Dan Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Christmas day - the day Jesus was born... Churches disagree on the date - is it Dec. 25 or Jan. 6... how exactly do they know? Am I the only one who thinks it's absurd to argue about a difference by 12 days in the birthdate of someone you don't really know much about? What the hell? I mean -- does anyone else think it's just a political debate -- whoever gets to define the date of Jesus' birth would be the most influential, etc.? I don't know much about this -- but has it been really proven that Jesus existed and that he was born on Dec. 25? So what's the big deal about Dec. 25? And Jan. 6... Just wondering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Dan, Jesus was neither born Dec. 25, nor Jan 6, those dates are payen in orgin, Christians decided to celebrate a payen day at the same time as the payens to not be persecuted so it remained that way. I may be wrong, but this is what I have read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Yes, but they seem to wholeheartedly believe that Jesus was born that day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Yes, but they seem to wholeheartedly believe that Jesus was born that day... No, the Vatican know that Jesus was not born in Dec. 25, priest or religious figues knows that neither Dec. nor Jan was his birth date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 (edited) No, the Vatican know that Jesus was not born in Dec. 25, priest or religious figues knows that neither Dec. nor Jan was his birth date. Oh... hmm... weird... cos I've heard a lot of people argue about it.. actually, I think I read it somewhere - the divisions between the catholic and orthodox church -- something about that... hmmm... Edited December 19, 2003 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Yes what Domino has said is true... here is a pretty concise summary that someone wrote up http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Here's a thread about Jan 6/7 confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 more http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/pagan.htm http://www.literatureclassics.com/ancientp...zine/pagan.html (Christian sorece...mentions Jan 6 as day recognized by Armenians BTW) This one is a god one: http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/ dont miss this part - http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/borrowin...ng_started.html and from another wacky christian? perspective: http://www.therefinersfire.org/christmas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 k, thanks for the links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 ARMENIAN CHRISTMAS Why Armenians Celebrate Christmas on January 6th? "Armenian Christmas," as it is popularly called, is a culmination of celebrations of events related to Christ's Incarnation. Theophany or Epiphany (or Astvadz-a-haytnootyoon in Armenian) means "revelation of God," which is the central theme of the Christmas Season in the Armenian Church. During the "Armenian Christmas" season, the major events that are celebrated are the Nativity of Christ in Bethlehem and His Baptism in the River Jordan. The day of this major feast in the Armenian Church is January 6th. A ceremony called “Blessing of Water” is conducted in the Armenian Church to commemorate Christ’s Baptism. It is frequently asked as to why Armenians do not celebrate Christmas on December 25th with the rest of the world. Obviously, the exact date of Christ's birth has not been historically established—it is neither recorded in the Gospels. However, historically, all Christian churches celebrated Christ's birth on january 6th until the fourth century. According to Roman Catholic sources, the date was changed from January 6th to December 25th in order to override a pagan feast dedicated to the birth of the Sun which was celebrated on December 25th. At the time Christians used to continue their observance of these pagan festivities. In order to undermine and subdue this pagan practice, the church hierarchy designated December 25th as the official date of Christmas and January 6th as the feast of Epiphany. However, Armenia was not effected by this change for the simple fact that there were no such pagan practices in Armenia, on that date, and the fact that the Armenian Church was not a satellite of the Roman Church. Thus, remaining faithful to the traditions of their forefathers, Armenians have continued to celebrate Christmas on January 6th until today. In the Holy Land: January 18thIn the Holy Land, the Orthodox churches use the old calendar (which has a difference of twelve days) to determine the date of the religious feasts. Accordingly, the Armenians celebrate Christmas on January 18th and the Greek Orthodox celebrate on January 6th. On the day before Armenian Christmas, January 17th, the Armenian Patriarch together with the clergy and the faithful, travels from Jerusalem to the city of Bethlehem, to the Church of Nativity of Christ, were elaborate and colorful ceremonies take place. Outside, in the large square of the Church of Nativity, the Patriarch and his entourage are greeted by the Mayor of Bethlehem and City officials. A procession led by Armenian scouts and their band, advance the Patriarch into the Church of Nativity, while priests, seminarians and the faithful join in the sing of Armenian hymns. Afterwards, church services and ceremonies are conducted in the Cathedral of Nativity all night long and until the next day, January 18th. Why Christmas comes 11 days "late" in Armenia Most of the Christian world celebrates Christmas on December 25. But Armenia, the first nation to adopt Christianity as its State Religion (301), marks the birth of Christ on January 6. Why?The difference has deep roots, as explained by Arkadi Tandilian, cleric of the Holy See of Echmiadzin: "All Christians used to celebrate God's Appearance or birth of Christ on January 6. However in the 4th century A.D. the Roman Catholic Church decided to celebrate Christ's Birth on December 25 and Feast of the Epiphany (Christ's Baptism) on January 6."To explain the change: As far back as the Pagan period, December 25 was a gala day of celebrations, marking the birth of the Sun god, Mithra. In Europe, particularly in Rome, that celebration was a great ceremony, where numerous people participated. Now, the Vatican stands on a place that was once the center of the Roman celebration of Mithra's birth. When Christianity became the State Religion of Rome, measures were taken to rid society of all Pagan symbolism. "It was decided to celebrate Jesus' Birth on the same day when Mithra's birth was celebrated to be able to wipe Mithra from people's minds and to fix hope in the faith of Christ," says preceptor of divinity of Mkhitarian union Father Serob Chamulian. And only Armenians continue to celebrate Christmas on January 6, marking also the baptism of Jesus on that day. Armenians start to celebrate Christmas on the evening of January 5 with a candle-lighting Mass. Believers are encouraged to take burning candles to their homes to signify Jesus' invigorating fire. Despite the fact that those days New Year's tables are full of tasty and varied dishes, believers prefer to eat fish and vegetables and drink wine during supper after the candle Mass.On January 6, the ceremony of Water Sanctification takes place during Christmas Mass. Water Sanctification symbolizes Christ's Baptism. Huge basins full of water are placed on stage in a church. Then a cleric sanctifies that water by adding holy water. After the Water Sanctification ceremony, believers take the holy water home in bottles or vials. (Typically, there isn't enough water for everybody that day and an uncontrollable bustle takes place in churches among people waving soft-drink bottles toward the priests, trying to get their portion of holy water.) The water is believed to have miraculous powers. Believers drink the water, hoping for cures. They also pour the water in the corners of their homes as a way of exorcizing evil spirits and for other purposes. And this one is specially for Sip! http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/holiday/...ets/pastry.html http://jas.family.go.com/Family/cookbook.a...r=2000&month=11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 not much confusion about it.. If you are Orthodox, you go by the old calander and it is Jan 6th. If you are Catholic, you go by the new calander and it is Dec 25th. pretty much its what your religion is.. At least all us Christians belive in Christ.. Thats all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Speaking of Christmas and 25 vs. January 6th and all that I just had a thought! Why can’t we celebrate Dec. 25 on August 6th? Come and think of it, why can’t we treat every day out of the year as if it were Christmas, ha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 why can’t we treat every day out of the year as if it were Christmas that's cos you can't afford to buy presents every day... fact is, Christmas is only a commercial holiday... really -- have you seen a lot of Christians really go to church and pray, etc., and thank God for sending his son to earth ,etc. etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 That is what traditions are. I can start a brand new tradition since tomorrow. Like, going to work 15 minutes late . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Haven't checked out the links, but from what I remember, January 6th was his birth date and the Catholics wanted to obscure the December date which was celebrated among pagans as Saturnalia. Hence they did a little soaping off and you have the "12 days of Xmas"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=VAHE=- Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 (edited) I always wondered what the 12 days of christmas meant. really -- have you seen a lot of Christians really go to church and pray, etc Yes I have and if you live where I live they go by the freaking thousands. Go to any Glendale or LA Armenian Church and you'll see. I dont know how it is with you guys up in Canada but it's not like that over here buddy. Edited December 24, 2003 by Vahe G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 (edited) Yes I have and if you live where I live they go by the freaking thousands. Go to any Glendale or LA Armenian Church and you'll see. That's pretty sad, IMO... but then again, I'm an atheist... talk about sheep being fooled into following something without thinking... Edit: Just for the record, I meant --- going to church on the occasion of Christmas day wholeheartedly -- i.e. not out of duty, but out of true belief... Edited December 24, 2003 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayeforlife Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Merry Christmas my Armenian friends where ever you are and have a happy new year. please don´t drink and drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Merry Christmas to you too... for whatever day you celebrate it. please don´t drink and drive. that's what they have subways running longer for on Christmas day and New Year's Eve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 In my opinion~ it does not matter when jesus was born the only thing that matters in the idea behind christmas and that you celebrate it for what its for i dont think the "physical" factor of what exact date jesus was born sould not be the issue- if you truely believe in hjim you celebrate his birth every day of your life ~im not a big christian believer-i am christian and have my beliefs but im not too much into it-i think that it doesnt matter what religion you choose to practice- what matters is your morals and your jugement--humanity--theres always way too much conflict between reiligions and i think that the barrier between them needs to be broken because most religions have the same aspects--morals and rightousness-or whatever--i was born a christian so thats why i believe in it-im sure if i was born into a jewish family or a muslim one id believe in that particular religion--i havent experienced any proof of any of these religions so i cannot say either is better than the other or that one is right and the other wrong. The main difference is influences and regions people live in....there are exceptions but why do you think most countries in the middle east are islamic?because of influences and their mentality--of course armenia is an exceprion but why did the genocide occur?because armenia was the only christian nation in a populus islamic territory and the muslims wanted armenia to be islamic as well---i believe in what i was accustomed to but i will never try to impose my christian beliefs onto another religious group--everyone is different because god created them that way--------bottom ine is christmas shouldnt just be a celebration of giving gifts and getting drunk at dinner--but appreciating who you are being open minded and apreciating other people for their own individuality--maintaining peace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Yes, Domino Jesus was born on October 8, four years earlier than we consider. This was calculated by astronomers and by using the Hebrew holy days. December 25 or January 6 are variations of the calendar for the Roman Saturnalia, a pagan holiday. So is the date of Easter, the date of a pagan holiday. You have all been FOOLED. When are you going to become TRUE Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 When are you going to become TRUE Christians. When we all become Protestants, Circumsized, Bisexual, Half-educated, Half-Moronized, 'N' times divorced, paying 'N'child supports, eating plancton, and believing that the world turns around us. NO THANKS! Merry Christmas to you too, Mr. Khodja Hagarogovitch Jewashvili! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 (edited) There is no snow in much of the Northern Hemisphere in October. What's the fun in a hot and sweaty Xmas with gifts under a palm tree? Edited December 27, 2003 by Stormig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 I love Cristmas under a palm tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Hey Gamavor, I have only been divorced once. As my ex eliminated our prospective children through two abortions, I do not have any children to support. You would be surprised at the elaborate sumptuous vegan meals I enjoy. Do you consider Americanizaton to be MORONIZATION?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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