Sasun Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Armat is a theist, Sasun is a theist. And I do believe they accept evolution. That's right Domino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Gevo, the Bible is the mirror of the reader, it can say anything the believer want to believe. The important here is what you believe in. Belief is an individual thing, your truth is not necessarly the truth of another person, unless this truth is part of the few certainties that exist. You have a point there Domino, but I wouldn't say that the Bible could mean anything that people want to believe in. There are various interpretations around but it is not a mirror. Some things are very clear, some things are not easy to understand, hence different interpretations in the limits of a few different ways to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Gevo, really, it is not common at all that atheists hate God. Many atheists will not accept, for example, what the church says about God and what men have to do even though they don't believe in God and theoretically they shouldn't care. So is that hate or not? I don't think it is hate, it is just rejection. From my atheists years, as far as I can remember, I have been sometimes hateful of the religious stuff and the idea of a punishing God. However, most of the time I was just indifferent and not thinking about such matters at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Gevo, really, it is not common at all that atheists hate God. Many atheists will not accept, for example, what the church says about God and what men have to do even though they don't believe in God and theoretically they shouldn't care. So is that hate or not? I don't think it is hate, it is just rejection. From my atheists years, as far as I can remember, I have been sometimes hateful of the religious stuff and the idea of a punishing God. However, most of the time I was just indifferent and not thinking about such matters at all. And I'm sure if not already, as you'll grow older you'll discover much more and explore much farther into the unknown, this is exactly what I have been calling an evolution, spiritually or any other forms, life is an endless cycle of discovery. If there is a single one essential meaning to all that, that is to find harmony and tranquility, with open mind and willing to explore to the depths of which IT could be beneficial and be the light of the continuation of our very own existence, there is nothing more in this world which will give me a joy, to see according to some scriptures, Armageddon to be false and outdated, you might say I'm a dreamer, so be it, everything starts with a dream/hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 A good atheist hates the belief in God yet believes in something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 From my atheists years, as far as I can remember, I have been sometimes hateful of the religious stuff and the idea of a punishing God. However, most of the time I was just indifferent and not thinking about such matters at all. You used to be an atheist? And yet from your writings you seem to be very, very spiritual. I thought once a person realized that he was an atheist he would remain an atheist for the rest of his life. I feel that being an atheist for me (and everyone else, I thought) is the end of coming to a realization that there is no God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 A good atheist hates the belief in God yet believes in something else. How do you know what a good atheist believes in? As for me, I don't hate the belief in God; I hate what people do to each other for the belief in God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 You used to be an atheist? And yet from your writings you seem to be very, very spiritual. That's what makes Sasun special. He is now quite spiritual but not a blind religious fanatic that preaches God in every 3rd sentence. Although I sometimes disagree on certain issues with Sasun, I do have a lot of respect for his beliefs, especially since he never tries to force his ways on anyone. By the way Sasun, your god-hatin past is news to me as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Hey Sip, how much respect do you have for MY beliefs? Dont bother answering, I allready know. - about as much as I have for yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Let's just say I respect your taste in cars. My new neighbor that just moved in has a yellow Wrx ... it has fake STi stickers so first day you can imagine my disappointment when I figured out they were fake But he drives it like a mad man!!! He told me he does 4-wheel power slides when it snows all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 duq es inchqan azat jamanak uneq ??? cheq hognel vijeluts ??? hangstatseq eli vayyyyyyyyyyyyyy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 I have a very good friend who is evangelical (charismatic) Christian (and - as an aside - he professes that he has space for me and my family in his super deluxe bomb shelter for when the end times come!..lol ...and he and his wife - well they are alwasy praying for me...lol - for which I always thank them...anyway) - but I remember shortly after we had met - and I had confronted him and stated - "your a Christian - aren't you?" (and by that I meant a true/real Christian [thogh of course this is the crux of the matter isn;t it..just what is such...and who can agree?] - well what I meant is that I could see the Christian virtue and belief in his heart and in his actions (and he had never to that point stateted to me or around me that he was a believer)....he said yes - and so this of course started off a long (and in many ways continueing) conversation....where I recall one of the first things i said to him was that I really would have no problems with Christians...if it weren't for them being so caught up/serious in all this bible stuff...well he understood...but he was really caught up in such...yet, for the cvast part - I have no problems with him..and we became fast friends - respectful of one another (he always says that I remind hi of his older brother...an ex-hippie...and still non-believeing atheist).....anyway....yeah...oh and BTW - I have read the Bible (old & new) extensively...mutiple times (again gevo - certainly before you were ever born...I have been a Young Life Crusadewr [OK briefly...but still maintina some friends dfrom then...]...and I've also read many other religious texts...openly - with open mind..and they all fill me with wonder (adn sometimes dread)...no one can know all things - and yes it is important that we know of and apreciate as much as possible before we decide to reject or embrace...and we alwasy need to keep an open mind...and don't be so certain that because you believe certain things that you have necessarily got it right....and while I may sound as though I believe such (about my own beliefs...) - and yeah OK - I feel pretty confident in them...LOL....I still feel that I am essentially open (and more so then you might believe)...and much of the positions I take here are in response to the certitudes and inflexibility I see from some others....OK im sorry mods i have to say this either your friend doesnt knowCRAP about his faith.. or you are full of SHIT!!! cause if you knew what you were saying.. then your friend has figured he is not saved.. LMAO back to singing wheels onthe bus go round and round round, round and round etc... this song comes to mind from certain peoples' stupidity.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Ahem... The rock cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Ahem... The rock cycle. call me blind bt i didnt see it coming, it happend so fast, another one of the guys.. .. I dont get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Gevo, you don't have to get anything, and don't worry about anyone being offended from being called ignorant or anything else by you, they won't. You don't have to get anything - I'll make it easy for you - I mentioned the rock cycle at least once before on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Gevo, you don't have to get anything, and don't worry about anyone being offended from being called ignorant or anything else by you, they won't. You don't have to get anything - I'll make it easy for you - I mentioned the rock cycle at least once before on this thread. well gee that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.. thx.. im not worried one bit kurik jan i like this poem i made up.. ok maybe i didnt make this up but oh well.. lol I kicked the ball, my skirt flew up And I know what they saw. The girls all stared and blushed and laughed, The boys said, "Oo-la-la!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Let's just say I respect your taste in cars. My new neighbor that just moved in has a yellow Wrx ... it has fake STi stickers so first day you can imagine my disappointment when I figured out they were fake fake Sti stickers = small pen!s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 (edited) You used to be an atheist? And yet from your writings you seem to be very, very spiritual. I thought once a person realized that he was an atheist he would remain an atheist for the rest of his life. I feel that being an atheist for me (and everyone else, I thought) is the end of coming to a realization that there is no God. If this may help, I too used to consider myself as an atheist. Worse, ten years ago, I would systematically put down people who were trying to assert the existence of the soul. I recall I would almost ridiculize believers lacking analytical skills in my philosophy class. Now I feel punished whenever I see people arguing for materialism. Science may at best describe material phenomenons, that have been observed, through models (ie approximations of reality that are valid under certain conditions but are in no sense absolute truths). It may not explain anything, even less provide a basis for disproving the existence of the non-material. There seems to be a confusion between the how? and the why? question. Science may never answer the why? question. Already had this discussion btw with Sasun, Sip, Domino et al. http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...indpost&p=54572 Edited April 14, 2004 by axel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Actually most believers have gone through a phase of atheism. Just consider the spiritual evolution of people such as Dostoevsky or Solzhenitsyn... In fact, each one of the Karamazov brothers, Mitia, Ivan and Aliosha, portrays a period in the life of Dostoevsky, respectively, ignorance/intuition, "knowledge"/atheism, understanding/spirituality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 Actually most believers have gone through a phase of atheism. Just consider the spiritual evolution of people such as Dostoevsky or Solzhenitsyn... In fact, each one of the Karamazov brothers, Mitia, Ivan and Aliosha, portrays a period in the life of Dostoevsky, respectively, ignorance/intuition, "knowledge"/atheism, understanding/spirituality. and the "Idiot" as well-my fave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 http://www.swcp.com/~hswift/swc/Essays/Sheldrake.html I know i am asking a little too much, but it will be interesting that everyone here read this essay and say what he thinks of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 http://www.swcp.com/~hswift/swc/Essays/Sheldrake.html I know i am asking a little too much, but it will be interesting that everyone here read this essay and say what he thinks of. There is a way to incide at least one person to read that essay... and it is Armat. I will be quoting a part from it, and he will understand why I am saying this. "To see the meaning and importance of the last statement, consider the liar's paradox, the sentence "I am a liar". Notice that as the predicate of the sentence defines the subject, the subject of the sentence redefines the predicate; if I am a liar, then I am telling the truth, but then I am lying, and so on ad infinitum. This is called a tangled hierarchy because the causal efficacy does not lie entirely with either the subject or the predicate but instead fluctuates unendingly between them. But the real tangle of causal efficacy in the liar's paradox is not in the sentence I am a liar; it is in our consciousness, in our knowledge of the meta-language rules of the English language. Try the paradox with a foreigner; she will ask, "Why are you a liar?" failing to appreciate the tangle because the rules of meta-language are obscure to her. But once we know and abide by these meta-language rules, looking at the sentence from "inside," we cannot escape the tangle. When we identify with the sentence, we get caught: the sentence is self-referential, talking about itself. It has managed to separate itself from the rest of the world of discourse." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 im sorry mods i have to say this either your friend doesnt knowCRAP about his faith.. or you are full of SHIT!!! cause if you knew what you were saying.. then your friend has figured he is not saved.. LMAO back to singing wheels onthe bus go round and round round, round and round etc... this song comes to mind from certain peoples' stupidity.. I really have no idea why you might say this - except for the normally demonstrated ignorance on your part. And you certainly don't seem to at all understand either what I posted or why I might have posted such (though why should I be surprised?). But let me just add - on behalf of my good Christian friend (one of many BTW) - there can be no doubting his commitment or understanding of the gospels or such. This is not at all an issue. Several years ago (based on a vision/calling etc) he gave up an extremely lucrative job to help his church establish itself in another State - going off - with his then 6 children (he now has 8) to an uncertain future. He also leads a home (bible) study that has gotten so popular that it has branched off several times due to the hundreds of people who were showing up to his home. I have rarely ever met anyone more familiar with the scriptures and their meaning (and this includes various preachers and such). Nor have I rarely ever encountered folks so loving and full of charity (and as i have said - epitomizing Christain virtue) as he and his wife. For instance - for many years they ran a sort of halfway house (all at their own expense) for abused women/women who also chose to have their child versus abort etc..and helped these troubled women stand on their own two feet and helped them through their tough times...and this help extended to after they were established...amzing the level of effort (and love) and such that they have gone through helping these people - etc etc... anyway - I fail to see at all where your negative comments came from concerning my friend - who I assure you epitiomizes the very best in Christian values and teachings (but yeah Ok is perhaps a bit of a fanatic in my eyes...but OK - they serve their purpose I guess..and there is no question that he is doing good...) ...and there can be no denying his (great) knowledge of and his living out of is faith...and in that he has always had my highest respect and admiration....(but boy do we disagree on such a great many things...lol....but neither is threatened with the other or the other's views - and our disagrements have never come in the way of our friendship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 That's what makes Sasun special. He is now quite spiritual but not a blind religious fanatic that preaches God in every 3rd sentence. Although I sometimes disagree on certain issues with Sasun, I do have a lot of respect for his beliefs, especially since he never tries to force his ways on anyone. By the way Sasun, your god-hatin past is news to me as well! Thank you Sip for your understanding BTW, some things that I have done (not many) being a god-hater and religious people-hater were pretty bad which I very much regretted later and I am glad I didn't do some of the terrible things I had thought of doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 You used to be an atheist? And yet from your writings you seem to be very, very spiritual. I thought once a person realized that he was an atheist he would remain an atheist for the rest of his life. I feel that being an atheist for me (and everyone else, I thought) is the end of coming to a realization that there is no God. Yes Anoushik, I was an atheist, then agnostic, then believer. But when I was atheist the reason was that I was brainwashed to be atheist although there was never a heavy brainwashing. Just in a school in the Soviet Union pupils were taught that God doesn't exist and the church is a stupid thing, etc. I didn't have much choice than a one dimensional path of the Soviet type lies which among other things includes materialism and total non-spirituality. As I grew up I became more independent in thinking and for some time was convinced of atheism based on my "knowledge" which was in fact ignorance. As I matured more and was educated more (was a student in physics) I became agnostic as far as the existence of God is concerned, and was sort of spiritual in some ways and superstitious in other ways. Then I became a believer in God. But I tell you, true spirituality is an area that once you are in your understanding will only grow and grow without bounds. It is like a newly discovered very pleasant world that has no limits. You can never realize enough or too much. The more you go the more there is to see. And it is very clear to me that intellectually one cannot approach to this new world. So, my experience is the opposite - once you are spiritual you will never be atheist. P.S. When I say "true" spirituality I mean not to confuse with superstitions which I have experinced and thought it was spirituality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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