gurgen Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 But we are talking about prison and we are talking about a part of the world that is in huge chaos. Gee I wonder who caused a large part of that chaos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtraHye Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 How would you explain the beheading of Nick Berg??? I had the misfortune of seeing the while video, it was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 2 wrongs don't make a right. Just because they are doing awful things is not an excuse for US to act horrible as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 ... it was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life!!! Even worse than Ron Jeremy? I totally agree Azat and I also agree Vava. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) I agree with Vava and Azat, BUT!!! I think all this thing has been overexposed on the media, like if it was the worst thing ever. Face it guys, those kind of things happens regulraly in any armies. I am not trying to justify it, I am just disgusted of the overexposure. Edited May 12, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Face it guys, those kind of things happens regulraly in any armies. That is why a lot of people have been against war in general and against this war in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 What we shouldn't lose perspective of is whether what goes on in those prisons have actually improved since the US has moved in. I have this strange feeling that they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 That is why a lot of people have been against war in general and against this war in particular. Exactly!!! People should not forget it is a war, prisoners are taken, and not well treated, it is not their treatment that is the problem but the war itself. I am just sick of the overexposition of the treatment of those prisoners, the terrorists and sick minds are laughing up their @ss here. What I find really disgusting is those terrorists cutting the head of someone and using it as a pretext, when everyone knows that the ill treatment of the prisoners had nothing to do with their decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Exactly!!! People should not forget it is a war, prisoners are taken, and not well treated, it is not their treatment that is the problem but the war itself. I am just sick of the overexposition of the treatment of those prisoners, the terrorists and sick minds are laughing up their @ss here. What I find really disgusting is those terrorists cutting the head of someone and using it as a pretext, when everyone knows that the ill treatment of the prisoners had nothing to do with their decision. Agreed Domino, but on the other hand the US authorities would always point out that their army, their war is different, it is humanistic, liberating, etc. There is a great deal of hypocricy involved, everyone can now see that after all the US army is not much different than most other armies, and the US aggression is not much different than any other power's aggression. I think this is the main trouble in the US reality vs. US rhetoric. As to beheading and other cruelties - that is much worse than US actions, there is no doubt about it. However, those fanatics live in the middle ages. They never hide or misrepresent what they do, they never parade as democrats, they are not hypocrites. Not that it justifies any of their actions but this difference should be pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Sasun, a war is a war. I was really not surprised at all after of the treatment of the prisoners. Clear wars might exist in another universe, but yet we still havn't decided to live in such a universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Exactly!!! People should not forget it is a war, prisoners are taken, and not well treated, it is not their treatment that is the problem but the war itself. I am just sick of the overexposition of the treatment of those prisoners, the terrorists and sick minds are laughing up their @ss here. What I find really disgusting is those terrorists cutting the head of someone and using it as a pretext, when everyone knows that the ill treatment of the prisoners had nothing to do with their decision. Your words could have come from a typical Turkish about "the so-called Armenian genocide". The usual "it was war, people die during war, lots of other people died as well as Armenians, why are you constantly going on and on about it, it is just used as an excuse for ASALA terrorists, etc, etc". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Steve, illtreatment of war prisoners is expected and happens on every wars, I am not justifying it, I am only saying that the problem is not the illtreatment of prisoners, because that is something that happen with every wars, the real problem is the war itself. A genocide is entirly another issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Steve, illtreatment of war prisoners is expected and happens on every wars, I am not justifying it, I am only saying that the problem is not the illtreatment of prisoners, because that is something that happen with every wars, the real problem is the war itself. A genocide is entirly another issue. You are wrong. During WW2 I don't recall anything like this happening in POW camps in Nazi Germany, or in Britain or Canada or America. The problem has not arisen because of war, the problem has arisen because of the culture that initiated that war. If there is something rotten at the heart of America's occupying forces in Iraq then it is because there is something rotten at the heart of the American Establishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Sasun, a war is a war. I was really not surprised at all after of the treatment of the prisoners. Domino, I was surprised, but now that I think I should not have been surprised after knowing about the sub-human, unlawful treatment of Guantanamo Bay prisoners. Clear wars might exist in another universe, but yet we still havn't decided to live in such a universe. Obviously, the US administration had wanted everyone to believe that we live in such a universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Though of course similar and far worse things did happen in prison camps run by the Japanese, or in camps for Russian prisoners, or in concentration camps. That is because they were all run on the ideological basis that those imprisoned were considered to be subhuman. Which will also be the reason for the abuses in the prisons in Iraq, and all the things that are going on there and the prisons in Afghanistan and Cuba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 (edited) What you say is highly innacurate Steve. Soldiers place themselves in every s.t possible in every wars. The illtreatment of prisoners has been a concern for the Red Cross and other organizations for over half century. "Recall" does not mean it does not happen, you must be naive to believe that. Come on Steve, have you never been victim of college initiations? Some times they do very sick things. :-) Our Canadian soldiers(Vava could confirm here) years ago did worst in Somalia. I am shocked of what happened, but not surprised at all. Edited May 12, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Though of course similar and far worse things did happen in prison camps run by the Japanese, or in camps for Russian prisoners, or in concentration camps. That is because they were all run on the ideological basis that those imprisoned were considered to be subhuman. Which will also be the reason for the abuses in the prisons in Iraq, and all the things that are going on there and the prisons in Afghanistan and Cuba. Steve, correct me if I am wrong here, but those prisoners were illtreated before their interogation. I suggest you to "run" a search on the French army practices or the British one regarding the preparation of the prisoners before their interogations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Come on Steve, have you never been victim of college initiations? Some times they do very sick things. :-) Haha! You have just made my point. There is no such thing as "college initiations" in Britain or Europe, even after decades of Hollywood films showing it. It is a particular "feature" of North American culture, especially American. And while the desired end result of the abusers in colleges or prisons might be different, their ability to commit the abuse without any thought that it might be morally wrong is exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Steve, correct me if I am wrong here, but those prisoners were illtreated before their interogation. I suggest you to "run" a search on the French army practices or the British one regarding the preparation of the prisoners before their interogations. Domino - "interrogation" itself is ill-treatment. And is illegal under the Geneva convention since all any prisoner in wartime needs to give is his name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 After seeing a few pictures I understood what Cheney meant by welcoming Americans with "open arms". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 There is no such thing as "college initiations" in Britain or Europe Still very popular in Holland in fraternities, mostly the "aristocratic" kind. But I do agree that Americans, like with most other things, push it to the extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyEyes Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 and the anger displayed in the Iraqi photo is a direct result of the photo next to it....like I said if my father had been humiliated in that manner I would do far worse to any American soldier I could lay my hands on. Armenia just happens ot be in that part of the world, and the US portrays itself as a beacon of freedom and democracy.... What was the cause of Daniel Pearl's beheading? Weren't the burned bodies of the American civilians being hung off the bridges and celebrated BEFORE the prisoner abuses were made public? The soldiers who participated in the disgusting behavior were trained to kill, but you are just a civilian thousands of miles away from war and bloodshead. Yet you say you'd do far worse to those soldiers had that been your father being treated that way. What does far worse mean, beheading a human being, perhaps? Why do we expect the people directly involved in gunbattles to show human decency, when people like us get the desire to do "far worse" while sitting in our nice comfy homes and watching a few pictures on televison? Wars suck, they bring out the savage animal in humans. But before we go on condemning all of America, let's remember that it was also Americans who brought the prisoner abuse to light, Americans who made it public for the whole world to know, and Americans who are outraged and asking for answers. That's still more democratic than anything most of the Middle East has ever known. Too bad for them and the US that they have all the oil we all want so badly. Otherwise they'd be left alone to handle their Saddams any way they liked (and we'd be meddling in some other country's people's lives, trying to bring them "freedom and democracy"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 What was the cause of Daniel Pearl's beheading? Weren't the burned bodies of the American civilians being hung off the bridges and celebrated BEFORE the prisoner abuses were made public? They were not "civilians" - the US government has refused to say what they were doing in Iraq, or why they were in the area where they were killed. I.e. they were probably undercover US agents, either military or cia, and were thus as legitimate a target as anyone in uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 They were not "civilians" - the US government has refused to say what they were doing in Iraq, or why they were in the area where they were killed. I.e. they were probably undercover US agents, either military or cia, and were thus as legitimate a target as anyone in uniform. What difference does it make? Look Steve I was one of the first here opposing US invasion of Iraq. But even I have enought of this anti-Americanism. Americans get burned you hear it few times. Completly innocent people going there to help Iraqies are ubducted by morons, criminals, disgusting animals, actually I am insulting animals, the most brutal would be considered more human. Was the invasion a mistake? Yes it was. But bashing at the US because of those prisoners is pure hypocrasy, people just use anything they can find to bash at the US, if it is not those pictures it will be something else. OK! Now, we all know what happened, those people will get trials and probably charged... I really don't know what to add more, as I am really disgusted of US foreign politics and don't want to support them more than I should, but one thing is certain, the US is on the floor, bashing it or attacking it more will harm not only them at this point, but the western world... those Islamist fanatics now have some ellement in their hands to recycle over, over and over again... and for me choosing between those terrorist things and the Americans is pretty easy. There was really an unhuman thing that has been done the last few days, and it was not the treatment of those prisoners, but rather the butchery of that American soldier, I was even not able to watch that even when I knew that most of the part was cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted May 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 There was really an unhuman thing that has been done the last few days, and it was not the treatment of those prisoners, but rather the butchery of that American soldier, I was even not able to watch that even when I knew that most of the part was cut. Domino, whats the difference between beheading someone and blowing someone up with a long-range missile when the end result is the same? These 'barbarians' dont have missiles and tanks, so they make do with what they got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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