Sasun Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 I am just really perplexed why people can't just accept the unknown without giving it some name that identifies that belief. But why is it surprising? If we don't dare to try to know the unknown we have no right to call ourselves humans. In that case why is there science? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 What do you mean what is "maybe"? What I mean is you are not sure about something and that is not good. What would make a person to "wake up"? God? He would suddenly give signs of His existence and prove that man, after all, is not alone in this universe and that there is purpose for the man's suffering? If so, why hasn't He acted earlier and made sure that everyone is "awake"? There is a being that constantly tries to wake you up so you wake up and realize who you really are. That being is inside you, it is something very powerful but also very gentle. It will never force you do anything, or yell loudly, but it constantly wispers to you. If you are willing to listen and try to listen you will hear. It is very difficult but it is doable. That being is called by different names whose existence is not subject to arguments or reasoning. It simply exists, you don't have to believe me or anyone else, but what you should do is try to find out for yourself. But please don't claim that there is no such a being without trying to find out, or that this being did not try to wake you up before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 What I mean is you are not sure about something and that is not good. Why is it not good? On the contrary, I'm open to a lot of possibilities. And you are so sure about this, Sasun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Why is it not good? On the contrary, I'm open to a lot of possibilities. And you are so sure about this, Sasun? He is just a bit too sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 But why is it surprising? If we don't dare to try to know the unknown we have no right to call ourselves humans. In that case why is there science? That's not what I meant to say Sasun. Sure it's human nature to explore the unknown, to search for answers which are concealed, but it's obvious that the moment we know EVERYTHING, we will cease to exist. What we know is that there is the unknown, we still can't prove what it is so we give it a title and assume that we are correct, humanize it and viola it is no longer the unknown, it's GOD. That's what we used to do when we were little, fearing the darkness we would associate it with "the boogie man", it was the unknown to us, but it gave us a certain closure to know that we can associate it with a human form. I accept the fact that there is always going to be something I will never know, and I don't need to affiliate it with photos, icons or paintings, even the images in my mind. Because truthfully it's harder to seek that power inside of us unless we can draw a mental image, a certain form, thus God is born. Sasun I want to ask you a question. Say that the world is full of Christians and Agnostics and atheists and Buddhism and so on, and they all happen to be great people and observers of moral values, regardless whether they believe in God or not. Do you still feel that it would be necessary for them to convert to Christianity or submit to some religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Anileve - totally agree...and then to take it to the next step - to assume that God has certain morality (that we could even comprehend) and that he (or they perhaps) are asking certain things of humans - and such....well its just absurd realy - its exactly - a leap of faith....just like when one really doesn't know the answer on a multiple choice test - that has an infinite number of possible answers...yet they are convinced that they will arrive at the right one - by pure guesswork! And any understanding of the physicals laws of time-space 9as mor eor less understood today) should make it plain - that any being or beings who exist accorss such - if indeed possible - and if indeed they have created us and more etc - well it would be pretty much impossible to share (or much care0 about our moralities & such. Is it possible that "God" is just the universe around us and all things in it - as a Diest or Daoist might believe? yes I supose and makes more sense then this jealous, vengeful God of the Bible)...but even to believe such is like you have said - giving a name to something that we cannot really know to be true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Why is it not good? On the contrary, I'm open to a lot of possibilities. Ooops, sorry, I was not clear There are many things I am not at all sure about. But what I think you are doing, you are not sure about something, but you run to conclusions as if you were sure. Like I was suspecting before, you are biased against the idea of God. I recognize that there a all kinds of views God is this, God is that, and a lot of things do not make much sense to a many of us modern people. That could be your case, you don't like the OT God, etc... fair enough, you have your reasons, but when somebody says, look, God is good, that's not what God is about, you automatically disbelieve. You still have the idea of the 'bad' God in your mind and are not willing to give it up. And that is what's not good IMHO And you are so sure about this, Sasun? Quite sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 What we know is that there is the unknown, we still can't prove what it is so we give it a title and assume that we are correct, humanize it and viola it is no longer the unknown, it's GOD. That's what we used to do when we were little, fearing the darkness we would associate it with "the boogie man", it was the unknown to us, but it gave us a certain closure to know that we can associate it with a human form. I accept the fact that there is always going to be something I will never know, and I don't need to affiliate it with photos, icons or paintings, even the images in my mind. Because truthfully it's harder to seek that power inside of us unless we can draw a mental image, a certain form, thus God is born. Is that really how (the idea of) God was born? Please, let's ignore silly superstitions. Take any serious religion (there are not many), they all started differently than you are saying. There was always a direct perception of God, albeit differently. While Moses and Mohammed had visions of God without much understanding how it happened, Jesus and Krishna were direct incarnations of God and were fully aware of how they could do it. Despite these differences they all had a real basis for their teachings, they didn't brand everything unknown as God. God was something real for them. There have been other Masters who have had direct perceptions of God, real Masters. They could see and talk to God anytime they wished (unlike Moses and Mohammad and other visionaries who could not consciously and at will have visions). Please read about them, learn and you will see that those superstitions that you are saying are not true in most cases, and major religions do not originate from such superstitions. but it's obvious that the moment we know EVERYTHING, we will cease to exist. I would like to place a huge question mark on this statement Sasun I want to ask you a question. Say that the world is full of Christians and Agnostics and atheists and Buddhism and so on, and they all happen to be great people and observers of moral values, regardless whether they believe in God or not. Do you still feel that it would be necessary for them to convert to Christianity or submit to some religion? Not at all. I am personally against making conversions. It is up to every individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Sasun, if I may be so bold and ask you. What planet are you from? When is the last time you visited Earth? Di you notice that the Earth is inhabited by earthlings? Why are you so obssessed with deities and theology (whatever that may mean)? Are you having a personal spiritual crisis? Why are you so adamant to prove that there is a God? Of course there is a god, many gods, they all dwell on the other eight planets. Consider Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Neptune, Saturn and even Pluto. Earth is the only non-god planet. Have you visited Earth lately? Have you noticed that it is inhabited by mortal idiots the likes of us? Have you noticed that us mortal idiots have other concerns than contemplating our navels, such as hunger, disease, wars and famines, passions such as sex, art, science etc.? Which god are you taling about? Whose god? You may have yours and we ours, they will never be the one and same. If it is the God of the Bible, read it again and tell one it is, the one in the Genesis, the Exodus, Matthew or Mark, or have invented a whole new one? Can you please, once in a while talk about us idiots in a language we also can understand? (Not that I read all that gobbledigook) Are you an ordained minister/priest? Did someone ordain you to preach to us? Do you need spiritual counseling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Arpa, this is the "Religion" section of the forum. Why don't you just stay away from religious threads if you don't like them? I don't remember preaching to you, so sorry, but mind your business, I don't appreciate patronizing comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Yes - its amazing how many folks claim that God has spoken to them and that they have some divinely inspired knowledge - or even that they are the messiah - lol...(so just who are we to believe?)...and heh - even reincarnation.... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Jun22.html ...Moon declared himself the Messiah and said his teachings have helped Hitler and Stalin be "reborn as new persons." Moon has claimed to have spoken in "the spirit world" with all deceased U.S. presidents, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed and others. At the March 23 event, he said: "The founders of five great religions and many other leaders in the spirit world, including even Communist leaders such as Marx and Lenin . . . and dictators such as Hitler and Stalin, have found strength in my teachings, mended their ways and been reborn as new persons." (Moon) delivered a long speech saying he was "sent to Earth . . . to save the world's six billion people. . . . Emperors, kings and presidents . . . have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 "Each work has to pass through these stages—ridicule, opposition, and then acceptance. Those who think ahead of their time are sure to be misunderstood. " Swami Vivekananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 That could be your case, you don't like the OT God, etc... fair enough, you have your reasons, but when somebody says, look, God is good, that's not what God is about, you automatically disbelieve. You still have the idea of the 'bad' God in your mind and are not willing to give it up. And that is what's not good IMHO Yes, Sasun, I guess I do have the idea that no good God exists. But I am not as biased as you think. If you or someone else were able to show me that I am wrong than maybe I would start to think that it is possible for a good God to exist. But no one has been able to do that and my reasoning and logic tell me that there is no God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Yes, Sasun, I guess I do have the idea that no good God exists. But I am not as biased as you think. If you or someone else were able to show me that I am wrong than maybe I would start to think that it is possible for a good God to exist. But no one has been able to do that and my reasoning and logic tell me that there is no God. Eh, I am unable to convince you I have tried to make some points to the best of my ability, and I could say more or suggest you useful books but I am thinking it would not help because you don't have faith All I can say is forget all religions, theologies and philosopies, thoughts of God, good, evil, etc... discard all ideas that make your conscience uncomfortable... the truth is inside yourself, meditate (properly and regularly) for a few months and gradually you will start to see the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Ok! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Great thread Sasun. I agree with you wholeheartedly. That being said, I do not understand the likes of Thoth who have nothing to contribute besides the same old bashing God hokum. In any event, I thought it interesting to note that all civilizations until now have acknowledged the Tao, and the objective moral truths. It is only this civilization of modernity that denies it. In other words, this is the only civilization that does not know why it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 That being said, I do not understand the likes of Thoth who have nothing to contribute besides the same old bashing God hokum. In any event, I thought it interesting to note that all civilizations until now have acknowledged the Tao, and the objective moral truths. It is only this civilization of modernity that denies it. In other words, this is the only civilization that does not know why it exists. Yes - you said it - you don't understand...obviously...and i wouldn't bother "bashing" God if it wasn't being shoved dowm my throat such. And acknowledging the Dao - is quite a bit different then believing in a patriarchial God or such - quite a bit different. One can acknowledge the Dao and have no belief whatsoever in any kind of an intelligent or aware god/gods of any kind - in fact I think believing in the latter is clearly against the whole concept of the Dao which basically assumes the divinity of the universe - as it were - with no thought to any sort of being apart from ourselves that we must apease or such - it assumes that we are all part of the godhood (for lack of a better word) and that through acting according to nature - according to our natural instincts are we embodying the Dao...and again - by definition - creating any kind of heirchical priesthood and judgemental belief system is entirely contrary to the Dao. I would agree with you though - much of our modern civilization is far removed from/ignorant of the Dao...(except for maybe some subsets of our culture - like many environmentalists and back to nature types that you despise so)... And with the Dao - it is not a question of why - just by stating this you display your ignorance..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 and when you attempt to tie "objective moaral truths" to the Dao - you are again off the mark. As anyone who understands the Dao would inherently realize that issues of right and wrong and such are internalized in us and in all things - apart from any need for a lawgiver or such - this is just silly (and they are realized by consulting the mind and the heart and understanding what is right and what is wrong - don't hurt others, be kind, that sort of thing - that anyone with a brain and heart should understand....simple). And most of the edicts of the 10 commandments and such would not even fall within consideration. (most of) These draconain pronouncements are so far removed from the Dao to be contrary to it - in just the same sense that modern civilization is removed from the Dao. Sure - if you stick to the Golden rule - do unto others - etc - your on the right ground....but beyond that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Great thread Sasun. I agree with you wholeheartedly. That being said, I do not understand the likes of Thoth who have nothing to contribute besides the same old bashing God hokum. In any event, I thought it interesting to note that all civilizations until now have acknowledged the Tao, and the objective moral truths. It is only this civilization of modernity that denies it. In other words, this is the only civilization that does not know why it exists. Thanks Anonymouse, I am glad at least you understand it. Yes, Tao was always acknowledged and respected in old times although it was known by different names. As soon as science emerged people got too arrogant assuming they are too smart to believe in things that they cannot touch and smell. But that is not what scientists will tell, a true scientist will tell that he doesn't know anything outside of his field of expertise. As far as Tao or God is concerned it is outside of the field of any science, hence it has nothing to do with being knowledgable in a field of science. Most of the time people with little intellects and loud mouths who are far-far away from science will claim that there is no God because they know science So they will parade their ignorance at the same time rejecting morality because it is always convenient to not be moral, and they have also invented an excuse - they are modern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Ok! Way to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Sasun - you just know too much... "To know is not to know" Lao Tzu Nice little summation of Daoism - pay special attention to the discussion of Dao vs God (not the same) and the fact that the Dao is indifferent to human affairs http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/laotzu.htm "Philosophical Taoism overlaps in many respects with Scientific Pantheism. Both are non-dualist, and deny that spirit and matter are separate substances. Both are non-theist, and deny the existence of any personal creator God or supernatural realm. Yet both have a deeply religious reverence for nature and the universe. Both stress the importance of living in harmony with nature. If you are attracted to the Taoism of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, then you will find scientific pantheism totally congenial." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Also folks may want to check out the concept of Scientific Pantheism....(which IMO totally obviates Sasun's attack against science) http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/index.htm "A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge." Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot (1994) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Taoist Beliefs and Practices: Tao is the first-cause of the universe. It is a force that flows through all life. "The Tao surrounds everyone and therefore everyone must listen to find enlightenment." Each believer's goal is to become one with the Tao. The concept of a personified deity is foreign, as is the concept of the creation of the universe. Thus, they do not pray as Christians do; there is no God to hear the prayers or to act upon them. They seek answers to life's problems through inner meditation and outer observation. Taoists generally have an interest in promoting health and vitality. Development of virtue is one's chief task. The Three Jewels to be sought are compassion, moderation and humility. Taoists follow the art of "wu wei," which is to let nature take its course. For example, one should allow a river to flow towards the sea unimpeded; do not erect a dam which would interfere with its natural flow. A Taoists is kind to other individuals, largely because such an action tends to be reciprocated. Taoists believe that "people are compassionate by nature...left to their own devices [they] will show this compassion without expecting a reward." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 You might even like this site Sasun... http://www.yakrider.com/christianity/Christianity.htm And for Gevo - the test with which I chalenged him a ways back - (note I might not totaly agree with this guys interpretation of this passage...) “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” Jesus continued: "You know the commandments: Do not murder; Do not commit adultery; Do not steal; Do not bear false witness; Do not defraud; Honor your father and mother.” The man said, “Rabbi, all these have I kept since I was a boy.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “There is one thing you lack: go, sell all you have and give it to the poor, and you will have heavenly treasure; then come and follow me.” When the man heard this his face clouded over and he went away sick at heart, for he was a man who had large estates. And Jesus looked around at his disciples and said, “Children, how hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” What is good? Jesus ignored the man's claims to following an abstract code and asked the man to do one thing based on true compassion instead of moral conceptualism. And, you want to know eternal life? A camel doesn’t get through the eye of a needle unless it becomes nothing. Jesus told his followers. “Unless your righteousness is deeper than the righteousness of the scribes [copyists of the written religious/moral law], you will never enter the kingdom of God.” Confucius said it in his way, “Goody-goodies are the thieves of virtue.” There is no real way to practice a Christianity that has become destitute of its deeper, or mystical, element. We are left with shallow Jesus-imitations but without daring to or knowing how to really live in his freedom, love, confidence or mind-heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 And more from the same (above link) When one speaks of “God” it is a noise, a concept, a notion, an abstraction, not the reality. Just as you cannot get wet in the word "water," neither can you get saved in a concept or notion of God. Nevertheless, we cling to the notion as a mental idol. The Reality is beyond what we can talk about. As soon as we begin to talk about God, it is no longer God we are talking about. Lao Tzu knew the same in relation to Tao, and opens with: "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; the name that can be named is not the eternal Name.” Tao means “word” or “way” (among other meanings) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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