axel Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 (edited) At the root of these contradictions might be the fact that in spite of being half-Armenian you are against mixed-marriages I never said I was against mixed-marriages. But I am not particularly in favor of them either. You seem not to be able to cope with nuances. That said, there is no contradiction in being half-armenian and against mixed marriages. If you do see one, then you are the one deprived of the "most elementary logic". I am actually in a much better position to criticize the potential harm of mixed marriages than you are, aren't I? As for the second paragraph contradicting the first... ??? you mean "emotional" and "reason"? Well, one can "reason" under the empire of emotion... That is illustrated by your post being completely off-topic yet appearing to be structured. you do not have the knowledge to understand what I am saying What knowledge? You equate me with some kind of naive rousseauist adventurer, "dashnakoid", admirative reader of Raffi's Khent... And then you bring in ASALA in the picture. That takes the cake! You're the one with narrow perspectives. Edited April 16, 2004 by axel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 "I am half-armenian, half-french (not a strong partisan of mixed marriages though)." Now you may go and play with your toys. So long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mx5 Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Lebanon is a country that has no national income or production at all and it survives mostly due to its diaspora sending money back home,lebanons survival during the civil war was due to great effort made by its diaspora. personaly i have never been in an argument with another Armenian as to wether the diaspora will disapear,because never found one who realy thought that, until I came to this forum. TB,where did you come from to America ,from china or what ,if not you your predecesors came from Armenia for sure ,many thousands or hundred thousand has disapeared but still there is a diaspora,or you will give me one of your intuitive statistics here!!. what is your understanding of diaspora ,you and me and The Pirate and Boghos? ,no we will all be gone fresh people will come to take our place,could be our sons or from Armenia itself,there is no need to feel awkward for missing this point... I frankly exhausted my argument here,cause most of the answers are irrational ,at least for my limited brain.!!!!! good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Now you may go and play with your toys. I was considering doing so. This last post of yours demonstrates beyond doubt that you are far too brilliant an intellectual for me to challenge. (I apologize to everyone for disrupting this thread with my childish comments and behaviour) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 good luck Same to you. You definitely need a lot of it to make up for some deficiencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 The numbers are somewhat misleading. Looking at the entire diaspora population is not a correct way of evaluating demographical dynamics and tendencies. One should only look at the reduced subset of self-conscious Armenians instead of considering all people of armenian descent. The former are the one who will sustain the armenian identity in the long run. While we may see decline and assimilation eating away "peripheral" armenians, there is no fatality for the core group not to grow. It is just a question of faith, and will. Dear Axel, Unlike Boghos, I have no animosity toward you. However, I have to say that you seem to have missed the point I was making. Or rather, you have this "hard core" + "soft peripheral" idea of the diaspora, apparently theorizing that, once assimilation eats away at the soft part, it will stop with a thud when it bumps against the "hard core". That does not reflect reality. Even the most fervent preservationist family will have kids that simply will not accept the burden of preservation, or the message will be garbled because the "message", "the point" of it all will be garbled in transmission from one generation to the next. It would happen with a significant and regualr frequency, because people are imperfect. More often then you would like, you will have a descendant that by his/her nature will not care as much about the whole thing, and that will be the end of that branch. Individuals vary, but statistics are merciless. Unless the statistics themselves are moved by a "sea change". I support individual effort. I just choose not to suspend my reason. I have no problem with a "losing battle", if only for boosting the chance to catch the "sea change". On to a more practical matter, and related to what I have been saying. For "individual effort" to succeed, the preservationist not only needs to have a convincing, compelling message to his/her offspring, but needs to have at least three kids to beat the odds. Four or five would be better. If you make that a part of "preservationist ethos", and make the larger ethos compelling enough to withstand the relentless attack by the host culture, then you have a chance of having a "hard-core" that will resist disappearance without fresh additions. As for the desperate and deeply flawed arguments of mx5, I already expressed my disgust at the idea of viewing Armenia as a source for replenishing a leaking diaspora. I prefer passionate faith and heroic willpower to dry rationalistic pessimism. I am no fan of "rationalistic pessimism" either. And "pessimism" is not rational, it is an emotion. Whether you are a fan of rationality or not, the reality as it exists now will not care about what you, as an individual prefer. And to change reality itself takes more than a random convergence of individual efforts. It needs a "sea change", a "coherent driving force". What I lament is the apparent lack of the latter. While I gave up hope on mx5, I hope you will read what I have been saying more carefully and not interpret my view of diasporan demise as a gleeful anticipation but a sad inevitability whose existence I chose to accept and fight (in my small way) at the same time. I will not change my attutude towards asimilation (I oppose it vigorously) regardless of whether it is futile to fight it or not. But I will change my "prediction" only when facts on the ground change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 (edited) Ironically it seems that it is those that you expect the least to be extrem patriots that are the most. Half Armenians, Armenians that don't know the language or etc... I observed the same among the Turks, where those outside of Turkey were the large majority of times more "nationalist" than those living inside. Edited April 16, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Wow, this thread is full of so much trash. What Armenianpirate said is true from my observations in the United States, and what he is saying is not being an Armenian only racist or have anything to do with the Aryan nation or whatever other trash people are using to label him. I know this guy is now close to his 50s in age, who was born in Poland, he came to the United States, I believe in the 1970s. He was married once in the States to another Pole and had a son with that fellow Pole. He got married again, this time to a non-Polish American and had two daughters with this wife. Which kids of his do you think speak Polish? Only the one son he had from his marriage with the other Pole, speaks Polish. Infact this son went to Germany as an exchange student for one year and speaks German as well because his exchange family did not know English so he had to learn German to communicate and manage with this family. If this German family knew English he would probably never have learned German, because he would have taken the easy way out and spoken to them in the language he knew, English, instead of endeavoring to learn German. My mom was born in Greece, so was my dad. Me and my brother were raised alot by maternal grandparents who never learnt much English. Do you think I speak Greek? The question is more how could I not learn it being raised by parents who spoke it and grandparents who spoke it. My mom has a brother who married a non-Greek. This uncle of mine has had three kids none of which speak Greek. My mom has this boyfriend who was married twice. This boyfriend was born in Greece. He had one marriage with a non-Greek and three kids from this marriage. He married another women in Greece and brought here to the United States and had a kid with her. Only the one kid from his marriage with another Greek speaks Greek. You do not really teach children languages, you need people around them speaking a language on a regular basis and they will learn it automatically. There is nothing fascist or extremist about this, for diasporas intermarriage is cultural assimilation and extinction. If a non-Armenian marries an Armenian it is highly unlikely a child of such a marriage will ever learn Armenian, unless it is raised by the grandparents who speak Aremnian to the child enough for it to learn. If you want your kids to learn Armenian, you have to marry someone who knows Armenian and then speak Armenian heavily in the househould and the kid will just learn it, not teaching involved. If you think you can marry a non-Armenian and then teach your kid Armenian through a church program or something you are probably being unrealistic. Inter-marriage is cultural assimilation. (This paragraph is for people who think languages can be learned in schools.) In highschool I took Spanish courses for three years and I do not speak any Spanish, because I never wanted to really put the effort to learn. I just knew that colleges want you to take foreign language courses in High School so I took them, not to learn a language but to have something to look nice on some transcript. Besides at such an age it is already much more difficult to learn a language. When you are born you know zero languages, but young people have a talent for learning languages, they never need to look up definitions, you just speak a language enough and they will mimic you and pick it up. I could of learned Spanish if I immersed myself in it(since so many Spanish people living in my town getting practice would not be hard). I doubt many of you know very many half-Armenians, half-anything(s) that speak one of their immigrant parent's languages. I know I do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 (edited) I doubt many of you know very many half-Armenians, half-anything(s) that speak one of their immigrant parent's languages. I know I do not. Every half Armenians I know in reall life speak Armenian. Edited April 17, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 That is a joke, right? Because if only one parent is Armenian speaking they cannot really be immersed enough to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 That is a joke, right? Because if only one parent is Armenian speaking they cannot really be immersed enough to learn. No, I am not joking. Probably what I have observed does not represent the rest of the mixed Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 So how do they learn the language? Do you know? Did Armenian speaking grandparents watch them alot or do they learn through a Church School? This lady I know was born in Italy and married another Italian here in the States and both of her kids know Italian. But even they according to her, are speaking Italian worse now than when they were younger. Same with my uncle he probably speaks worse Greek now then when he came to the United States and forgot how to read and write, because he only uses Greek to speak to his mother. Every example around me, only non-mixed couples transmit their language within the diaspora. It is exceptional for mixed diasporic families to transmit a language from what I see around me, and I cannot think of one real life example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 I don't really have much time for in depth input - but I do know several 'half' armenians that speak Amenian. Actually, in most cases they read and write better than I - a full-blooded, if you will, Armenian. I consider them as Armenian as I am, eventhough their genes have been 'tainted' (in the words of some on this thread). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 (edited) Dear TB, I understand your reasoning pretty well. Our positions are in fact closer than you may think. Note that, in my view, the core is not necessarily made of what you call "preservationists". While some degree of "preservationism" is needed (esp. at this point!) we do agree it is not a sufficient basis to serve as a definitive solution. A driving force or rather a common goal is necessary for energies to converge, in the long run. And Culture is a living entity, not a corpse to be mummified. Moreover, I do agree that the odds are against us, that is why I used the term "heroism" for heroism consists precisely in going against the odds. That said, the single thing that dominates this discussion is TAP's faith which is demonstrated by his lengthy selfless posts. And this is what I will retain from this thread. It would be wrong to discard this as simply belonging to the "emotional" sphere. There may be flaws in his actual argumentation, there may be some misconceptions... but these are of secondary importance. PS: The following text was written at the turn of the twentieth century. It is somehow related to this idea of "driving force" you mention. I figured it might be of interest to you. I give a litteral (and approximate) translation. Ce genre de société se reconnaît à ce caractère qu'on n'y parle jamais de société. La vérité, l'esprit, la vie nouvelle, voilà ce qu'on voit et cherche - l'union est donnée par surcroît - et le plus sûr indice de sa décadence est qu'on en sente le besoin et trahisse le souci : comme ces guerriers barbares qui s'enchaînaient l'un à l'autre quand ils sentaient faiblir leur courage. Dans toute société supérieure et vivante, le corps social apparaît dominé, vivifié, par une réalité souveraine, objet commun et terme de convergence des esprits et des volontés. La foi en cette réalité est son âme et son lieu. Il ne dure et grandit que par elle, dans la mesure où tous communient en elle, où chacun lui soumet sa logique, son égoïsme, son bien-être immédiat. Mais enfin cette réalité n'est pas donnée, saisie immédiatement. Elle est pressentie par l'intuition intérieure et révélée par les oeuvres qui l'incarnent et l'expriment : moyens imparfaits l'un et l'autre. Le terme de convergence est au delà de toute intuition, de toute réalisation actuelle. La foi est connaissance, - elle est aussi confiance. Dirons-nous que c'est un symbole social, - qu'il n'y a plus rien d'autre, à ce terme, que l'union même ? - que le dernier secret de la vérité est son mensonge, de la réalité, son néant ? - C'est là le fond de la sociologie nouvelle, qui est un nihilisme métaphysique. Nous ne discuterons pas ici ; peut-être n'est-ce pas possible. L'idéalisme, de Kant à M. Durkheim, distingue la fonction sociale de la foi et sa valeur réelle, et prétend conserver l'une en niant l'autre. Vue juste ? je ne sais. Calcul faux, certes. Ces sages trop pressés tuent la poule aux oeufs d'or. Le jour où la foi est convaincue d'illusion, peu importe qu'on rende ou ne rende pas hommage à sa vertu sociale : elle meurt, et le corps social, privé de sa sève, sèche sur pied. Symbole, soit : ce symbole-là fonde sa réalité. Otez l'illusion de vérité, - la réalité d'union disparaît. Il se peut que l'esprit humain, dans son oeuvre la plus haute, l'édification de la société, poursuive un fantôme : il est nécessaire qu'il l'ignore. S'il est désabusé, il se détournera de son effort, de la vie même, comme don Quichotte mourant. "This kind of society may be recognized by this trait that one never mentions society. Truth, spirit, life, this is what we see and search - union is given as bonus - and the most certain sign of its decadence is that one feels and betrays the need for it : like those barbaric warriors who enchained themselves with one another when they felt their courage weakening. In every living and superior society, the social body appears dominated, vitalized, by a sovereign reality, a common goal where all the spirits and wills converge. Faith in this reality is its soul and place. Society endures and grows through faith only, while all commune with it and each subjects his logic, ego and immediate comfort to it. But this reality is not given or immediatley grasped. It is felt by the interior intuition and revealed through the works by which it is embodied and expressed, both of them imperfect means. The term of convergence is beyond any intuition or actual implementation. Faith is cognition, it is also confidence. Shall we say it is a mere social symbol, that there is nothing more to it than union itself, that the secret of this truth is its lie, of this reality, its void ? Such is the tenet of the new sociology which amounts to metaphysical nihilism. We will not discuss this here, maybe is it not possible. Idealism, from Kant to Durkheim, distinguishes between the social role of faith and its actual value, and pretends that it may keep the first while negating the other. I do not know whether the view is right but the calculation is definitely wrong. The day faith is convicted of illusion, whatever praise one may give to its social utility, it dies, and the social body, deprived of its sap, dries out on its soil. It may be a symbol but this symbol serves as a foundation for its reality. Take off the illusion of truth _ the reality of union disappears. It might be that the human spirit, in its greater work, edification of society, pursue a ghost: It is necessary that it ignore it. For if it is disabused, it will shy away from its effort, from life itself, as dying Don Quixotte." Edited April 17, 2004 by axel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 (edited) I doubt many of you know very many half-Armenians, half-anything(s) that speak one of their immigrant parent's languages. I know I do not. I know as much "half-breed"armenians as them who has both parents of armenian heritage. And i see no difference. Someone who has two parents can speak more badly then someone who just has one armenian parent. It all has to do with the parents prioroties, and weither or not they want to keep the armenian heritage alive through there children. Even I who is born in another country, and i do not boast that i speak good armenian, but when i went to armenia, i spoke even better than most of the people there...(they have started to use a lof of russian words and many slang words like -karas, ara, xi,.. wich i find dreadful ) My own cousin is half-armenian, and if I fínd out that he stopped speaking the language, and forgets it ......hell will break loose! And my other cousins have both parents and they all, half or full armenain, speak equally well. Edited April 18, 2004 by koko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArmenianPirate Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 You are forgetting that the intellectual actually thinks about what the best action is to be taken by your heroic 'action taker'. He tells, and the other does. Now that is a VERY frightening thought Gurgen. And in fact it is EXACTLY what I have been trying to bring to light to everyone here as well as tie it into how it affects us as Armenians. Just re-read that sentence, it’s simply a horrific idea. “One tells, and the other does”. The role of the “teller” in this day and age has been seized by the media elitists and their tool is Pop-Culture. The “action takers” are the general populace, BUT, the action promoted is not any action at all toward any individualized cultural progression, but rather LACK OF ACTION is promoted. This is a simple but VERY effective way of completely tearing asunder cultural distinctions such as being Armenian, Chinese, French, etc, for the sake of establishing mental, cultural, and social dominance over us all. However, it’s done SO subtly that even those that claim to be “intellectuals” are fooled into believing that they are above the manipulations of these elitists. The elitists cater to the egos of these supposed intellectuals in order to socially pacify them into thinking that there exists no conscious effort to blur the lines of culture, lineage, and heritage as a means to further the agendas of the elitists and their own respective cultures. These same elitists start their cycle of destruction with the cultures that statistically are most vulnerable, that is, those cultures who’s people are of small numbers globally, such as us Armenians. Our Armenian youth today is falsely led to believe that in order for them to enjoy the fruits of Pop-Culture and just do what youth does, be wild and free, they must sacrifice their own culture/lineage/heritage as Armenians. Thus Armenian youth are essentially led to believe that they cannot be part of the Pop-Culture of today while simultaneously also holding on to their rich traditions, lineage, culture, and heritage as Armenians, THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE! I do not need a mathematical model or theory to “prove” this to anyone, I AM the living and breathing proof that this IS possible! Among my circle of colleagues, those of us that are Hye do this every day, we easily have been able to be as “American” as can be while at the same time being as “Armenian” as we would like to be without any grandiose “struggle” against a non-existent pressure that supposedly will inevitable force us into integration permanently. We are quintessential professionals, but we remember that we are Hye professionals within an American system, and we also remember that we can continue to be such professionals while maintaining our heritage, culture, and lineage. And WHY shouldn’t we think this way? The Jews, Asians, African-Americans, Italians, etc, etc, think like this, not only that they push to proliferate their cultural ideals on others. Jews in fact have perfected this down to a science because they have the advantage of having Judaism represent a religion as well as the lineage of Israelites, so what do they do when they marry? They MAKE their husband/wife CONVERT to Judaism and TAKE classes! It’s simply a brilliant tactic to ensure at the very least statistical growth is achieved, but this tactic comes at the price of them losing their ISRAELITE lineage, and that is why Jews in Israel do not regard Jew converts or even mixed Jews as true Israelites and children of Israel. Now I’m not saying that persecuting mixes is the right thing to do, but it is a very clear and concise example of how other cultures are looking after themselves first and not buying into all this “globalization”, “inevitable assimilation”, or “one human race” nonsense the way some folks preach on these boards So why should I or any other Armenian man or woman simply settle for “assimilation” or “integration” or “joining the human race” when I have SUCH a great, rich, and wonderful heritage/lineage that I can stick with and do my best to preserve? And the answer behind that question is that only those individuals that simply desire to be careless about Armenian lineage preservation but deep down feel a guilt in doing so will truly want to opt for “integration”, and to save face, they pretend to know concrete “variables” and present oversimplified mathematical models to say “look no matter what we do, we’ll integrate as Diasporans”. Better yet, they won’t even try and rely on false logic to appease their own guilt, they’ll blatantly say integration and Diasporan death is “inevitable”. The key words here are “as Armenian as we would LIKE to be”, and maybe folks like Boghos, TB, or those that feel the way they do simply don’t like to be Hye or it’s just not important enough for them on a personal level, and that’s fine, it’s their decision. However, when they do not want to take that plunge by themselves and preach bleak ideas of inevitability or oversimplify population dynamics to a couple variables and talk of asymptotic curves reaching zero, that’s when their actions hurt my own and many other Armenians’ efforts to preserve/proliferate our lineage, culture, and heritage, which is a VERY realistic and achievable task to perform from now until the end of time, regardless of whether I’m living in United States or on Mars. And who is most vulnerable in this invisible domination of the mind that the media performs? The answer is simple, if we assume that all cultures are susceptible on a roughly equal level given a certain standard deviation from that level of susceptibility, then those cultures that are statistically the largest in population will have the best chance of surviving the media elitist’s Pop-Culture onslaught. If 100 million Chinamen migrated out of China and every single one of them inter-married, forgot their language, history, heritage, etc, they would STILL have roughly 1.4 Billion other members to rely on to continue their traditions, lineage, and heritage into the future. But we as Armenians simply CANNOT afford such losses if we truly desire to preserve our culture, heritage, and lineage. That is why it is SO very CRITICAL for the individual Armenian to elevate his/her level of awareness of the world around him/her beyond that of someone of another culture/lineage/heritage that statistically has more members to “lose” so to speak. Armenians must also elevate their sense of culture/lineage admiration, appreciation, and preservation beyond those of the members of other cultures/lineages; NOT because we think “we’re better” but because in the statistically game of losing members to globalization, if we’re to survive as Armenians, we cannot suffer as many losses as Chinamen that make up 1/5 of the world population or any other statistically larger culture for that matter. Now, does that mean that an Armenian may have to be just a bit ethnocentric to achieve this? Perhaps, in fact, most likely ethnocentrism will be crucial, because by definition, to be “ethnocentric”, is to love your own culture/lineage more than those of others, and if that’s the case, SO BE IT! But here in lies the manipulation of Pop-Culture and the media elites. You see Gurgen, these elitists USE Pop-Culture media to implant the idea of “ethnocentrism” being the equivalent of “racism”, “prejudice”, or even “hate”. And this SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE, an Armenian can certainly be ethnocentric by having a deep admiration/passion for his own culture and lineage while simultaneously having a profound respect for other cultures as simply being different as well as unique in their own right. But the media and those groups in power like to tie a VERY negative co-notation to the idea of being ethnocentric through Pop-Culture promotions of “we’re all one happy human race”, “cultural distinction prevents us from progressing together as human beings”, “lineage distinction creates conflict”, etc, etc. YET these very groups in power, whoever they may be, associate themselves with their own culture in such a fanatical manner that as an observer it becomes VERY CLEAR that they do not buy into ANY of the ideas of “one human race” or “all lineages are one” which they so very tirelessly preach to the masses. They simply preach those ideas through mass media in order to dilute the heritage, lineage, traditions, and culture of other groups of people, such as us Armenians, in order to assimilate more of the world’s resources, education, positions of power, and homeland stability for their own respective lineages and culture. ALL of you need to realize this fact, yes it is an ugly truth to stare at, it also disheartens the soul at times, but it’s the truth folks, and until we truly live in a globally Utopia like society, we as Armenians cannot let up the preservation of our culture, our heritage, our lineage, and our traditions. In fact, it is IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER that as one of the older lineages on the world stage, we pose the largest threat to these Elitists that use the media for control and manipulation. This is because they know we have developed a very high level of resilience toward anything that threatens our heritage/culture/lineage and that most of us have a deep passion for our heritage/culture/lineage that has endured for more than 3000 years and WILL continue to endure. If everyone would just 'take action without thinking it through, there would be not much world, would there? Intellectuals may never take any action towards getting goals achieved by your standard (though this is certainly false), they are the ones who come up with the goals in the first place. I should have elaborated more on the definitions of “intellectual” and “Action taker” to prevent this misinterpretation. “Intellectuals” are not incapable of action and “Action takers” are not incapable of intellectual thought, do not make the mistake of believing that stereotype, I should have elaborated more so that the context of the words would not be taken so literally, so here goes. . . . The Armenian “intellectuals” that I was making reference to are of a distinct type, I should not have generalized, for that, I apologize to everyone here. So I’ll rephrase that group as “Psuedo-Intellectuals”. These TYPES of intellectuals certainly have a high degree of mental capacity and intelligence. However, they lack any fortitude, desire, dedication, or determination to actually do ANYTHING that would be culturally productive for Armenians. In fact, most of the time they are spineless cowards with very low self-esteem, but they do carry a high level of mental prowess. And they use this prowess to analyze the problems Armenians face, to tear down other people’s lesser analytical results for self-gratification, and to provide all types of elaborate and wonderfully complex solutions to our people’s social problems as means to announce “I’m a smart Armenian”. BUT, at the essence of ANY solution, is the IMPLENTATION of that solution through ACTION. And furthermore, only the individual that gave birth to an idea or solution can truly implement it best as an action, because he/she has the best fundamental understanding of what needs to be done in order to resolve a situation via the solution he/she has come up with, after all, there is no better person to take the steps of a solution to particular problem than the person that thought of the solution in the first place! Sadly, the human ego is a very intoxicating aspect of the Armenian psyche and of the human psyche in general. And because of ego, many intellectuals fall prey to leading a life of INACTION. They just talk and talk, or write a book, or take on the mantle of the “tortured poet” through heartfelt poetry, and while all these things may contain great many ways of helping us as Armenians, nearly ALL of these Pseudo-Intellectuals consciously REFUSE to take any sort of risk, role of leadership, or take a chance in leading others toward positive cultural progression through their ideas AS WELL AS their ACTIONS/IMPLENTATIONS of those ideas. Instead, they opt to feed their already enormous ego by building up a better and more refined self-image of “the intellectual, or “the smart poster”, or “the articulate poet” at a gathering, party, or social event. And this type of behavior sees no exception on these boards either. There are folks here that post in a very analytical and elaborate manner with fancy screen names, and they LOVE coming off as “the intellectual” bunch, but when they put the keyboard down and go about their daily lives, being Armenian or preserving Armenian culture/heritage/lineage is the furthest thing from their mind, and Pop-Culture dominates them despite all the “intelligence” they claim to have on these boards. And I’ve witnessed this so many times in different places. I’ve sat down at a table while out with others, and one or two of these Pseudo-Intellectuals will start doing the “hey look at me I’m smart and articulate, I know lots about Armenianism and I can analyze every detail of our struggles” sales pitch to the rest of the Hyes at that table, then some odar will come along and say something derogatory towards Armenians, and these very same “analytical” Hyes that are so “logically inclined” and such great “intellectuals” will just sit there with their tails between their legs. They can talk a great philosophical game so to speak with respect to our culture and how we should go about keeping it strong, but when it’s actually their turn to do some of the things they preach, they become too busy being “Americanized”, or “European”, or “too busy with life”, or any number of ridiculous excuses for not taking action in order to help their Armenian culture/heritage/lineage stay strong. The reason Pseudo-Intellectuals behave like this is because as brilliant as their ideas may be about how Armenians can succeed, their motivation for giving birth to those ideas does not stem from a desire to truly help their fellow Hyes or to preserve our beautiful culture/lineage. Instead, their motivation stems from the egotistical notion of creating an image of “the intellectual” within their Hye community/circle of friends, in a grandiose attempt to pathetically show-off that they are “smart” or of “high intellectual capacity” or “articulate”. And because of these notions, I do not like the idea of being classified as an “intellectual” because some intellectuals, NOT ALL, but some are in fact Pseudo-Intellectuals that do a good job of pretending they have sincerity toward their Armenian lineage, but their deception comes through EVERY time it’s time to put their words into action, because all they do is stay seated where they are, while the odar says derogatory things about Armenians. Only those Intellectuals that CHOOSE to also be ACTION TAKERS, will quickly and EFFECTIVELY put the odar in his/her place for having assaulted a fellow Armenian, whether it be verbally, mentally, or even physically; it all depends on the situation. But at the VERY least, an intellectual that is also an ACTION TAKER has the courage to DO SOMETHING about the situation around him/her and within his/her Hye community. And The Armenian Pirate will always follow and respect those that are courageous, action takers, while maintaining their intellectuality. Mere Pseudo-Intellectual words and idle arrogant socialite chatter doesn’t cut it for me as “Armenian awareness” or “Armenian cultural/heritage/lineage preservation”. ALL OF YOU here need to always keep in mind that as an individual, you need to give birth to an idea then carry it out YOURSELF, not expect SOMEONE ELSE to do it for you, especially someone of another lineage, culture, or heritage. Just one question (I apologize for not having read everything, although I did try to gloss, so forgive me if this has already been discussed here -- in that case, give me a link please): do you see a difference between identity and culture? Or are they both the same? First off, I’d like to thank you for not jumping to conclusions about what I have written with personal attacks. Your approach is the correct one, that is, you’ve decided to ask a bit more before making a final personal analysis about what’s been said here by me, I commend you Nairi. Now with reference to your question, I certainly do see a difference in identity and culture, there is a definite distinction between the two. However, that does not necessarily mean that they are not somehow partially interconnected. I believe that at the core of every person, there exist two sub-sets of identity. One part of a person’s identity, the more superficial one, stems from his/her immediate social surroundings, the social trends that they are into, and the society that they live in. For example, I myself have my immediate social structure of Hye and non-Hye friends which I partly identify with because they exist within the same framework of “trends” that exist in the United States today. And just like all of you, I indulge in those trends, and culturally I dabble in what’s known as “Popular” culture of today. I also as a professional realize that in order to make progress in my personal finances and social life, I must to a certain extent abide by the societal structure that exist today in the United States, and I do exactly that every day and I am successful because of it. But the MOST IMPORTANT realization I can make about this first part of my identity is that the social trends, pop-culture influences, as well societal hierarchies that help constitute this first part of my identity change every 10 years or so and as I indulge in these changes, this superficial portion of my identity will also change. Thus I cannot consider it the “more significant” aspect of my identity or go as far as saying it makes up my identity as a whole, that would be foolish at the very least. Today’s pop-culture focuses around African-Americans with rap music, movies, their economic struggles, and their civil struggles because it makes record companies and movie studios money, it’s a sad fact but it’s true. So why wouldn’t these companies want to assimilate AS MANY people as possible into Pop-culture by blurring the distinction of ACTUAL cultures such as Armenianism? After all, the more people they convince that Pop-culture is their ACTUAL culture, the more money they make! I might pop open a CD and listen to some rap, but the way some Armenian folks ACTUALLY adapt the struggles described in rap music as their own is ridiculous. I have no idea what it’s like to be a black man in the ghettos of Compton, no Armenian does because they are not black, period. Just like the way a black man will never understand why I so relentlessly have chosen to protect and preserve my lineage, heritage, and Armenian culture. So why the hell would I tip my hat sideways, wear a jersey, and pretend that I somehow am connected to that black man’s struggle? I’ll tell you why, because it’s “what’s hot” in pop-culture right now, just like the way putting on a leather jacket with long head banger hair and doing coke was 20 years ago in the 80s. Yes, I’ll dabble in pop-culture for the sake of “keeping up with the trends” and having some fun, but I will NEVER betray my own Armenian identity by giving it up and replacing it with whatever Pop-culture puts on my social plate. Think about this everyone. The second, more prominent, part of a person’s “identity” is composed of his lineage, heritage, and his culture. And we as Hyes, do have a distinct identity that extends itself to the way we behave, the resiliency we have, the traditions we uphold, and these things are VERY distinct and VERY different from those of a Frenchman, an Asian, an African American, etc, etc. and if hybridized through globalization, interbreeding, intermarriage, or “the one human race” philosophy, then part of our deep rooted personal identity is lost. And what’s worse is that the new hybrid lineage, say between a Hye and an Asian, is NOT ENOUGH of either one of these cultures to be identifiable as ANYTHING that can be classified. And some might say, “well what’s so bad about that”? And in fact, nothing would be really bad about that IF we lived in a world in which other cultures are not gunning to gain the high ground on the world stage and to put themselves at the top. But we obviously do not live in such a world, we are human beings, that much is true, but 99% of the world does not yet have the ultra high level of “humanitarian” mentality that the elites would have you believe. Essentially, it’s pretty damn cutthroat still out in the world folks, and Hyes need to stick together and preserve their cultural identity, their language, their heritage, and their lineage so that we can retain ourselves as a classified group of people; otherwise what will happen is that those cultures that DO preserve themselves and stay classified as “something” will lay claim to our rights, our homeland, and the restitutions that are owed to us for the atrocities that have been committed against us. To put it bluntly, in today’s world, no one gives a $hit about culturally hybridized individuals, every lineage/culture/heritage is out to gain benefits for its OWN people, this much is evident by just looking around yourself folks. The Asians are extreme isolationists, they do not even consider odars their equals, the Jews do their best to provide Isrealite/Israelite marriages for their children and if an odar comes into the family he/she HAS to convert to Judaism as a religion so that he can at least be “a Jew” through his religious faith. Us Armenians certainly don’t have the luxury of “converting” an odar into an Armenian because being Armenian is a matter lineage/heritage not a matter of religious faith; your parents are either of Hye decent or they are not, period. Everyone here needs to look around and see how much other cultures/lineages/heritages look out ONLY for themselves FIRST before even considering an odar, and us Hyes need to do the same and do it well. And to re-emphasize the importance knowing things such as the Eibuben and our language, when a group of Jews visited Armenia to confirm the existence of an ancient Jewish gravesite, after simple carbon dating to verify the gravesite’s age, their claims were validated when Ancient Hebrew inscriptions of the people buried there were discovered. Boom, case closed, it’s a Jewish grave site. Now had the Jewish language been allowed to die and become long gone, these groups of Jews would be standing there with a rock in their hand that dates back 2000 years but cannot be confirmed to be “of Jewish origin”. And this very same phenomenon can happen with huge land masses such our beautiful homeland, our descendants won’t be able to make any claims to that land if the very language that exist in temple inscriptions on that land cannot be identified as their own because we allowed our culture of 3000+ years to be replaced by “Pop-culture” or be hybridized through globalization. This is absolute and undeniable, and I’ll burn in hell first before letting it happen without at least trying to prevent it, nothing is inevitable or futile. So yes, we can conclude that PART of our personal identity DOES in fact stem from our culture, heritage, and genetic lineage; and it’s a VERY important part to try and maintain. And we must strive to keep those aspects of our identity, essentially, the aspect of being Armenian, as strong as possible. I have never said that an Armenian is supposed to be ultra-nationalistic or Dashnakesque in order to be considered “Hye”, though being so is not necessarily bad either; but to be Armenian you must at the core at least maintain your lineage that has trickled down generation after generation via Hye/Hye marriages, this is something we CAN control. Yes, it is true that at some point, our women may have been raped and some damage to our genetic lineage may have been done, but those women had little choice, but you Nairi as a modern Armenian woman, have an infinite number of choices but sadly some of you have been led to believe that those choices are non-existent or “inevitably” futile, do not buy into that farse, it simply is not true. For instance, a person who identifies himself as an Armenian but who has converted to Hinduism: is this person still an Armenian in your eyes? Sure they are, religious belief is completely separate from cultural lineage, the two are definitely not one in the same. You can be Armenian but choose to be catholic, or Hindu, Atheist, etc, etc. That is your religious belief, not your cultural lineage or heritage. It is true that as Armenians we have adapted Apostolic Christianity as our country's national religion, but that’s merely a religious doctrine we chose at the time, we were Armenians before becoming Christians, many Hyes were pagans that worshipped the goddess Ani, but they were Armenians never the less by lineage, which is the basis, root, and essence of being Armenian. When a Hye male and a Hye female create a Hye child, what that child is christened does not make him genetically and through lineage any less or more Hye. Because the majority of Hyes are Apostolic Christian by faith, some people are falsely led to think that being Apostolic Christian is directly linked to the Armenian lineage, it is not, be sure to understand this Nairi jan. Or a person who identifies himself as an Armenian but doesn't observe "Armenian traditions"? If he is of Hye/Hye parents, of course he is still Armenian. Albeit, he is a “lazy” Armenian, but his lineage/heritage is still part of the Armenian people. Granted, by being lazy about maintaining some of his traditions he makes himself/herself more vulnerable to drifting away from his culture/lineage/heritage, but yes, until he is completely drifted away and has intermarried to an odar, he is still Armenian through direct connection to his lineage and the line of the people of Armenian, Diasporan or not. But let us not discount that although observing traditions does not necessarily connect you to the Armenian lineage, it is still important to have “the feeling” of the Hye spirit, it can be used as a great motivational force for pro-Hye efforts. However I will say this, if your parents are Hye/Hye, being Armenian and being tied to Armenian lineage is still valid to announce, even if you decide not to observe Armenian traditions. However, many people think the converse is also true, that is, by simply observing Armenian traditions but having Hye/Odar parents you are still completely part of the Armenian lineage, this is NOT true, only one half of your lineage/heritage is that of Armenians the other half belongs to the other parent’s odar heritage. Also, some people actually believe that a child of an Odar/Odar is also considered as part of Armenian lineage simply because they observe Armenian traditions, this is not only a preposterous notion but also a VERY dangerous one, because it opens the doors for odars to make claims on rights that only belong to people that are truly of Armenian ancestry, lineage, and heritage. Essentially, an odar group of people can say, “We observe Hye traditions, thus we are Hye, and this land ALSO belongs to us”, this ladies and gents is EXTEMELY dangerous, and it is one of the things media Elitists try to pass off as legitimate through their manipulation of Pop-culture by blurring the lines of lineages and distinct heritages. And does it matter whether this person has Armenian parents or not? Yes it does, read the above for a brief explanation. However, I will say this, a Hye/Odar person should NEVER be persecuted by our Hye communities or any of us simply because only one of his parents is Hye, they should be made to feel welcome. But at the same time, we must realize that ultimately that person is only half Hye by lineage/heritage and no amount of observations of Armenian traditions by him/her will change that fact. We must also realize that when an inter-marriage happens, at each consequent generation, less of that ongoing lineage/heritage will be composed of Armenianism, because at each generation a new lineage/heritage is introduced. A person that began as ½ Hye will have his children be ¼ and grandchildren be 1/8, so on and so forth, gradually dwindling to an unrecognizable fraction. The ONLY way to partially salvage the lineage/heritage is to re-introduce a Hye/Hye marriage after a single round of Odar/hye marriage has occurred. Hello Pirate, I sense so much anger in your words. Your caricaturesque nationalism is just an expression of that. It’s not anger you sense in my words, it is disappointment. I’m disappointed that as a 20 something Armenian male, I’ve actually met a 30 something Armenian male that is as culturally jaded, naïve, and careless as you are. I, as well as the other youth here on these boards, should be learning something from you but after reading post after post of your redundant and irate cry of “diasporans will disappear inevitably”, “Armenia will one day be taken care of by people that don’t call themselves Armenian”, or the ever classic “TAP, you’re a critical thinker, hence you are a fanatic”, I have come to the conclusion that there is only one thing that I or anyone else can and should learn from you Boghos, and that is to make every possible effort to NOT be like you as an Armenian and to be wary that we don’t end up becoming so one dimensional in our beliefs that what lies ahead is beyond our control as a people the way you have become as an individual. There is no contradiction between being an intellectual and being an activist. No there isn’t and I never said there was, again, do not put words in other people’s mouths just to drive your point forward. In fact, the ultimate and most potent form of an Armenian is when a TRUE intellectual Armenian decides to stop being merely an “intellectual” but to also be an activist. Such a person is then a force that is so relentless and so powerful, that the environment around him yields to his will and the surrounding environment accommodates HIM, he does not have to accommodate his environment any more, ever. The most incredible part of this idea, is that there exists no pre-requisite for achieving this except personal desire. Any one of you readers can achieve this, yes it can be more difficult for some than others, if you generally are a person of low self-esteem, overcoming that barrier is more difficult, however it can be done given time, confidence development, and self-motivation. What I DO have a problem with is those intellectuals that when in a social setting, put out great ideas and puff up like an over-bloated Einstein about Armenian topics, then after the neo-socialite gathering of drinking and “partying” is over, they won’t even admit to an odar that they are Armenian if it doesn’t suit their taste or their situation. They soon revert back to the Pop-culture slave that they truly are. When someone behaves like this, whether online or off, it just tells me that the ONLY reason they even bother to pretend to care or be involved with Hye issues is because they would like to build up a social image among their Hye peers for self-gratification, recognition, and praise. Folks, it is not enough to simply be an “intellectual” that can talk, write, and debate brilliantly during social settings among his Hye peers. Also, it is not enough to be a mindless activist that jumps at the first chance to wave the Armenian flag. To be effective and of any use to your people, you have to be a combination of both. Think of an idea that you feel would help Armenians in general, then, do some personal research to make sure that it in fact is positive for Hyes and not just “the trendy thing to do”, finally, IMPLEMENT IT through your OWN actions. Don’t tell it to someone else under the assumption that merely because it is a “great” idea that the other person hearing about it will implement it for you. This is important to realize. Unless of course you believe that the way of a stormtrooper is the best way. Seriously, you need to tone down on the metaphors and abstract analogies my friend. I’m sure you’re thinking about writing “well you’re too stupid/uneducated/etc to know what I’m saying” right now, but honestly, you get lost in your own metaphors and attempts at creative writing, tone it down a little so things can be a bit more clear-cut. Denying our intellectual heritage is just another expression of self-destruction. You’re right, but again, you’re putting words into my mouth. I never said we must deny our intellectual heritage. What I DID say, is any intellectual that only speaks of his/her “great ideas” for helping our people then disappears into Pop-culture due to a belief in the false inevitability of our people’s circumstance or for whatever reason, is a worthless one, and I will confront him/her and tell him/her that he is worthless not to mention a pathetic coward each and every time I come across such a person. I will always respect and support an intellectual that has a “small idea” and takes ACTION to implement it versus another intellectual that has “a big idea” but expects “other Armenians” to do it or only talks of his great idea to promote his self-image as “the intellectual” in a social setting. Your assertion that you have not insulted anybody directly or indirectly simply does not stand under the most flimsy scrutiny. I never deny myself the fact that what I write won’t emotionally upset someone at some point, you being no exception. However, nowhere in my writings do I attack someone’s personal character, the same cannot be said of you or TB. The both of you will put up an argument then at some point when you do not have valid counter-points, you default to “you don’t get it because you’re XXXXXX” or “I’m an old-timer with XXXX posts, thus I’m right” or you try and bandwagon your arguments against a new-comer on these boards in order to intimidate them, and it’s just pathetic and you’re at zero credibility right now because of such antics. Make no mistake, I will not hold back with disproving another person’s ideas if I do not agree with them. If an individual has the courage to speak his mind and express his ideas, then that individual should also realize that those ideas will be challenged and must be defended, but they must defended through VALID COUNTER-POINTS that are equally detailed as the argument they attempt to disprove, NOT by the ridiculous methods described above that you and TB try and use. In the beginning, you were making some good points but once TB came along to be your crutch and compliment you on every post, you basically resorted to personal attacks after writing one or two witty paragraphs of the same nonsense over and over again. You make a post, TB then compliments you with something like “once again, Boghos, you understand my points very well bravo”, I can almost hear his bourgeoisie tone when he writes; then he makes a post for you to compliment him on. Both of you think you’ve built credibility for your arguments by doing this, but instead you’ve lost all credibility, and no self-respecting critical thinker would buy into it on these boards. TB actually has the audacity to say things like “once again Boghos, you’re one of the few that tempts me to write”, then, when called on his arrogance and pompous statement, actually has the nerve to deny it and retort with yet another personal attack. And I love the way he keeps reiterating how “busy” his life is, he must be learning to walk on water or performing some other miraculous deed, it’s not like the rest of us 1500 registered users have much else to do in our daily lives. This must be why the rest of us can “make time” to put up decent posts while he posts one-liner insults or his couple paragraphs of mind-numbing wit here and there; after all he is “too busy”. Or maybe it’s just because he is in fact arrogant, condescending, and pompous with his statements. But I digress, my post count is “only 20” and you two are “old-timers” with 1500 posts, you must be right because of this, at least this is what TB thinks. I’ll tell you what, when you can actually debate with me properly, we’ll just assume both of you are right ALL THE TIME because of your “high post counts” and the fact that you’re “older timer” Hye Forum members. After all, my observational writing of the truth in our Hye communities cannot possibly compete with both your combined “post counts”. But I have had it with your rather obtuse and obscure ways. I on the other hand will say that I ironized and made a series of sarcastic remarks, some less others more obvious. Every time you read my posts you may find a new one that you had not previously seen. Have fun. Let’s see here, I’ve been writing about Hye youth being dynamic thinkers, action takers, and motivated lineage/cultural/heritage preservationists if we’re to succeed as a people. I also spoke of being less judgmental of our gorgeous Hye women and to make them feel comfortable within their own communities and social circles by not raising our youth in a sexually judgmental and repressed manner. Then I spoke of how Hyes should individually be greater critical thinkers with ideas which they can implement through action. I’m also an advocate of the individual Hye’s potential being only limited by the individual himself/herself. You on other hand, have just continually preached to the young readers on these boards about why Diasporans regardless of what they do, are doomed to fail in their efforts, and that it is not possible to retain Armenian lineage/heritage AND enjoy Pop-culture trends simultaneously. You also have a very morbid view about the future of Armenia and Armenians all over the world, this was evident when you said “Armenia will one day be taken care of by a people that do not speak the language and don’t call themselves Armenian”. At this point, I can easily conclude that NOT ONLY are your ideas the anti-thesis of our ARMENIAN spirit, but that your ideas are also the very anti-thesis of the HUMAN spirit as well. Next time you use the words “obtuse” and “obscure” to make accusations toward others, make sure you know exactly what they mean then think about your own pessimistic one-dimensional mentality before falsely accusing others of such things. I do take it the "wrong" way, which is the only way it could be taken. With your permission, dear high commissioner, I will choose whom I like and whom I don't. I will choose whom I consider an intellectually compatible person. Boghos and I (my membership number is misleading) are "old-timers" here, and we understand each other pretty well I think. Do you mind? Why would you take it the wrong way? You DID make a VERY arrogant comment, what did you expect others to do when you said “Boghos, you’re one of the few that tempt me to write on these boards”? If that’s not a pompous and arrogant comment, I don’t know what is. Did you expect everyone here to thank you for being condescending during a debate? Also, what makes you think you’re qualified to make such a statement, have you performed some sort of global miracle that the 1500 of us are not aware of? If anyone here thinks he/she is “the High Commissioner”, it’s you, not me. I just write up my ideas for everyone to read, I don’t twist anyone’s arm to read my material or to respond to what I write. Also, weren’t you the one that tried to claim superior credibility on these boards by announcing to me and the rest of the board that you have seniority because you are one of the first to register and that you’re an “old timer” with a high post count? I couldn’t care less when you registered on these boards, how many posts you’ve accumulated, or how old you are, those numbers do not make you more credible or more correct than anyone else on these boards. Post-count, date of registration, or age does not count for anything in a debate, experience does, and if you think that because you are older or have a higher post count that you are somehow “more experienced” or more credible in this debate, you are sorely mistaken TB. I do act "arrogantly" towards people that deserve it well. If you observe my instances of being less than pleasant, you will see that it reflects my lack of patience with arrogant stupidity, even though I am infinitely patient with innocent stupidity. No one “deserves” another person’s arrogance, and I pity anyone that has self-esteem that’s low enough to actually believe such garbage. If you think you have the right to act arrogantly toward anyone, you’re wrong. Is it simply because they do not agree with what you say? And just because someone does not agree with you, you assume they must be stupid or of low intelligence? You’re wrong on all counts. Try to be a bit more civil than that. This is a debate about important topics, not a character insulting contest. Furthermore, you are wrong in assuming stupidity about me or anyone else that does not agree with you. Unless you know someone else personally, I can’t see how you can make such intimate character assumptions about them TB. Raw brain power is nothing to be proud of. A toxic personality, however, is not something that we should consider unavoidable. So I must consider "toxic dum-dums who think they are extra-smart" as another source of temptation to write. I’m a “toxic dum-dum” now? Jesus, grow up man and get back on topic. Calling me names won’t strengthen your stance in this debate, in fact, it just weakened it further with that comment. I don't think he "suggested" that it be done. He simply predicted that it would eventually occur to any diasporan family after an arbitrary but finite number of generations Correction, while an “arbitrary” family that has the mentality of inevitable loss of Diasporan Armenianism may meet such a fate; a family that makes the conscious choice to speak to one another as husband, wife, and children in Armenian, observe traditions of Hyes, pass on those traditions to their children, and infuse the desire to preserve their lineage/heritage/culture into themselves and their children by not inter-marrying, WILL NOT meet any “inevitable” doom of loss in Armenianism. Just like most of what you say, you and Boghos VASTLY over simplify the dynamics of Diasporan families and the Armenian populace in general. Pirate says it all depends on "individual initiative". Well, in that case, see my argument above. It is not a self-sustaining idea. And "deciding to go back home" will realistically happen only when my aforementioned dreams comes a bit closer to being a reality (as it stands, it should start with "in a galaxy far far away ...) It DOES all depend on personal initiative. Before a group, there is the individual that is a composite of that group. There is no such thing as “group effort” without first establishing effort among INDIVIDUALS via PERSONAL initiatives. And as far as personal initiative not being a self-sustaining idea, you’re wrong. It is in fact one of the few self-sustaining mechanism in existence. An individual’s personal initiative does not need to be fueled once it is activate, until it does become activated, it does need a spark, but once alit, personal initiative coupled with the desire to see that initiative realized is such a potent force, that Elitists do their best to prevent all of you, as young Armenians, from gaining that “spark” that will fire up your initiatives. There are many individuals that live their entire lives without realizing their cultural/heritage and non-cultural desires because they are constantly being brainwashed by the media to think that the individual cannot do anything on his/her own and that taking INDIVIDUAL initiative is a “waste of time”, and NOTHING ladies and gents, can be further from the truth. While I could name countless individuals that took initiative and achieved a great many things through that individualized initiative, I will keep it within the realm of Armenians and mention Monte Melkonian again (may you rest in peace). No one can deny or dispute the fact that one day, this young man woke up, and for reasons that I have tried to understand better for years, he set out on a quest to aid his people. There are many of you on these boards that are first generation immigrants still, Monte was not. There are also many Hyes that have a far less promising “American” future than Monte did, yet he decided to do all that he did. Full ride to Oxford, with a degree already under his belt, by “the American Dream” standards, he had A LOT going for him as a young man in the United States. Yet for years I have wished to be “the fly on his wall” the moment he decided to drop it all and achieve everything he did achieve for Armenians everywhere. Things that many people only assume achievable in fables and movies, this very real Armenian achieved, NOT because he all of a sudden developed a “group mind” and joined an already existing legion, but rather, because he made a realization about his own desire and took INDIVIDUAL initiative to set out on his own and create cultural gains for his people. This is a testament of the limitless power of the individual when initiative is sparked within that person, this is what Elitists fear the most, because they know that nothing except death can stop a person that is motivated to achieve certain goals. And sadly, it was in fact death and ONLY death that stopped Monte. It wasn’t the jail-time in France, or the criticism and persecution he received from foreign governments. It simply was death and only death in the form of a shell casing against his skull that finally put his candle out. That is how powerful individual effort and initiative can be, and as Armenian youth, you are all capable of A LOT, regardless of whether your family is poor or rich, educated or uneducated, you are capable of more than you can possibly imagine; and the reason many of you cannot imagine such capabilities as being real is because you have been conditioned by Pop-culture and media to not believe in yourselves as Armenian youth and as individuals. Pop-culture is fun to dabble in and enjoy, but do not let it affect your inner personal identities as Hyes. Go out, party, drink, have sex if you feel your ready, hit the clubs, attend college, etc, etc. Do whatever you want, but ALSO remember who it is you are and of what people your lineage stems from, then take personal initiative to make certain that your lineage/culture/heritage are preserved and protected, because I promise you this as my Armenian brothers and sisters, that EVERY odar is doing the same for their own culture/lineage, and they would love for you to think that they are not so that they can get ahead and leave you in the dust as Armenians on the world stage. America is designed to assimilate the newcomers into a "melting pot". In the past, it relied on more heavy-handed tactics. Nowadays it simply waits for its cultural machinery to take care of it slowly, nicely, and surely. If America is designed to do anything specific, which to a certain extent I agree with you that it is, then what all of you should ask yourselves is “who is the designer”? The answer is again the media and those in control of Pop-culture. America is whatever these controllers of media say it is, and the populace is bombarded by their culture blending, lineage destroying, and social pacification blitzkrieg every day, including us Armenians. TB you seem like an intelligent Hye, surely you must realize all these things bud, and if you do, I don’t understand how you can buy into their bull$hit man. The ONLY time all of you as young Armenians could possibly be duped into giving up your culture/heritage/lineage, is if you did not know that the machinery that TB is talking about existed, but since you DO KNOW, you can easily manipulate it to your own will and to serve your own purpose. That means, you can be as “American” as can be the way the media machinery would like you to be WITHOUT sacrificing your Armenian lineage/heritage. You can also be a capitalistic success story, and ALSO make that choice of preserving your Armenian culture/heritage/lineage by helping one another, not taking the inter-marriage route, maintaining at least some of your traditions, and also knowing your own Armenian language inside/out both in written and verbal form. Do you think ASALA helped Armenia and Armenians, for example? Yes, they did A LOT of good for Armenia and Armenians everywhere. In a time period where Armenian plights and atrocities against Armenians were nearly dimmed and forgotten, ASALA was a very abrupt wake up call for the European communities that would have loved nothing better than for the world to forget about all the Hyes killed during the Genocide. I thank God every day that the men that formed ASALA were around to ensure that the useless political bureaucratic entities that are supposedly so concerned with “human rights” received a swift and shocking reminder over and over again regarding the Armenian Genocide as well as its recognition. Up until the formation of ASALA and its respective assault on the entities that denied the Genocide, the Armenian Genocide was in very real danger of being suffocated and “swept” under the international rug via the delusional propaganda that those mongrel Turks put out. And had it not been for all the combat experience and knowledge Monte gained from his days in ASALA, he would not have been as intuitively brilliant in his military campaigns and the training of troops that won battle after battle, ultimately gaining a significant amount of land back for Armenia before falling in battle. So yes, ASALA DID in fact help Armenia and Armenians in general with everything they did. I’ll mention one final note regarding this topic to everyone here using myself as an example. Whether I agree with ASALA’s methods or not, unless I, as an individual, have attempted anything remotely as significant as the men in ASALA did, it’s not my place to question the methods behind the very Genocide recognition achieved by ASALA that I take comfort in every day as an Armenian. Certainly I can disagree with it if I so choose or believe, but unless I’ve “walked the walked”, that is, taken a weapon, left my family and friends, and blown the brains of a Turkish “anti-Genocide” national clear across the pavement for being a lying snake, then it’s best that I disagree if I choose to, but not resort to harsh criticism of ASALA or groups like ASALA. Armenians that subscribe to this sort of view have created a deep split in communities around the world, to the point that marrying a member of the "other camp" was considered almost a crime. Marrying an odar is NOT a crime, and to treat it as such is simply wrong. Not being welcoming of a mixed Armenian/odar person is also wrong. However, marrying an odar IS in fact, the deepest damaging blow any individual can deal to his/her lineage, culture, and heritage, ESPECIALLLY as an Armenian. The reason being, that we are at a critical juncture in our history. Every Armenian’s effort, no matter how miniscule, matters in the long run if we’re to survive as a people and ultimately thrive. And when inter-marriage occurs, it acts as an axe at the roots of that particular Armenian’s family line, his Armenian lineage/heritage, and ultimately after a few generations after the initial odar/Hye marriage, the descendants of that original couple will only be marginally Armenian and will know as well as care very little about that small fraction of their own lineage known as “Armenian” if they even care or know anything at all by then. So yes, to put it simply, the odar/Hye marriage is a bad decision if you remotely care about keeping your Armenian heritage/lineage/culture in tact, if you don’t care, well then that’s a whole different case, and I pity people like that. To conclude this post, I’d like to touch up on a few things. First and foremost, I’d like to mention that the dynamics of an Armenian population far exceed any predictions made by any mathematical theories or equations. Earlier, TB brought up a variable, a 2-dimensional Cartesian graph, and an asymptotic curve dropping to zero, supposedly signifying an inevitable doom for Armenian population. He perhaps did this because supposedly math “does not lie”, well it does in many cases, I’m not going to go into the details of why. What seems to be mathematically predictable turns out to be a vastly underestimated situation to try and quantify. I’m not mentioning this in an attempt to antagonize TB, however, the model he used was HIGHLY over simplified, and even if it was a fancy version of itself with proofs, graphical trends, etc, it still is not valid within the setting of this topic. While not wanting to delve too much into my personal life, I’d like to say that part of what I do has to do with designing solutions for various academic/industrial institutions. My mentor is a very prominent Physicist by trait but has since his days as a Physicist focused his attention to computational biology schemes regarding different population models and dynamics within those models. And I can whole heartedly tell you all, that to this day, nearly every mathematical model that was supposedly able to predict how populations will behave, has at some point shown to be very fallible when the complexity of the situation is raised even slightly in the real world. With regards to the Armenian population “dropping to zero” using a math model as an indicator, forget about it, it’s just not going to happen without such immense numerical errors that are propagated left and right or variables that simply cannot be accounted for mathematically. Unless you’re among one of the 14 or so leading computational biology research groups with an extensive background in your respective field, lets leave the math out of this folks. It is completely irrelevant as well as ultimately inaccurate to try and predict something as complex and specific as Armenian cultural/lineage population trends by using a “do it all” model or equation, much less do it on an internet message board. Also, I’d like to say to Boghos and TB, you both are smart guys, but you need to tone down the verbal badgering. We’re not here to insult each other or prove who is “the greater intellectual”, we’re here to put ideas out there and get feedback from one another as well as the rest of the folks here. If you want to aggressively counter another person’s idea, go for it, that’s why we’re here; but just blatantly saying that someone does not understand you due to a lack of intelligence or disagrees with you because they are “stupid” is not going to get us anywhere guys. Personally, even though my ideas may conflict with some of yours’, I have nothing against either of you as my fellow Armenians or any of my other Hye critiques for that matter. The essence of such discussion is to find ways for us all to succeed as Armenians, and even the disagreement between fellow Hyes or mixed Hyes, should not be allowed to supercede our desire to be kind to one another, break bread and wine with one another, be supportive of one another as fellow Hye brothers and sisters, and strive forward together as Armenians. I’m no fanatic, or an extremist, or any of the things I’m accused of being, I’m just a Hye male that’s concerned about issues regarding his lineage/heritage/culture. These are issues that affect us all one way or another, regardless of where our social or political stances may be as Armenians. We can either drop our heads and let these issues screw us in the future by allowing things to continue forward without supervision or correction, or we can read between the lines a little and look around ourselves and realize that we are masters of our own destiny. We, the Armenian youth, ARE the FUTURE, and with a little bit of individual effort and cohesiveness as Armenian youth, we can mold our homeland and our future as Diasporans in any fashion we like, this is absolute. The world is a rough place, and it has treated us as Hyes as such, sometimes, you have to be more rugged than the ugliness you face in life in order to succeed. Just remember that these are NOT “romantic” or “idealistic” notions that I’ve mentioned. Those in power would love for you to believe that so that they can mold the world to their liking and drive forward their own culture/lineage/heritage instead of allowing our own Armenianism and our Armenia to thrive. I live my ideas every waking day, and I’m no one special, and everyone here can too if they choose to. If you’re ambitious, then go out there and do what you need to do to get to your goals, but always remember that you need not sacrifice the essence of who you are as an Armenian or abandon your heritage/lineage/culture in order to reach those goals; there are plenty of Armenians that do whatever they want anywhere in the world and still maintain a deep connection to their Hye lineage/heritage/culture, it is easily done once you learn to walk out of that box that Pop-culture has put you into. In fact, don’t just walk out of the Pop-culture box, shatter it to pieces and declare yourself not only an intellectual but an intellectual that has the power to breathe life into superb ideas through action and resolve. -The Armenian Pirate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 However, I will say this, a Hye/Odar person should NEVER be persecuted by our Hye communities or any of us simply because only one of his parents is Hye Glad to hear that from you :D You made my day. I usually do not like to quote Julius Evola for I do not share his overall outlook but I think he makes a few valid points in his "Revolt against the modern world". The text is not available on the web so I resort to quoting articles about the ideas he expresses in chapter 9 of the first part ("life and death of civilization"). For Evola, “Aryan” means roughly “heroic,” with only an unstable relationship to any physical type. It is a “race of the spirit,” characterized by the tendency toward inner liberation and spiritual reintegration in an active and combative form. Heroes, in this sense, have often swept away or absorbed decadent, “feminized” societies. Civilizations often fall before invigorating barbarians. The ultimate cause of decline is supernatural: “At the origin of every civilization there lies a 'divine' event…no human factor can account for it. The adulteration and decline of civilizations [are] caused by an event of the same order…when a race has lost contact…with the world of Being…then the collective organisms that a race has generated…are destined to descend into the world of contingency.” http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/ramw6.htm Evola is not interested in biological racism, he notes that several more races exist within each general category; be they black, yellow or white: "These elementary races are defined in terms that are not merely biological and anthropological, but psychological and spiritual as well. To each of the racial components there correspond various dispositions, forms of sensibility, values, and views of life which are also differentiated." Evola disputes the fact that individuals belong to the same one race, explaining that each contains differing strengths and weaknesses. In Germanic peoples it is the Nordic element which seems to occupy the highest rung of the ladder, something echoed by the Roman type among the Italians. So Evola is basically suggesting that within each individual there is a dynamic spark which is derived not from biological sources but from a more spiritual tradition. Therefore the fact that racial nationalists seek to incorporate all individuals within one solid bloc goes completely against the Traditionalist worldview. Individuals of the same "race" are markedly different, regardless of the seemingly common ancestry which has been attributed to them by nineteenth-century scientists and modern geneticists. In the midst of this racial conglomeration, of course, lies the substance of the New Man. It is he who epitomises the most superior quality of all. http://english.pravda.ru/columnists/2002/05/30/29541.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mx5 Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Glad to hear that from you :D You made my day. my wife looked at me puzzled and asked:what is that I see in your eyes,tears? I wiped them and said ,it must be the sun. she smiled cause there was no sun where i am just sitting now in my room... (I had to break my promise not to post,just couldnt resist myself) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 (edited) To Pirate, I don't know why you are hostile to me, but believe me even at this point I am not hostile to you. I appreciate that you are so motivated about keeping your heritage. While I do classify you in the "emotional" camp, there is nothing wrong with that. When I emphasize the reasoning part in my posts it's not because I am not emotional or that I don't value emotions. It's just that, solid, analytical thought is quite fragile in the face of emotional carelessness, and I try to do my part to put it back into the discourse. That's all. As for your insults about what you perceive to be my "arrogance". When I refer to me and Boghos being oldtimers, I thought it should have been obvious that I meant we have had the opportunity to understand where we stand, and that we didn't need to try extra hard to avoid misunderstandings. In other words, I don't have to write several paragraphs just in order not to offend him for pointing out something. You seem incapable of allowing earlier members to like one another when your obviously shining personality is present. Sorry. The 1500 members are largely dormant. At a given time, the active members are about 20, with perhaps as many "lurkers" that might read the stuff over a few weeks. And then there are the search-engine leads. I still don't understand why I should value each and every one's presence in exactly the same way. Somehow, in your world view, I don't have the right to express delight in seeing someone post, because, horrors of horrors, someone among the 1500 dormant users might drop by, read it, feel left out or belittled, and his/her soul would be fatally wounded. You are such a sensitive soul. When I say I don't have much time, it is true. I say it not to give an air of importance, but the opposite. I have to pick and choose what and how much I write, since I have so little disposable time. I want it to be clear that my silence or "ignoring" a comment reflects my lack of time rather than my snobbing that person (although as I said, some people definitely deserve all the snobbing they get). If you indeed have read what I have written in this forum, and you still think that I am some ego-driven, arrogant "socialite" (what a laugh), all I have to say is that you have to work on your observational skills. And also that you need to look at yourself and analyze how you come across before lecturing anyone about arrogance. From your impossibly long posts, the only take-home message I get is that there is one Armenian hot-head out there who is very enthusiastic about keeping his heritage. Good for him. The rest of your attempt at "rational analysis" is not worth the electron it's encoded in, not because it is all wrong. Just as in Ara Baliozian's case (to give an example from the other pole), 90% of what you say is already obvious, and even trivial, and the 10% that is not obvious, is almost invariably wrong. So why should I, or anyone, keep reading you, when you are not even pleasant? Edited April 18, 2004 by Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Dear TB, I understand your reasoning pretty well. Our positions are in fact closer than you may think. Note that, in my view, the core is not necessarily made of what you call "preservationists". While some degree of "preservationism" is needed (esp. at this point!) we do agree it is not a sufficient basis to serve as a definitive solution. A driving force or rather a common goal is necessary for energies to converge, in the long run. And Culture is a living entity, not a corpse to be mummified. Moreover, I do agree that the odds are against us, that is why I used the term "heroism" for heroism consists precisely in going against the odds. That said, the single thing that dominates this discussion is TAP's faith which is demonstrated by his lengthy selfless posts. And this is what I will retain from this thread. It would be wrong to discard this as simply belonging to the "emotional" sphere. There may be flaws in his actual argumentation, there may be some misconceptions... but these are of secondary importance. PS: The following text was written at the turn of the twentieth century. It is somehow related to this idea of "driving force" you mention. I figured it might be of interest to you. I give a litteral (and approximate) translation. "This kind of society may be recognized by this trait that one never mentions society. Truth, spirit, life, this is what we see and search - union is given as bonus - and the most certain sign of its decadence is that one feels and betrays the need for it : like those barbaric warriors who enchained themselves with one another when they felt their courage weakening. In every living and superior society, the social body appears dominated, vitalized, by a sovereign reality, a common goal where all the spirits and wills converge. Faith in this reality is its soul and place. Society endures and grows through faith only, while all commune with it and each subjects his logic, ego and immediate comfort to it. But this reality is not given or immediatley grasped. It is felt by the interior intuition and revealed through the works by which it is embodied and expressed, both of them imperfect means. The term of convergence is beyond any intuition or actual implementation. Faith is cognition, it is also confidence. Shall we say it is a mere social symbol, that there is nothing more to it than union itself, that the secret of this truth is its lie, of this reality, its void ? Such is the tenet of the new sociology which amounts to metaphysical nihilism. We will not discuss this here, maybe is it not possible. Idealism, from Kant to Durkheim, distinguishes between the social role of faith and its actual value, and pretends that it may keep the first while negating the other. I do not know whether the view is right but the calculation is definitely wrong. The day faith is convicted of illusion, whatever praise one may give to its social utility, it dies, and the social body, deprived of its sap, dries out on its soil. It may be a symbol but this symbol serves as a foundation for its reality. Take off the illusion of truth _ the reality of union disappears. It might be that the human spirit, in its greater work, edification of society, pursue a ghost: It is necessary that it ignore it. For if it is disabused, it will shy away from its effort, from life itself, as dying Don Quixotte." Hi Axel, I knew that you and Boghos weren't as far apart from one another as the appearance of escalating mutual animosity suggested. As I mentioned before, "faith" (not in its usual religious sense) is the fundamental requirment, and even an end in itself when it comes to choosing to perpetuate the Armenian identity. And thanks for the passage. My interpretation of it is more along the lines of the "reality" of life, reality of human concerns as distinct from and above the "physical" mechanism underlying "everything". It affirms my position that we simply have to go along with what is in essence an elaborate illusion, collectively concocted, and nurtured. By nothing more than faith and imagination. I mumbled a few things along those lines elsewhere in the forum. Probably (I am not sure)under one of Domino(x)'s threads, as they tend to bring out such stuff. It concerns "Armenian identity" to the extent that it is a part of "life" for some of us. Anyway, good to have you here. Best, TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 I’m a “toxic dum-dum” now? Just to clarify for to other readers. The "toxic dum-dum" was a generic comment and was not directed at anyone in particular in this thread. However, considering Pirate's last post, perhaps it should have been. Pirate, I did not call you stupid. However, I reserve the right to point out stupidities as I see them. And I was not really addressing you, anyway, other than mx5's or axel's interpreations of what you wrote. And no, there is no politically correct "equivalence" between an intelligent thought and a stupid thought. And I don't need to know one's "intimate personal details" to know enough about what's relevant. What matters is what's written here, not their "intimate personal details". If someone acts like a toxic dum-dum here, that's what he is for the purposes of the public discussion. That the same person may be sweetheart in real life is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted April 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 (edited) Just to clarify for to other readers. The "toxic dum-dum" was a generic comment and was not directed at anyone in particular in this thread. However, considering Pirate's last post, perhaps it should have been. TB your entire argument has lost its credibilty a while ago because all you do is personally insult people that do not agree with you. You did it to TAP, Axel, MX5, and pretty anyone else that does not agree with you, give it a rest. By the way TAP you had me at "hello"... Good stuff! Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArmenianPirate Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 From your impossibly long posts, the only take-home message I get is that there is one Armenian hot-head out there who is very enthusiastic about keeping his heritage. Good for him. The rest of your attempt at "rational analysis" is not worth the electron it's encoded in, not because it is all wrong. Just as in Ara Baliozian's case (to give an example from the other pole), 90% of what you say is already obvious, and even trivial, and the 10% that is not obvious, is almost invariably wrong. So why should I, or anyone, keep reading you, when you are not even pleasant? TB, I have nothing against you my friend, as another Hye, you would always be welcome in my home and at my table, as would anyone else on these boards. However, to classify me and my approach on this topic as “overtly emotional” or a “hot-head” is just another indicator of how horribly jaded people these days have become. If anything, I am not a very emotional person at all. If there is the quintessential “analytical” image of a 20 something out there, I am him. I make my living on being analytical because of the field I’m in. Simply because I write in detail about what truly is happening around us as Armenians with care, does not make me emotional, and even if it did, being emotional while at the same time having a good analytical sense is definitely not a bad thing. Also, NEVER read what I or anyone else says merely because it is “pleasant”, because even lies can be made pleasant to the eyes and ears. My goal is not to write pleasantly, my goal is to write about truth and what is truly happening right now with us Hyes and to present ideas of how may can possibly deal with our problems as Armenians; and in those writings at times I will come off un-pleasant and at times I will come off as pleasant, you should not read what I write merely because it is “pleasant” or “un-pleasant”. My efforts seem “hot-headed” only because most individuals have socially been pacified for so long through the media. People are kept so busy with the media’s blitzkrieg onslaught that they forget the very meaning of what being a critical thinking and active person really is. Instead they are led to believe that when someone is a critical thinker and takes action about his own ideas, he must be a “fanatic”, “hot-headed”, “overtly emotional”, or “extremist”; but this is simply not the case my friend. But I must admit, the media Elitists are brilliant in their methodology of turning everyone into subdued cattle like groups. And believe me, I wish every day that the things I said were as obvious as you claim them to be, but this is not truly the case. If in fact 90% of what I say were as obvious as you say it is to most folks, I would not be compelled to write everything I write. Also, the basis of my writing is strictly observation of events that are VERY real and VERY much happening to our Armenian youth, our Hye communities, and our lineage/culture/heritage as Hyes. If you believe that the remaining 10% of what I write is invariably wrong, then so be it, maybe you have not observed some of the things I have and until you do see it with your own eyes, you don’t have to read anything I write. In fact no one here has to read what I write, but make no mistake, what I write is based on what I, as an Armenian male, have witnessed on countless of occasions in my life. I just got so tired and disgusted of seeing things go on unchanged that I decided to bring these issues to light in an attempt to resolve some of the problems that are clearly damaging us as Hyes. I simply refuse to allow matters that are curable by us as a people, to eradicate the essence of my culture/heritage/lineage as a Hye and I will not sit idly by as long as I have life coursing through my body. I used to be just like you TB, very analytical and a devotee to the way of “scientific-objectiveness”. I studied the virtue of numbers, equations, and all things mathematical for a long time, but even those things are not as absolute as they are made to be. While I have not lost my analytical aspects at all, I’m not a 100% devotee to being “purely analytical” either, because people that are such devotees are easily manipulated by the media because the media knows how to exactly cater to such individuals. No one here should read what I write simply because they feel the same way or feel that I’m right. You also should not read it because you feel I’m wrong and want to prove I’m wrong with a counter-point. Read what I write merely for the reason of gaining a view and understanding that you may not have thought of before, then test it for yourself and analyze it in your own life. Look around yourself and look at how the media manipulates things in order to blend everyone together to better control them. I will continue to bombard all of you with ideas and while I may claim they may be right or wrong, YOU try them out for yourself and decide whether you agree or not. I merely make you aware of my ideas and the possibilities within them, but I cannot ever whole heartedly convince anyone of you here of anything unless you have the desire to agree with me based on what you have also observed yourself. So open your eyes and sharpen your minds as Armenians, then comb the world around you to see the truth behind what is sold to you as the truth by the media’s pop-culture ideas, this is the core of being an “intellectual”. Once you see things as they are for yourself, then decide whether you want to take actions toward changing things you feel need to be changed as a Hye for the betterment of our Armenian lineage, heritage, and culture. And once you’ve coupled your intellectuality with your actions, only then, will you realize just how much as Armenian youth you are capable of and what a powerful force you can be in any society, whether you’re a Diasporan or not. Thanks for yet another personal attack TB, you’re all class bud. Unti next time, have a restful Sunday everyone. -The Armenian Pirate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 (edited) Pirate, I have not called you anything other than "emotional", and "hot-headed". And anyone with a modicum of observational skill would have to agree with those adjectives. There is only one more thing I will call you, at that will be the third and hopefully the last of the adjectives I use to describe you, and that is "hypocrite". You attack and belittle everyone that shows the slightest deviation from your "vision", and then proceed to say a few superficial niceties to prove what a nice fellow you are, and finish with a martyrdom speech and more insults. Lay off it. To address the fundamental issue of "math". The two-dimensional graph is not incomplete. It's just that the extra dimensions are summed up by the "effective fertility rate". Plain more kids per household helps to offset the assimilated, and raises the effective fertility rate. So would providing an inspiration, a compelling "Point" of keeping Armenian identity, a convincing, compelling picture of why it is good to be Armenian. And as you know and point out, pop-culture, globalization (true or fake), and plain laziness reduces the effective fertility rate. Now if your idea of presenting a compelling idea is to bulldoze through a discussion forum and post encyclopedia-sized passionate appeals, hopefully unchallenged by anyone and admired by all in sight, so be it. I know there is a clientele for it. However, it is probably preaching to the converted, including me. Yes, me. So do you think you are reaching anyone that needs "conversion"? As for "individual effort". I am not saying at all that it should not be expended. It should. It's just that, in the absence of a compelling framework of concepts and "theory", individual efforts lack the coherence to move the trends. I, as an act of faith in the future of "being Armenian", do my "individual effort", even when I see that the battle is not going well. As for the "let Armenian boys hump Armenian girls" thread of your thoughts. While I understand and sympathize with your thoughts on it, I don't know what can be done about some of our cultural goofiness. I mean, if you find a graceful way of saying "On behalf of my/my neighbor's/my friend's son, may I ask for your daughter's vagina in copulation", please let us know. Still friendly believe it or not, TB Edited April 18, 2004 by Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 TB your entire argument has lost its credibilty a while ago because all you do is personally insult people that do not agree with you. You did it to TAP, Axel, MX5, and pretty anyone else that does not agree with you, give it a rest. By the way TAP you had me at "hello"... Good stuff! Can you understand what you read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.