Armenin Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I know the differences between Eastern and Western Armenian, and have always thought that Eastern Armenian is more related to Grabar than Western, but I came upon someone on the internet that claims otherwise. Could anyone care to clarify which one is closer to Grabar, Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Welcome to the HyeForum! Do you speak Eastern or Western Armenian? I speak Eastnern and I think grabar is closer to Western. Something tells me for Western Armenians it may seem closer to Eastnern But let's see what the linguists on the board have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgm1975 Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 (edited) I did reflect on this issue. Here is a link you can go to: http://www.geocities.com/jgm1975/Language.htm In summary, Eastern Armenian consonants are more accurate phonetically, while Western Armenian vowels (such as -ian in Manoukian, “ü” in spürk, and so), as well as the script (as per Mesrop Mashtots) are more accurate. So to answer your question, both Eastern and Western have deviated from traditional Armenian. This is a result of political and cultural pressures. The Soviets wanted to eventually assimilate Armenians, so the first step was to eliminate all the particularities of the Armenian language to make it like Russian. For example, Russian does not have the sound "ü". They have the sound "yu". So the sound “ü” in Armenia was replaced by “yu” (Gyugh instead of Gügh). For Western Armenian, Greek and practically all other Western languages have two types of consonants: voiced (B, D, V, G) and voiceless (P, T, F, K). Traditional and Eastern Armenian have three types of consonants: voiced, voiceless, and "soft voiceless" (like a "T" that sounds almost like a "D"). In Western Armenian, they did away with that characteristic, because it became hard to translate Armenian in other languages that only have two types of consonants. I speak Western Armenian. I am 100% Diaspora with all my family and extended family being from the Diaspora as well. But when a foreigner asks me how we say "Strawberry" in Armenian, I answer "Yelak", and not "Yelag", to be accurate. And if someone asks me to write "Bob" with Armenian letters, I use the second letter of the Alphabet for the "B" ("Ben" or "Pen"), not the 26th letter ("pe" or "be"). Edited September 2, 2004 by jgm1975 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Neither. Although Armenian ("Eastern") is much much closer than the language spoken by Diasporans in its various incarnations. Grapar sounds like Gaelic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 The Western Armenian spelling style and vowels must be imposed (which is exactly like Classical Armenian), while the Eastern Armenian pronunciation for consonants must be kept. Hence one uniform language conform to the original can be used, and an Armenian named “Daniel” or “Abraham” does not have to look weird by calling himself “Taniel” or “Apraham”. Sorry JMG, but I disagree with you here. It has always been very common for (secular) scribes to write in whichever vernacular they spoke. We see this in great extent at least twice in Armenian history, once during the Middle-Ages and once again at the turn of the 20th century. I see nothing wrong in evolving our language and looking to the future instead of returning to roots that we can never ever recover. And even if we do, it'll only be a matter of generations for the whole program to fall to pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 (edited) Would the moderators be so kind to merge these two threads into one. I mean "Hajis" and "Eastern vs Western Armenian" as there are and will be many duplications. May I suggest a one common topic as "Eastern or Western, Hajis", otherwise many posts will be totally duplicated and wasted. Xndrum em! Hajiq!! Please!! "Sometime I feel like a motherless child... a long way from home".** No! Hi Sevmard!! :) But sometimes I feel like I am wasting my and everyone lese's time repeating things over and over. ** Those of you who may ask, it is a well known and much loved Negro Spiritual. And I know a few others. Edited September 2, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 I speak Western Armenian. I am 100% Diaspora with all my family and extended family being from the Diaspora as well. But when a foreigner asks me how we say "Strawberry" in Armenian, I answer "Yelak", and not "Yelag", to be accurate. style_images/master/snapback.png Excellent article Jean. First off, welcome, bienvenue, and I mean welcome! It seems you are also a born-again disaporan. This subject is older than Masis Ler and it has been debated to the ground, I mean to the muddy ground. Most of the debates have been and are political rather than linguistic, many of the debaters are sometimes people from both families of the Armenian language whom I suspected that can't even write their own names in the Mesropian script, yet they would insist that one or the other is the correct version and that one or the other should relent and cede to the other. No one has said it more eloquently than Paruyr Sevak. In his immortal work Anlreli Zangakatun we read; Erevi aydor-qani dar heto- Erkinq u erkir hashtvetsin norits... Erevi aydor- qani dar heto- "Hayastan" barits pokvetsin @nkan "Russa"n ou "Tajka"n... The reference is about the western born and western speaking Komitas in an eastern institution- Ejmiatsin. We forget that during Mashtots times there was no Russa or Tajka Hayastan (oxymorons both). We will come to why Mesrop created so many seemingly and erroneously considered duplicitous characters. Certainly not because he was a cruel sadist out to punish us. Reconciliation! Dear Jean, I have never seen a more reconciliatory note than the above. Now that we have set aside the politics we can proceed with the linguistic and social aspects of the subject. To continue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armenin Posted September 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 The reference is about the western born and western speaking Komitas in an eastern institution- Ejmiatsin. style_images/master/snapback.png Arpa, Komitas was western born but did he ever speak western Armenian? I have read that his parents did not speak Armenian and spoke only Turkish, and that Komitas was first educated in Armenian at Echmiadsin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Arpa, Komitas was western born but did he ever speak western Armenian? I have read that his parents did not speak Armenian and spoke only Turkish, and that Komitas was first educated in Armenian at Echmiadsin. style_images/master/snapback.png I think you're right. Both his parents had already died even if they spoke Armenian. So much so that when he sang for Khrimian Hayrik reducing the Catholicos to tears, he sang in Turkish. Something that raised many an eyebrow and created a friction that was never resolved, to the point that Komitas virtually gave up his religious calling and immersed into the arts. Some may even surmise that had he lived longer he would have given up his monastic career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Xndrum em! Hajiq!! Please!! "Sometime I feel like a motherless child... a long way from home".** No! Hi Sevmard!! :) But sometimes I feel like I am wasting my and everyone lese's time repeating things over and over. ** Those of you who may ask, it is a well known and much loved Negro Spiritual. And I know a few others. style_images/master/snapback.png Don't tell people that I'm a Negro Apra, I'm trying to pull the wool over their eyes! Luckily for you I happen to know that one, but many of the older songs I know and love are of the reggae variety, being that my family is from the Carribean when I was initially growing up here in Amerikkka, I had to "learn" various parts of American Blackness, with Sprituals being on of them. Bayts yes desnom em duk arden sovats eik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 (edited) Barev Sevulik. Allow me to be your instructer of American Negro Culture. I know quite a few Nwgro Spirituals and I love them all. The most popular of them being "Swing Low Sweet Chariot". However listen to this audio where Antonin Dvorak saw fit to make this theme central to his Symphony #9, aka " From The New World", "Going Home", aka "Massa Dear", where "massa" refers to "master" be it the "slave master" or "Jesus Master". http://swingera.net/goinghome.html It gives me goose bumps and tears every time. Edited September 2, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Well, good to know that parskahayeren is ahead of every other Armenian. Good job Sevik for having a parskahay girlfriend! Where else would you learn proper Armenian? I was listening to Andy, and yup, he too says: tonum, instead of toghnum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Barev Sevulik. Allow me to be your instructer of American Negro Culture. I know quite a few Nwgro Spirituals and I love them all. The most popular of them being "Swing Low Sweet Chariot". However listen to this audio where Antonin Dvorak saw fit to make this theme central to his Symphony #9, aka " From The New World", "Going Home", aka "Massa Dear", where "massa" refers to "master" be it the "slave master" or "Jesus Master". http://swingera.net/goinghome.html It gives me goose bumps and tears every time. style_images/master/snapback.png No no Arpa-jaan, hongist, I do know about the spirtuals and what not. Don't get me started on "massa" and the use of songs in placating black slaves into not wanting to be free in this Life, and waiting for Heaven. Well, good to know that parskahayeren is ahead of every other Armenian. Good job Sevik for having a parskahay girlfriend! Where else would you learn proper Armenian? Haha, I agree bayts, I teach her a lot of words because I'm learning from books and whatnot and they use a lot of slang and Farsi. I still my Beirutsi friend that if we both went to Haystan they'd probably understand more of what I say than what he'd say...hehe.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgm1975 Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 First off, welcome, bienvenue, and I mean welcome! Thank you. Here are a few other things I forgot to add in my previous posts: All languages have dialects, and they are a source of wealth, diversity and originality. I know of many different French dialects. But all the French write Daniel as "Daniel", while among Armenians, we have "Daniel" and "Taniel". It is as if some English-speaking people referred to a "nav" as "boat", while others referred to it as a "poad". There are dozens of Italian dialects, yet all Italians write the name Marc as "Marco", while among Armenians there is "Markos" and "Margos". The Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian division is a result of the Armenian language having been influenced by foreign powers bent on eliminating the originality of the Armenian language. While now it may not be seen as a significant problem, compared to the significant economic problems affecting Armenia, it is something that can create further divisions among Armenians, divisions that a small nation can not afford. Many countries have been torn on the issue of language (Canada, Belgium), while others have been united as a result of a common language (Italy, Germany). Today we have de-facto two Armenian languages, both with inaccuracies compared to the original language. This is fueling the "Hayastantsis vs. others" mentality. We already have divisions among Diaspora Armenians (Beyrutsis vs. Halesbtsis vs. Bolsetsis), let's not make things worse. The Jews reformed the Hebrew language in the 19th century when they realized that it was drifting apart due to foreign influences on the language, while the Turks adopted the Latin alphabet in the 20s to make the language more modern. So language reform, to build cohesion, retain or regain the purity of the language and give generations to come a solid foundation of their identity, is a process already seen. I think that this is more than a mere dialect issue, it is a question of saving the sanctity of the Armenian language, and language is the most important element of a culture. It is not difficult to reconcile both variants to have a single language. The division of Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian is not a natural evolution, which is normal in all languages. Rather, it is a result of the attempts by foreign powers to assimilate Armenians. For people to say "yes" to the status quo is like saying "yes" to the attempts by foreigners throughout the ages to culturally assimilate Armenians. Armenians are unfortunately notorious for petty in-fighting and counter-productive factionalism, even abroad, and this language difference is not helping. One less barrier, one less source of division, is already a step in the right direction, especially when it comes to language which is at the core of any culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 Sevig - Amerikkka? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 Sevig - Amerikkka? style_images/master/snapback.png Never seen that before? It's frequently used to point at the overt/covert racist practices and policies here in the States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 Actually, I have. But not too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dojudo Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 (edited) jgm1975 I agree with you 100%. Phonetically Eastern, literary Western. I am not French, I am Hayastanci, and damn it I can't brake the habit of saying "merci" all the time. "Shnorhakalem" is such a beautiful word. Edited September 3, 2004 by dojudo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted September 3, 2004 Report Share Posted September 3, 2004 Lets all learn how to speak Grabar or Krapar, the original Armenian. ( Yes I know I'm dreaming ) Then we wouldn't have these conversations. Eastern vs. Western who cares ! If both sides are not speaking proper Armenian then what is the point. My opinion is, if a person wants to know what the actual Armenian word is in Armenian, see if exsits in Grabar or Krapar. Unless the word is a new word like, telephone or airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 jgm1975 I agree with you 100%. Phonetically Eastern, literary Western. I am not French, I am Hayastanci, and damn it I can't brake the habit of saying "merci" all the time. "Shnorhakalem" is such a beautiful word. style_images/master/snapback.png Je suis curieux de savoir - is using "merci" just a middle-eastern and Persian thing, or is it used in Armenia as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 Never seen that before? It's frequently used to point at the overt/covert racist practices and policies here in the States. style_images/master/snapback.png Yeah, the "white man" is bringing the "black man" down. Please, give it a rest. You guys get more benefits then the "white man" and if anyone needs to complain it is the "white man". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 (edited) Well, good to know that parskahayeren is ahead of every other Armenian. Good job Sevik for having a parskahay girlfriend! Where else would you learn proper Armenian? I was listening to Andy, and yup, he too says: tonum, instead of toghnum. style_images/master/snapback.png Yeah, I am sure this is what all Armenians need to do. I weap for Armenia and Armenians if you are the type of Armenian that our youth looks up to you. Hell, its all going to shit, so, I think you should read this book: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0963932942.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg Edited September 4, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 Haha, I agree bayts, I teach her a lot of words because I'm learning from books and whatnot and they use a lot of slang and Farsi. I still my Beirutsi friend that if we both went to Haystan they'd probably understand more of what I say than what he'd say...hehe.... Yeah, I am sure you would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 Well, good to know that parskahayeren is ahead of every other Armenian. HAHA...yeah...they are ahead. For 500 years their parents resisted mixing with Persians for the shear fact of "preserving" themselves, but yet over here it is "ok" to marry outside the culture. Futhermore, instead of socially progressing they are in social decline. Yeah, they are ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 Well, good to know that parskahayeren is ahead of every other Armenian. style_images/master/snapback.png yah, but they have the funniest intonation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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