DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Domino, my genealogy makes me an Armenian. Are you going to tell me that there is no difference in the genetic makeup between an Armenian and, let's say, a Chinese? Yeh there is, like there is a difference between your genetic makeup and mine. Genealogy is not enough to make someone an Armenian... there is no gene proper to Armenians... Armenian characteristics are like this because of the human capacity of adaptation depending on the region they live etc... I can't even read about Chinmoy without being interrupted... bwaaaa... Anoushik, if you disagree with me once more, me the Guru Domino, the avatar in the form of a donkey will curse you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) What makes Armenians unique is that we have preserved our genealogy as much as we can, and while I'm not saying that you and I have the same exact "blood" as our ancestors 6,000 years ago, we still are closer to our ancestors then the rest of our European cousins. Culture and language are transmitted regardless of the hardware... if an author was to publish the same work in two different form and standard of book, the work will still be the same... Of course it helps to have a long lineage for the sentiment of connection, but it isn't a prerequise, neither it is enough. BTW, I just cursed you. Edited July 13, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Anoushik, if you disagree with me once more, me the Guru Domino, the avatar in the form of a donkey will curse you. BTW, I just cursed you. Is this the best you can do? Define Armenian culture. ... As far as I can see Armenians are not so much different from the rest of the Europeans culturally, and if we get more into it we realize that Armenians are exactly like the rest of the humans on this Earth. What is it about the Armenian culture that distinguishes us from other "cultures"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Define Armenian culture. ... As far as I can see Armenians are not so much different from the rest of the Europeans culturally, and if we get more into it we realize that Armenians are exactly like the rest of the humans on this Earth. What is it about the Armenian culture that distinguishes us from other "cultures"? Armenian culture is Armenian "culture." It is hard to define what a culture is, but language is part of the culture, not only a part, but has a place on its own, a major place. The thing with language is that it is the clearest form of transmission. For example, Armenian food is as well part of the culture, but when you transmit it, you have to transmitting it by using a way of communication, visual, auditory, or by talking etc... language itself is THE communication itself... it is the communication of itself... making it the clearest ellement of culture. The same goes with any other cultures. BTW, I just doublecursed you. If I curse you once more, you're not one of my disciples anymore. OK, OK, I know I'm going to far, I'll stop with this last joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) Another thing with languages is that what makes it so special is that the language evolved and contain the image of every ellement of the culture... things were named in the culture, verbs were formed... words proper to this culture were invented specifically in the language of the culture... So not only the language is about communication, but as well is a memory of the civilisation in question. Edited July 13, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 BTW, I just doublecursed you. If I curse you once more, you're not one of my disciples anymore. ... Ok, this is pretty interesting discussion and I'll definitely get back to it when I have more time. Take care for now and try not to go crazy as you dig deeper into the Chinmoy case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 I just came up with a number 4) 4) If you think in Armenian, regardless of the ethnicity of your parents or that your parents talk Armenian or not. Someone that think in Armenian has as language of his mind Armenian, his self-awarness is processed in Armenian. Therefore he is an Armenian. If a chinese kid end up learning Armenian and that it ends up that he start thinking in that language... this kid automacally become an Armenian. If one day Sev-Mart realise that he is thinking in Armenian, that he reasonate in Armenian, that his mind language is Armenian... he'll be an Armenian. Do you hear me Sev-Mart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Oh boy, I like my 4 tests of Armenianess. Cool!!! My favoured is 4) So any more critics. ? More regarding point 4) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 I just came up with a number 4) 4) If you think in Armenian, regardless of the ethnicity of your parents or that your parents talk Armenian or not. Someone that think in Armenian has as language of his mind Armenian, his self-awarness is processed in Armenian. Therefore he is an Armenian. If a chinese kid end up learning Armenian and that it ends up that he start thinking in that language... this kid automacally become an Armenian. If one day Sev-Mart realise that he is thinking in Armenian, that he reasonate in Armenian, that his mind language is Armenian... he'll be an Armenian. Do you hear me Sev-Mart? Ayo, paron Domino l'soom em kez. Bayts inch es asoom: Yes miayn mi kitch angleren karogh em khosal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 An Armenian is whoever believes he or she is an Armenian and wants to be identified as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) Ayo, paron Domino l'soom em kez. Bayts inch es asoom: Yes miayn mi kitch angleren karogh em khosal. G@ Nerek Sevoug? Hye baron. "An Armenian is whoever believes he or she is an Armenian and wants to be identified as such." So a Scandinavian that believe being an Armenian and want to be one is an Armenian? Edited July 13, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Yeah. Just like there are Chinese who want to be identified as Americans. Or people of Armenian descent who want to be identified as Quebecois. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Yeah. Just like there are Chinese who want to be identified as Americans. Or people of Armenian descent who want to be identified as Quebecois. Nairi, I speak French and live in Quebec... and don't understand your comparaison here... neither your comparaison with America. A Chinese individual can be an American, like he can be German, like he can be anyone else... but it takes more than believing being one. A schizophrenic could claim to be an alien and is associating himself as being one... would that make him an alien for others around him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Why not? I know a guy who doesn't deny his parents are Armenian, but he himself believes he's Dutch. 100%. He never says he's Armenian and none of friends consider him anything other than Dutch. Should I force him to believe he's Armenian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Why not? I know a guy who doesn't deny his parents are Armenian, but he himself believes he's Dutch. 100%. He never says he's Armenian and none of friends consider him anything other than Dutch. Should I force him to believe he's Armenian? If the guy speak Dutch and think in that language, then he is one, but he still is Armenian as well according to the Fadixian definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 According to Domino indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Let me ask the oracle: Oh, Domino, do I qualify as an Armenian ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) To be honest I did not want to "get involved" and do not have a lot of time in the afternoon. Usually I can only post late at night, but anyways I would like to make a comment. Domino, I understand that genes are the hardware; however, if we assume what you are saying is right then we must also assume that culture can be transmitted by reading books. Are you telling me then that if I were to go read a book about Japan, learn Japanese, and understand the Japanese culture I can become Japanese? Because that is what you are basically saying since "genes" are indeed the "hardware", right? Wrong. You know what makes me Armenian? Let me explain, what makes me Armenian is the fact that I come from a Armenian Mom and Dad that have transmitted their Armenian ideals, goals, and culture into the next generation through me. Now, if we assume that culture is "software" like you assume it is then we could also assume that foreign "software" like Sev-Mard would indeed corrupt the program, right? Right, which is why you ultimately fail to realize that by marrying someone of another race, ethnicity, or nationality the ideals that should be passed by an Armenian father and mother are not indeed transmitted into the next generation, which ultimately marginalizes and degenerates the Armenian identity. Furthermore, by your logic are you telling me that someone like Sev-Mard can indeed know about the Armenian identity, culture, and ideology equal to my dad? No, of course not, my dad is Armenian and was raised by Armenian parents, while Sev-Mard is Caribbean-African-American and was raised by parents of the same stock. Sev-Mard will pass down Caribbean-African-American culture and his wife will pass down Armenian culture, but in no way does the child truly become Armenian. At most he or she will become Caribbean-African-American-Armenian and ultimately will adopt American culture. Now, assuming that this indeed does happen can you guarantee me that Sev-Mard's child will adopt Armenian identity as his or her own culture? No, you can not guarantee this, nevertheless, I can not guarantee that a child born in the Diaspora from Armenian parents will pick the Armenian identity over the American. However, the chances of a child accepting Armenian identity as his or her is far more greater when the parents are both Armenian compared with someone who only has one Armenian parent. At the very end being Armenian indeed is an ideology, but in order for this ideology to pass to the next both parents must be Armenian because the next generation’s ideology is comprised by a father and a mother. If I were to marry an “otar” and were to have a daughter the foundations of how my daughter will ultimately behave and the morals she will posses is dictated by my wife. If my wife is not Armenian my daughter in turn will not posses Armenian morals, behavior, and traits. If I were to have a son my son would ultimately posses the Armenian behaviors and morals of an Armenian male, but ultimately will lack a portion of his ideology that comes from an Armenian mom. Now, you can sit and say well “that is not what I mean” or “yes, your right, but”, however, there just is no way to substitute a Armenian father or mother and still reap the same benefits in terms of preserving your Armenian identity. However, I do agree that the loss of culture, identity, and ideology in an ethnic, racial, and nationality is always one way in which the parents lack to pass the means to preserve culture by not teaching the foundations of the culture like the language. Language indeed is important to keeping the culture alive, but at the very end the Armenian ideology can only be passed down by a Armenian father and mother. With this being said I would like to make it clear that I in no way stating who is a Armenian or who is not because to be honest I do not have a the right to, but I can guarantee the only way the culture will thrive is by marrying in the culture. I generally feel that the majority of the people that try and make excuses as to why it is ok for us to marry outside the culture are the individuals that are just seeking piece of mind. How in the world are you going to convince your children to marry in the culture when you yourself did not? In no way am I saying that I am going to marry in the culture, but at least if I decide not to I will be honest enough to not claim my child is “Armenian” nor will I force the child to pick the Armenian over the “otar” identity by forcibly putting the child in a Armenian school. I will leave that decision to the child, which will have to decide. Anyways, that is my take on this issue. I have more ideas that I want to express, but do not have time at the moment. Edited July 13, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Vigil, no, by learning Japenese and learning its culture and reading books about it one can not just become Japanese. The only way according to my definition, for someone to become Japanese if he has no Japanese lineage is to think in japanese... if someones mind language is Japanese, for me he is a Japanese. You give many possibilities yes! But what happen if for instance a kid of an Armenian and an odar is sent to an Armenian school and that he learn Armenian. This person fluently talk Armenian and later marry with a non Armenian, and he in his turn sent his kid to an Armenian school... the culture is still transmitted. Suppose that an orphan child that has no Armenian lineage is adopted by Armenian parents... will this kid not be an Armenian? I do believe that culture is something magical that goes beyond the person... it is what links you with some other peoples sharing this same culture. Imagine that Sev-Mart marry his Armenian girl friend, and later his kid learn Armenian, his kid is Armenian. I've found BTW an interesting analogy... I compare language with the OS of the hardware, and other ellements of a culture "softwares." A Linux computer is a Linux computer regardless of if the hardware is a MAC or a PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 (edited) Let me ask the oracle: Oh, Domino, do I qualify as an Armenian ? Don't know... there is a very easy way for you to qualify as an Armenian. http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8672 Send one of these to my mailbox and I will grant you Armenianship. Be warned that if I don't recieve any of these, you will be as miserable as MosJan, Sip and Azat. They aren't Armenian anymore. Edited July 14, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Suppose that an orphan child that has no Armenian lineage is adopted by Armenian parents... will this kid not be an Armenian? Domino, there is a black Armenian kid who was adopted by an Armenian woman who lives in Armenia. They show him often on the Armenian television. He speaks Armenian and he is completely surrounded by Armenians, so I guess he is Armenian. I was wondering... If he marries in the future to a black girl, who was also adopted by Armenian parents and spent all her life in Armenia, and they have a black child, will this child be an Armenian? Now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense that the kid will be considered an Armenian, especially if this family lives in Armenia. But still, aren't they also black? What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Domino - I know a person who has never been to the US and who at one time had never been to an English speaking country - yet this person had gone to schools where English was the primary language and in fact this person thinks in English - so is this person an American or and English person? Other then the fact that they think in English this person lives - more or less - according to their local culture - and of course genetically they are of that culture. So no Domino - your definition is insufficient and wrong...much as you are wrong concerning Atheism as religion and same sex unions as not being passible to be considered marraige. Sometimes I wonder what universe you live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Isn't atheism or non-belief in a metaphysical entity - call it whatever you like - a belief as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Domino, there is a black Armenian kid who was adopted by an Armenian woman who lives in Armenia. They show him often on the Armenian television. He speaks Armenian and he is completely surrounded by Armenians, so I guess he is Armenian. I was wondering... If he marries in the future to a black girl, who was also adopted by Armenian parents and spent all her life in Armenia, and they have a black child, will this child be an Armenian? Now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense that the kid will be considered an Armenian, especially if this family lives in Armenia. But still, aren't they also black? What do you think? He'll be an Armenian in the same way that you and me are. Black is only a physical characteristic, like having blue eyes etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Domino - I know a person who has never been to the US and who at one time had never been to an English speaking country - yet this person had gone to schools where English was the primary language and in fact this person thinks in English - so is this person an American or and English person? Other then the fact that they think in English this person lives - more or less - according to their local culture - and of course genetically they are of that culture. So no Domino - your definition is insufficient and wrong...much as you are wrong concerning Atheism as religion and same sex unions as not being passible to be considered marraige. Sometimes I wonder what universe you live in. Saying something is wrong doesn't make it wrong. For once before you answer try to understand and analyse what the other party is telling you. You are mixing ethnicity with national here, so your premisses is wrong in the first place. In the cases of the Armenians, I am talking about Armenian as an ethnicity... as I have stated my definition is an "at least" and there was a reason why I have stated "at least." Being an American is not an ethnicity, like being a Canadian is not... you have your American citizenship you are an American, you have a Canadian citizenship you are a Canadian... you have your Armenian citizenship you are an Armenian, even if you do not talk Armenian... but in this later cases you are an Armenian citizen, and word Armenian in this last cases has nothing to do with Armenian as an ethnicity. A Turk living in Armenia having Armenian citizenship is an Armenian, but his ethnicity is Turkish, unless he think in Armenian etc... English could be an ethnicity, but not American or Canadian, French could be an ethnicity, but not a "Monacoian" etc... As for the two cases you brought here, they are irrelevent to the discussion... maybe in other universes your argument could have been supported, but not in the bunch of universes you are living in. Better chance for the next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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