DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) I dont think it should simply be: if one considers themselves Armenian then they should be accepted as such......There should be more to it. I agree, that's where language come to the rescue. BTW vigil... your definition doesn't work. A child of an Armenian and an Odar marry an Armenian... since he was raised by an odar and an Armenian, from your point of view he can't be an Armenian... he raises his kid, since he himself from your point of view is not Armenian, his kid is not an Armenian... So it take for me to find one "odar" encestor from my, your or any persons "considered" as an Armenian to have to conlude that neither you, me or pratically any Armenians in this world are Armenian. Again, my definition is "at least," so still it is the most solid. Edited July 15, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Again, my definition is "at least," so still it is the most solid. Even if it is/was - it is insuficient and always will be. It is a question that cannot have a clear answer. And why do we need one anyone? Nairi's definition is sufficent for most cases - I mean who that isn't really cares to be - and if they do - they probably have a good (positive) reason - and like Azat says - they should be welcomed. Anyway - this issue is perhaps as meaningless and unanswerable as those concerning religion..and certainly can never be answered with some catch all 3-4 point definition. Like Boghos's sig says - simple answers = wrong answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Furthermore, who cares who is an Armenian ? It is not like everybody in the world "wants" to be an Armenian and we are here to avoid the deluge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Even if it is/was - it is insuficient and always will be. It is a question that cannot have a clear answer. And why do we need one anyone? Nairi's definition is sufficent for most cases - I mean who that isn't really cares to be - and if they do - they probably have a good (positive) reason - and like Azat says - they should be welcomed. Anyway - this issue is perhaps as meaningless and unanswerable as those concerning religion..and certainly can never be answered with some catch all 3-4 point definition. Like Boghos's sig says - simple answers = wrong answers Why always will be Thoth? It is insufficiant for someone to feel Armenian to be Armenian... I can believe being a Japanese, it takes more than that... any other part of culture beside language could be shared and not really proper to the "culture" in question, language is. Beside telling me it is insufficiant bring me arguments to support your point. Can you? Gove me an example, a clear example of a cases... you'll see that my 5 points are very moderatre at the middle between both extrems(you yourself are one of the extrems). I do not expect everyone agreeing with me, like many other discussions, it is obvious that both extrems will always disagree with me because I always tries to place myself on the middle. Language is the heart of a culture, and play the central role, Yes! It is not the only characteristic, but it sure is the most important... so therefore it is the "at least." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Furthermore, who cares who is an Armenian ? It is not like everybody in the world "wants" to be an Armenian and we are here to avoid the deluge. It seems that a lot of people on this board do care Boghos... just take a look at the answers and with the passionate way I have the replics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Whooo hooooo... I see Hagarag logged in... we can expect an answer soon from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I know, we have gone full circle. How many times has been said in this board that an Armenian is whoever calls himself Armenian ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I know, we have gone full circle. How many times has been said in this board that an Armenian is whoever calls himself Armenian ? But doesn't your sig says: "For every complex problem there is a simple solution. And it’s always wrong." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Yes it does . But this is not a complex problem, it is a very simple one. What is this ? Eugenics 101 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Boghos, from now on, I'm a Japanese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Boghos, from now on, I'm a Japanese. ...you really think so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 ...you really think so? Suppose that yes! And? What more does it take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 you yourself are one of the extrems what exactly is my "extreme"...I am not a biological determinsit BTW - just felt that biology should not be ignored and that it is certianly a factor - as is language (nad its key - I agree) - as are other facotrs...I just object to folks having to make such a big deal about it....and being exclusionary about it..and - in your case - trying to be precise about it - but using definitions that are clearly insufficient - like that "English" person we were talking about - lol (can't wait till they find out you claim that they are "English") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Boghos, from now on, I'm a Japanese. Good to know. We have very few Armenian speaking Japanese, quite a curiosity, I must say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 So language is finally important. BTW Boghos... http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9448 Will you join? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 This is the problem: You are treating this "feeling" as a mental state. For me this feeling of being Armenian only comes about through partaking in the Armenian culture. It is not a state; it defines our existence. We call ourselves Armenian because we concern ourselves with Armenian issues, speak the language, etc etc. You add to this whatever you desire. Once again, it is not a feeling which can automatically be switched on. It is the result of reflection on ones lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Like Boghos's sig says - simple answers = wrong answers Thoth, this is off topic but in the light of your words quoted above...just wanted to remind you our argumentation about conspiracy theories vs. primitivist realism...=>simple answers=wrong answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 This is the problem: You are treating this "feeling" as a mental state. For me this feeling of being Armenian only comes about through partaking in the Armenian culture. It is not a state; it defines our existence. We call ourselves Armenian because we concern ourselves with Armenian issues, speak the language, etc etc. You add to this whatever you desire. Once again, it is not a feeling which can automatically be switched on. It is the result of reflection on ones lifestyle. I do agree, but the main problem here is, how much of an involvment it takes? What it takes to be considered an Armenian? If it is only to believe being one... then what stops me to be a Japanese? My statment of me being a Japanese was right on track, I was expected someone to tell me if I speak Japanese, and Boghos answer was clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 I do agree, but the main problem here is, how much of an involvment it takes? What it takes to be considered an Armenian? If it is only to believe being one... then what stops me to be a Japanese? My statment of me being a Japanese was right on track, I was expected someone to tell me if I speak Japanese, and Boghos answer was clear. Hi Domino, I have zero time, so I'll be very brief for now, and hopefully write a bit more when I do have the time, as your "conditions" are not well thought-out. But I just want to point out that you are confusing "feeling" with "lying", "declaring", "saying", "claiming", "pretending", or some other similar action. You are not addressing this issue well at all. Perhaps you can re-start by thinking about what it would take to really feel Armenian. It is not a cause of belonging; it is the result. In any case, I do agree that keeping the language is very important. Other than that, I hope you would not get too upset if I liken the rest of your thoughts in this thread to the logical equivalent of a dadaist poem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Hi Domino, I have zero time, so I'll be very brief for now, and hopefully write a bit more when I do have the time, as your "conditions" are not well thought-out. But I just want to point out that you are confusing "feeling" with "lying", "declaring", "saying", "claiming", "pretending", or some other similar action. You are not addressing this issue well at all. Perhaps you can re-start by thinking about what it would take to really feel Armenian. It is not a cause of belonging; it is the result. In any case, I do agree that keeping the language is very important. Other than that, I hope you would not get too upset if I liken the rest of your thoughts in this thread to the logical equivalent of a dadaist poem. TB, I think I was clear about why I excluded feelings, because there is no words, no way of defining what Armenian is, and why someone will feel Armenian. My definition is an indirect correlation with something that you can not define because it is a feeling. I think you are trying to criticise what I wrote by considering my posts for what they are not. They are not about "feeling Armenian." And I do not believe that "feeling" Armenian is enought for someone to be considered as an Armenian, so trying to find what it takes to feel Armenian won't answer the question. Just two questions. Do you think feeling Armenian is enough?If yes! Why? If not, what it takes to be an Armenian? I tried to answer to the second one, because I do not believe that feeling Armenian is enough. So if feeling is not enough, what it takes more is not feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 I hope you would not get too upset if I liken the rest of your thoughts in this thread to the logical equivalent of a dadaist poem. No I won't... I will just ask you to rehister to the fantasy football team that Sip set so that I could kick your a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 (edited) "...but the main problem here is, how much of an involvment it takes?" That is the next question that should be asked. One must judge this on an individual basis, taking into account both the deeds and words of the person being judged. "It is not a cause of belonging; it is the result." I couldn't agree more, and it is a very crucial point. It helps to solve untangle some of the bewilderments brought forth by the position advocated by Nairi and others. Edited July 16, 2004 by shaunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 "...but the main problem here is, how much of an involvment it takes?" That is the next question that should be asked. One must judge this on an individual basis, taking into account both the deeds and words of the person being judged. "It is not a cause of belonging; it is the result." I couldn't agree more, and it is a very crucial point. It helps to solve untangle some of the bewilderments brought forth by the position advocated by Nairi and others. It is easier said than done... on paper OK! But even on individual bases... there is no way to quantify this involvment... you can not measure this, attach numbers to them and then conclude that the involvment warants the uses of Armenian. As for the result, the result is "being Armenian" yes. But I don't think this solves anything to the contrary, because the question is about: "What is to be an Armenian?" So we comes again to square one, from where I started. My definitions do not try to directly treat the question, because I don't think it could be treated directly, I just take the most important ellement of the culture and place it one way or another as a central ellement. I came to this by thinking whom do I consider as an Armenian... and from it I came to those "rules." I never claimed to address the issue directly... this is about feelins sentiments,... everyone lives his Armenianess in his own ways, I just took from it, what sound to be the most "shared" similar aspect and used it to build the simplest form of rules to identify an Armenian without having to treat directly the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArmenianPirate Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 (edited) The Armenian Pirate's postulates of nonsensical jargon regarding extistentialist philosophical notions regarding ethnicity that should not be regarded with ethnicity to begin with. Guaranteed to be void of logic, reason, truth, reality, and rationality, inspired by The Domino Theories of Armenianism: 1)I think like a tree, I must be a tree. 2) I can speak ebonics VERY well and after a few hours of a healthy dosage of MTV "Hip-Hop" dribble, I sure as hell think like an african man of color. I'm BLACK, I wonder if the black folk in the slums of Detroit will buy this fact? Zimbabwe, here I come my motherland!! 3) I just finished my 5th year of advanced japanese linguistics, mentality, and way of life, I MUST be Japanese. In fact, when seen in the street, my white, round eyed, hot looking Armenian male appearance is always mistaken for Japanese since I know the language, culture, and way of life/thinking after several years of study. Yes, I'm Japanese. 4) After studying my dog for many years, I've learned the instinctual mentality of a canine, I'm a dog. 5) Actually come to think of it, I did learn a lot about Native American Indians, I can perform smoke signals, and I speak Cherokee very well, enough to think like one in fact, call me Chief TAP from now on, I'm Native American. Jesus H. Christ man, I can't believe you attribute ANY of the theories you've come up with in this thread as logically coherent or relevant in ANY manner with what it is to be Armenian. For ANYONE to discount genetic lineage as not a contributing factor for being defined as part of an ethnic group is so childishly naive and proposterous. It's amazing that grown adults on these boards buy into it at all. And for thousands of years there have been wars, rape, killings, and conflicts between different ethnic groups for survival and here is Domino with the solution all along, "learn" the language and you'll become part of the opposition, BAM, simple as that! Please bud, first grow up, then relax and step right back through that door back to us, you know, that door that says "Reality" on it. -The Armenian Pirate Edited July 16, 2004 by TheArmenianPirate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Hyeforum Boards: TAP= 999999999999 Opposition= 0 As usual, owned, where have you been TAP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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