal like you when all those people come back and Armenia become a very effective and prosperous state.

Edited September 16, 2004 by ArmenSarg