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Cultured


Azat

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Sorry did not know where to post this... Could be in the Arts section or the music section.

 

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Yesterday we were having a heated discussion about the good and the bad of Soviet Union and one of the things that my cousin(he is a professional pianist) brought up was that the Arts more specifically classical music and literature thrived under the Soviet regime. I have to say that I could not disagree with this statement. I was only able to think of 3 great composers and 2 ok composer of Classical music of 20th century.(Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Gershwin, Khachaturian, last 2 being just ok compare to the rest) My question is not if the Arts/music thrived under the soviet system, but being cultured.

 

I have many friends who are schooled under the US system(including myself) and I think we have come out of school with a basic knowledge of the world and a good understanding of the subject that is our major. But in talking around the table(and I have known this and thought about this for a long time) I realized how little I know about arts and other things that friends from the Soviet education system do. They are SOOOOO much more cultured than most of my friends of US education system.

 

I'll give you examples of other things. My aunt was telling us how for only 50 kopeks she went to see Khachaturian numerous times. How she and her collage friends use to go and see international classical pianists or orchestras at the Philharmonic. How they use to have a weekly gathering where they would discuss topics of the day which may have included anything from movies to Opera or music or books. And while they did not have access to Televisions they had friends who could play classical piano and sing and each week they would learn new and exciting things.

 

Am I the only one who is starving for these kind of things or are others not able to find this as well as we all are under tremendous pressures of today’s lifestyles that we have chosen that it leaves us little time for anything else.

 

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sorry for blabbering too much.

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You know Azatyush, I was thinking the same thing a while ago. However, I do believe it’s not only in the Former Union, it’s pretty much everywhere else except for the US. Many of the brilliant minds are either immigrants or children of immigrants. I think partially it’s because here we are surrounded by the abundance of information and a limitless access to all of the possible resources. In the Soviet Union, the main goal was geared towards programming people with a communist mindset, the rest of the information was unavailable, restricted and forbidden. It’s just in human nature to push the limits and try to fracture anything beyond its reach. Thus people there were thrilled to reach into the forbidden zone to find out why the government is hiding so much information. They read more, since TV at that time didn’t have 300 + channels, they saw more concerts and went to museums.

 

Now we have so much entertainment, free access to any information, an ability to criticize the government, advanced technology to deliver anything we want across the planet right to our door without leaving the chair. There is no thrill, there is no challenge, no real obstacles to overcome. So in the end people don’t invest much time into learning what might offer them that window to the exciting and forbidden world.

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You know Azatyush, I was thinking the same thing a while ago. However, I do believe it’s not only in the Former Union, it’s pretty much everywhere else except for the US. Many of the brilliant minds are either immigrants or children of immigrants. I think partially it’s because here we are surrounded by the abundance of information and a limitless access to all of the possible resources. In the Soviet Union, the main goal was geared towards programming people with a communist mindset, the rest of the information was unavailable, restricted and forbidden. It’s just in human nature to push the limits and try to fracture anything beyond its reach. Thus people there were thrilled to reach into the forbidden zone to find out why the government is hiding so much information. They read more, since TV at that time didn’t have 300 + channels, they saw more concerts and went to museums. 

 

Now we have so much entertainment, free access to any information, an ability to criticize the government, advanced technology to deliver anything we want across the planet right to our door without leaving the chair. There is no thrill, there is no challenge, no real obstacles to overcome. So in the end people don’t invest much time into learning what might offer them that window to the exciting and forbidden world.

Very well said. I wanted to say the same thing but could not find a way to express myself.

 

And also we should keep in mind that even if under other societies people are/were more cultured they are still very closed minded and non innovative. It's like they know all these facts but can't really draw any personal conclusions, opinions, philosophies (or at least not as much). Tradition, homogeneousness of society, and the lack of information flow gets in the way of innovative thinking.

 

So you are pretty much stuck just having memorized some facts with no personal interpretation.

Edited by shiner
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I agree with both of you in most part, but disagree in some aspects.

 

Many of the brilliant minds are either immigrants or children of immigrants

I completely disagree with this. Well kind of disagree... If you are talking about a brilliant mind who can invent an object or create a service for which there is instant demand, I disagree. I think there are MANY non immigrants who excel in a single dimensional way of thinking in the US and elsewhere. However if you are talking about a Brilliant mind in terms of a person who is a woman/man of the world, who is very well read and well educated and someone who knows about many subjects than I may agree.

 

So you are pretty much stuck just having memorized some facts with no personal interpretation.

 

This may be true for the average folk, but I think there were many who thought outside of the box. People who thought differently, people who invented even in conditions that were almost impossible to invent and these people had to put their interpretations on things to be so innovative.

 

With everything else I agree.

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As I’ve mentioned before, a mind under restricted conditions becomes more curious and driven to explore beneath the surface. And although in the Soviet Union you were fed Marxism and Leninism and had to buy a beautifully bounded compositions of Lenin on “how the agriculture is beneficial for the mental health of a devoted communist”, to get toilet-paper quality “The Old Man and the Sea,” the thrill of learning was persistent.

 

I do believe there is a difference between being practical and bright, and intelligent. Also could it be that rough conditions force people to look into their spiritual and creative side in depth? If your surroundings are not rich with resources you are most likely to think of a strategy to make the situation more bearable, thus enhancing your creativity. Here creativity is not necessary, since everything is easily provided. I honestly think there has to be a balance, but if I had to chose one side I would pick this one. The thought of waiting on line for 2 hours to get a scrawny Ethiopian chicken doesn’t entice me, strangely.

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I don't know how much classical music has to do with being cultured ... In the US, we have the focus in the basic 3-R's ... readin, ritin, and rithmetic. Those are required. The rest are purely motivation driven ... if a student is interested or motivated to dabble into those subjects, then the student has MANY opportunities. I think probably a lot more than anywhere else in the world. It's just that only the fundamental basics are required.

 

Once in higher education, the students are allowed to completely narrow their focus onto their respective chosen fields and essentially get by with a set of field-of-vision blockers (blinders) like those placed on horses pulling carriages. But again, the opportunities to expand into other areas is ALWAYS there. It's just left up to the person as opposed to being forced or strongly encouraged.

 

For example, I was required to take one ethics course (engineering ethics) and a couple of humanities and social science courses in order to satisfy my undergrad Computer Engineering degree requriements. I basically could have easily breeeezed through those classes without ever paying attention to anything and still passed. Fortunately, somehow for some strange reason I managed to absorb a few things along the way and can occasionally quote things from Plato and Kant for example :D

 

See I do have a regret there with not having paid attention to those classes and taken more. I KNEW they would be useful and help me expand my mind. I just was too lazy ... so this does kinda tie into Anileve's thread about regrets. Though I am very thankful to myself that I at least took a couple of Armenian classes in my last year at UCLA just for the heck of it and learned A LOT. B)

 

So Azatik, I think my take on it is that the opportunities are definitely there in the US ... what isn't there is the encouragement or the motivation to pursue other avenues for expanding one's mind as opposed to just focusing on a single domain and trying to master only that. But then again, the majority of highschool graduates can't even add -2 and +2 together. :(

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AZAT I know the answer, get your ass over to Armenia.

 

Just picture what people in the States would do if they didn't have 24 hour electricity for months, if not years. They would panic like mad and go insane.

 

Over here they survived, and although it was extremely difficult, they still enjoyed themselves and lived to remember the memories they created.

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Azat, my parents also often speak of their youth in the Soviet Union and the different culture they experienced compared with today's youth. My dad always says that in Soviet almost everyone read and was familiar with the classical literature and almost everyone listened to Classical music. He believes that the mass population can be guided towards really understanding and enjoying the Classical music, as was evident during his time.

 

Well, I don't think so. If people in Soviet, in Soviet Armenia, were really more "cultured" then why did the "Rabiz" singers emerge and gain so much popularity as soon as the Soviet collapsed? What happened to that "culture"? It's not only today's youth that listens to Tata and Aram but it is also Aram's generation that is enjoying "Rabiz". The only reason people in Soviet read more and attended to more Classical concerts and theater is because they didn't have any other choices. And Soviet only presented its citizens with these options because it wanted to show to the West how "cultured" Soviet's citizens were.

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Am I the only one who is starving for these kind of things or are others not able to find this as well as we all are under tremendous pressures of today’s lifestyles that we have chosen that it leaves us little time for anything else.

Azat, if you live in LA you needn't be starving for music and the arts. Did you know that Los Angeles is the only county in the US to have two Classical music radio stations? And there is also a great Jazz station. The two Classical radios are 1) 91.5 KUSC and 2) 105.1 KMOZART. And KJAZZ is 88.1. LA is home of the great Los Angeles Philharmonic, and there are plenty of other orchestras, i.e. Pasadena Symphony, American Youth Symphony (their concerts are free), etc. And of course the numerous museums in Los Angeles... So I don't really understand how people from Soviet say that the music and the arts and the culture doesn't thrive in the U.S. as much as it did in Soviet.

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Anoushik, While I agree with much of what you said there are points that I disagree with.

 

But first let me add that 95% of the time I listen to NPR and the 3 radio stations that I support with my donations are KPCC, KCRW and KUSC. So I am well aware of the classical scene in LA.

 

Let me also add that I after do go to concerts. They can be classical or Jazz or even some world music(non of the new stuff interests me). But at $50 to $125 a pop it is a luxury and not a common thing for me(a person who earns a good living) to do. In LA we have one of the BEST music halls in the world in terms of acoustics and guess what we have done to it? You are right, nothing. It has been closed rotting for 10 years because they could not get enough people to attend. Just in case anyone is wondering I am talking about the Ambassador Auditorium(http://www.ambassadorcampus.info/auditorium.html). And now some contractor wants to buy the place and turn the whole campus to a luxury condominiums. This is an Auditorium where legendry Karjan use to perform any time he came to LA because of the superior acoustics and he made even few recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic there. So the classical scene in LA is weak at best. That includes theater. and the good stuff that is available is too expansive. For instance the new Disney hall. I love the place, but again if I were a student there is no way I could afford to go to a single concert there. Yes they have tickets for 40 dollars but the good seats are in the hundreds.

 

In terms of Rabiz and classics being forced down to the people in some ways it is true, the Soviet regime has been dead for some 10-15 years now but I bet if you take a high school graduate from Moscow or Leningrad or even Yerevan and a collage graduate from LA or NY or DC most of the time(I said most) the kid from Yerevan will be more cultured.

 

Also to say that it was just forced is wrong. Your dad did not have to listen to classical radio or read Dostoyevsky or Pasternak or Tolstoy or (I can list MANY), but he did because it was the norm because he had passion for it. We here rather just watch Friends on TV.

 

But overall I agree with many of the points that you made.

 

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Sip, no question about it when it comes to the opportunities and the availability of the material and resources. We have it all here. But we(I for one) do not take advantage of it all. Can’t really even though I want to. Not enough time or personal resources to do it.

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Azat, that's great that you support KPCC, KUSC, and KCRW with your donations! I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions and assumed that Armenian people are unaware that these stations exist. :)

 

About college students not being able to afford to go to concerts: Yes, it's true. But students generally cannot afford much anything. Yes, going to concerts is a luxury, but it's not really so expensive if you compare to how much tickets cost to attend sport events, like basketball games. Classical musicians are people who need to earn a living and they do so by performing. I don't think $90 a concert is expensive compared with today's living standards and seeing how much money people waste on unimportant things. Yes, it is still a luxury but if people are interested they will still find some way to attend to concerts and to musical events.

Edited by anoushik
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...I don't think $90 a concert is expensive compared with today's living standards and seeing how much money people waste on unimportant things....

Will you adopt me? Pleasssseeeeee. :)

 

90 a pop plus those stupid charges from ticketmaster (arrrrgggg, don't get me going on ticketmaster) and a dinner and parking you're out 450 for an evening. Ouch.

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90 a pop plus those stupid charges from ticketmaster (arrrrgggg, don't get me going on ticketmaster) and a dinner and parking you're out 450 for an evening.  Ouch.

$90 ticket

$10 parking

$20 ticket master fee

 

Do the math, carry the one ... multiply by two ... :o That's a $200 dinner!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

Azat, can you adopt me? Pleeeeeeease? I usually only eat $10 worth at the buffet and I can even stay in the car while you're at the concert. :)

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intresting topic...

 

I think you are always beeing so judjmental when it comes to soviet. Everyone knows that in the soviet periods the culture was the most important part of the schooling! Not only in armenia but in uzbekistan in azerbajdjan so on...

They got some sort of a democratic goverment, they learned about culture, science, -education. A huge investment was made to teach those people living in the soviet union, who maybe not had a very huge knowleadge of the cultures" to learn. (why do you think so many azeri singers actually sing armenian songs, but in azeri, many armenian composers wrote songs in for the azeris during the soviet)

 

Yeah what happaned to the culture, when soviet collapsed? :huh: :P

It cleared way so the rabiz singers could find their way :angry:

 

I think that the best thing that is apart of todays indepence armenia prior to soviet, is that the stores acutally have something on the shelves for people to buy :D)

Edited by koko
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$90 ticket

$10 parking

$20 ticket master fee

 

Do the math, carry the one ... multiply by two ... :o That's a $200 dinner!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

Azat, can you adopt me? Pleeeeeeease? I usually only eat $10 worth at the buffet and I can even stay in the car while you're at the concert. :)

Sip jan, last time I took you out to dinner and even after few of them frozen margaritas you still did not look pretty enough to me so I am not going to take you out anymore. :D :D :D

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Actually Sip, Your body looked good to me, it was just your face that I had a problem with... Your mind I could care less about. :)

 

http://shakenblake1.homestead.com/files/fatty_dance2.gif

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