DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) In another thread again this subject was raised, so why not starting a thread for once about that? My definition of whom is Armenian. 1. Has both parents talking Armenian(regardless of if him talk Armenian or not) 2. Has one parent talking Armenian and he or she talks Armenian himself or herself. 3. Has one or two parents of Armenian ancestory that do not talk Armenian but that he or she talks Armenian. It takes at least 1 or 2 or 3 to be Armenian. Who is a half-Armenian. Someone that has one of his parents being Armenian and talks Armenian but he or she himself or herself do not talk Armenian. I don't think there is 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 Armenians etc... you are Armenian, half Armenian or not Armenian at all. Any comment? Edited July 13, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) I dont think it should simply be narrowed down to wether one (or has someone in the family who) can speak Armenian. Granted, knowing the language is important, but IMO he/she should also have some awareness of Armenian culture/practices and/or show interest in it. Edited July 13, 2004 by Accelerated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 i dont think being armenian can be explained by words or by anything else..much like emotions such as love... you can tell someone you love them and you can try to write poetry explaining your emotions...but language and writing are arbitrary symbols for an indivuduals unique expereinces, feelings, beliefs and emotions... therefore being an armenian--or defining one who is armenian is not something that is stable...it s arbitrary depending on who the individual is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 I dont think it should simply be narrowed down to wether one (or has someone in the family who) can speak Armenian. Granted, knowing the language is important, but IMO he/she should also have some awareness of Armenian culture/practices and/or show interest in it. Language is the heart of an ethnic group... it pomp the entire thing... i It is from languages that the heritage is transmited... of course there is exeptions like Irland etc... 1). Has both parents talking Armenian(regardless of if him talk Armenian or not) Even if the kid does not know Armenian, this heritage is still transmitted one way or another. 2). Has one parent talking Armenian and he or she talks Armenian himself or herself. Even if only one parent speak Armenian, the kid still speak it, so the heritage is directly tramsitted... and above all, this kid can transmite it in his turn. 3). Has one or two parents of Armenian ancestory that do not talk Armenian but that he or she talks Armenian. The parents don't know Armenian, but are Armenian... the only way in this cases for their parents to be Armenian is 1). this being so, some form of the heritage is transmitted, and above all, this kid will be able to transmit it in his turn. This is why I think one of those three is a must, because the question is about the transmition of the heritage. In the cases of Sev-Mart, if his kid talk Armenian, this kid will be Armenian. On the other hand, if the kid of the half Armenian does not talk Armenian, he is not Armenian. Of course the rest is important as well, like sharing the Armenian culture... but still, language is a VERY important aspect of the culture. By talking Armenian, you are sharing the culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 An Armenian is a person with an Armenian descent, regardless whether he speaks Armenian or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) language is indeed important. Nevertheless, if say a person of complete Anglo-Celtic ancestry learnt Armenian - I would not consider him an Armenian, if he/she also practiced/embraced the culture AND considered themselves Armenian, I would recognise them as such regardless of having Armenian parents/grandparents etc. on the other hand: An Armenian is a person with an Armenian descent, regardless whether he speaks Armenian or not. I disagree, I would not consider someone with 'full Armenian blood', but without any knowledge of the language or culture and without showing any interest in it, an Armenian (even if they had a mono-brow and curly hair on back ). Edited July 13, 2004 by Accelerated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 language is indeed important. Nevertheless, if say a person of complete Anglo-Celtic ancestry learnt Armenian - I would not consider him an Armenian, if he/she also practiced/embraced the culture AND considered themselves Armenian, I would recognise them as such regardless of having Armenian parents/grandparents etc. on the other hand: I disagree, I would not consider someone with 'full Armenian blood', but without any knowledge of the language or culture and without showing any interest in it, an Armenian (even if they had a mono-brow and curly hair on back ). LOL!!! You are nearly agreeing with me here. If and Anglo-Celtic learn Armenian and embrace the culture, he won't be an Armenian, but if his child learn Armenian and embrace that culture, he will be an Armenian. Culture is transmitted, you recieve it and transmit it. If Sev-Mart has a kid with his girl-friend, and that this kid learn the Armenian language and embrace the culture, whatever or not he embrace as well the Afro-American culture, it won't change anything, the kid will be an Armenian. "An Armenian is a person with an Armenian descent, regardless whether he speaks Armenian or not." Armenianism is the software not a hardware, it has nothing to do with blood, but the transmission of the Armenian culture. People die, the culture live longer, it is transmited, you recieve it and transmit it in your turn... if you can't transmit it to your child... it stops there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 In another thread again this subject was raised, so why not starting a thread for once about that? My definition of whom is Armenian. 1. Has both parents talking Armenian(regardless of if him talk Armenian or not) 2. Has one parent talking Armenian and he or she talks Armenian himself or herself. 3. Has one or two parents of Armenian ancestory that do not talk Armenian but that he or she talks Armenian. It takes at least 1 or 2 or 3 to be Armenian. Who is a half-Armenian. Someone that has one of his parents being Armenian and talks Armenian but he or she himself or herself do not talk Armenian. I don't think there is 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 Armenians etc... you are Armenian, half Armenian or not Armenian at all. Any comment? So, you see Winston, you are not Armenian according to Domino . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 So, you see Winston, you are not Armenian according to Domino . Perhaps in another universe I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 "An Armenian is a person with an Armenian descent, regardless whether he speaks Armenian or not." Armenianism is the software not a hardware, it has nothing to do with blood, but the transmission of the Armenian culture. People die, the culture live longer, it is transmited, you recieve it and transmit it in your turn... if you can't transmit it to your child... it stops there. nada...where does one draw the line? A: you can't - not really...(and why is Domino sounding like vigil all of a sudden?) I cook Armenain - quite well in fact (and I drink Arak)....so? What of Armenians who (can) speak the language but live in Thailand and live like Thais? My internal wiring - how I think - is Armenian (in a great many ways) - even if I don't think in Armenian or speak it... And is an Armenian from Yerevan a more "pure" Armenain then one from Terhan? Is this person more culturally Armenian? etc etc I can't at all see how one can make such judgement..but then again...I guess being judgemental is a very Armenian thing.... And this is another example of how the mathmatical solution - ie you must have one part this, one part that, mixed this way etc - often has no real bearing on reality. And if an Armenian chooses to not have children - are they Armenain - seems not by your definition - they are not passing along the culture - so they are not Armenian. Or you Boghos....I think you fail too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Perhaps in another universe I am. Nope, according to my definition, Winston is half Armenian. One of his parents is an Armenian speaking Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) nada...where does one draw the line? A: you can't - not really...(and why is Domino sounding like vigil all of a sudden?) I cook Armenain - quite well in fact (and I drink Arak)....so? What of Armenians who (can) speak the language but live in Thailand and live like Thais? My internal wiring - how I think - is Armenian (in a great many ways) - even if I don't think in Armenian or speak it... And is an Armenian from Yerevan a more "pure" Armenain then one from Terhan? Is this person more culturally Armenian? etc etc I can't at all see how one can make such judgement..but then again...I guess being judgemental is a very Armenian thing.... And this is another example of how the mathmatical solution - ie you must have one part this, one part that, mixed this way etc - often has no real bearing on reality. And if an Armenian chooses to not have children - are they Armenain - seems not by your definition - they are not passing along the culture - so they are not Armenian. Or you Boghos....I think you fail too... The problem is where we draw the line as you put it. There isn't any clear definition of whom is what... I gave my definition of whom I consider as an Armenian. You do adhere to the Armenian culture, but the language is very very important. And this is why from my opinion you are half Armenian. I also believe that your kids are not Armenian if they do not talk Armenian, because you do not talk Armenian. If you were to send your kids to an Armenian school... by 3) they will be Armenian, more so than you. This has nothing to do with purity, because I do not believe there is an Armenian blood... it is this culture that is transmitted and recieved that makes someone an Armenian. The software makes an Armenian an Armenian, not the hardware. Edited July 13, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Nope, according to my definition, Winston is half Armenian. One of his parents is an Armenian speaking Armenian. Now you are sounding like Sasun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Now you are sounding like Sasun. Oh come on, don't make me answer, I have something to prepare for Sasun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 This has nothing to do with purity, because I do not believe there is an Armenian blood... it is this culture that is transmitted and recieved that makes someone an Armenian. The software make an Armenian an Armenian, not the hardware. Again you can't be so doctrinare with this. And you are discounting genetics completely - genetics that has been formed by millenia of cultural/environmental conditioning. Now I don't entirely disagree with what you say here - in part. And I understand how your position stands in contrast to those who take the completely racial/genatic based argument...but I still disagree that anyone can make such prouncements (and that they have real meaning). So by your position our Sev-Marde is an Armenian? Software vs Hardware. And what if his g/f (full blood Armenian) chose to live as a totally assimilated American - but he continued to live "as Armenian" - would you say they were a mixed couple - him Armenian and her not? Why not? And if they had 2 children - but then seperated - each taking one....he brings up the child Armenian and she does not...in one really more of an "Armenian" then the other? But then the "non-Armenain" one groes up and marries an Armenain and the sen dtheir kids to Armenian school - did she suddenly become Armenian again? et cet c and so on and so forth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Thoth, no Sev-Mart can not be an Armenian from my definition... his cases doesn't apply to one, two, or three... but his child can. I have to disgard genetics here, take a look at the turks, they are so mixed that the question of whom is genetically Turk can not even be asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Domino, you should note that your definition implies that it is possible for "half-armenians" to become "full-armenians". I have a related question. Is there an abrupt jump in status (or promotion) from "half-armenian" to "full-armenian" as the degree of fluency increases or is this a continuous function? For example, how about people with one armenian parent (who speaks armenian) and who themselves understand the common language yet do not speak it nor read/write it fluently although, say, they have basic knowledge of the alphabet, the grammar... do they qualify as 3/4 armenians, sqrt(2)/2 armenians or rather 212/357 armenians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) Domino, you should note that your definition implies that it is possible for "half-armenians" to become "full-armenians". I have a related question. Is there an abrupt jump in status (or promotion) from "half-armenian" to "full-armenian" as the degree of fluency increases or is this a continuous function? For example, how about people with one armenian parent (who speaks armenian) and who themselves understand the common language yet do not speak it nor read/write it fluently although, say, they have basic knowledge of the alphabet, the grammar... do they qualify as 3/4 armenians, sqrt(2)/2 armenians or rather 212/357 armenians? I knew that this thing will come up. Consider that it is very hard to come with words to explain whom is Armenian or not. This is an attempt from my part. Wonder if Chinmoy could come up with a better definition(gods telling it to him). I think that in this cases, you can see it as a promotion... if for example thoth was to learn Armenian, he would become full Armenian... this is in my opinion a question of transmition of the heritage, and language playing the central role here. For me, understanding Armenian is not enought, because the transmission should be from both sides... recieve and emit... but once you are able to communicate in Armenian and that one of your parent is Armenian or half Armenian(see 3.)... you become Armenian. You have the "at least" here, more you are fluent, you do not become more Armenian, but rather more dedicted for the causes(preservation). There might be a number 4) that could exist... in the cases of a non Armenian speaking Armenian(like Sev-Mart) living with an Armenian that speak Armenian and having kids that speak Armenian... will we grant them the title of Armenian? Or at least, "half-Armenian"? Don't know... I have to meditate about that at night. Edited July 13, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 I disagree, I would not consider someone with 'full Armenian blood', but without any knowledge of the language or culture and without showing any interest in it, an Armenian (even if they had a mono-brow and curly hair on back ). He'd still be an Armenian, whether you consider him one or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 He'd still be an Armenian, whether you consider him one or not. So what makes an Armenian an Armenian then from your point of view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Domino, what is a German? What is a French? What is a Vietnamese? It all has to do with their ancestry and not the language. In the U.S. you have people who list all their ancestry, like part German, French, English, Chinese, Italian, etc. because it has to do with their "blood" and not their language. Most can only speak English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Domino, what is a German? What is a French? What is a Vietnamese? It all has to do with their ancestry and not the language. In the U.S. you have people who list all their ancestry, like part German, French, English, Chinese, Italian, etc. because it has to do with their "blood" and not their language. Most can only speak English. Blood? So according to you, in the DNA, somewhere the word "Armenian" is written on? What abou the Turks of Turkey and those in China... which one is Turk by blood? I mean, one is mixed so much as iit has nearly no blood that you might call "Turkish." Someone having some German encestory and that has no German parent(under 1) 2) or )) and do not speak German is not a German. Language do not choose the kind of "blood" people adopt a culture or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Domino, my genealogy makes me an Armenian. Are you going to tell me that there is no difference in the genetic makeup between an Armenian and, let's say, a Chinese? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 It gets really tricky when we start talking about people with mixed nationalities. I think in the case of the Turks, their mixed genes as a whole makes them Turks. Of course, they differ from the Americans who have mixed European genes. So I don't want you to think that everyone with very mixed genes is a Turk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 What makes Armenians unique is that we have preserved our genealogy as much as we can, and while I'm not saying that you and I have the same exact "blood" as our ancestors 6,000 years ago, we still are closer to our ancestors then the rest of our European cousins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.