Halacoglus "study" Finally Out?

[THOTH]

I agree completely with everything TB and Armat have said here. All Turks (who know/understand anything concerning the Genocide and the humilations and massacres preceeding it) should be ashamed - very ashamed - ashamed at the horrible things that were done - by Turks - in the name of Turkism (essentially/at least in part) - and yes - of course - ashamed of being Turkish - based on this legacy alone. Just as I am (truly & scincerely) ashamed of being an American in regards to the recent events in Iraq - crimes and misdeeds commited by Americans and (larger) actions justified in the name of American interests etc. And I am ashamed of being American (and even of Western European dissent) for past crimes against the indigineous peoples of the Americas. Of course I am - what person of concious could not be! Even being only part German - and even when my family had left one hundred years before the Holocaust - i have a certain shame in regards to my Germaness. Becuase these horrible deeds were caused by my people - people like me - of whom I am a descendent. I believe that people who don't feel a sense of shame for these deeds are either callous or ignorant. And in regards to Turks - with the ongoing denial - there is even more to cause one shame for being one whose people are party to such.

 

Websters:

Main Entry: shame

Pronunciation: 'shAm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame

1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion

2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY

3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame

Edited May 14, 2004 by THOTH

[bellthecat]

Websters:

Main Entry: shame

Pronunciation: 'shAm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame

1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion

2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY

Huh, Thoth, you're the last person I'd be expecting to be citing the meanings of the word shame.

 

The word I want Turks to start using is not, and never will be, shame.

 

The word I want to hear is REGRET. That is still a feeling that has some sincerity behind it. And regret has a greater "depth" in time. The regret would not just be a regret for things that happened almost 90 years ago, but a regret for a loss that Turks and Turkey (as well as Armenia and Armenians) can still feel today if it is properly explained what has been lost. And this, its ability to be contemporary and inclusive, means that it is both more valuable, and more genuine, and more acceptable.

 

All unlike that snivelling fraud called "shame". Just change that word's pronounciation from an "A" as in cane to an "A" as in apple to reach its real meaning today: a sham.

[Boghos]

Personal issues aside (Steve, please...) I much prefer "regret". Shame sounds more politically correct but it is indeed too Spielbergeresque. Edited May 14, 2004 by Boghos

[bellthecat]

Personal issues aside (Steve, please...) I much prefer "regret". Shame sounds more politically correct but it is indeed too Spielbergeresque.

Yes, sorry.

 

And "regret" is both softer and less antagonistic - it is something that one feels on ones own accord, and is not, like shame, something that is forced upon someone.

[Armat]

And "regret" is both softer and less antagonistic - it is something that one feels on ones own accord, and is not, like shame, something that is forced upon someone.

Actually regret sound like a business proposition gone wrong in board meeting not appropriate in the context of genocides. Just imagine Germans saying we regret about the holocaust. Like it was light enough events that require no more emotional input. Much like picnic got ruin by the rain…

Shame does not have to be forced upon a person but that person will feel it when truly understanding the gravity of crimes.

 

If and when a Turkish politician says I regret about the AG but offered no apology then that regret could be described as mediocre real politics.

Edited May 14, 2004 by Armat

[THOTH]

Shame is a word, a concept which is used in Anthropological circles to describe contrition and REGRET (and look at the Webster definition that I provided..3. ...something to be regretted) - more then just the internalized guilt - but as the first step in seeking forgiveness from others by aknowledging that whatever was done to warrant such (censure etc form others) was henious and uncalled for and that the perpetrator(s) has/have internalized this fact and that they realize that they have gone beyond the norm and hurt others - etc . This is the idea is that they are shamed before the eyes of all others - they feel regret (for the hurt) and remorse and are then in the position (where they are expected) to make amends. I think shame is exactly what any Turk with a concious - with a heart should feel concerning the deeds of their forfathers/predecessors and their continued campaign to deny Armenains any justice or (at least) recognition/acknowledgement.

 

Regret is but an (insufficient - but of course one would certainly hope there is at least this) subset of shame (or the process of being ashamed and moving on to atonement - etc). To only feel regret - it could be that perhaps they regret not having finished the job, or regret that others are down on them becuse of these actions/events..it is the shame - that one feels - beyond just regret - that properly describes how a human being should feel about all the innocents that were merceilesly slaughtered, towns, villages and an entire society destroyed, and it is entirely shameful how the Turkish society has continued to perpetuate the pain, suffering and unrepentant slanders and attacks against Armenians even to this day. Shmae is a necessary preconditon for any subsequant healing - without it - everything else is hollow - meaningless.

 

Ah this is good really - to think this issue through a bit - as tonight - in concert with several other Armenians in my area - I make a multi-media presentation of/about Armenians to a group of students (they specially invited me to join them!). My portion is discussion of the Genocide and of the lost legacy of Armenians in Anatolia. I must take a poll after to see how the audience feels about whether or not the Turks of today should feel shame for what was done...or perhaps should the whole issue just be forgotten...

[Boghos]

I think regret is more appropriate because first it is more authentic and second it at this point in time it makes more sense. Gult feelings, shame can only be attributed to those that comitted the crimes, not his descendents. But at the end of the day that is discussing, as we say, the sex of the angels.

[Twilight Bark]

Indeed regret is already contained in "shame". But I need to emphasize once again that the shame we should be talking about is not of the personal kind when it comes to the act of genocide itself; today's Turks did not commit it and they do not need to feel personally ashamed of it. The shame is about the traits of an ethnic identity that justified genocide, still glorifies its perpetrators, and still glorifies and longs for conquests and domination. You cannot regret your way out of that identity. To reform it, you have to be ashamed of its shameful traits first. It's "I am ashamed of those things", and not "I am ashamed of myself". Regret says "Oops what a bad thing to have done", without much further reflection or change. Being ashamed of something is indeed a stronger and more relevantly, a transforming experience. And I would like to repeat that I am reflecting philosophically and not "diplomatically" or in any "utilitarian" sense. That is, I don't expect Turks to do anything beyond a grudging "regret". But that is beside the point.

[hytga]

let me jump in with my few cents. if you don't mind of course. regret can be a confusing term.

if a turk today says i regret what happened, then what does he really mean? does he regret that not all armenians were killed. does he regret that the genocide happened because of his moral values? does he regret the that the genocide happened because today it only damages the image of turkey?

 

on the other hand i don't thnk a turk shoud feel ashamed for what his ancestors did. he shoud be ashamed for himself for denying the genocide, and as twilight said glorifying it's perpetrators.

 

that's why both terms are inapropriate when used individually, but they'll be appropriate if used together.

 

one cannot regret the AG (in strictly morall point of view) and at the same time not feel ashamed for denying it.

[THOTH]

TB - and don't you think I understand this....

 

and hytga - yes and no - I understand your point - but yes - they should be ashamed - and this is my point...

Edited May 15, 2004 by THOTH

[THOTH]

The shame is about the traits of an ethnic identity that justified genocide, still glorifies its perpetrators, and still glorifies and longs for conquests and domination. You cannot regret your way out of that identity. To reform it, you have to be ashamed of its shameful traits first. It's "I am ashamed of those things", and not "I am ashamed of myself". Regret says "Oops what a bad thing to have done", without much further reflection or change. Being ashamed of something is indeed a stronger and more relevantly, a transforming experience.

yes

[ED]

Few words

 

 

Its ironic how some can flip flop and form an opinion based solely on personal issues.

For this reason I'm sorry to say it’s disgusting and equally shameful to bring such an animosity to this tread and look so ridicules. I hope parties involved will understand this

 

People please, leave your personal issues when you talk about this tread or any tread that has to do with Genocide?

[Boghos]

Indeed regret is already contained in "shame". But I need to emphasize once again that the shame we should be talking about is not of the personal kind when it comes to the act of genocide itself; today's Turks did not commit it and they do not need to feel personally ashamed of it. The shame is about the traits of an ethnic identity that justified genocide, still glorifies its perpetrators, and still glorifies and longs for conquests and domination. You cannot regret your way out of that identity. To reform it, you have to be ashamed of its shameful traits first. It's "I am ashamed of those things", and not "I am ashamed of myself". Regret says "Oops what a bad thing to have done", without much further reflection or change. Being ashamed of something is indeed a stronger and more relevantly, a transforming experience. And I would like to repeat that I am reflecting philosophically and not "diplomatically" or in any "utilitarian" sense. That is, I don't expect Turks to do anything beyond a grudging "regret". But that is beside the point.

Hello TB,

 

I see your point. But is there really any hope for that ? I think on an individual level you can understand certain unpleasant characteristics of your people, but how can "shame" permeate the national conscience when those feelings are those that also make others like "pride" and such, arise ?

[Stormig]

I agree completely with everything TB and Armat have said here. All Turks (who know/understand anything concerning the Genocide and the humilations and massacres preceeding it) should be ashamed - very ashamed - ashamed at the horrible things that were done - by Turks - in the name of Turkism (essentially/at least in part) - and yes - of course - ashamed of being Turkish - based on this legacy alone. Just as I am (truly & scincerely) ashamed of being an American in regards to the recent events in Iraq - crimes and misdeeds commited by Americans and (larger) actions justified in the name of American interests etc. And I am ashamed of being American (and even of Western European dissent) for past crimes against the indigineous peoples of the Americas. Of course I am - what person of concious could not be! Even being only part German - and even when my family had left one hundred years before the Holocaust - i have a certain shame in regards to my Germaness. Becuase these horrible deeds were caused by my people - people like me - of whom I am a descendent. I believe that people who don't feel a sense of shame for these deeds are either callous or ignorant. And in regards to Turks - with the ongoing denial - there is even more to cause one shame for being one whose people are party to such.

 

Websters:

Main Entry: shame

Pronunciation: 'shAm

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame

1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion

2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY

3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY b : a cause of feeling shame

I don't agree with one bit of it. I must be clueless or something – I must be missing a chemical in my brain, for I don’t at all understand it. Today’s Turks did not commit the genocide, granted, TB, but should feel ashamed of being Turkish per this Kemal Yalcin person.

What a Turk can actually really be ashamed of would be, in this context, say, actively perpetrating the denial through their websites, community activities, etc. For me, there are no degrees or levels of shame, or feeling ashamed because of someone else’s actions – either you hang your head or you do not. What about the Turk that came to affirm the genocide first thing he read about Armenians and condemned the perpetrators? What has he got to be ashamed of? I wonder what you expect the many butchers of the Balkans to pass on as legacy to their respective nations, right now, in this lifetime.

I also do not understand the look for the spiritual in acknowledging the genocide. Acknowledging the genocide is more than saying “I am sorry that this took place, I affirm that the genocide took place” and at the same time it is not (“Let’s see that you mean what you say” but also the fact that you can’t tie everyone to a lie-o-meter). We all often use the words “regret,” “repent,” etc., but how appropriate are they? “Repent” sounds as Christian a concept to me as there could be, so I think people should be very careful of what they are demanding be done or said (and, equally importantly, not done and not said), give themselves a reality/definition check.

One can feel ashamed of what their family, as a clan, whatever, does to someone else, going so far as to dissociate from them, express sympathy to the members of the other family, but to stigmatise oneself - feel compelled to proclaim, "I am ashamed of being born a Somethingson and of my family" - and actually get applause for saying such because it has come after decades of clan warfare - I just can't see it. I can’t even imagine what it would take for someone to indulge in this sort of self-flagellation for being part German. One can condemn their country’s policies and forfeit their citizenship for disgust, but how can they still feel “ashamed” of being German and of their nation? This has nothing to do with what bearing it will have on the next generation of Somethingson's to follow or what estates they own or squat on, so let us leave out the "pride" bit.

OK, let's take it to the other extreme. What about being ashamed of being human? We are all "brothers," after all. "I am ashamed of being a human. We've sent so many species into extinction in the rise of our intellect, killed millions of our own as well as ‘theirs,’ etc." A world of good it will do to the human species. Let us all cry on each other’s shoulders and then sit up and give each other a slap and cry some more. Very credible. Usually people who dwell on such thoughts (and rather dwell on than show the real capacity to acknowledge AND inspire) are laughed at, ignored at best. I am aware of what it is to be human in nature’s set, I am aware of the many crimes against humanity, I know and demand that things be changed (and hopefully am doing a bit of good there), but I can’t imagine the philanthropist, the environmentalist, etc., out there, expressing anything remotely close to that to anybody even if they have such thoughts, because they would know they sound pathetic and gulp down their words before someone so much as heard them whimper. It takes more to be noble. Enlighten me if I am missing something. I swear, that line by this Yalcin person was the most pathetic thing I must have read in a while. The more I read it, the more pathetic it reads to me. <_<

[Twilight Bark]

Stormig,

You can't leave "pride" out of it. But let's move on. I actually disagree with Thoth's "shame" about his German or whatever ancestry. That's not what I meant at all. The "shame" is not whether "people in your clan" do or did bad things. Sure we all feel embarrassed and ashamed by what other members of our "group" does. But that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about being ashamed to embrace the contemporary Turkish identity when it has those traits of justifying genocidal acts, glorifying war and conquest, and plain longing for the lost days of empire and glory. If a Turk distances himself/herself from those traits, then that person has nothing to be ashamed of personally, but of course plenty to be embarrassed by association. The tragedy for an anlightened Turk is that, try as she may to be the perfect human being, she cannot by herself change what Turkish culture today is. Perhaps "I am embarrassed" would be a more accurate statement. In any case, I [edit: hope] am able to convey what I mean.

Edited May 16, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[Stormig]

BTW, one thing I had meant to say all along, when I started out with the "performing in front of audiences," was that this Yalcin person's words are specifically tailored for an Armenian audience. Just to set all apart - imagine an audience of Congolese, with some other ethnicities sprinkled here and there - while a Belgian at the podium says what I quoted previously. A Yanomani couldn't care less, unless he were asking himself, "What's with this guy?" and Belgian members of the audience would likely start groping around for tomatoes and rotten eggs, or whatever is suited to their culture. (Somehow I get the idea they wouldn't be moved at all. <_< ) Please note that while the Belgians haven't acknowledged their crimes in the Congo (how funny that some people ask for Sharon's hide), they wouldn't go into denial antics any more than Germans would re the Jews.

[Stormig]

I actually disagree with Thoth's "shame" about his German or whatever ancestry. That's not what I meant at all. The "shame" is not whether "people in your clan" do or did bad things. Sure we all feel embarrassed and ashamed by what other members of our "group" does. But that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about being ashamed to embrace the contemporary Turkish identity when it has those traits of justifying genocidal acts, glorifying war and conquest, and plain longing for the lost days of empire and glory. If a Turk distances himself/herself from those traits, then that person has nothing to be ashamed of personally, but of course plenty to be embarrassed by association. The tragedy for an anlightened Turk is that, try as she may to be the perfect human being, she cannot by herself change what Turkish culture today is. Perhaps "I am embarrassed" would be a more accurate statement. In any case, I am able to convey what I mean.

Somehow I find nothing of that depth in Yalcin's closing words. <_<

[THOTH]

I will be vacationing in Europe this summer. I am expecting to hear a lot of negative views from folks about the USA (concerning Iraq - etc) once folks find out that I am an American. And yes I feel shame (regarding certain US actions etc)and will express that in this context. Yes its embarrassment as well - but a little beyond this I think....am I wrong? Should I just say/think - oh I regret that - but claim its not me so its not my problem? Thats certainly the easy way out of it. And maybe we can rationalize or explain things to justify...but in the end - IMO - if one is truly remorseful etc..its more then just being embarrased..its being ashamed...

[gurgen]

I thought you were Armenian.

[Stormig]

I will be vacationing in Europe this summer. I am expecting to hear a lot of negative views from folks about the USA (concerning Iraq - etc) once folks find out that I am an American. And yes I feel shame (regarding certain US actions etc)and will express that in this context. Yes its embarrassment as well - but a little beyond this I think....am I wrong? Should I just say/think - oh I regret that - but claim its not me so its not my problem? Thats certainly the easy way out of it. And maybe we can rationalize or explain things to justify...but in the end - IMO - if one is truly remorseful etc..its more then just being embarrased..its being ashamed...

Why are you even trying to engineer your behaviour by what others are going to say/think? You don't have to flaunt your admissions to everyone or anyone that scrunches their face and discuss politics with them, get on the defensive. You have a right to get about your business without being harassed or being tried to be "converted," no matter what your stance, for one thing. You know your admissions, that's what counts, you are the one who is going to make a difference if you can even if others don't want you to, and, well, even if you didn't have those admissions, it doesn't change the fact that there's a problem out there. In no way will you have to go in front of a bunch of strangers and go down on your knees in front of them and go on at length about how ashamed you are of being human - sorry, American - unless you wanna be clownish.

[THOTH]

I think you miss my point...anyway...I said nothing about changing any behavior per se (and certainly not in regards to the opinions of others...lol)...I'm going to be honest about how I feel (and how I act etc) - as always - but I do feel shame as an American..and embarrasment...

[Boghos]

Why complicate matters ?

 

Stormig´s second to last post is to the point, I am sorry to say that I have to commend her just for having common sense.

 

Moreover, a person doesn´t embody a government or even a whole people, a state, city, neigbhorhod or even the building he lives in (maybe the house, but only if he is single and deprived of pets or other living companions). Unless you subscribe to stereotypes, which of course would make you a living stereotype and proof perhaps that at least some stereotypes have a degree of truth in them.

 

Armenians, as many other people are prone to stereotyping (typing in their stereos ? ) but focus on Turks, the source of infinite evil and sadism. I concede that my perspective on things finds a sadistic trait on Turks more pronounced than many other peoples. Historical circumstances have made them even worse. This, of course, is no justification for anything, for History has nothing to do with being right or wrong, just or unjust, so on, this exists on a true sense only at an individual level and does not scale up to larger levels. We have to recognize that there are important national characteristics of peoples and that is as far as it goes. You cannot be ashamed of something you did not choose to be or do, but perhaps you can be sorry or regret the treatment of reality. If a Turk came to me and said: "I am sorry for what we did to you", I would hope he finds a good shrink, for that is the expression of a misplaced guilt feeling. I much rather hear, as I did, that: "here is Boghos, from one of the peoples that constitutes our national heritage". It is not only true but it is more authentic. BUt people have different preferences on what they want to hear...

 

Now, on this history of a popular feeling towards whatever issue, how hopeful can we be when millions of people buy products that will make them muscular, sexy, and provide them with an incredible memory among other miracles ? Should we expect that Turks as a whole feel ashamed for whatever reason ? Has any people in history felt truly ashamed of anything ? Not that I recall. Some have learned from the extremes that they can go to in terms of cruelty to others and have put barriers against their own perceived shortcomes. But those are a minority.

 

But as I said countless times it is those with a severe guilt feeling that have the most to gain from acceptance. It has nothing to do with shame but with understanding where they came from.

Edited May 15, 2004 by Boghos

[DominO123]

You know what guys? Only a recognition for me will be enought in what regards the genocide, but, BUT!!! For the denial, if a Turk tell me he is ashamed of being a Turk, I won't find that word exagerated. Because I do believe that any rational Turk that understand the whole thing should be ashamed of this whole denial business that deshumanise the Turkish society.

[bellthecat]

but I do feel shame as an American..and embarrasment...

Apprehension, and maybe fear, would perhaps be more useful emotions for any American now to feel when travelling outside of America. Keep the shame and embarassment for within America.

[Stormig]

You know what guys? Only a recognition for me will be enought in what regards the genocide, but, BUT!!! For the denial, if a Turk tell me he is ashamed of being a Turk, I won't find that word exagerated. Because I do believe that any rational Turk that understand the whole thing should be ashamed of this whole denial business that deshumanise the Turkish society.

I don't think the denial dehumanises Turkish society. In fact, denial should be a consequence of some of that society's characteristics, or lack thereof, as could be other things most people wouldn't be aware of.