Halacoglus "study" Finally Out?

[DominO123]

Anadolu Agency

may 6 2004

 

I am looking forward reading that book.

 

-----------

Allegations On Armenian Genocide Refuted With A Scientific Study

 

ANKARA - Turkish History Institution Chairman Prof. Dr. Yusuf

Halacoglu has said that Armenians' allegations on genocide were

nothing but political propaganda, adding scientific facts refuted the

allegations.

 

Holding a press conference to promote a book entitled ''Armenians:

Exile and Migration'' of historians Hikmet Ozdemir, Kemal Cicek, Omer

Turan and Ramazan Calik, Prof. Dr. Halacoglu said on Thursday, ''the

book was prepared examining nearly 15 thousand documents in archives

of the western countries. The study lasted for about one an half

years. These documents in the book will completely refute allegations

put forward by Armenians so far.''

 

''Under the light of data in western sources, Armenian population in

1914 was 1 million 400 thousand. Despite disease, losses stemming

from wars and all other factors, Armenian population rose to 1

million 700 thousand in 1918. These figures unveil wrongfulness of

allegations saying that 1.5 million Armenians were exposed to

genocide,'' he stressed.

 

Prof. Dr. Halacoglu emphasized that those allegations would be

discussed with Armenians in a scientific platform in Austrian capital

Vienna in 2005 for the first time.

 

''A preparatory meeting will take place in Vienna on July 25, 2004 to

this end. Actually, I do not know whether Armenians could dare to

attend the meeting after all these data obtained from the western

sources. We will attend the meeting with documents from archives of

Russia, the United States, Britain, Germany, France and Iran besides

Ottoman era archives. Participants will be obliged to show original

documents. Our archives are open while Armenian archives are still

closed. We will stipulate Armenians existence of original

documents,'' he said.

 

Prof. Dr. Halacoglu added, ''efforts to refute baseless allegations

of Armenians are as important as the Cyprus issue.''

 

Since 1965, the Armenians have been accusing the Turks of an alleged

genocide. Armenian enmity against the Turks began with the voluntary

Armenian troops in the Russian Army, and at last Armenian thuggery

reached its peak in the beginning of the 20th century. Many Turkish

people were killed by Armenian thuggery.

 

April 24, 1915 was the day in which the Ottoman Empire began to

arrest the Armenian thuggery. On this date, the Armenian Committee

centers were closed, their documents were confiscated, and the

leaders were arrested. The Ottoman Empire tried to prevent the events

by sending instructions to many cities. As a result of these

instructions, 2 thousand 345 people were arrested. The Armenians

exploits this date since the leaders of the revolutionists were

arrested on the date.

 

The so-called Armenian genocide allegations caused assassinations of

many Turkish officials. Between 1973 and 1985, Armenian terrorist

organization of ASALA staged several act of terrorism against Turkish

diplomats abroad. 34 people lost their lives in these heinous acts in

19 separate countries.

[DominO123]

"April 24, 1915 was the day in which the Ottoman Empire began to

arrest the Armenian thuggery. On this date, the Armenian Committee

centers were closed, their documents were confiscated, and the

leaders were arrested. The Ottoman Empire tried to prevent the events

by sending instructions to many cities. As a result of these

instructions, 2 thousand 345 people were arrested. The Armenians

exploits this date since the leaders of the revolutionists were

arrested on the date."

 

One just wonder, if in fact the Armenians have planned a revolution, how come in Uras files or the so-called collections of Armenian documents "confiscated" we find nothing indicating Armenian planned revolutions. The Ottoman seized the Bureaus of the revolutionary federations, they had translators under their disposal, but found nothing better than what what we know as Uras "files."

[DominO123]

"The Armenians exploits this date since the leaders of the revolutionists were arrested on the date."

 

Shish, we had 2,345 leaders of the revolutionists, we had more leaders of revolutionists than there were Ottoman generals.

Edited May 7, 2004 by Fadix

[DominO123]

"Since 1965, the Armenians have been accusing the Turks of an alleged

genocide."

 

Ever wondered this recent 1965 date brought by Turkish newspapers?

 

1965 was the date the Turks decided to rewrite history... in Turkish records, all their "fight" starts in 1965, the date of the commemoration of the Armenian genocide. The "other side" emblem was born.

[DominO123]

One wonder why Halacoglu will go as far as supposedly searching in foreign sources... when Turkish sources clearly shows us what really happened. Like what was persented at the Third session of the Martial Court, on the date of April 1, 1919. Here quotting from it:

 

"Moreover, Dr. Ziya Fuad, health services inspector of Trabzon at the time of the massacres, and Dr. Adnan, public health services director of Trabzon, also submitted affïdavits (authenticated oaths) which corroborate the charges of poisoning and drowning of children.

 

The killings by poisoning were not taking place on the regular sites of the Red Crescent Hospital but in two school buildings being used as collecting places for children divided for distribution (for some among them) and for destruction (of the remainder). Nail, Ittihad deputy, and Dr. Saib, Health inspector, would provide the lists of the victims which would be then collected by Turkish women employees of these schools. On the mezzanine floor of one of those schools there was a room covered with tiles that was supposedly vapour bathroom (islim). The Turkish women would accompany the groups of young children to this part for a steam bath. First we didn't realize what was happening. But one day we heard cries that abruptly ceased and were followed by a deathly silence. We then paid closer attention to what was happening. The baskets at the door of the "disinfection" hall told everything. It appears that Dr. Saib used the term" islim" to attract and trap the victims in a kind of toxic mortal gas chamber. Those baskets were used elsewhere, such as at the Red Crescent Hospital, then the bodies of the dead or dying were disposed by dumping them in the Black Sea nearby

 

The testimony of Dr. Adnan, public health services director of Trabzon, established that the poisoning practices(liquids, injections) of children was not limited to the red Crescent installations, but was practiced in the "school buildings"; the extermination was followed by "their layouts in baskets."

 

Source: Third Session p.m., of the Martial Court, April 1, 1919. Published in the Turkish newspaper "La Renaissance, 27 April 1919.

Edited May 7, 2004 by Fadix

[Stormig]

''the

book was prepared examining nearly 15 thousand documents in archives

of the western countries. The study lasted for about one an half

years. These documents in the book will completely refute allegations

put forward by Armenians so far.''

Impressive! Super Turk! 15 thousand documents in 1.5 years. Assuming that's what they're going to put in their "reference list," that's twenty-seven documents a day. A team of more than 5 members won't go too far. That's five documents per person per day for you. I myself can't handle more than about 200 documents a year - handle in terms of research, seek, study, examine, eliminate, process, etc.

Also - 15 thousand documents per their favourite number of Armenians - 1.5 million - that's one document about Armenians per 100 Armenians. And this is in the West, like they had nothing better to do. Quite amazing, even with the invention of the printing press. Oh wait, that explains it.

[gurgen]

What a wanker. I can do his 'study' in two hours, they should hire me

[Sip]

Impressive! Super Turk! 15 thousand documents in 1.5 years. Assuming that's what they're going to put in their "reference list," that's twenty-seven documents a day. A team of more than 5 members won't go too far. That's five documents per person per day for you. ...

I did the exact same caculation yesterday when I read this but didn't post it.

[DominO123]

Impressive! Super Turk! 15 thousand documents in 1.5 years. Assuming that's what they're going to put in their "reference list," that's twenty-seven documents a day. A team of more than 5 members won't go too far. That's five documents per person per day for you. I myself can't handle more than about 200 documents a year - handle in terms of research, seek, study, examine, eliminate, process, etc.

Also - 15 thousand documents per their favourite number of Armenians - 1.5 million - that's one document about Armenians per 100 Armenians. And this is in the West, like they had nothing better to do. Quite amazing, even with the invention of the printing press. Oh wait, that explains it.

Stormig, it is obvious that it is a lie dear.

 

Even if his team could have examined that much documents(being supermen), they could never found the permission to research that much documents over a small periods like 1.5 years. There are limits of documents, periods of times allowed, they have to renew their permissions every few months(the best permission they could obtain) and wait for it.

 

Halacoglu never left Turkey in all those "reports" of his so-called research that now is published under the disguise of other "researchers" name. How can you research that much documents in Western countries archives without setting a foot on those countries?

 

Even more, having myself done some research in Quebec government records, examining documents is not the problem, finding the document over thousands and thousands is the real problem. If they have examined 15 thousands of documents, this would mean that they have researched over hundreds of thousands of documents and came accross 15 thousands that concerned the question treated. I dought that Dadrian in his over 25 years of research, researched that much documents.

[mx5]

how about 3 hundred thousan skeletons found in a single cavy area in syrian desert Deir Zor,that is written in the syrian goverment archieves,

 

I think they are betting on the new generation Armenians short memory and passiveness!!!

Edited May 9, 2004 by mx5

[gurgen]

And their inability to read

[KnightOfArmenia]

It's times like this when I have to remind myself that good turks also exist: I point to Taner Akcam and Kemal Yalcin; hell, the latter also says that we should have our Hayrenik returned to us.

[Armat]

It's times like this when I have to remind myself that good turks also exist: I point to Taner Akcam and Kemal Yalcin; hell, the latter also says that we should have our Hayrenik returned to us.

The

lecture with Kemal Yalcin also included poetry and music from Armenia.

 

At the end Yalcin said: “I am ashamed of bieng a turk

and of my nation. I shame for what we did against you Armenians,

Assyrians and Greeks. My Armenian and Assyrian brothers, I apologise

to you for the genocide that the racist Ittihat and Terakki did

against you in my nations name. Again, I apologise to you !!!

 

Wow ,I am speechless.I never heard a true apology coming from a turkish intelectual.

[Stormig]

“I am ashamed of bieng a turk

and of my nation. I shame for what we did against you Armenians,

Assyrians and Greeks. My Armenian and Assyrian brothers, I apologise

to you for the genocide that the racist Ittihat and Terakki did

against you in my nations name. Again, I apologise to you !!!

 

Wow ,I am speechless.I never heard a true apology coming from a turkish intelectual.

That is super pathetic, not an apology. Is there nothing in between the two extremes?

[Armat]

That is super pathetic, not an apology. Is there nothing in between the two extremes?

Which part is pathetic?or which part is not true apology?I like his honest feelings and feeling ashamed is not "pathetic" as I assume you were perhaps offended by that.

Do I sense that when an honest Turk says I acknowledge the AG and ashamed of what my country did is somehow not measure of a proud Turk? Or do I assume Turks are special breed of humans that they can be proud of everything simultaneity without reservations.

I met lot of decent Germans who were ashamed of what Nazis did moreover it had no baring on their moral overall as Germans.

Edited May 11, 2004 by Armat

[Arpa]

I have not followed this thread closeley. In fact I don't know who Halac and Kemal are. Do they have any official capacity? However, all of a sudden this much tears and apologies (? talk is cheap) reminds one of crocodiles, and ... before we lower our vardiks again let us be absolutely sure that they are not behind the line plants, not the proverbial "trojan horse". Remember they have been accusing us as being the "fifth column".

[ED]

That is super pathetic, not an apology. Is there nothing in between the two extremes?

If we take those words as face value, then there is nothing pathetic about it.

 

If we take and draw a parallel as to what ottomans did and what current Turkish government stand is (and this may also include this man) that is pathetic and disgusting, in that case I agree with you.

 

So, which part is pathetic Stromig?

[bellthecat]

Which part is pathetic?or which part is not true apology?I like his honest feelings and feeling ashamed is not "pathetic" as I assume you were perhaps offended by that.

Because it is so grovellingly pathetic that not only does it appear that he has some sort of personality problem, but it is so extreme that nobody in Turkey would wish to associate with such a person's statements.

 

It is the attitudes of the current Turkish Establishment and their supporters that he should be ashamed of, because they are acting in the name of Turks today. But maybe he thinks it safer to be ashamed of long-dead individuals and organisations.

[Stormig]

I met lot of decent Germans who were ashamed of what Nazis did moreover it had no baring on their moral overall as Germans.

Ah, please! You just made it obvious yourself! You said the Germans were ashamed of the Nazis, not of being Germans themselves. Replace "Turk" with "German" in what you paraphrased and read it over. That, too, would have been pathetic. I would never trust a Croat, a Serb, a German, a Hutu, an Israeli, or a Turk who said they were ashamed of what they were because their kin, in the past or in the actual, committed genocide against a nation. What BS. Like Steve, I would suspect a personality problem, and a grave one. Certainly not a person to receive accolade. What a hopeless person - some difference he will make. <_<

[Armat]

I would never trust a Croat, a Serb, a German, a Hutu, an Israeli, or a Turk who said they were ashamed of what they were because their kin, in the past or in the actual, committed genocide against a nation. What BS. Like Steve, I would suspect a personality problem, and a grave one. Certainly not a person to receive accolade. What a hopeless person - some difference he will make. <_<

Perhaps you are missing the subtlety of the apology. Being ashamed of horrible deeds your countryman did is shall we say honest? Direct? Shows depth of character otherwise you are applying that any honest Turk who is ashamed of the AG must have a personality disorder! Now this is real pathetic.

Just so there is no confusion being ashamed is referred to the deed the AG not in the context of everything Turkish is shameful.

There is no middle ground! Either what the Turks did were a cowardly shameful horrible act or what they did deserves honor, pride along those lines.

[Sasun]

This maybe an issue that has to do with Turkish ethical norms or Turkish pshyche. If an individual has done wrong and acknowledges and apologizes that doesn't mean he is a bad person. On the contrary, that will only speak of integrity. Is this true for Turkish culture? If no then there is a problem. If yes then I don't understand Stormig's point.

Obviously, this is not a personal issue, and the apology is not on a personal level. Rather, Turkish individuals are speaking on behalf of their ancestors to the degree that they feel associated and responsible for their acts. In doing so not only they do not lower themselves personally but also they stand taller because they are cleansing the shame out of collective Turkish identity. Such individuals will only be respected and admired for their personal integrity and courage (assuming they are not faking).

[Stormig]

Perhaps you are missing the subtlety of the apology. Being ashamed of horrible deeds your countryman did is shall we say honest? Direct? Shows depth of character otherwise you are applying that any honest Turk who is ashamed of the AG must have a personality disorder! Now this is real pathetic.

This is going to sound kookoo, but if you are who I think you are, you once wrote me a poem.

It seems I can't get my point across. I can't ever imagine Chomsky saying he was ashamed of his nation the U.S. of A. and of being an American, yet he is respected for his objectivity, honesty, etc. This is where the divergence is and this is where the patheticism comes in. It is intellectuals like him that people look up to, for hope, for change, for enlightenment - not the Britney Spear wannabes of goodness knows what school. ("Ooooooo, I'm a virgin, I'm so different, oooooooooooo!!!" and "I'm so ashamed of everything I'd die if you asked me to, just pay me attention, I'd say anything!") Has it at all caught your attention as to why I asked why it seems there is nothing in between the two extremes? Well, OK, maybe that was too harsh, but you really have only a handful of the more or less reasonable and then those that either deny to the end of the world or "people" like this person who definitely have security issues. However, if you say you paraphrased him inaccurately, then I am willing to review my opinion about this person.

 

Read this, and if you still insist on telling me it doesn't sound pathetic to have sweeping comments about one's own nation to the point of disowning AND the Nazis to blame (gee, why bother?) in the consecutive sentences, then I have nothing more to say to any of you:

 

“I am ashamed of bieng a German

and of my nation. I shame for what we did against you Jews,

Armenians, and Hereros. My etc. and etc. brothers, I apologise

to you for the genocide that the racist Nazi did

against you in my nations name. Again, I apologise to you !!!"

 

So honest Germans, Germans that acknowledge the Holocaust, shouldn't be able to sleep at night?

Edited May 12, 2004 by Stormig

[DominO123]

I have his complete speech, to say the truth, I agree with Stormig... how can we expect those intellectuals being supported by turks(which should be the aim here), when he tell us he is ashamed of being a Turk? Furthermore, the Armenian genocide was not a racist act, because the Turks converted by force Armenians, and adopted Armenian children to turkify them. Edited May 12, 2004 by Fadix

[Sasun]

Furthermore, the Armenian genocide was not a racist act, because the Turks converted by force Armenians, and adopted Armenian children to turkify them.

Are you serious Domino??? So forced conversion and persecution for ones race is not a racist act?

[DominO123]

Are you serious Domino??? So forced conversion and persecution for ones race is not a racist act?

Sasun, when I reffer to racism, I am talking about the real definition of the word, and not the one generally used. Racism is about classifications of people based on races, "superior" and "inferior" races. The Turks were not considering Armenians as inferiors like the NAZI did with other people. The reason why the Armenians were exterminated had nothing to do with race classifications. If you consider a people as racially inferior, why will you steal their wives and breed them? Why will you take orphans and "convert" them to another nationhood? A racist would consider this as attempt against the purity of his race. Dadrian rightly differenciate a racial crime and the Armenian genocide in his essay on the Turkish physicians role in the genocide.