Preservation of Armenian identity

[Boghos]

I think that there are a few characteristics that define us as a people. Among others: resilience, practicality and peacefulness. They are obviously interlinked.

 

Perhaps this varies from person to person but at least my experience and that of many around me is that unlike many other peoples, we are not waiting for the Messiah. We rally around the feeling, the belief if you will, of Armenianess not based on an ethereal or unreachable being, or some thought of redemption. That might be one of the explanations for our peacefulness (which should not be confused with the instinct of self preservation, they go together as paradoxical as it may sound).

 

In that sense Armenia will always be preserved in the diaspora but by people that might no longer call themselves Armenian, nor obviously speak the language etc.

 

If we are orphans than we have always been orphans. But I don´t believe this to be the case. We are not orphans, we are just struggling in a battle of unknown consequences but that we´ll win in a way or another, as we always have. In much worse circumstances in the past. Preaching pessimism is a not unheard of Armenian habit, and many have made the mistake of reading a few of my words and accusing me of that or worse. Nothing is further from the truth...I am as much sure of the inevitability of the diaspora weakening position over time as I am of the potential that our own country offer. A short termist view would argue the opposite but would be no moe than a contradiction in terms.

 

Finally since my verbal and philosophical ability is much below some posters here and I have the habit of finishing my posts not always very coherently: if you are planning to be in Bulgaria in July come and say hello to someone in the Brazil team, it will be most likely me =D .

[Twilight Bark]

As a rare person who gets what Armenianness is about, Boghos makes thoughtful points that should not be dismissed by anyone here, even by those who may disagree.

 

I think that there are a few characteristics that define us as a people. Among others: resilience, practicality and peacefulness. They are obviously interlinked.

I agree.

 

... we are not waiting for the Messiah. We rally around the feeling, the belief if you will, of Armenianess not based on an ethereal or unreachable being, or some thought of redemption.

I agree. I hope you did not interpret my "white knight" argument as some sort of a Messiah. It was meant as the only "shortcut" way out of our current "malaise", and was neither promised nor suggested to wait for. I interpret what you say here as that, we are by tradition not "abstract" or "theoretical" nationalists, in the sense of "western thought". And I agree completely. That is something that I like very much about being an Armenian.

 

That might be one of the explanations for our peacefulness (which should not be confused with the instinct of self preservation, they go together as paradoxical as it may sound).

Indeed.

 

In that sense Armenia will always be preserved in the diaspora but by people that might no longer call themselves Armenian, nor obviously speak the language etc.

Well, I can't quite agree with that one. If the evolution of world culture had been influenced by Armenians per se (say, as much as by ancient "Greek" thought), and that we had outlived our usefulness, so to speak, I would perhaps agree with it at a certain intellectual plane. However, much of the "enlightenment" the western world has been peddling lately had been practiced by Armenians for much of their history (wrong timing?), and none of the credit goes to the Armenians, because it was apparently "invented" independently after giving one another and the rest of the world countless blood baths. The tragedy then, is for Armenians to disappear, if not into oblivion, then into obscurity right when the world has been slowly coming "their way". I refuse to be content with that outcome.

 

If we are orphans than we have always been orphans.

Perhaps.

 

But I don´t believe this to be the case.

Hmm.

 

but that we´ll win in a way or another

Not if we don't work hard and extra smart. Unless you define "winning" in such a loose way that the emergence and survival of a civilized, enlightened humanity counts as an "Armenian victory". The flag-bearers of that victory, upon reaching their target, would be standing on Armenian ashes, and wouldn't even know it. I have a hard time regarding it as a victory for the culture that would lie lifeless under their feet.

 

, as we always have. In much worse circumstances in the past.

Well, we are facing different challenges today, and we are not yet thriving. That would take active struggle and adaptation, rather than a redefinition of survival or confidence in past performance in a different world.

 

I wish Armenians to remain as a distinct group of people for eternity and become the symbol of enlightenment and triumph over the bully in humanity. Yeah, just a small wish.

 

In any case, thanks for your thoughtful comments Boghos.

[TheArmenianPirate]

It seems that one of the things to do is to encourage people like Anka to preserve their Armenian heritage. The way she was treated, however, will hardly bring her closer to Armeniannnes, on the contrary, I think she has more reasons now to move away from her Armenian heritage. That's the problem. When I said that Armenian Pirate's approach is wrong this is one of the things I had in mind.

 

Tell me. How is it that I should have treated her? How do you tell someone in a “politically correct” or “sensitive” manner or even in a way that will not “drive her away” that her adamant and relentless negative view of HER OWN culture and heritage is not something that will help her people’s cause when her mind is made up indefinitely? I mean, here is someone that basically has said that if you have any cultural insignias in your own home, such as a painting of Mt. Ararat or some form of Armenian cultural decorations, it is somehow “silly”, “un-cool”, or “fanatical”. Yet in the same breath she says she has Buddhist statues etc, etc, in such a proud manner that one cannot help but think that if being Armenian and showing interest toward STAYING Armenian is SUCH a mundane, outdated, and “fanatical” idea, then why even associate in ANY manner with other Hyes and its respective culture?

 

I have met some folks that are like this. They either have a VERY condescending attitude about being Armenian or they have such a pseudo-intellectual attitude that their “intellectuality” depreciates itself into condescension, in essence, from my experience MOST intellectuals are all “talk but no walk”. Somehow being ultra-new worldly and “Americanized” is always more appealing to them then simply being who they are, Armenian. They use words like “embarrassing”, or “awkward”, or anything that makes their own heritage seem somehow “behind the times” and thus, according to their mentality, it should be abandoned. Yet these VERY SAME types of people, if put in a room full of a group of Buddhists/odars and another group of Hyes, will flock to the Hyes, yet they claim they are SO VERY beyond being attached to any one culture, INCLUDING their own.

 

All my life I have seen some folks like this, they knock the ideas of Armenianism, being culturally attached/passionate, and being pro-preservation, yet they themselves never have the courage to actually detach themselves from that very Armenian culture that they so shun and arrogantly cast aside during every “intellectual” discussion such as this one. And yes, make no mistake about it Sasun, I WILL in fact confront these types of people head on and will not “sensitively” dance around the topic at hand with philosophical jargon in an attempt to vocalize my profound vocabulary the way some of the folks on these boards do. All my ideas revolve around the truth and what I observe around me, as a young modern Armenian male in the prime of my life, I could not possibly write as much as I have written with a basis that is just made up of “casual opinion” or “philosophical” nonsense. My basis is truth through observed and occurring events within my Armenian-American community and my solutions are through simple day to day ACTIONS of the individual that chooses to realize that even ONE motivated individual can shake the foundations of negative stigmas, make notable contributions to his/her culture, and have the capacity to understand that without one’s own identity/lineage/heritage you’re nothing but a person of “the human race” without any recognizable rights or claims.

 

 

Let me make this clear to all of you, IF you ruthlessly, carelessly, and callously dismiss Armenianism as “embarrassing”, “behind the times”, “silly to try and preserve”, or in any other arrogant and condescending manner yet not have the brass nor the balls to COMPLETELY and UTTERLY detach yourself from everything and anything Armenian, I WILL call you on your bull$hit every single time, and I will be just as blunt about it as you are about cultural dismissal. I’m not here to paint the truth and make it nice and sensitive for anyone, I’m here to tell it how it is, and that’s EXACTLY what I’ve done. Yet the first thing out of most of your mouth’s is “TAP is a fanatic” followed up by negative criticism. When you scrape off all the articulate grammar and fancy words, my passion and purpose is FOR all Hyes, even those that are jaded and long gone. I do not advocate shutting out anyone that does not agree with me, or anyone that is not of hye/hye parents, or any other manner of “my way or the highway” mentality. We have to have AS MUCH cohesiveness as possible as Armenians, but that cannot be at the cost of WILLINGLY or EAGERLY blurring our cultural identities, promoting negative stigmas that are merely social and not at all “Armenian”, and taking lineage/heritage for granted via “it’s okay to marry odars under any circumstance” type views.

 

EVERYONE here has a least SOME valid points in what they say, because everyone here has grown up with distinct experiences and maybe simply being Armenian has seriously injured some of you here, so it’s natural that some of you prefer alienating yourselves. But at the same time some folks here are so blatantly brainwashed by the media blitzkrieg of ideas that it simply boggles my mind. Some of your minds seem to have been dough on the shelves, and the media/pop-culture showed up with cookie cutters.

 

 

Regardless of your experiences as Hyes however, I have always felt that at least some degree of every Hye’s inner conscience has room for a little bit of self-admiration for being who you are as a Hye. But I’m just surprised and frankly appalled by the way some people on these boards speak so proudly about their LACK of self-admiration as Hyes. Instead, most of you choose to bicker and philosophies amongst yourselves instead of actively making an effort to resolve our cultural issues with decisions that are SO simple to make when you have even the most miniscule amount of love for our beautiful heritage. I do not have a “martyr”, “champion”, “knight”, or “savior” mentality, nor do I ever want to be those things. If I died as any one of those things, I won’t serve any purpose for my people/heritage. I plan on living as long as possible so that I can do as much as possible for my cultural identity. I’m also not a fanatic by any means the way some of you would have me labeled. I do carry some ethnocentric views and rightly so. This is because I am continually reminded by some Hyes that my ethnocentrism must exist to compensate for their sheer void-like cultural/heritage admiration. Having ethnocentrism will serve me and my people a much greater motivational purpose VS being a jaded “too modern for Armenianism” socialite that doesn’t have a clue about what goes on in the world around him/her outside of what “the news” tells them. At the core, I’m just a regular educated 20 something professional that is just as “American” as all the rest of you neo-socialites. Perhaps the main difference between me and my critiques is that I one day realized that having critical thoughts about preserving my own culture, heritage, and Armenian lineage is not a form of fanaticism, but rather a very necessary basic need in order to preserve my self identity as an Armenian in an ever merciless world governed by media elitists; but the pop-culture media would have all of you believe otherwise; and many of you have bought into it like sheep.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean no disrespect to anyone but very often people who have taken the role of championing Armenian national ideals are not doing it right. They are doing something else instead, consciously or unconsciously. It could be serving their own interests, creating an image of a leader or a savior of a nation, fooling themselves and others, using this role to fight their opponents, etc... and never the Armenian nation benefits from their activities.

 

And you would insinuate that this is what I’m doing? What you say would hold water in this discussion if all of you were flocking to me as “your leader” and saying “what can we do to make things better TAP, our great leader” like zombies. But as it stands about 80% of you have a negative view of me, are my harsh critiques, and dub me a fanatic; that’s not the “image” any person would want to portray for themselves willingly I think. As far as fooling others, I definitely have not managed “fooling” anyone here into anything, you don’t fool folks with the truth, you fool them with lies, and what I’ve written thus far has never been lies, it’s truth based on what’s happening in our culture/communities. And yes I do have “a role”, it is that of my birthright, my role as an Armenian-American. To me, the responsibilities of that role include preserving the cultural values within that role, it’s domains of heritage, it’s historic lineage, and making sure that my individual Armenian–American rights as well as that of my people are protected, maintained, and respected here in the U.S. and all over the globe.

 

I wish I could say that the rest of the world shared the sentiments of “one human race without cultures” the way some of you irately preach over and over again. If that was in fact the case, we would not have to have struggled to this day as a people and been massacred as well, because we would be considered part of “the human race” and would have been treated accordingly. But instead we HAVE BEEN struggling and HAVE BEEN persecuted because most of the world’s cultures are out to preserve themselves and climb to the top of the global mountain, and Hyes should not be an exception to this rule simply because some of you folks have been brainwashed into thinking the world is a “one big happy family” type of place by the elitist that want to wrestle control from you.

 

As one previous poster so correctly put it, “it’s a dog eats dog world”, which it is. And if that’s the case, I’d definitely want to be the Pit-Bull instead of the prissy Pink Poodle.

 

And when you say my type of mentality and outlook does not “benefit” our people/nation, it is a bit ludicrous. So far I’ve had some people write and say that after having read some of the things I’ve mentioned, their own desire to put in effort for our people has been rekindled/renewed. HOW is that NOT a benefit for our nation/people? If it wasn’t for my deep rooted cultural love/passion I would never have done 90% of the culturally positive things I have done as a Hye. My outlook has allowed me to take actions and steps for cultural gains as an Armenian that I would otherwise not have taken had I been a jaded media child of MSNBC, CNN, MTV or VH1. So again, I can’t surmise how you come to the conclusion that my approach or mentality is not “beneficial” to our people/nation when in fact it has brought nothing but benefits in one form or another.

 

I feel a connection with you all as Hyes and care about all of us as a people deeply, but maybe some of you should not approach these discussions with “How can I take apart TAP’s or this other guy’s arguments” as the crux of what you write, but instead, look within yourselves a bit then try and concentrate your efforts in addressing the many issues I and other people on these boards have brought up. That would be a “benefit” for our people and nation wouldn’t it Sasun? And I know you’re all about being a “beneficial” Armenian. So get started.

 

 

 

Appreciation of what? The rheotoric that doesn't accomplish anything but further divides Armenian individuals? Perhaps some will appreciate the rheotoric, but I am tired of it and hope for more than rheatoric. Note that I am not talking about this forum and this thread only. Armenian Pirate is one example, he is not the first one or the last one talking about this issue.

 

Unless I’m misunderstanding you, you seem to be insinuating that what I have said somehow creates division. If you ever do meet me and perhaps re-read what I have said, you’ll see nothing can be further from the truth and my ideas certainly never promote division amongst us Hyes. Division among Hyes is the very anti-thesis of what I try to strive for as a Hye male. To me there is no such thing as Hayastanzi, Parskahye, or Lipanahye, everyone is just Hye and part of the Armenian people, that’s it, nothing more, nothing less. I also never have or will ever endorse any of the negative stereotypes that Parskahyes hold of Hayastanzis , Hayastanzis of Parskahyes/Lipanahyes, etc etc, those stereotypes will never get us anywhere as a people. And none of what I say is merely “rhetoric” my friend, on the contrary, my ideas are based on things that are easily “doable” through simple decision making on a daily basis when the motivation is there and I have always stressed this fact about my ideas. However, when there is lack of any real cultural motivation and folks are jaded the way some posters here are, not even the easiest idea can be implemented into a working action.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's a lack of interest, or maybe they haven't made their minds up about the issues we're discussing here, I don't know. But I do feel it would be nice to hear from other people besides all the same posters who always start this kind of topics.

 

 

Perhaps you’re right Gurgen. But perhaps it also could be that most women on these boards and many others have the negative stigma that a good chunk of Hye men are controlling, sexist, chauvinistic pricks. Which to some degree is true and hence leads to wonderful Armenian girls seeking out a more mild mannered atmosphere underneath the bedsheets of odars, instead of a Hye lover. All this while maintaining the illusion their community so relentlessly tries to impose on them and then dubs that illusion “the Hye way”, when in fact it has NOTHING to do with Armenianism but is rather a remnant from a socially oppressed past for women.

 

The unfortunate part about this is that we as Hye men only have ourselves to blame for continually being so judgmental toward our women when it comes to matters of sex, relationship, etc. Granted, I’ll say NOT ALL us Hye men are like this, in fact more Hye men are perfect gentlemen than those that are overtly brash and judgmental, but never the less, I can’t help but wonder if the Hye women on these boards hesitate to address the topic about sexual repression and the judgmental onslaught they endure from our Hye communities because it has become much easier to simply create an illusion of “makur” rather than correct the sexual stigmas and create acceptance of sexuality within our communities through risk and open minded action. Come on ladies, let’s hear more feedback please!

 

 

 

The world is my home. My culture is what I make it.

 

I’d like to believe that you are in fact so strong willed, but that very statement is the first sign of being what TAP calls, “The Media Child”. The truth in most cases for folks that say “my culture is what I make it” is that their culture has already nearly gone beyond their own power to mold, they just hold onto the illusion that they still have control. In fact, it has already been molded by MTV and VH1 by the time they hit college when their actual heritage/lineage, such as Armenianism in our case, is not also nurtured alongside “pop culture” by parents/guardians. It is only through conscious self-admiration of your native heritage/lineage that any individual can hope to retain their strength of will that allows them to realize that “pop culture” is merely just pop culture and nothing more, at best, pop culture is a trend that morphs every few years. And where is this self-admiration inspired from and nurtured? From those you’re raised by of course, if they are “too busy” to instill it within you and stress its importance while nurturing it, it is only natural that you will become a child of the media, hence when asked about “your culture”, you respond by saying “My culture is what I make it”, because that is the essence of the destructive effects of media globalization. Essentially, the control over maintaining the core of your cultural sentience has been wrestled from your control and belongs to media pop culture. You are a mental slave of how you “should be” rather than being able to realize what you “are”.

 

 

 

 

Millions of people travel the world on the daily basis. This isn't 5000 BC when mountains and rivers were an obstacle and we were stuck in one area. Times are a-changing and so is my concept of homeland. Why do I have to be orphan to have these views?

 

Question to ask here is, what has caused the mental change of that concept? You would be quick to answer, “ME OF COURSE”! But I highly doubt that you even were aware when the change of that concept was taking place, slow media feeds did it over time, not you. Only when you make that realization AND believe it wholeheartedly will you truly have your personal control back with regards to your actual heritage/lineage and not that of pop-culture. Think about this.

 

Until next time, take care everyone.

 

-The Armenian Pirate

[Sasun]

And yes, make no mistake about it Sasun, I WILL in fact confront these types of people head on...

 

Armenian Pirate, confront all you want, but like I said, the Armenian nation will not benefit a bit from such confrontation. On the contrary, it will create more divisions. Your approach is not right neither in theory nor in practice. The reactions so far have shown that those who are at risk of leaving Armenianness have not come closer. And folks who agree with you do so because they are standing where you are, i.e. they have chosen to stay Armenian. Your intentions are good but your approach is counter-productive in my opinion.

 

I am sorry to say, but your post is not much more than rhetoric to me, it doesn't create a difference from my point of view. Although I must admit, had you not started this topic I would have hardly focused on it, at least not right now. And don't take my criticism as denial of all that you stand for, in fact I don't like criticizing.

 

So thanks for bringing up this topic and raising our awareness, and thanks for putting so much energy

[Sasun]

It is "self-inflicted" only through neglect, not by a conscious choice. And the neglect is largely due to the orphanhood itself. It is a self-perpertuating process of the chicken-or-egg kind, and which came first is unimportant today.

I see, I would also add that part of orphanhood was caused by lack of any choices.

 

There are two ways to break it:

1. Gradual evolution

2. An "externality", or a "white knight".

 

Actually I had gradual change in mind. It seems more natural as well as more likely to happen (as opposed to an external effect).

[Sip]

To me there is no such thing as Hayastanzi, Parskahye, or Lipanahye, everyone is just Hye and part of the Armenian people, that’s it, nothing more, nothing less. I also never have or will ever endorse any of the negative stereotypes that Parskahyes hold of Hayastanzis , Hayastanzis of Parskahyes/Lipanahyes, etc etc, those stereotypes will never get us anywhere as a people.

Well, after saying ALL that, it basically boils down to this ... you choose to define "your people" (aka Hye) by drawing some abstract imaginary line encompassing some abstract and imaginary group of people.

 

The entire argument here basically boils down to where people want to draw that line that groups the people with some assigned responsibilities such as cultural preservation. Some go as far as drawing it simply around the globe (which you mock), and on the other extreme some go down to the lowest levels and draw lines around the barska-, lebanona-, america-, hayastanya- etc etc hyes (which you do not endorse).

 

Obviously barska-hyes and america-hyes have quite different cultures than Hayastanya-hyes and therefore, their responsibilities should be defined differently. For example an America-hye cannot be expected to live up to the same "Armenianness" criteria as the Armenian in Hayastan. If you are not willing to acknowledge this, then you are a blind fanatic! But if you are willing to acknowledge this fact and yet you still choose to draw your abstract grouping line around "all hyes", then at least be humble enough to admit this ... that there is really no concrete thing as "hye" in this day and age that could encompass Armenia and Diaspora in any meaningful way.

 

note: By "meaningful" I mean anything other than "rhetoric".

[ED]

Coherent and necessary essential structure! Yes wonderful and certenly welcomed I ask you all how do you see achieving this, as I see in this tread, so far it has been one of the most productive and welcomed treads for a long time (thanks pirate) and for all those who had an input, everyone had a valid points, thru this and similar discussions we can have a productive results,

 

I must however say first and foremost, we can yell and scream and say all we want, without the necessary and adequate “thing” we’ll always be “orphans”. And let’s not dismiss one and very important fact, history, which was the most influential factor, continues to be the most dominant “guiding light” in shaping of Armenian psyche. It’s nothing short of a disease and it’s so real. Now the question rises is to, how do we deal with this? By starting and working thoards the direction where we all can say, at times when it was so crucial, my ancestors arose for the occasion and made a difference.

 

Pardon for my incoherent observation

[Twilight Bark]

there is really no concrete thing as "hye" in this day and age that could encompass Armenia and Diaspora in any meaningful way.

"Any"? I disagree. And such a pity; I hate to disagree with people that I like.

Oh well.

[Boghos]

Dear TB,

 

Thank you once again for your comments. There might be some small differences in the way we express our thoughts but in essence they are the same.

 

I think another of our strengths as a people is that our nationalism does not arise from any feeling of superiority. It is true that once in a while it doesn´t appear to be so but these are the exceptions. Not the rule. Moreover, I am afraid that certain stereotypes of a demeaning nature have become widespread in the diaspora and that combined with the non-Baltification of post Soviet Armenia has led to an all time low in our morale. It has challenged the self esteem of the established diaspora and at the same time made life for the newcomers more difficult. The new diaspora, or new diasporas are a product of very different circumstances than the post Genocide one, but I would be very hard pressed to believe that there is an essential difference between all of these different elements.

 

As you have very appropriately put an Armenian should not be defined on what he does but rather the contrary. Please correct me if I am wrong but I understood that as a belief that we have certain values that are usually not challenged, at least in not any meaningful way. I understood also that these are not just a moral code, it goes much beyond that. Reading your statement and commenting on it I am immediately asking myself if that doesn´t smell of chauvinism or some sense of superiority. It doesn´t if it is to be taken in a purely contemplative manner, it should just help reinforce what we carry for some reason. Hence (?) my viewpoint that by force we´ll never get there, but neither by the pen. What we need is that Armenia represented in the carpets woven by orphans in Aleppo to seduce people. I can´t tell you how, but I sense it will happen.

[Arpa]

what about history ?we are here arent we?or may be you are not!!

 

in Lebanon 3% of mail armenians get married to locals in contrast to 20% of the femals!!.

 

I attribute this to a "glut" of Amenian females.

 

I would like to target this question to Armenian Pirate, although I support most of his views:

 

I made a research in my direct vicinity and discovered that the number of Armenian females outnumberd  the Armenian males 2-1  !!and it bleeds my heart that we are loosing them ,

 

my only hope is that they would be good Armenian mothers,which is not the case at all most of the time.

 

I have been holding my peace when this thread was hot with items like how the diaspora will assimilate in the western countries such as America, France etc. but not in places like Iran, Syria, Lebanon and even Turkey. There may be some truth her but it is mainly a matter of quantity rather quantity, that is, it is a matter of time rather than the character of the actors. One factor may be significant that in the latter countries assimilation is a slower process simply because there is such wide gap of religion and culture, that intermarriage is huge jump. We expand on these two aspects, yet suffice it to say that thnings will change and are changing. Observe the item below, and in particular pay special attention to where I have highlighted.

I must also confess that I have not read every item in this thread.

The following article is taken from here;

 

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/results.asp

 

The Daily Star, Lebanon

April 5 2004

 

Tearing down Lebanese stereotypes of the 'Armenian ghetto'

 

 

Special to The Daily Star

By Houry Mayissian

 

 

The discussion revolved around elections in Lebanon. Although the

title of the course was "International Communication," our professor

never stuck by the book, always trying to stir up discussions on a

broad range of issues relevant to the course. I don't exactly

remember what point he was trying to make, but he certainly made a

point for me. Turning to one of the students he asked: "Who doesn't

have the right to vote in Lebanon?" The student looked confused for a

second and then, not so sure of herself, "Armenians?" she said. The

answer the professor was looking for was of course "citizens under

21."

 

At first I thought her answer was just funny; insulting to a certain

extent, but also funny, because the young lady was a university

student and particularly a journalism student. Then, it struck me. Is

it possible that we've been citizens of this country for almost a

century now and yet people know so little about us?

 

Well, it seems that it is possible. The Lebanese not only know so

little about their fellow Armenian citizens living here, but also the

things they know are solely based on stereotypes. Two main

stereotypes particularly revolve around the Armenians living in

Lebanon: Armenians don't know how to speak Arabic and the Armenians

live in a ghetto in Bourj Hammoud.

 

These are the two lenses through which the Armenians are most often

viewed. They are often blamed for living too close with each other,

holding each other too tight. They are even made fun of, supposedly,

because they don't know how to speak Arabic well or have a funny

accent. While I do acknowledge that there are some elements of truth

in these images, it must be said that they are overly exaggerated and

often insulting.

 

It is true that most elderly Armenians don't know Arabic well.

 

It would be much wiser, however, to try to understand the reason

behind it, rather than use it as a means to mock Armenians. Most of

these Armenians constitute the first generation born after the

survivors of the Armenian genocide of 1915 hit the region. Most of

these survivors were orphans when they got here; poor, with no money,

clothes, home or family. Gradually, they started building - building

houses, schools, churches, cultural organizations, gathering places,

sports' groups, and newspapers: In other words, building a home. The

Armenian community came to be settled mostly in two major areas,

Bourj Hammoud and Anjar, which are to this day mostly inhabited by

Armenians. In these two areas the Armenians established tightly held

communities, in which the coming generation grew up surrounded by

everything that is Armenian. The kids went to Armenian schools, the

youth gathered in clubs, the neighbor was an Armenian family, the

shopkeeper was Armenian.

 

Taking into consideration the Armenian genocide, the loss of family,

friends and home which had a psychological

 

impact on these survivors, it wouldn't be surprising that they held

so tightly to each other, helped each other out and stood by each

other. Their fear of a foreign land, foreign people and foreign

language made them stick to each other and to the community. They

seldom went outside of its borders. Perhaps, they didn't even need

to.

 

This is the reason behind the elder Armenians not knowing Arabic

well. This is how the tightness of the Armenian community should be

interpreted instead of being classified as a ghetto.

 

The younger Armenian generations are past the problem of not knowing

Arabic well. Despite that, the stereotype, sadly, still prevails.

Even as a university student, I've had people asking me if I can read

or write Arabic!

 

Perhaps the media in Lebanon are to a certain degree responsible for

this image, or to be more accurate, responsible for not changing this

image. I remember that a few years ago a certain TV station had a

special talk show on the occasion of the Armenian genocide. The

featured guests were from the Armenian community. The show started

with a discussion about the historical causes of the Armenian

genocide, and its impact. Later, however, the host somehow segued

into asking questions about the "Armenian ghetto." About why

Armenians allegedly preferred to shop from Armenians and a couple of

other outrageous questions. I, as an Armenian, was deeply offended to

hear a program supposedly dedicated to the Armenian genocide and

meant to be a gesture of compassion or support towards the Armenian

citizens of Lebanon, which was turned into an interrogation about the

so-called ghetto. It was not only rude, but also insulting.

 

I believe that as long serving and faithful citizens of this country

we deserve more respectful treatment from our fellow citizens.

 

 

Houry Mayissian is a journalism student at the Lebanese American

University

[Twilight Bark]

Dear TB,

Thank you once again for your comments. There might be some small differences in the way we express our thoughts but in essence they are the same.

Well Boghos, you are one of the few that tempt me to write here.

Using up time that I actually don't have.

 

I think another of our strengths as a people is that our nationalism does not arise from any feeling of superiority. It is true that once in a while it doesn´t appear to be so but these are the exceptions. Not the rule.

I have a feeling that our "exceptions", let's call them euphemistically "Dashnakoids" , have been around 10-15%, and will remain a more-or-less permanent fixture of the Armenian landscape. So I don't really know what to call them. I can only define them by what they are not: the mainstream of Armenian identity.

 

Reading your statement and commenting on it I am immediately asking myself if that doesn´t smell of chauvinism or some sense of superiority. It doesn´t if it is to be taken in a purely contemplative manner, it should just help reinforce what we carry for some reason.

There must be a way to have a feeling of belonging to one's extended family, and appreciate its unique and precious traits without being chauvinistic. The best that Armenians have offered in their history were instances of transcending chauvinism and forming bridges between different peoples. Admiring this "anti-chauvinist" tradition cannot itself be chauvinism. If it is a "sinful indulgence", it is so only in the same way as feeling good about a charitable act (and then feeling embarassed about patting oneself on the back about what is supposed to be an altruistic act).

 

 

my viewpoint that by force we´ll never get there,

Very true.

 

but neither by the pen

Not in the sense of the European nationalist romanticism. However, the essence of Armenian identity and its "theory" needs to be formulated and discussed in Armenian intellectual life. I can barely keep up with life, so if it is done I can easily miss it. But what I am able to catch leaves a lot to be desired. I guess I am advocating a deviation from our traditional hesitation to take ourselves too seriously and put our collective wisdom into a theoretical framework that challenges the lame, traditional, "western european" nationalism and its replacement(s). So I guess I am disagreeing with your contention that we cannot get "there" by the "pen".

 

... the carpets woven by orphans in Aleppo to seduce people.

I understand what you are trying to convey. However, there is a long tradition in non-Armenian cultures of "kna merir, egur sirem" (a phrase that we used in our family to refer to the new-found love by the aggressive cultures or individuals for their long-gone victims). The seduction of those orphans are most powerful once their people vanish, and can be "properly" romanticized. I don't want to be loved after we are gone.

[Boghos]

Dashnakoids indeed.

 

I am sorry my reference to the carpet weaving orphans was too cryptic. There is a certain type of carpet which shows Armenia as a lady weeping looking at all the Armenian provinces around her on fire. This is the lady that has to be made to smile.

[mx5]

Sasun,and what do you think you are doing if not preaching?to repeat the same argument over again is Preaching in any dictionary!!

 

if preaching is alienating in your opinion, then why you think you are not alienating people like me or us,now if you dont care,the feeling is mutual.

[Stormig]

There is a certain type of carpet which shows Armenia as a lady weeping looking at all the Armenian provinces around her on fire. This is the lady that has to be made to smile.

The personification of Ani?

The same piece of tapestry, you could also find in the movie Ararat.

[Sasun]

Sasun,and what do you think you are doing if not preaching?to repeat the same argument over again is Preaching in any dictionary!!

 

if preaching is alienating in your opinion, then why you think you are not alienating people like me or us,now if you dont care,the feeling is mutual.

Well, go back and read again, I did not say such things. So much for your attention.

 

I have not said anything to alienate anyone, and I am not indifferent either.

[Sasun]

Dashnakoids indeed.

 

I am sorry my reference to the carpet weaving orphans was too cryptic. There is a certain type of carpet which shows Armenia as a lady weeping looking at all the Armenian provinces around her on fire. This is the lady that has to be made to smile.

Thanks for clarifying Boghos, I have not seen that carpet and had no clue what you were saying.

[axel]

there is a long tradition in non-Armenian cultures of "kna merir, egur sirem" (a phrase that we used in our family to refer to the new-found love by the aggressive cultures or individuals for their long-gone victims).

 

Interesting, I had the same thought recently. This indecent love for dead cultures one has strived to euthanize, I may only equate with necrophilia.

[gamavor]

if you are planning to be in Bulgaria in July come and say hello to someone in the Brazil team, it will be most likely me =D .

Dude!!! You are going to Albena for the AGBU version of the Pan-Armenian Games!

 

Well, I'm planing to go too, but not certain yet. Once I know for sure I will let you know and if so I will throw a real Bulgarian fiesta for you

 

 

PS: It is highly likely that my brother will participate in the tennis tournament for the Bulgarian team.

[Boghos]

Dude!!! You are going to Albena for the AGBU version of the Pan-Armenian Games!

 

Well, I'm planing to go too, but not certain yet. Once I know for sure I will let you know and if so I will throw a real Bulgarian fiesta for you

 

 

PS: It is highly likely that my brother will participate in the tennis tournament for the Bulgarian team.

Exactly. It is not yet 100% but almost there. Please let me know if you are going.

[gamavor]

Last time I went there was in 1999. It is a nice place, though I prefer better Golden Sands and the cost south of Burgas.

 

http://www.beachbulgaria.com/albena/albena3.JPG

 

 

http://www.albena.com/

 

http://www.beachbulgaria.com/albena/index.shtml

 

http://get.info.bg/visit/Dir.asp?d=0-1-Albena&PG=1

[TheArmenianPirate]

In principle, you are right. However, it is not obvious that the way she was treated moved her any farther than she is and wishes to be. On the contrary, one needs to be informed about the consequences of one's choices. If she rejects her extended family of Armenians, the consequence is that she will be, and treated as, an ordinary American peasant, with no special sympathy from those she rejected. She needs to know that she is in danger of losing something special and precious.

That’s a very good observation. I wish more people would see this. Instead, many individuals opt for what TAP likes to call “Scapegoat Tactics”. These Scapegoat Tactics basically allow an individual that claims to be “well beyond maintaining my heritage/lineage/culture, after all I’m an ‘American’ now” to find a cliché reason for essentially being too lazy or caught up in pop-culture to really take action for his/her own culture. So what do these types of people do? They find someone like me, TAP, and falsely make me out to be some raving extremist JUST SO THAT they can have a social justification for having “given up”, “have become too Americanized”, “Driven away”, “treated as an outcast” , or any other ridiculous reason for being a jaded Media Child.

 

These same types of people are what I have dubbed, “Bleeding Idealists”. They are SO deeply caught up in this incessant idealism that the media elites preach, that they simply refuse to see that those very same elitists that preach the “one-happy human race” nonsense are out there in the world trying to capture all the world’s resources, financial strengths, educational advancements, and social stability for their own respective culture.

 

Some Armenian individuals callously attack our culture and claim that it is “so horrible”, “not worth my time”, “silly to try and preserve”, etc, etc, yet these VERY SAME individuals then expect those that DO IN FACT still deeply love their own culture/heritage/lineage to welcome them with open arms and pretend like nothing was said. What adds insult to injury is that these jaded Hyes then go about blaming Armenians like me for their lack effort, which basically is a bunch of nonsense and smells of irrelevance the minute the words come out of their mouths. INSTEAD, these careless and naïve Hyes should just take up responsibility for their own actions, or rather, their LACK OF ACTION in our cultural communities and stop whining about being “driven away” by “people like TAP”. My purpose is to bring my fellow Hyes together, here on these boards I state facts and observations that are simply the truth without painting a pretty picture for the sensitive liberal intellectuals that constantly need verbal cushions otherwise they cry “I’m being driven away”. Stop whining like pathetic little insects folks, instead DO SOMETHING for your own sake as an Armenian to somehow help our cause. No matter how miniscule your effort, it is still better than putting in no effort what’s so ever.

 

Also, if you’re under the impression that by some grandiose miracle under the “righteous” banner of “we’re all one human race of brothers”, a Jew, an African-American, an Anglo Saxon, an Asian, an Indian, or even a Martian, will stand up for your cultural plights and your rights as a Hye individual over their own cultural rights, then you’re dead wrong. This is absolute, NEVER forget this. Someone of another culture will ALWAYS stand up for their own cultural preservation before any Armenian’s, the world is not yet as ideal as many of you make it out to be, so practice some cultural self-preservation instead of jumping head over heels into notions of Utopia.

 

we will have to be content to find like-minded individuals on and off the internet, talk idly, and stumble on. And accept countless casualties like Anka (if she chooses to be one).

Neither I, nor anyone else here, has to be “content” with anything unless they have consciously chosen to give up, this is a fact that cannot be disputed. Unless an individual is a quadriplegic that’s also deaf AND mute, they do not have to settle for anything that does not suit them culturally as a Hye. We continually run into this re-occurring theme of all 1500 of us here and the many other Diasporans being somehow individually incapable of doing anything to govern our future as well as our destiny as a people/culture. If the idea of the individual being able to move a mountain is optimistically idealistic, as some of you claim it to be, then certainly the idea of “having to settle/be content unless circumstances go exactly like this” is equally idealistic but in a pessimistic fashion. Thus we can conclude that everything between those two extremes, such as the simple daily culturally aiding decisions that I have been talking about, are very much possible and DO HAVE a significant positive effect for our cultural/heritage/lineage preservation.

 

To me, preaching by definition is to alienate.

This idea of “you’re preaching” is yet another Scapegoat Tactic in an attempt to justify a person’s refusal to show effort and be actively involved with their own culture. No matter what any of you say, reality is reality; hence it’s very obvious that simply being part of “the melting pot” and abandoning any notion of cultural distinction via heritage/lineage preservation is EASIER than actually showing active effort for maintaining one’s heritage/lineage/culture, regardless of whether you’re a Jew, Gentile, Black, Japanese, Chinese, or in our case, Armenian.

 

So how is the easier choice of diving head over heels into “the melting pot” justified? Statements such as this one above, that’s how. “Oh my God, when I’m preached to about my lack of effort, I run astray EVEN FURTHER from my culture, TAP, you raving lunatic, stop preaching to me or I’ll be forced to slit my wrists”. Essentially, the social card known as “don’t preach” can be extrapolated to encompass any argument that does not suit an individual’s taste or does not allow them to save face. If the sky was blue and Seaphan said that it’s gray, and I said to him “but it is blue Seaphan jan, why are you not seeing what clearly is being observed?” He could pull out the old Preach Card and respond “well I don’t believe it’s blue TAP because you KEEP SAYING IT IS, so I’ve decided to believe that it’s gray”. Hence, by simply stating the truth about the sky being blue (a fact in this example), I somehow magically have created this immense pressure upon another person to believe that it is grey and not blue, HOWEVER, the 99% likely truth in this situation is that Seaphan has decided to “just not give a rat’s a$$” anymore, but does not like to admit to it in a setting of his peers, hence the elaborate “preaching led me astray” card is pulled out in order to create a legitimate social justification. And ultimately and falsely, I supposedly have “alienated” him from admitting that the sky is Blue by “preaching” to him the REALITY of his situation. Claiming to have been driven away through “preaching” is like saying that instead of the “truth setting you free” (which it does), it instead somehow “gags you and holds a .45 to your head”, which we all know is a false assumption, nothing more.

 

 

Lastly, pulling the old “preach” card is ridiculous when it’s done in the face what ACTUALLY is occurring in reality but an individual simply refuses to admit it and uses the “you’re preaching to me and making me withdraw myself” one liner as nothing but an excuse to behave carelessly in the face of the task at hand. And perhaps the truth IS being preached over and over again, but SO WHAT? Does that make the truth any less true? Of course not! Just because you refuse to face what’s clearly in front of you as an individual, does not mean that it was MINE or ANYONE ELSE’s “preaching” that led you to make that choice or “alienated” you, it was your own choices that alienated you, NOT my “preaching”. YOU chose to not show effort toward your culture, YOU chose to integrate into the pop-culture melting pot the way the media elites spoon fed you to do so, YOU were the one that believed in the false idea that you can either be “American” or “Armenian”, but not both. When asked about those choices, have the courage to say you’ve made your own choices whether they agree with mine or anyone else's ideas or not, they are YOUR choices never the less, don’t dump the accountability on others by saying “they preached to me too much so I withdrew and became a jaded Media Child”.

 

 

When I say there is no coherent structure, I mean there is no coherent "we" or "our". It is correct that the stupid should become smart, the fools should become wise, and the idle should become active. And these "should"s can even be regarded as "could"s. However, they generally don't become "did"s without a coherent framework, a driving force.

This one I agree on. That “driving force” begins with an individual’s decision to become active in supporting his/her cultural heritage/lineage. And that decision is ONLY the individual’s to make, not anyone else’s. However, that does not mean that prior to making that decision, all the options and the truth of his/her surroundings cannot be put in front of the individual before that final decision is made. That’s the misunderstanding everyone here makes about what I write on these boards. Beyond all the “fanatic” accusations, I definitely am not trying to “force” anyone to meet any Armenian model that I may personally believe in. Nothing I can do behind a keyboard will force any of you to make a choice one way or the other in my favor. However, I do write everything I’ve written in order to put as much about the reality of the situation in front of all of you as possible, and make no mistake about it, what I’ve written IS the circumstances that we as Armenians face these days.

 

But NEVER fall under the guise that you as an individual somehow cannot change those circumstances to benefit us as a people. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, very few things are ACTUALLY beyond the reach of the individual that decides to exude the proper effort in order to reach their goal, but the elites would love for you to believe otherwise in order to manipulate the general populace. If you, as an individual, decide this very moment that “hey, this guy TAP might be a fanatic, but at least 1% of what he says is legit”, then decide to do something with regards to our cultural obstacles, then you already have become a force onto yourself and have made a SIGNIFICANT contribution to Armenian culture/heritage/lineage/etc. And if you absolutely are so engrossed in yourself that you refuse to be involved with anything that is cultural or “for others”, then do it for yourself! Because as it stands, whether you believe in anything I say, you are classified as an Armenian-American, so by screwing Armenian-Americans in any way, you screw yourself and IT WILL come and haunt you and your children later.

 

A good example of this is a story about an acquaintance of mine that was pretty much as anti-TAPish as possible. Our cultural ideas were as opposite as can be and he was all for “Americanization”, “melting pot pop-culture integration”, ”abandoning preservation” etc, etc like some folks here are. When Armenia was classified for a short period of time as a “Terrorist State”, the INS apparently came a knocking on this person’s door. He has been here for MANY years and pays more in taxes than most folks make as a yearly salary, but due to his circumstances he has not been able to become a “naturalized” citizen. So they basically told him he is of “a terrorist state” and that he was to be deported out of the U.S. He had to fly out of the country with his family/etc and arrange proper paperwork for re-admittance into the U.S. Even after that, his struggle did not come to a favorable conclusion UNTIL Armenia was removed as a “terrorist” state due to the EFFORTS put forth by Hyes here lobbying for our rights as Armenians. Suffice it to say that this person now thinks a bit more deeply before pledging his loyalty utterly to the “American Dream”, “pop-culture melting pot”, and the gods of “Capitalism”. Had it not been for those Hyes that do and have shown relentless effort for their culture/heritage/etc, he would have been deeply shafted by the system and the mentality he for so long defended tirelessly. And no, this person was not TAP.

 

In that sense Armenia will always be preserved in the diaspora but by people that might no longer call themselves Armenian, nor obviously speak the language etc.

Well if this happened, what is the purpose at that point then? If people that do not call themselves Armenian anymore, do not speak the language, have a completely altered culture/heritage/lineage are the only ones left to preserve Armenia then I hate to break this to you my friend, it’s not “Armenia” anymore, it’s a plop of dirt that belongs to a people not of my heritage. And if I as a Hye show up at their doorstep, I’ll get myself knocked around and my rights violated because like you said, the people in charge of Armenia’s welfare do not call themselves Armenian, can’t speak the language, and have a different cultural background. In essence, at that point, we have died as a culture. You can put us up in a suite next to the Romans, Babylonians, etc. You also add a positive note to this situation for some reason when it’s a horrific notion to think about. God forbid that as an Armenian, I have to one day rely on a group of people that know nothing of my culture, heritage, lineage, language, and do not even call themselves “Armenian” in any manner. I prey this day never comes.

 

If we are orphans than we have always been orphans. But I don´t believe this to be the case. We are not orphans, we are just struggling in a battle of unknown consequences but that we´ll win in a way or another, as we always have. In much worse circumstances in the past.

I don’t believe in the idea of "orphans" either. I don’t know where this notion of us being “orphans” comes from, we’re definitely NOT at that point yet nor have we ever been. Maybe when Armenia is completely over run and annexed into some other state, our culture decimated socially, and our language long dead, then perhaps we can use the term “orphans” for those that still are left as remnants of a people long gone. But as it stands, we have a homeland known as “Armenia”, rightful claims to that land, an official state religion, a beautiful language that transcends historical civilizations for at least 2000 years, and a culture/heritage that’s as rich and vibrant as any other on the global stage. So to make claims of us being “orphans” is a bit premature in any regard. If at this point we, as Armenians, are to be dubbed “orphans” than cultures such as the Jews, Kurds, and Azeri should be referred to with far worse terms because culturally they are MUCH more ravaged than we are. Ironically, as “gone” as some of those cultures are, they still relentlessly push to keep their culture together and to preserve it, while some of you as Armenians, being in a MUCH BETTER stage with regards to cultural/heritage/lineage cohesiveness, have already decided to “throw in the towel”. This attitude needs to change, and it begins with each individual.

 

 

Preaching pessimism is a not unheard of Armenian habit, and many have made the mistake of reading a few of my words and accusing me of that or worse. Nothing is further from the truth...I am as much sure of the inevitability of the diaspora weakening position over time as I am of the potential that our own country offer. A short termist view would argue the opposite but would be no moe than a contradiction in terms.

I don’t think anyone here has accused you of anything beyond what you yourself have said. You believe in the inevitability of Diasporan destruction through inevitable integration, I don’t, and thus I have thrust my counter-point to what you have said NOT simply as a personal opinion but as an observational fact of the PRESENT as well as the PAST in an attempt to salvage the FUTURE for our people. I cannot fathom how our survival as Hye Diasporans would have been possible had everyone thought the way you did Boghos, people would have just laid down their heads and died out of sheer hopelessness, because your theory of inevitability leaves room for little else except imminent as well as unavoidable doom. And this simply is not the case, never has been, and hopefully never will be.

Don’t take offense, but nothing about your theory is long term in any way, it is in fact as short term as it gets, “we diasporans are Fukked” is basically the crux of your theory when you strip away all the articulate chatter. And I just don’t buy it. The Diasporan position will weaken only when we choose it to be so through less and less cultural effort, NOT because it is somehow going to happen REGARDLESS of what we do. Also, the potential of our homeland is completely and utterly irrelevant if it is not exploited through action. That is the nature of the notion of “potential”, it is a potency that is there but needs the nurturing to unleash it maximally. Having potential doesn’t necessarily mean it will take a life of its own and happen on its own. We as Hyes, have to exploit our cultural potential by not believing in any idea of things being inevitable or beyond our control as INDIVIDUALS.

 

The abilities and influence of a Hye individual upon our culture, heritage, and lineage is limitless, I cannot stress this enough. Don’t EVER let anyone or any group have you believe otherwise. Realizing this is the essence of a “long-term” view, which is exactly what I “preach”, as Seaphan would say.

 

As a rare person who gets what Armenianness is about, Boghos makes thoughtful points that should not be dismissed by anyone here, even by those who may disagree.

He does make thoughtful points, and he does post, and he does put himself on the line just like all the other posters. And for that, I respect him. We may not meet eye to eye on some topics, but at the very least, by debating back and forth with one another we can encourage others to join in and feel comfortable to express their views. And that is the key ladies and gents, COMMUNICATION! Nothing gets done until we plan it first by discussing things amongst one another as Armenians. Again, I’ll say this, 1500+ folks here but only 20 or so Hyes responding to topics that are important for us to discuss and reach a compromise on. If you’re not going to post then at the very least proliferate this site, I’d like to see as many registered users as possible reading, posting, and communicating with one another as Hyes.

 

 

Armenian Pirate, confront all you want, but like I said, the Armenian nation will not benefit a bit from such confrontation. On the contrary, it will create more divisions. Your approach is not right neither in theory nor in practice. The reactions so far have shown that those who are at risk of leaving Armenianness have not come closer.

On the contrary, my approach is VERY right. I take what is ACTUALLY happening with us Hyes, and put it smack in middle of the table for everyone to see and try to resolve. Some people refuse to look at that truth and to confront it, so what do they do? They accuse my action of bringing the truth to light as a form of social persecution and actually then have the audacity to say that I “drove them away” when in fact they had already made their decision about our culture long before I ever came onto the scene. And for you to say that I’m actually the one that has caused someone like Anka to be “driven away” or that I create “division” is ludicrous and way out of line. She knows exactly what she is doing, and the decision she made about the lack of value for her culture was never forced upon her by me or anyone else. Please don’t make unfounded accusations, especially those of the magnitude which you have made towards me again.

 

 

And folks who agree with you do so because they are standing where you are, i.e. they have chosen to stay Armenian.

So wait, staying Armenian, loving my culture/heritage/lineage is blatantly a “bad thing” now?! Are you serious when you say these things?! I’m just blown away by that statement. What is it you suggest people “like me” do? Abandon our very identity, strap on a yamacka, and convert to Judaism? Or perhaps I should take a statue of Buddha underneath my arms and convert to Buddhism? Or better yet, I’ll be an “American”, yes that’s it, but before I do embrace my “Americanism”, can you please define for me what it means exactly to be “American”. More specifically, define for me what it is to be “American” beyond the pop-culture ideas of what it supposedly is.

 

You’re damn right I’ve chosen to be Armenian, because that’s who my parents are, that’s who my grandparents were, and the countless of thousands of ancestors before them. That little piece of land in the middle of hell belongs to me and my people, and I will ALWAYS be welcome there, it’s my birth right to be welcome there, I’m part of that land as much as it is a part of me. The same cannot be said of France, England, the U.S., Iran, Lebanon, or any other place that we Armenians have been forced to scatter to as Diasporans. Yes, I will exist and walk along the guidelines of the social system I live in, the United States. However, simply because I live in the United States, France, Spain, or where ever else as a Diasporan DOES NOT mean that my American apple pie cannot co-exist next to my Dolma, or that I cannot find a beautiful Hye girl instead of an odar to make my wife in order to have beautiful Hye children that can speak Armenian AND English and thus propagate my long standing Hye heritage/lineage/tradition.

 

Your intentions are good but your approach is counter-productive in my opinion.

 

Although I must admit, had you not started this topic I would have hardly focused on it, at least not right now. And don't take my criticism as denial of all that you stand for, in fact I don't like criticizing.

 

So thanks for bringing up this topic and raising our awareness, and thanks for putting so much energy

Am I hallucinating or does anyone else see these three statements together as a potent sign of a productive effect via bringing topics to light and stirring critical thought rather than being "counter-productive"?

 

Well, after saying ALL that, it basically boils down to this ... you choose to define "your people" (aka Hye) by drawing some abstract imaginary line encompassing some abstract and imaginary group of people.

What is all this nonsense with “ ‘your people’ ” ? And of what people are YOU a part of Seaphan? Oh wait let me guess, you’re part of “the noble human race”. And last I checked Armenian culture was VERY tangible, VERY much present, VERY rich in culture, VERY in depth, and there is a body count of about 6.5 million to attest to these facts. That’s not exactly “abstract” or “imaginary” by any means. The title of “Armenian” will have more distinction, credibility, and concrete identity than the term “American” can EVER hope to have. And why is it that WHENEVER we talk about Armenianism it is so very “abstract” and “imaginary” but Americanism, Judaism, French, Italian, or any other culture is so much more “credible”? If you’re so eager to not be associated with the culture known as “Armenian”, which includes ALL sub-sets of Hyes (Parskahye, Lipanahye, Hayastanzi, etc), then you’re more than welcome to denounce it completely and stop beating around the bush about it.

 

 

The entire argument here basically boils down to where people want to draw that line that groups the people with some assigned responsibilities such as cultural preservation. Some go as far as drawing it simply around the globe (which you mock), and on the other extreme some go down to the lowest levels and draw lines around the barska-, lebanona-, america-, hayastanya- etc etc hyes (which you do not endorse).

People do not “draw lines” about lineage or culture, those lines have began at a point in time and have developed absolutely into distinct encompassing boundaries that define GROUPS of PEOPLE, we call these groups cultures/lineages/heritages. You don’t choose to be Japanese one minute and then Irish the next by redrawing "imaginary" lines. So please don’t be as naïve as to reduce the ideas of lineage, heritage, and distinct culture down to mere ideas of existentialism or some other mundane philosophical banter. What's next? You going to tell me that if a two ton tree doesn’t make a noise while falling, it does not in fact exist? Get serious man.

 

And yes, I WILL mock the line drawing around the globe by the media controllers. Because they are hypocrites, they dupe the general populace through pop-culture that we are all “one big happy family” and to “abandon your culture and join the human race”, but THEY THEMSELVES do not practice ANY of the things they preach. The lines that define Armenians, Irish, Jews, Africans, Italians, or any other culture are very distinct and VERY real, but pop-culture would have you believe otherwise, and many of you play right into their hands. Today being black is seen as being “cool”, 10 years from now it will be some other gimmick, and if ANY of you give in to these manipulations, WHERE will YOU be after you’ve gone through 3 or 4 gimmicks in your lifetime and abandoned your Armenian culture? You’ll be nothing, pure and simple. You’ll be “a human being” without any further identity beyond that and without any claims to any personal rights because you’re not part of any distinct group of people.

 

And yes I do not endorse the separation of Parskahyes, Lipanahyes, Hayastanzis , etc, because those lines have never concretely existed either; just like the way the lines of a globally encompassing “ human race” have never existed in the definite and distinct manner that cultural and heritage lines exist. If we define a sovereign state with its distinct group of people that are unique culturally from other cultures, such as a Frenchman, then REGARDLESS of where that Frenchman exists in a moment in time, he is STILL a Frenchman. He can be in Zimbabwe for all I care, that DOES NOT make him a person of Zimbabwean origin nor a Zimbabwean for that matter. For that very reason, the lines defining his French heritage are VERY real and distinct, but those defining his regional occupancy as “his culture” are false because they are not of his origin of lineage. Thus a Frenchman from France is the equivalent Frenchman in lineage, heritage, and culture as the one that has traveled to Zimbabwe. And on that same token, a Parskahye, Lipanahye, or Hayastanzi, are all ONE IN THE SAME. Yes it’s true we have been driven to different regions, but that DOES NOT mean we are now people of the region we have been driven to. I’m sorry to say, your sheer refusal to understand this very evident and blatant fact is mind bogglingly ignorant. You are the quintessential product of the media's attempt to globalize everyone, a by product of the media’s social “cookie cutter” manipulation.

 

 

Obviously barska-hyes and america-hyes have quite different cultures than Hayastanya-hyes and therefore, their responsibilities should be defined differently.

For example an America-hye cannot be expected to live up to the same "Armenianness" criteria as the Armenian in Hayastan. If you are not willing to acknowledge this, then you are a blind fanatic!

NO THEY DO NOT have "different cultures", you’ve just been brainwashed by your own social stigmas and Hayastanzi prejudices to believe this! Regardless of what type of Hye you are through dialect, YOU ARE STILL ARMENIAN of ARMENIAN CULTURE. How difficult is this for some of you to grasp and accept? We can categorize a Texan, New Yorker, and Californian under the banner of “American”; or an East and West German under the banner of “German”, but when it comes to Armenians, Parska-Hyes/America-Hyes are somehow of “different cultures” than Hayastana-Hyes? And if that’s the case, why on Earth do you refer to Armenia as “my homeland”? According to your logic, you are “of different culture”, and thus cannot lay claim to your homeland being Armenia.

 

And yes, the different Diasporans may have varying PERSONAL responsibilities due to the fact that we live in different economic and social systems in FOREIGN countries, I agree with you there Seaphan. BUT, simply because we live in FOREIGN countries and not our own, DOES NOT MEAN that our basic cultural/heritage responsibility to PRESERVE OURSELVES as a people should be abandoned. We can adapt ourselves to thrive in the different foreign systems in which we live in while at the same time, in our homes, maintaining the cultural roots, traditions, heritage, and lineage that makes us who we are. In essence, adaptation is possible and easily achieved WITHOUT sacrificing one's cultural roots and lineage. That means I can be a greedy capitalistic bastard AS WELL as a devout Armenian simultaneously. The Jews do this all the time and do it well. Not only that, they exploit the religious aspect of their lineage in order to annex more bodies into their collective via faith conversion, thus strengthening their statistical position on the globe. Though we do not have the benefit of Armenianism being a religion as well as a lineage, we can still apply similar motivations to strengthen our own position on the globe by preserving our heritage/lineage as much as possible through INDIVIDUAL effort!

 

 

But if you are willing to acknowledge this fact and yet you still choose to draw your abstract grouping line around "all hyes", then at least be humble enough to admit this ... that there is really no concrete thing as "hye" in this day and age that could encompass Armenia and Diaspora in any meaningful way.

Like I explained before, there is nothing “abstract” about the definitive lines of being Armenian, they are very real, youth like you has been brainwashed to believe otherwise by pop-culture. Sadly, the media has done SUCH a good job all these years while you were growing up, that you can’t even realize the brainwashing even when it’s dissected in front of your very eyes.

 

Furthermore, I have nothing to be humble about. My humility will not aid me in preserving the identity, rights, and heritage of Armenians. At best, “humility” will allow those that are not humble to manipulate me, control me through propaganda, and eventually wipe me off the face of this Earth as an Armenian. I am PROUD of my heritage, lineage, and my Armenian culture, and it is my pride, not my humility, that will ensure that I preserve my identity as a Hye male individual.

 

And yes, there is a “concrete” thing as a Hye in this day and age, I AM HIM, and you are too. But it’s just sad and a little pathetic to see how you try so very hard to try and convince yourself that we are some sort of blurred and distorted culture when we clearly are not, and have NEVER been. I don’t know why you try so hard to convince yourself of such things, but perhaps like some other Hyes, it’s simply to appease your own conscience for the guilt you feel for your lack of effort, some Hyes do this a lot. What disturbs me the most about Hyes like you is the fact that you’re so wrapped up in thinking that the “cultural grass” is so much more “greener” on the other side of the fence, when in fact it is not. That’s not too say that Armenians are superior in some fashion to others, but we are who we are, and I love everything about us, personally it makes me who I am and I don’t want to lose that rich culture I’ve grown up on. And there most CERTAINLY IS a definition to us, but those that think like you do would like to say that there is no definition just so that you can feel good about continuing to think that the grass is greener on the odar side of the cultural fence. However, as one dimensional as you tend to be, you don’t have the courage to fully ever take the leap onto the other side without a safety line to the Armenianism you irrelevantly claim is “blurred”. Instead, you just walk that cultural fence all the time and jump down to the side that suits you the most in different points in time.

 

 

As you have very appropriately put an Armenian should not be defined on what he does but rather the contrary.

And what is this contrary, you speak of? At the essence of every individual, including Armenian individuals, it’s not very important what one simply SAYS but what one actually DOES. Action is the most definite variable of any person or culture. I’m not a murderer until I actually PULL a trigger and blow your brains across pained glass. I’m not a saint until I actually PERFORM a miracle, I can talk about being saintly all day long, but until I pull off a miracle, I’m not a saint, just an elaborate speaker. By these very same notions, what WE DO culturally as Armenians, defines our heritage, lineage, and traditions. Yes, it is important to have beliefs and cultural passions mentally, but until we take the necessary steps to proliferate/preserve those beliefs and passions through ACTIONS, you cannot hope to define yourself through mere philosophical discussion and verbal claims. It’s easy to just “talk the cultural talk”, but you also have “walk the cultural walk” through actions of Armenian self-preservation, protecting the rights of Hyes, passing our Hye heritage to our children/youth, and using the sense of cultural pride as well as cultural belief to make sure that we survive as a people.

 

 

Hence (?) my viewpoint that by force we´ll never get there, but neither by the pen.

You’re absolutely right on that one, by neither pen nor force, but a little bit of both as well as an important third variable; culturally positive actions.

 

 

Well Boghos, you are one of the few that tempt me to write here

Don’t take this the wrong way, but that’s a pretty damn arrogant comment to say to everyone that reads or posts on these boards. I didn’t realize that you are so far above the rest of us that our merely mortal words only draw you out when you have absolutely nothing else to do and decide to grace us with your cosmic presence. Seriously, tone down the condescending socialite routine a little, we’re here to debate about important topics that affect us all, not swing our IQ testicles toward one another.

 

 

However, there is a long tradition in non-Armenian cultures of "kna merir, egur sirem"

While “kna merir, egur sirem” is fairly extremist, “kna ztulvir, egur sirem” is not much better, neither is “kna vochinch mi ara, egur sirem” for that matter.

 

I am sorry my reference to the carpet weaving orphans was too cryptic. There is a certain type of carpet which shows Armenia as a lady weeping looking at all the Armenian provinces around her on fire. This is the lady that has to be made to smile.

 

Less metaphors and personification type comments, more debate please. That is WAY too cryptic.

 

 

This thread has turned out great so far, lots of excellent debating by everyone, communication is key in such matters. Also a general message, if you are going to respond, at the very least dignify your responses by elaborating a bit more instead of trying to make a point with only one brash paragraph of criticism. Until next time, take care all.

 

 

-The Armenian Pirate

[Accelerated]

fek pirate! methinks you got too much free time on your hands! - this last post is the longest post I have ever seen I think.... Edited April 13, 2004 by Accelerated

[Boghos]

"Words of an intellectual will always be crushed under the heel of the couragous action taker."

 

I only now noticed Pirate´s motto. Interesting. I wonder if the words of an intellectual would also be crushed under the heel (is that some S&M fantasy or stormtrooper delirium ?) of a coward action taker (of which many are known to exist) ?

 

Good job Pirate, Armenia really needs people like you: cannon fodder.

[mx5]

great post and powerful words Pirate,

[TheArmenianPirate]

"Words of an intellectual will always be crushed under the heel of the couragous action taker."

 

I only now noticed Pirate´s motto. Interesting. I wonder if the words of an intellectual would also be crushed under the heel (is that some S&M fantasy or stormtrooper delirium ?) of a coward action taker (of which many are known to exist) ?

 

Good job Pirate, Armenia really needs people like you: cannon fodder.

 

THAT's RIGHT! God forbid the day I turn into a worthless intellectual that can only sit in the background and theorize about Armenian cultural plights VS actually doing something about it! I'm an educated person, but I'm no intellectual and I don't EVER want to be classified as one, intellectuals just know how to talk and talk, but none of them will do much to amount to even a fraction of what an Action Taker does. Hence an action taker will ALWAYS get things done and take the risks necessary to succeed thus overshadowing a pathetic nimwit intellectual socialite that only knows how to hypothesize about what "should be done" but never has the courage to actually do it himself.

 

There is nothing "cowardly" about taking action toward anything, I don't know what world you live in, but here on Earth, it's not what you say that matters, it's what you do that counts. An action taker will see an oppressed thirsty man suffering and will decide to give him water in order to quench that man's thirst regardless of the risk he must take. An intellectual will see that very same man in thirst, ignore him because he is too much of a coward to take the chance of getting the thirsty man some water. Instead, the intellectual will write a book about it later explaining how much the man "suffered" and how "tragic" it was, by that time that very same man has died of thirst and is long gone, and no amount of book writing will ever bring him back to life. That's what intellectuals are and they do nothing but write and talk, but never take action towards getting any goals achieved, hence actions takers will always be more important and far more relevant in this world.

 

And you know what Boghos, like I've said before, in everything I have written, I have not made personal attacks on anyone directly or indirectly. You insist on doing it over and over again, and your credibility just goes down further each time you resort to such tactics. I'm beginning to doubt that you're even 10 years my senior the way you claim to be. Stop with the insinuating personal attacks and grow up. You can't make your side of the debate any more relevant by resorting to ridicule tactics toward me and my character, so please just stop.