Armat Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I will be digesting this thread and brake some heads as soon as I start answering. Domino I am very happy you are back.Man , I must be in love or something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Indeed. I would say that it is precisely that humanity has focused too much on science and reason, and has neglected its spiritual side, and its faith, and the rejection of an authority, a God, above us, that destruction has risen exponentially. I completely disagree. I think the blind devotion advocated by religion has done, is doing, and WILL do a lot more harm that the potential short-sightedness and inaccuracy of science. I am sure everyone here is familiar with the Crusades and many other "holy" wars. When was the last time you heard of a "Newtonian Classical Physics War?" ... or even worse ... the "CMOS Battles"? Note that one cannot allow science to become religion for we know it is imperfect. The problem with religion is it's assumed to be correct!!! Oh what a BIG fat mistake that is. Even though ALL religions are concucted by humans, we still try so desparately to believe there is "perfection" embedded in there somewhere. We MUST also not allow our imaginative and poetic wishy washy sides to take over and rule our actions. I for one am one to advocate thinking before acting. Now whether you want to categorize that thought under the umbrella of "science" or "religion" it's your business but I am not going to start getting carried away with magical omnipotent beings and souls traveling from point to point with earth as their bath room break and multiple universes and ice cream truck driving aliens. All I know is every action I take in life has a consequence on my surroundings. I believe I am in control of my actions. Now the question I am faced with is what do I do next. The poetic ultra cool sounding rants are just that ... they make for nice conversation piece and the occasional pondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I completely disagree. I think the blind devotion advocated by religion has done, is doing, and WILL do a lot more harm that the potential short-sightedness and inaccuracy of science. I am sure everyone here is familiar with the Crusades and many other "holy" wars. When was the last time you heard of a "Newtonian Classical Physics War?" ... or even worse ... Yes exactly...much like my "Atheist Crusade" As you may or may not recall from several years ago (on another forum - shame..and likely long lost...) ah well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 one thing i've learned for sure is that: faith cannot be taught and too much critical thinking only leads to further ignorance!!! aaaah how finite the human brain! can't "analyze" our way through everything in life.... i'll make this bold statement: compared to the intelligence in the universe our brains are like slooooow DOS computers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 one thing i've learned for sure is that: faith cannot be taught and too much critical thinking only leads to further ignorance!!! aaaah how finite the human brain! can't "analyze" our way through everything in life.... i'll make this bold statement: compared to the intelligence in the universe our brains are like slooooow DOS computers.... Maybe DOS was slow, but it made you think moe.. AHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!! LOL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Ah here it is....this was from May 2000 BTW: I declare the Atheist Crusade Whereas adherents of monotheistic religions have blasphemed before the truth of the unknown cosmos and no valid proof of a human centered god is evidenced, their judgmental claims of knowledge of such a “creator” and “shepherd” of mankind constitute heresy and falsehood, Whereas, adherents of such belief deny any truth save that of their own making, and as such condemn and persecute all who believe otherwise, and thus have been and are clearly and proven responsible for most of the pain and bloodshed in the world (none of which, to the knowledge of the unbelievers, has ever been caused by us) - we therefore invoke a Crusade designed to oppose the monotheists and their heresies. Our motto(s) – “freedom from religious (self-inflicted) bondage for all humanity!” and “boy are you guys confused” and “lets put a stop to silly talk!” Our goal – to oppose imposition of monotheistic constraints on human thought and action and to promote greater understanding and tolerance in the world Our methods – severe waving of fingers and reprimands for overboard statements and behaviors (hey, we’re “humanists” we don’t believe in hurting folks or causing suffering – we leave that to the fanatical believers!) We just want to be left in peace. Let the crusade begin! Sign on now… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 never claimed to be a comp wiz gevo jan!! oh that was funny!!! but i think i made my point preeeeeeeeeeeeeettttty clear!! this i how i really feel about slow computers: i wanna pound them hard on the ground and then defenestrate them!!-- heee!! love that word!!-- (which is similar to what should be done with jerks and pimps and players and losers!!) ---beware of the wrath of bruin!! she might look sweet on the outside (aaahhh snow white)...but she's more of a scorpion on the inside!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I completely disagree. I think the blind devotion advocated by religion has done, is doing, and WILL do a lot more harm that the potential short-sightedness and inaccuracy of science. I am sure everyone here is familiar with the Crusades and many other "holy" wars. When was the last time you heard of a "Newtonian Classical Physics War?" ... or even worse ... the "CMOS Battles"? Note that one cannot allow science to become religion for we know it is imperfect. The problem with religion is it's assumed to be correct!!! Oh what a BIG fat mistake that is. Even though ALL religions are concucted by humans, we still try so desparately to believe there is "perfection" embedded in there somewhere. We MUST also not allow our imaginative and poetic wishy washy sides to take over and rule our actions. I for one am one to advocate thinking before acting. Now whether you want to categorize that thought under the umbrella of "science" or "religion" it's your business but I am not going to start getting carried away with magical omnipotent beings and souls traveling from point to point with earth as their bath room break and multiple universes and ice cream truck driving aliens. All I know is every action I take in life has a consequence on my surroundings. I believe I am in control of my actions. Now the question I am faced with is what do I do next. The poetic ultra cool sounding rants are just that ... they make for nice conversation piece and the occasional pondering. Fanaticism doesn't know any boundaries and will pervert science and religion. My post had nothing to do with it, but rather with getting in touch with mans spiritual side. Yes people could manipulate faith to do evil things, no different than people could manipulate science to do evil things, your point? Should we stop having faith because of that? Should we also stop research in science because of that? I dealt with the idea that there was a power above man, which humans for the most aprt have forgotten and have instead gone on the path toward making themselves Gods and in the process forgot that they are spiritual beings endowed with a soul by the creator. There is this saying. I turn to you, . . I poke you in the arm with my finger and I ask, "Is this your body?" You answer, "Yes." I then ask, "Well,.... if that's your body, WHAT are you?" The answer of course is something not of the physical, a spiritual being. You stating you "believe" you are in control of your actions is again displaying faith. We have faith that those who wrote history before us, did so accurately and not falsely. What I meant was that humans have forgotten that above all they are spiritual beings. The total rejection of all faith and belief would strike out a principle from human nature, which human nature is hopelessly tied to; man is a faithful creature. After all faith must flow out from some source within us when the evidence of that which we are to believe is not presented to our senses. If science and knowledge is the sun, belief is the man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I don't know why Bruin - but yoru post (and soem of te others here of late on this thread and elsewhere) made me think of this song...(my bold)..anyway enjoy...they also have some other very fine lyrics (if any are interested..) An Englishman in New York (Creme/Godley) Demented New York athletes staggering round the block Deforned Chicanos pour in, Chicago's rolling stock Digital bathrooms drilling for furs Surgical stockings marked his and hers Guggenheim attitudes back to back With Jewish Baroque No way street No way street Happy to see you, have a nice day! Defecting Russian dancers dance into Hockney prints Exclusive to Bloomingdales, gift-wrapped in red From the land of blue rinse They boggle at menus in Olde English verse "Ode to burger" by Keats at his worst The hissing of omelettes the breaking of legs Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eggs The pink fillet mignon looks black on the negs Strange apparatus You've never seen Strange apparatus, even stranger theme Street alligators Big Anglophile Will navigate us through a change of style I came, I saw, what manner of beast is this New York, you talk a little bit left of centre A scream, a shout New York is throwing its weight about Walk tall, walk straight, spit the world right in the eye The stranger the wood the straighter the arrow Dismembered hopeful My-Lai veterans queuing for sleaze "Sorry no dogs, no fags, no shriners, and no amputees" Sexual athlete applies for audition Willing to make it in any position Just one of the extras with blood on their faces In snow-white and the seven basket cases I'm happy and dopey and dirty in places No way street No way street Lock up your daughters, Avon crawling! Devoted collectors of paraphernalia out walking the rock Battle and bitch for the ultimate kitch of a crucifix clock Two miniature romans, running on rails Appear every hour and bang in the nails I've got to have it, Christ, I gotta be the first on our block Disturbing facts about Nazi splinter groups seen on the news They're picketing synagogues and claiming that Hitler was King of the Jews Caught in the tunnel an ambulance howls A men's room attendant is flapping his jowls Ssshh, Howard Johnson is moving his bowels Strange apparatus You've never seen Strange apparatus, even stranger theme Street alligators Big Anglophile Will navigate us through a change of style Strange apparatus You've never seen Strange apparatus, even stranger theme Walk straight, walk tall, spit the world right in the eye The stranger the wood, the straighter the arrow No way street No way street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 There is this saying. I turn to you, . . I poke you in the arm with my finger and I ask, "Is this your body?" You answer, "Yes." I then ask, "Well,.... if that's your body, WHAT are you?" The answer of course is something not of the physical, a spiritual being. I see no evidence of - nor can I concieve of a person being something beyond the chemical existences of the body...we very much are who we are because of our physical aspect...it is fundemental to who we are (but perhaps I would stop just short of completely deterministic of who we are...but to a large degree yes...think about this for a bit...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 eyyyyy winst!! you know just how to make me smile!! happy, dopey and dirty huh? you left out a couple of my other favorites dear!! bad bruin bad!!! it must be the weather up here!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I dealt with the idea that there was a power above man, which humans for the most aprt have forgotten and have instead gone on the path toward making themselves Gods and in the process forgot that they are spiritual beings endowed with a soul by the creator. This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. I don't think you can ever forget something that you didn't know to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I thought that this thread was about the theory of evolution and not once more the fight between two religion(theism and atheism). I will just refrain from posting untill the thread come back on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 eyyyyy winst!! you know just how to make me smile!! happy, dopey and dirty huh? you left out a couple of my other favorites dear!! bad bruin bad!!! it must be the weather up here!! Well lets just leave them to your (active and entirely sufficient) imagination...shall we! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I dealt with the idea that there was a power above man, which humans for the most aprt have forgotten and have instead gone on the path toward making themselves Gods and in the process forgot that they are spiritual beings endowed with a soul by the creator. So are you refereing to the Annukai here? And do you believe that they crafted man by corssing their genetics with that of te apes? etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Well lets just leave them to your (active and entirely sufficient) imagination...shall we! my dear thoth, my imagination is an abyss filled with creative elements....you must be down or something? ....wow!! never seen you this 'reserved' before!!! did you get your booty kicked by mods as well?? ohhhh!!! --- oh yeah!! gotta keep "on thread"!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. I don't think you can ever forget something that you didn't know to begin with. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wrong again! how do you explain amnesia? how about alzheimer's disease?? how about not remembering your dreams when you wake in the morning and throughout the day something joggs your memory and you remember fragments of your dreams the night before??? i think the saddest thing of all is that we have become so uber-arrogant as humans that we have forgotten where we come from: the light, and are made by that same light...that's why the word is called "enlightenment"---> "to know again that we are entities of the light, spiritual beings" thus the word "religion" ---> "to link back" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wrong again! how do you explain amnesia? how about alzheimer's disease?? how about not remembering your dreams when you wake in the morning and throughout the day something joggs your memory and you remember fragments of your dreams the night before??? How am I wrong? Isn't amnesia kind of like "loss of memory"? Like you knew something but then forget. What I am saying is that if you did not know it to begin with, then how can you forget it? I am referring to Anonymouse's claim that somehow used to know of this super power above us and now we have forgotten. I am saying no, we never knew such a thing to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I agree that we have (not all of us) forgoten our origin. However, it is not like a physical memory in the brain, in never was in the mind. Although one could argue that. If you remember something they you will realize that you had forgotten. But if you don't remember then you can be sure of neither. Anyway, my point is, what has been long known that humans are not bound by the physical. We have five natures/aspects of which physical is only one of them. Mind and memory are part of the physical aspects, so this knowledge of our spiritual nature does not originate from the physical mind, but from the other (non-physical) dimensions of the human being. Of course, once you realize it gets recorded in the physical memory as well and becomes a conscious thought or belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 So are you refereing to the Annukai here? And do you believe that they crafted man by corssing their genetics with that of te apes? etc etc That would be cool. Should we believe this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 How am I wrong? Isn't amnesia kind of like "loss of memory"? Like you knew something but then forget. What I am saying is that if you did not know it to begin with, then how can you forget it? I am referring to Anonymouse's claim that somehow used to know of this super power above us and now we have forgotten. I am saying no, we never knew such a thing to begin with. Perhaps the only evidence of our spiritual existence is our self consciousness and our free will. You cannot "know" this. Knowledge, or human intelligence is finite. You must feel this and faith. Two different realms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 We are all quite off topic by the way (plase read this smiley as a smiling guy holding the banner ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 How am I wrong? Isn't amnesia kind of like "loss of memory"? Like you knew something but then forget. What I am saying is that if you did not know it to begin with, then how can you forget it? I am referring to Anonymouse's claim that somehow used to know of this super power above us and now we have forgotten. I am saying no, we never knew such a thing to begin with. how do you know you didn't know it?? maybe you did and forgot!! isn't that just a possibility?? or a probability??? ---mouse is right!! and indeed i am glad to see younger people who have not lost touch with their spiritual side!! it really is heartwarming...i'm not talking about going to church or following rituals, necessarily! rather being connected with the cosmos and knowing that we are all interconnected in ways that intelligence would miserably fail to explain!! and indeed there is a creator and things did not just come to existence out of nothing! there's a driving force, a kind loving consciousness that set things in motion a long "time" ago (since time is relative on such big scale) and let US be in charge of what will come to follow!! hence FREE WILL!! he is not turning his back to us, rather he's waiting to see when we will turn our heads and our hearts towards him and accept his love... everyday our bodies are being bombarded with toxins and generate free radicals which cause cellular damage and turn on deadly cancer genes (oncognenes) yet we do not all develop cancer and succumb to it?? why?? because our bodies are designed in such a way as to always align us back to health, back to the way we were designed and meant to live....all the erratic cellular crosstalk between cells,signal transduction proteins, and scavenger molecules ultimately serve one purpose: to keep life going, to keep the organism going!! how is someone going to tell me that alllll that happens just by accident! that it's all coincidence?? i don't buy it because it does not make sense!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 how do you know you didn't know it?? maybe you did and forgot!! isn't that just a possibility?? or a probability??? Possibilities and probabilities are very different than certainties. If you read some of the posts above, you will see that not too many are willing to acknowledge (myself included) that there is a probability We all sound like we know exactly what we are talking about and that's just wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Possibilities and probabilities are very different than certainties. If you read some of the posts above, you will see that not too many are willing to acknowledge (myself included) that there is a probability We all sound like we know exactly what we are talking about and that's just wrong one thing's for sure!! there is no reality out there! only perception! and our perceptions shape our world!! so to each his own! believe as you may! we all are captains of our destiny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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