Attn: White Nationalists, Your History Theft

[Vayri7X]

STEALING OUR HISTORY

 

 

This is after reading the Armenian Origins and other messages with subvert or overt racism, jew-baiting, and scientific racism over the course of several months.

 

 

We got our "Legion Europas" linking, racist-eptihet spewing wanna be blonde-hair blue eyes, Aryan fantasizing, color-obsessed ("ooooh were we all lighter once" " dark armenians are not 'real 'armenians" -WTF???) , insignificant Coonist terms -spouting from debunked anthropology, anti-black, Orientalist dichotomizing ( levantine, anti-arab crap on here) chauvanists on this board.

 

From us a people who came out of genocide... and you put up with this crap? In the name of what? Can't see the similarity with PAn-Turanism? It goes under your radar? HELLO!? What... moderators too afraid of being called "PC" enough to let this board become a fascist haven??

 

People, there is no wrong in calling someone out on their BS. It takes a spine.

 

WEll,,, I was SHOT AT by neo-nazis and my Armenian family has been HARASSED by them - for being Armenians and seen as "dark foreigners". Not the only Armenian family either. Talk to the Armenians in the "jackal ward" in CA after teh INS round-up.

 

In your Europhile fawning , you are ignoring the needs of the Armenians in Iran, Iraq and other West Asian countries cause you are so desperate to be seen as "European" . I pity your internalized racism and self-hatred, as much as I am angered at the MASSACRE of our identities and histories , just so it can neatly fit into a NON-ARMENIAN DEFINED checkbox of "Race".

 

and here I do not even feel safe posting on this " armenians" board cus you people are TRYING TO STEAL MY HISTORY AND I TAKE IT VERY PERSONALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND I AM ARMENIAN!

 

you think you can seize some moral highground by co-opting the genocide into your white nationalist writings .because some of our homeland is near the Caucasus. Ignorants. And now some Armenians buy it, wanting to Eurify themselves. I have seen it, and see it here. The thefy of our tragedy to bolster white nationalist writing. In Duke's writings, the so-called LEgion Europa, Stormfront pages. I lived in the South in the US, and I so I have had close contact with your likes. I know your schemes, and how you like to COLONIZE OTHER PEOPLES IDENTITIES AS MUCH AS YOU COLONIZE THEIR LANDS!

 

I never thought I would have to deal with this $% here.

 

Now we got insecure, right-wing Armenians , as desperate and fawning to accepted as Europeans as any Turk! Mart.. this same mentality you'd use if "Central Asian" was associated with superiority. You'd be desperately trying to refashion yourself as "central asian" instead of Near Eastern.

All of this Europhile crap *completely* ERASES the COMPLEXITY of our experience and STEALS our history as a people whose history was around WAY BEFORE anyone decided to divide the world up into West, Middle EAst and East !

 

I would like to write something more substantial , but I am too angry and disappointed after reading the "Armenian Origins".

 

AND GUESS WHAT FOR YOU BIOLOGICAL DETERMINISTS??

There is an inherited disease called FMF- Familial Medittereanean FEver. The only people who can inherit it are " Arabs, Armenians, Jews from the Middle EAst (like it or not).

 

So take your white pride/white nationalist history -colonizing, slave mentality ( as in inferiority complex) and go to Stormfornt or some other knuckle-dragging, pseudo-intellectual racist forum. If you're a light-skinned Armenian conned into this, you're delusional. Just turn your back, and you'll get jacked ... And for the white nationalists, I hope you all get as jacked up as your did in Jersey.

 

 

Armenian. From a family of full-blooded, 100% "SWARTHY" Armenians and PROUD OF IT !!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

And, I know this is gonna turn into some "censorship" discussion. Well.. I take the THEFT of our HISTORY SERIOUSLY!

 

Edit done by Sasun

[TashnagZinvor]

..... I'm as much for the Armenian cause as Mapple Syrup is to Pancakes. Who ever said I was attempting acceptance by Europeans? I am a geneologist major, not a social major, I could care less what the majority of uneducated people think. I simply state what I have studied and what is proven to be fact by archaeological findings and human studies. If in any case you dont beleive in the practices of modern Science, refrane from using medication or anything else it has provided you with, and see how you enjoy your lifestyle. My struggle, is for my race, be it different from yours, is a struggle opposing what is considered racially acceptable. Lets be honest, Whites are outnumbered, are non-whites are whats in, Blacks are in the Media and in Music, and the White man is being racially ridicueled and persecuted. You are a very proud person, of what I have no clue? What logic are you trying to convery with your dispersed statements? The fever you speak of is just as common in Eskimos and Germans. It is inherittant of AS19 DNA allele, found in all populants of Eurasia and North Africa. Regroup your thoughts, and tell me what your trying to tell me, the white supremacist, Armenian hating? anti-arab??????????? Whuhh? Who dat Dawg?

 

I am a depigmented Armenian. I dont know what more I can say to an obviously eastern armenian, judging by you claiming to be swarthy and hated on by whites. I am just as Armenian in lineage as any other. My racial classification and Western Armenian herritage are nothing for you to judge nor attempt to humiliate.

 

Edited by Sasun

Edited December 15, 2003 by Sasun

[THOTH]

I think your pretty clueless regarding Vayri's very well articualted points. Its unfortunate that there are Armenians like you who equate Armenian pride as something akin to white nationalism - or like any other race based xenophobic approach - much as the Turks with their self-delusions and the Germans and others. The point is - that those of us who have suffered from such should see the folly of it. I'm so saddened that there are Armenians like you who have totally failed to lern the lessons of our peoples suffering (at the hands of those who thought much as you do). We should be the first to embrace others and see the commonality of the human condition. And we should understand the meaningless of these categorizations (and worse - the great harm) that you hang so much credence on. I certainly can't at all fathom it - regardless.

 

Oh and BTW - FMF (as well as related [?] iron defficiency complexes) are unique to Armenians, Arabs and certain Jews....and are found among no other populations as far as I am aware (and perhaps Turks now...but we should all understand the whys to this)

 

And Vayri - a very impressive post - here here! - well said and well thought- kudos!

Edited December 15, 2003 by Sasun

[Vayri7X]

This is necessarily long for your edification . And for anyone else who stumbles on like racist/fascist tripe. For long, I've watched, read and held back here and I don't see these views much represented so openly as often. I urge you to read and think. I put it in English, because most of what I am talking about has been typed in English by these people. For all my hyes globally, I 've stated my reasons for referring often to the history of the Americas ( globalism).

 

To those who think I am "over reacting": ALOT of people do not know what an Armenian is, who we are , what our cultural values are., etc. The Net is a constant site for self-education. Alot of people may want to come here and be excluded because of the following attitudes I will point out.Especially; people of color, or Armenians who are mixed with non -Euros, have relatives who are, identify as such (POC), or who are not into racism, fascism or chauvanism. Or, we can have this board overrun - unchallenged - with racists, fascists and identity thieves. Let them say- and I will say too. Do you want this- a high traffic board- to be our face to those who are educating themselves about us ? Is this what you want to educate people with - without a challenge?

 

So take a deep breath, grab that baklava, bat your eyes -and read and think on this.

 

 

 

 

Intro on Position

 

Due to the fact that multilingual resources exist where you can educate yourself past 19th century versions of debunked racialist science, I will not engage in "point-by-point" debate, nor point out naturalist fallacies , logical implausibles and the like. I'm conveying content more than form. What you have said has consequence within as well as beyond "Armenian origins" or "racial identity".

 

Being that I am up to date on theory past the 19th century I employ a post-Comtian and non-positivist tone. In other words, I do not assume omniscience of perspective with the idea that I am removed from the social constructs and social reality of which I speak. I own my part in the production, construction and challenge of social reality. On being post-Comtian, I am not, however, an orthodox relativist or structural -determinist. Thoughts have their counterpart in action -i.e., praxis , theory+ action- and I recognize the importance of what may normally be thought of as abstract , intellectual masturbation. Some forget to ask themselves : " What are the 'power relations' behind this social fact? Who constructed it? Who benefits? Who doesn't? What is the history of this bit of "common sense" /"social fact"?'

 

Moreover, simply because I will tell you in this letter that certain social "facts" are socially constructed does *not* mean that they do not have real world implications and consequences. Nor does it mean that I am a postmodernist anti-science type; I value scientific knowledge, so long as it is indeed "scientific", while I retain the right -as any critical thinker ought - to question the consequences of specific scientific knowledge being applied in varied social contexts.

 

Yet, I see no reason to bleed these statements of subjective or colloquial indicators of my strong positionally rooted perspectives (just to appease someones outmoded and unrealisitic idea of aloof 'rationality'). Sheer objectivity is old hash. Everything has an agenda , or subjectivity if you like, whether explicit or implicit. As the brilliant social scientist Pierre Bourdieu once pointed out, if it seems like a purportedly objective stance, it is simply upholding the status quo, - for good or ill. Valueing honesty as I do, I ( an *Armenian* woman) choose to be explicit in coming from a subjective and informed positionality of anti-racism and anti-fascism. Strong statements, such as I've observed here, deserve strong responses.

 

That said. To the pseudo-scientific k$k I have witnessed on numeous occasions in these threads and others I say the following.

 

 

Teuton you wrote:

 

Wherever you go the definition for Armenoid is a swarthy, hook nosed ugly mongrel freak.

Therefore most Armenians are Meds with an insignificant so called "Armenoid" minority that came into petty existence through admixture with Arabs, Iranians & Asiatics

 

I will not reply to you,as you have already been outed. I will say it is relatively amusing, and proves my point of the conditionality of whiteness for Armenians , that you called another white-identified racist TashnagZinvor " swarthy " and "hook-nosed" re: " Or is that too much to ask for from a swarthy hook nosed so called "Armenoid –teuton

 

[u]WARNING TO ALL HYES WHEN RESEARCHING RACE/ETHNIC IDENTITY ET AL!

 

Anyone who comes across strings of terms like Meds, Dinaric, Alpine, Armenoid, that is not in an outdated science reference, with a preponderance of terms such as "hook-nosed" and "swarthy" be extremely cautious. This is the discourse and the key words (especially that "meds' term) of a strain of "white nationalism". It is fascist , no matter what PR they try. Even the Ku Klux Klan is undergoing a PR redo.

 

Their goal ( the 'Legion Europa' types ) is the attempt to co-opt all non-African and non-East Asian ( and Indigenous, Polynesian, Austro-Pacific, you get the idea) peoples as a fascist bulwark against what they term "mud people". They believe themselves generous by trying to include us to bolster their numbers of so-called "white people". This is not merely an abstract excercise. Fascism is on the rise, and has led to real , live violence ( bombings, lynchings, desecrations, shootings, firebombings) against so-called "non-white" people everywhere from the Americas -including S. America -to Western and Eastern Europe. This includes Armenians for those who don't include "Meds" in their schema. If you value the suffering our ancestors went through in the name of Pan-Turanism, right-wing ethno-nationalism , and ethnically/racially motivated genocide, you will be on your guard and fight complicity with such ideologies.

 

And-to put it bluntly

 

 

THESE TERMS ARE NOT SCIENTIFICALLY ACCEPTED BY ANTHROPOLOGISTS!

THESE TERMS ARE OUTDATED AND DEBUNKED!

 

Please PLEASE see updated , legitimate anthropology sites ( <--- coming from an anthropology graduate)

 

You, T(ESH)nagZinvor, wrote:

 

 

Its no wonder your people are hated at such a level that people in America and Russia consider you "nigger-like". Tashnagtytyamp, MER HOGHERUH MER HOGHERUH (NOT IMPLYING EASTERN ARMENIA), you have yours, we have ours"

 

And also : funny that there are also those who are extremely dark, whome do not have armenoid, dinaric, or nordic features, that claim to be armenian, yet look more like east indians/arabids/irano-afghans (i would say are Gypsies), that have overwhelmingly replaced armenoids with mongrels

 

 

 

Well , even if I pass I guess I'm just another churkie eh? Cause my Armenian family is and dark (and lovely, BTW). Wow. Can you spell *internalized racism*??

 

And guess what ? The *only* reason you get to declare yourself "White" is because of racism against African-Americans. White ONLY exits as a historic pole against BLACK- And this is relatively new! Read " How the Irish Became White" for more on the ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCTION OF WHITENESS, WHICH NONETHELESS HAS REAL-WORLD CONSEQUENCES , ALA JASPER, TEXAS !!!! Or Amadou Diallo etc. etc ad nauseum.

 

The whole dichotomy of race (while moving slowly away from the dichotomy thanks to anti-racist organizing and science), is is predicated upon an export of global whiteness. And as you may know ( or obviously don't) , it doesn't work everywhere. ASK THE "CHURKIES"/chyerniyess OF KRASNODAR !

 

Armenians and other Middle Easterners in the US had to go to COURT TWICE to be considered white 1909 and the 1920's. Armenians, Lebanese, Arabs and so forth were often stuck by the Jim Crow laws in the South , as they were thought to be "colored" or mulattoes or yellow #$%.( yeah-j/o- Middle Eastern does not equal Muslim. You can claim your Christian identity , progressive identity and so forth and be Middle Eastern. LEVANTINE DOES NOT BACKWARDS MAKE! Nor does Muslim-there are progressive strains like any other religion. If you buy that Orientalist bunk - read some Said, a Palestinian Christian - think again , or dismiss a good part of your history)

 

No, jaan- YOU are the one who needs a little education. You should know the history of "whiteness", its construction, and the implications of it before claiming it as an identity. Before you go into a variation of the "white massacre".

 

If it were not for the Civil Rights Movement by Blacks in the US opening the door of not just tolerance but celebration of ethnic identities and the political and social capital to challenge discrimination, then there might be very well have been even less left of Armenian culture in certain Western countries. And yeah, ironically, the Black/Brown/Yellow "power" movements had the effect of Euroamericans discovering/being more open about *their* ethnic heritages- sometimes inclusive and sometimes exclusive. Without that historical occurance of challenging institutionalized "white-as-norm" racism, many Armenians would have been too ashamed of being anything but Anglo ( and MANY WERE/ARE) and be more hell-bent on scrambling for those little white privilege cards even more than some are now!

 

Why is it that the ANCA , and Armenian orgs in France and elsewhere are working with African-American organizations on issues of reparations from Life insurance companies for the genocide? Do you think that this political capital would have *even* been available for us Armenians to bring to the table without the headway made by the Civil Rights struggle? Hmmm? I don't think so.

 

That movement- and that of other sev-ish ppl like in India's anti-colonial struggle - revolutionized and gave hope to millions of people worldwide to find healthy acceptance of their identities and challenge various forms of oppressions & colonialisms ( hello Melkonian!) -be it British, French, Russian , Turk, or whatever. Also, East European people derived alot from that Civl Rights movement- the tactics, the discourse and so on ( Polish Solidarity movement? HELLO?)

 

And as far as how hegemonic notions of "whiteness" could have further acted to erase Armenian culture without the Civil Rights Movement , or our conditional "whiteness "being predicated upon static blackness , What about outmarriage? The fear of cultural loss and assimilation ? Which has had the most power in the history of the West where so many Armenian diasporas are? "White" as norm or "black" as norm? If you cite tokenistic media inclusion, then you are blind to power structures. Who has the institutional power to back-up the notion of normality, that "white" = the normal and default and everything else is "ethnic" or Other? So for immigrants to be "just normal" means " just white" ? Boy F$%in howdy!!! Anything to "whiten up"! And well, you say - that's very centered on America. WELL GUESS WHO'S DOMINANT CULTURAL VALUES HAVE BEEN GLOBALIZED?

 

If it weren't for the Blacks , who you so obviously disparage , the legal mechanisms wouldn't be in place to protect your ASS! After 9-11, alot of uneducated people of Western/Eastern European descent ( white identified folks ) might have just LYNCHED YOU! AND IN FACT, MANY ARMENIANS HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF HATE-CRIMES & PROFILING AFTER 9-11, including my uncles, father and grandfather.

 

HOW CAN YOU COLLABORATE IN FASCIST RACISM WHEN ARMENIANS ARE CALLED "BLACKS" ( as are other "caucasians"-how funny) IN RUSSIA AND HARASSED/ASSAULTED?

 

DO YOU HATE YOURSELF SO MUCH? AND YOUR MOTHERS?

maybe YOU look white, - and you obviously have felt pressured to identify as such, forcibly white-washed, it seems- BUT ARE YOU SURE EVERYONE ON YOUR ANCESTRAL LINE DID? I doubt it. Honor your ancestors. I honor all mine, whatever their melanin content. Can you say the same?

 

 

 

and

"get racism from Hayastancis yes, calling me white boy, odar, and this and that. However I will always feel at home with the true Armenians, my Armenians"

 

And you said that Hayastan was full of" Gypsy Jews", and "a shithole" that you wouldn't go to.

 

Well. It is obvious to me that you are most likely either one of these two ;

 

 

 

1.) You are a white supremacist/nationalist /pan (fascist)-European masking as an Armenian . Hayeren doesn't matter. Although an educated fascist seems an oxymoron, it is feasible (and I know of some and *who you are*) for those obsessed with the so-called " race war" to learn a little Armenian. "Now you too can co-opt a history of oppression and make it appear that the so-called " white man" is under siege by claiming your very own "genocide"™!!" By stealing our history ! Yay for more theft!! Our lands lost, our people- not enough! Now our very history up for grabs for the ends to which our ancestors died even ! Pretty perverse, when you look at the history of the Tasmanians (not one left), Native Americans ( google "Ishi" if u dare), Africans, Tainos and (too) many others all subject to a certain type of genocide predicated upon notions of "racial superiority" originating with a privileged class in Europe. Not satisfied, you grab OTHERS! I have seen this co-option of the Armenian genocide on the Hatewatch site's monitoring of white power sites. It is becoming a trend for these White Power sites to cite the Armenian genocide to garner political capital.

 

I WON'T HAVE ANYONE HIJACK AND RIP-OFF THE TRAGEDY AND PAIN OF MY FAMILY & OTHERS , GOT IT?? I HAVE HAD IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Or maybe....

 

2.) You are as you described yourself- a "depigmented Armenian". As such, being that many are people of color, you have developed an insecurity . To compensate for this insecurity, you have mistakenly and tragically taken up the banner of "white supremacy", and have chosen to rewrite the history of Armenia with this in mind. If it is what is has always appeared that -if we take an outdated Western scientific notion of race- that we are multi-racial ad multi-ethnic even by your convoluted standards, then your attempt to wipe out the diversity of our history by focusing on the European elements of our cross-roads culture alone MAKES YOU COMPLICIT IN THE GENOCIDE!

 

You remind me of some older Algerians I've talked to , who , under the rule of the French became haters of their own complex culture and Francophiles so that they could garner acceptance ( i.e., "get cookies") by certain racist French people and the colonizers. It gave them access to certain things as being a token-and a collaborator.It is a slavish mentality.

 

It is one based upon the tragedy of internalizing colonization and viewing yourself through the eyes of a dominant power conceived as the norm. Please read some Paolo Freir or Frantz Fanon for an excellent foray into this. In your case, you would be suffering in a Fanonian sense from a "White Mask" phenomena. The mask that you wear becomes you. In which case, you read as "white", and as such, have internalized it to an extreme in order to compensate for your feelings of insecurity about Eastern elements of your heritage. Look, there is nothing to be ashamed of. You need not see the world divided into two halves ( the "Orientalist" paradox) where Eastern= backwards, dark, inferior, "exotic"/savage, religious oppression and Western = forwards, light, superior, normal, secular. I know it's hard, especially nowadays, to resist that Manichaen and dualist thinking, but you'll benefit if you try. If you don't, you sell out on facetsof our history valuable beyond anyones bianry designations.

 

In the Freirian sense, since you have a history of oppression, when you try liberate yourself and reclaim your dignity and subjectivity outside of " victimhood" ( a problematic basis of identity, I know) , the main model you have as a " free agent" from victimhood is that of the perceived powerful. So , you adopt, construct and internalize *that* identity as a sign that you are free and dignified- a powerful superior, "civilized" man as opposed to a victimized minority. However, when others around you remind you of that experience of "victim" ( the perceived role of the "inferior" or "powerless") you resort to hatred/racism/fascism as a method to distance yourself to retain your feeling of power and superiority. You " blame the victim" as it were. Whatever degree of fact-finding or intellectual glossing you engage in to uphold your superior-ized indentity, you have simply reversed the scientific method . Meaning you go from an answer to the question and not the reverse.

 

I.e., you

 

1.) start with the assumption/wish that Armenians are the "pure Whites, Aryans" whatever, which makes you feel powerful and superior. and then

 

2.) go a -hunting for facts to prove this. History, Armenian history, fallacious geneaology, debunked Carleton Coon anthropology or that BS " human race calculator" site, photos from that other joke " Legion Europa" where you cut, paste and proceed to apply outdated science to your "specimens" ( how dehumanizing-teh exact clap-trap the nazis did and do.. in fact, where a lot of that data comes from)

 

& when you find evidence to the contrary , or are confronted with the reality of (gasp!) swarthy, Armenians or evidence of "non-euro/"white" genetics , culture et cetera you simply

 

3.) denounce them as non-Armenians.

 

WALLAH! Armenian Aryan Superman Fantasy Accomplished!!

 

 

 

 

I am sorry that your marginalization and alienation- if what you said is true, than it's a real shame-, has led you to this.[and despite my dislike of you, I am sincerely sorry that you have felt outcast or "odar-ified"[/i] - IMNSHO, white supremacy is more of a threat to Armenian culture, as we are continually being white-washed and made invisible by a racist power structure based on the inability to recognize peope for their own designations and force them into little boxes from a tripartite racial classification system that anthropolgists and scientists declare "unscientific". If we wanna be "accepted" we're all like " Armenians in Eastern Europe - blah, blah! Yeah ,and so is our neighbor Iran where alot of us historically have been. When's Syria gonna be in the EU? Cilicia? Hello?

 

Of course there will be some confusion. My god, just the geographic designation has put us in Southwest Asia, Near East, Middle East, Russian Empire, West Asia, Caucasia, Transcaucasia and the most recent "Eastern Europe" - who hye would not be confused in a world constructed as E/W or on a racially false tripartite scale? And a designation of Western Europeans ( ala "whites") as Caucasian created by a horny Blumenbach guy who thought that because Georgian women were hot that the Caucasus was where all "white" people came from ? ( <-- true story. Look it up in anthropological history. )

 

Of course.. BUT THIS? And who, pray tell, helped define the pressures of assimilation, of hegemony? Who defined the rules of the game since the rise of mercantalism and capitalism in Europe and engaged in the colonization of the world? It sure wasn't Africans , Indians, Asians (Ok. Japan colonized Korea, and there's probs with the Ainu) or Armenians! And it was only a privileged , if influential, percentile of the colonizers native homelands who produced these demarcations.

 

What, first they get to sell out my homeland by having the power to define the borders and treaties AND NOW I'M SUPPOSED TO LET THIS SAME STRUCTURE DEFINE ME? HELL no!

 

But guess what? You , and other fascists, aren't gonna come into these spaces without a fight. I've had to do it before, in more than one way & with the scars to prove it , and I won't shirk this to let you engage in theft.

 

I won't have it so that if some poor alienated Armo kid in , say, Florida is having understandable confusion over his/her racial-ethnic identity, that it's THIS crap that s/he sees... That you use to recruit him/her or your "Legion Europa", your "Stormfront", CHS , AYF , World Church of the Creator, Christian Identity, Aryan identity or other WP 88 psycho crap.! There are ALOT of alienated hye kids out there, and for many of them , their only Armenian historical education is online or distant, even if their families are newly arrived . Or there are those who live under extreme pressure or ignorance who feel forced to identify in a certain way and the dominant culture doesn't allow them much room in the little racial check-boxes when they come to a country that has them-or even those who have been in such countries for generations! And I have seen this happen. And I have seen what happens to those Armo kids when they go offline ( like in FLA) and those WP ( white power) types see him and thinks " swarthy, hook-nosed, covert Jew/sand#$. A visit to the emergency room and dealing with people like you make me not tolerate you in the name of " free speech". Guess what? Free speech is two ways. This is my response and my statements. Deal.

 

I REFUSE to be idle, and stand -aside so that I can so-called "not judge or humiliate" you when your entire ideology is based on the humiliation, ERASURE, massacre and domination of others.

 

Your humiliation is based on self-humilation and hatred. Break the boxes and depose of your internalized colonizers! (If ) you are hye- than #@$%ammit- you are hye! why allow others to define?

 

Don't *even* try to co-opt a liberal arguement ( "don't judge" blather) by assuming that I am a wushy liberal who values all opinions alike with equal measure and has no backbone in the attempt to be "colorblind" - a simple refusal to acknowledge power structures and their historical productions? Or that I am being "reverse racist " NONSENSE! racism functions with an institutional structure to back its embeddedness, those who don't have the institutional power to enforce it- i.e, people of color in US and the West and other people in other places and times- cannot be considered 'practicing racist' without that power to enforce and legitimate it --- but reactionary or prejudiced yeah. Wanna talk science? Know thy social science, Mr. geneologist, since you and others are so apt to throw it around. This distinction *is* sociological and anthropological by assessing praxis. And as far as engaging in prejudice, well some people got long memories, and let's not kid ourselves about ours- ]) .

 

We talk about the genocide and our need to have it recognized - and restitution and reparation---even though it was ( Hamidian massacres, late 19th c.) and early 20th c. 1915-20's ( the physical part). I don't consider it that long ago, and debate with others who say " that was long ago; irrelevant,etc". Time is culturally conditioned. And yet, in many Western countries such as the US, it was only the 1960's ( and even late 70's considering COINTELPRO actions against Civil rights Groups) that enforced apartheid prevailed. Then in the 80's and 90's we saw a massive retrenchment to the Right and the rise of neo-fascism and the likes. What kind of window for forgetting is that? A couple of years to celebrate some progress before the backlash began? And the legacy is with us still. Many of our parent lived this s%^t for gods sakes and others in many other parts of the world with similar circumstances - how can there be so-called reverse racism yet- or the "besieged state : of " the white man" as you like to think?

 

De-colonize yourself, please.

Sincerely ,

Azat and De-colonizing.

 

 

 

P.s. to other readers.

And for the record.

 

a)I think we Armenians are indigenous to Armenia and the former territories. I think acknowledging our *friendly* neighbors and social exchanges is a strength, and not a weakness. It shows our roots, not the opposite. The closest I'll come to chauvanism in jest is the idea that those with similar genes came from us, not vice versa .Hmmm

 

B)I don't believe the Aryan hype. It wasn't a concept then. I don't buy it, or the colorism that people have been spewing. It devalues and adds to assimilationist pressure and problems for Armenians of all hues. Educate yourselves on the history and implications of this term. Sorry- it'll be a looooong while before that ( or the article on usanogh which celebrated the swasticka with attendant anti-sev bashing) is a viable, unproblematic term detangled from its history. So, someone says "aryoon", aryan, blah-blah- Don't kid yourselves- You KNOW what this means in historical context. We have ALOT to be proud of that isn't defined by some non-auchthonous ideology with such baggage. Let's celebrate THAT!

 

c) My stance on race et al. Because of all the disparaging explicit and implicit anti-Sev comments, and "Gypsy" & "Jew "comments going unchallenged, I gotta say this.

 

I think it's pretty $%ed up that some Armenians (esp. like in the Americas or Europe, and elswhere with the globalism of Am. culture ) haven't examined their anti-sev attitudes, conscious and unconscious. One one hand, some hate on them . On the other, some engage in identity theft (thuggin) while STILL spewing anti-sev nonsense !! Like I said in the post, the only reason some hyes get to check that white box if chosen , and the only reason hyes get white privilege, is because of structural functions of racism embedded in an increasingly transnational culture based on anti-blackness. You say you can't see it? Well,that is a "privilege" you *don't* have to see it, even as it works to normalize white-as-norm or you benefit from. I will concrete examples later.

 

 

 

D) I am pro-progressive Jew, but Anti-Zionist, as I have ample evidence to believe that Zionism has led to the brutal colonization and oppression of other people-Palestinians ( of all stripes- Arab, Greek, etc). As an hye woman, I'm nervous about the transfer idea in the Israeli government and this apartheid wall- the whole nakbaa shebang. Sucks to be the victim of the victims, and the oppressed become the oppressor. Sorry- Israel's tanks , army, nukes and WMD against a people w/o an army? Death is death, bombings or no, and Zionists have the power of a recognized state behind them. Plus, the first intifada was intially tax-strikes and so forth. People forget. Also, as one Jewish intellectual put it a Zionist or a "court jew" and jewish identity on the whoare not the same ( Finkelstein, Chomsky, etc).

 

And I am really sick of the jew-baiting ( moshe this and that- what does that prove?) It's one thing to be critical of Zionism as a unique racist structure ( I've seen those effect *up close*). It is quite another to put *all* Jews into the category of Zionists, or even not try to critically understand why the hell it seems appealing to a people with a history of exclusions and pogroms. You should know that many of ya'lls arguements on cabals, banker's influence, and jewish conspiracy are lifted straight outta white supremacist Turner Diaries and related nonsense. When you do this, it makes it *very* hard for people to legitimately critique an apartheid state without being complict in anti-jewish crap. Or for Jews to be against it without being forced to ally with ppl who they can't trust or w/o being called " self-hating Jews". Or for Palestinians not to bite a bait not made by them ( they didn't make the Shoah- why pay for it?) It also causes thinking Jews to retrench and not consider the harm of Zionism and the Israeli state policy to Palestinians or themselves.( consider Adam Shapiro, or the actions ADL) .

 

 

E.) I am pro-Rroma rights (so-called " Gypies") and wish they would get reparations for the Porrajmos (Romani word for Holocaust). I also think that hating on them in our unique hye way is discouraging our multi-ethnic history in Armenia. It turns out that after the migration from Northern India, there were three splits _ Rroma (europe) , Doma/Domari ( lower middle East) and the Loma /Bosa ( in Armenia-just Armenia ). Guess whose language-Lomavren- is dying and whose culture goes entirely undocumented? Especially after you know what? I know Armenians are uneasy about being called " Gypsies" ( an ethnic slur in itself). It implies that we are not indigenous to our homeland. But *must* we adopt the puerile hatred so commonly seen in Russia and elsewhere in Europe against " tsiganskii" /chyernii ( esp. as alot of us are called that) just to prove to some ignorants or Turks that we are indigenous to our homeland? Aren't we better than that?

 

 

Can't we pull ourselves up without having to step on the backs of other people?

 

 

Power and the matrice of domination operates by unspoken assumptions. They 'go without saying because they come without saying'. It is when these unspoken assumptions, say about race, class, gender or other social structures come into question that power is revealed and hence, challenged.

 

Edited by Sasun

Edited December 15, 2003 by Sasun

[THOTH]

Wow Vayri...again impressive. (and I did read it all...but certainly will reread it again and let it absorb). I can concur with all you have wrotten here BTW...and I am also very supportive of your passion on these issues. Having come accross these Armenain racist types of whom you speak - and being shocked by their existance - that I had not even really suspected (as such..sur ethe old school Armenian racisim - which is bad enough)...but this new breed...so sad realy...and so misguided...and potentially harmful to us...

 

Again Kudos...now lets see the fireworks begin...though I can see you are fully prepared for all of it...

[Vayri7X]

Oh. And Teuton.

 

For your : " lol if only you weren't a dashnak and stopped calling hook nosed swarthy freaks Armenian you would get along with my White Armenian nationalist friends quite well. "

....

This ( now banned) guy at least , I can understand where his dilemma is and I am seein the source of it with the likes of your inchoate discourse.

 

Didn't you say before that you were not Armenian?

 

.....

 

Who are YOU to be telling ANYONE here who IS and WHO IS NOT ARMENIAN?

 

Oh, and dear moderator. If I get banned for flaming,so be it. I think it should be understood that when inflammatory remarks such as this ( and soooooooo many others) are made, they will get an inflammatory response. "Free speech" is not a unidirectional imperative used to say " Hey ! you're bein (PC, whatEVAH) and quashin my right to be a bigot, so shut up and take it" NO. Free-speech equals free response.

 

Edited by Sasun

[Dan]

We got our "Legion Europas" linking, racist-eptihet spewing (tash, teuton) wanna be blonde-hair blue eyes, Aryan fantasizing, color-obsessed ("ooooh were we all lighter once" " dark armenians are not 'real 'armenians" -WTF???) , insignificant Coonist terms -spouting from debunked anthropology, anti-black, Orientalist dichotomizing ( levantine, anti-arab crap on here) #$%ing chauvanists on this board.

Vayri, not to sound that I'm talking against you (I think you make some valid points, actually - well said), I've encountered more racist dark Armenians who REALLY HATE lighter-skinned, blonde-haired, blue/green-eyed Armenians and think they are traitors to our national "image" of the sevachya aghchig/degha.... Really.... I don't really care about looks or eye colour or skin colour, but that's something I've come across on many many occasions. Yeah, there are stupid materialistic people out there who are odaramol, etc. etc., but the majority of cases I've encountered, it was the other way around.

 

moderators too afraid of being called "PC" enough to let this board become a fascist haven??

this board is far from being fascist... ok? really... try talking against Jews and you will see what I mean.... or try saying something fascist and see where that will get you...

 

and here I do not even feel safe posting on this " armenians" board cus you people are TRYING TO STEAL MY HISTORY AND I TAKE IT VERY PERSONALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND I AM ARMENIAN!

I don't get it - who is trying to steal your history and how? I admit I don't actually read the history forum, as my interests and knowledge are not in that area... but I don't think anyone is actually trying to steal anyone else's history - we are all Armenians and we have, more or less, the same or similar histories... skin/hair/eye colour do not change history... so no need to get so personal about it, unless someone really offended you directly, I suppose..

 

After 9-11, alot of uneducated people of Western/Eastern European descent ( white identified folks ) might have just LYNCHED YOU! AND IN FACT, MANY ARMENIANS HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF HATE-CRIMES & PROFILING AFTER 9-11

Actually - no, no, and no. Armenians who don't have Middle-Eastern passports or birth certificates have not been profiled or targeted. As much as I hate the U.$ policies... - those guys are defending their own country and people (including many Armenians like yourself) from terrorist attacks (and I understand why they would make sure every person from those places is profiled in detail)... Hey, I am as white as anyone could be, and green-eyed too (the qualities you obviously hate so much, because apparently you think they are the marks of racism, fascism, neo-Nazism, and the so-called white nationalism), and I was interviewed for hours and hours, done a background check on, etc. just to get a tourist visa to the States to go and see my grandparents........ so please, do try to see the matter from both sides, not just from YOUR side.. cos believe me, I can bring you tons of examples of black hatred of whites, even MORE than white hatred of blacks.. it's about time that you stop yelling foul play and racism every time someone says something you disagree with, and then say the same racist things yourself (reverse racism).. you know, as much as I am for equal rights and all that, affirmative action in racism doesn't work.. OK? So don't justify your racism by saying "it is only to offset the white nationalists' racism", cos believe me, I've seen thousands of people with that mentality, and believe me, if everyone did that, we would be in the 3rd world war, or maybe by now the 4th world war..

 

Yes, there are racist Armenians, yes, there are racist Jews, yes there are racist blacks, yes there are racist Americans, and that's no news.

...

 

I am as pro-Jewish, pro-Armenian, pro-equal-rights as can be, but what is fallacious is fallacious, there's no denying that. I don't claim to know who you're referring to in your post about the white nationalists on this board, but believe me, you have NOT YET seen REAL white nationalists.. Moreover, to say that this board is FULL OF fascists is a bit of a stretch (one or two people do not make up this board and don't speak on behalf of everyone) - so next time, before you raise hell for "those damn bastard white nationalists who are taking over this board", do take a look at previous arguments and who's who and what's what - because I can tell you that there are more pro-Jewish, anti-racist people on here than there are fascist or white nationalists.

 

This is not meant to be an attack on you, simply on some of your arguments. I respect you ..., not only as a fellow Armenian, but as a fellow human being. I might not approve of all your actions and all your words (there's something called opinions, you know), but I respect them. And let's not step on each other's feet.

 

Just my 2 white nationalist cents,

 

Dan, the white nationalist (also known as the green-eyed, light-skinned neo-Nazi fascist)

 

Edited by Sasun

Edited December 15, 2003 by Sasun

[Dan]

Hey ! you're bein (PC, whatEVAH) and quashin my right to be a bigot, so shut up and take it" NO. Free-speech equals free response.

What is PC, if I may ask? Progressive Conservative (talk about oxymorons, eh...)? or? what?

 

And Vayri, here's the definition of bigot (ATTN: not for educational purposes, check a dictionary for that ):

 

BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain.

 

Edited December 15, 2003 by Dan

[Vayri7X]

Jaan, you certainly have misread what I have said. As far as white nationalists being here , they have said as much.

 

You might read this as snarky. Consider it honest.

 

As far as Armenians not being targetted on appearance post 9-11- honey, you are in Canada, right? I am in the States. I am speaking from _experience_ . I have worked with folks who interviewed Armenians after the INS registrations.. Armenians from Iran, Lebanon, Iraq and so forth. This is a fact.

 

You did not read my *repeated* statements of respecting EVERY component of our hues, regions and so forth - every component. Like I said, I respect all my ancestors, with all degree of melanin. And I don't shy away from our formerly designated "near eastern" lands. Re: bunk Orientalism.

 

This does not negate the history of white supremacy in the Americas, or the global exporting of it. In the lawbooks, in the methods of founding the country, in popular imagery and culture, in science ad infinitum. I adjure you , please, please read history *widely*. A good one, that includes the Armenian genocide as central , is A Little Matter of Genocide by Ward Churchill. As I have noted,it is possible that you do not recognize these structures ( in Canda also) because you do not have to contend with it every day. Then again, maybe - if you think about it- you can relate.

 

Metaphorically: How much stuff do straight-people ( and those who pass) not notice that contribute to homophobia -that they do not have to notice. This is what is sociologically defined as "privilege". Don't get defensive. This is not just about an individual thing- it is, as I have mentioned- a structural or systemic component in conditioned by history. But it is an individual thing to be honest about history and your individual role in perpetuating or challenging that structure.

 

I am hoping to contribute to these ongoing debates by introducing elements for thought. I.e., thinking about the role of history, structural functions of domination and their histories, *who* gets to define borders and boundaries of land and identity and HOW it came to be, looking at power structures, considering the role of various "privileges" , what are the implications of our various identities in a time of flux, and so on. Yes, they may seem passionate to you, but they are far from being ill-thought.

 

Just as others have been vocal about say, certain strands of homphobism...and others about their feminism..or existential views. and yet others have been vocal about " jews, @#$grs, mongrels, hook-nose" and their White nationalist friends, so I am vocal about what I perceive to be ( and many antoher hye) the redefinition of our history, which if you look it up, is being used to further a political agenda ( "white" fascist nationalism) which endorses genocide and ethnic cleansing. How, after getting out into the streets and experiencing what you have, can you endorse this? Complexion, eye-color i.e. whatever? How? Tell me how you , a descendant of genocide survivors, can endorse such a vision?

 

Tell me a little about the politics of aboriginal self-determination in Canada, and then we can discuss this reverse racism. My cuz is up there , and has much to say on this, as do Metis and other people who experience it.

 

As to my not knowing a fascist? Or a "white nationalist"? I lived a long -time in the US south. I've gone head-to-head with the likes of Metzger, Hale , Christopher Broskii of Dallas ( in jail for murder of a black man)ala Confederate Hammerskins, Aryan Strike Force, the Florida KKK and many another form of fascist. Why do you think I know the various twists and turns of their arguements? I have seen the result.

 

I was raised also around largely Native American towns, so I am quite familiar with the ethnic cleansing these folks have experienced. I do not turn a blind eye to this, as I am on their ancestral lands- so are you for that matter. So when you can't hear out of your right ear after having your eardrums blown by Nevada Neo-Nazis because your family is Armenians perceived as " dune coons" ( and in-married relatives are Iranian, Arab,Whites, Koreans, Indians and Blacks) then we can also discuss your new-found and flippant white nationalism.

 

With respect -if heated, I'm sure you get why now, I hope,

Vayri7X

Edited by Sasun

Edited December 15, 2003 by Sasun

[Vayri7X]

Oh. & BTW. The comments about " not everybody seeing the way your do" et al, is quite trivilializing and silencing. And the box? Jaan- I was railing against boxes and *for* the ability for Armenians to identitfy however! Notice the repeated,, multi-racial/ethnic aspects. ANd I never said the board WAS overrun w/ fascists.. but there are obvious ones ( straight-up id'd) and there are some here, which i indicated , and also indicated their comments and WHY i wrote that. and inevitably, unchallenged racialised discourse (i.e., unidirectional).

 

Nontheless, here is an interesting list of things to think about. Yeah, race is a social construct, but as is obvious, one with real world implications. Some here can undoubtedly answer could answer yes to these, some no , some eh? . How's that for complicating notions of Armenian identity? (FUN!) But these are interesting things to think about, no matter how significant *or* mundane ( daily/ banal) they seem. Experience adds up. And you define however you identify your "race". Have a go at it! A real kicker for hyes in many of the western diasporas I've found.

 

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

 

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

 

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

 

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

 

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

 

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

 

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

 

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

 

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece . ??

 

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

 

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

 

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

 

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

 

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

 

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

 

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

 

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

 

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

 

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

 

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

 

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

 

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

 

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

 

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

 

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

 

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

 

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

 

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

 

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

 

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

 

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

 

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

 

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

 

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

 

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

 

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

 

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

 

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

 

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

 

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

 

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

 

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

 

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

 

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

 

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

 

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

 

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

 

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

 

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

 

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

[Stormig]

I thought FMF was also carried by Turks and Cypriots (Turkish and Greek), but I may be wrong. Too lazy to do a web search.

[Dan]

As far as Armenians not being targetted on appearance post 9-11- honey, you are in Canada, right? I am in the States. I am speaking from _experience_ . I have worked with folks who interviewed Armenians after the INS registrations.. Armenians from Iran, Lebanon, Iraq and so forth. This is a fact.

Please... I have more than a hundred relatives in the States (some of whom recently moved, some of them have been there for more than a decade), and none of them were targeted... So don't tell me I don't know what's going on - I may be in Canada, but I talk to them about things like that every day... the fact that Armenians from Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, etc. were targetted does not mean that it was a racist, anti-Armenian thing - it is simply procedure. Like I said, my birth certificate is not even Lebanese, and just cos I've lived there before I was asked questions about involvement in any terrorist org's etc. You are simply misinterpreting what was done and is being done. I am not defending the policies of the U.S government..

 

This does not negate the history of white supremacy in the Americas, or the global exporting of it.

The history of white supremacy in the Americas does not reflect the current state of affairs. As it stands right now, there are more Indians, Arabs, Chinese, etc. who immigrate to the States and Canada than there are Europeans.. In fact, Europeans with PhDs have been and are being rejected entry, and instead, poor old Chinese and Indian people are being given immigration status........

Doing everything and then saying that you're being targetted because you're a minority. It's like black people who have guns and are drug dealers, and when cops target them, they say they were targetted cos they were black. Well, call me racist or whatever, but I think it's a load of B.S. this minority crap. And you know what - I'm sick of it - be it about sexual minorities or whatever. *I* have been denied status in Canada (a country that according to you might be dominated by white racists), whereas an illiterate chinese and jamaican became citizens, under the title of "skilled worker"... how does THAT reflect racism and white nationalism? Face it - there isn't half the racism you claim there is in U.S.A or Canada, because if you look at facts and figures, those people who claim they are minorities come to the country, do NOT even learn the language, respect the culture and practices (a lot of them are homophobes, etc.) and then collapse on the government and get social welfare from MY tax money... whereas *I* have no right to work even though I want & need to, they are lazy bums who do not want to work, even though they are legally allowed to.. so enough is enough. don't talk about racism when you are blind to all the good will of the government - yes, the land was taken over from the Natives, but such is life, people lose their lands, and now you have to respect the current people's views, instead of using their money and saying they are racists when that white nationalist's money goes to feed a lot of lazy bums like the jamaicans who steal, rape, and kill. And yes, the crime rates in both the States and Canada show that your so-called ethnic minorities (esp. jamaicans) commit more crimes than white people do... so next time you claim that the country you live in is white supremacist, think about the safety and security of people who live there - think about how many lives those people have ruined, and think about how many people are STILL being brought from those countries, despite those facts, and how many of them would've died of poverty in their own countries and now enjoy the benefits of social housing and welfare..

 

As I have noted,it is possible that you do not recognize these structures ( in Canda also) because you do not have to contend with it every day. Then again, maybe - if you think about it- you can relate.

and no, i am not claiming that all black or ethnic minorities are criminals. i don't hate black people or anyone else. in fact, i've participated in as many anti-war, anti-U.S.policy, anti-police-brutality&racialprofiling demos as there were.. i've interacted with the chinese, jamaican, jewish, arab, indian, aboriginal, white, and so on.. God knows how many days i've spent unable to talk (sore throat, etc.) cos of chanting anti-war and anti-racist slogans for hours and hours, and marching side by side with the chinese, black, etc. under the heavy rain and freezing cold (-15 Celsius) in the middle of February..

 

As to my not knowing a fascist? Or a "white nationalist"? I lived a long -time in the US south. I've gone head-to-head with the likes of Metzger, Hale , Christopher Broskii of Dallas ( in jail for murder of a black man)ala Confederate Hammerskins, Aryan Strike Force, the Florida KKK and many another form of fascist. Why do you think I know the various twists and turns of their arguements? I have seen the result.

Yes, there are fascists and white nationalists out there, no denying that, i've seen a lot of them actually, i can even tell from the way they dress and talk - but that's not the point - the point is, you are accusing people on this board of being white nationalists, and like you can't tolerate one person's white supremacist views, i don't think i can tolerate your accusations which have no bases (i.e. this board is full of fascists)..

 

I was raised also around largely Native American towns, so I am quite familiar with the ethnic cleansing these folks have experienced. I do not turn a blind eye to this, as I am on their ancestral lands- so are you for that matter. So when you can't hear out of your right ear after having your eardrums blown by Nevada Neo-Nazis because your family is Armenians perceived as " dune coons" ( and in-married relatives are Iranian, Arab,Whites, Koreans, Indians and Blacks) then we can also discuss your new-found and flippant white nationalism.

yes yes.. I know a lot of Native people, and I feel their pain for their lands, however, what is done is done, and believe it or not, aboriginal people over here are VERY much respected and given privileges even (affirmative action for women, aboriginals, and visible minorities). and please, you are talking about people who are intolerant, yet you are as intolerant of them as they are of you. i am not defending them or attacking you - just trying to be objective. but what makes you think YOUR intolerance is right, and theirs is wrong? you are intolerant of their type of people, and they are intolerant of your type. so live and let live. ok? there are more anti-racist people than there are racist people, and that IS a fact. otherwise, you wouldn't be living right now... or you would be in a nazi state.. so thank your white supremacist americans for saving the world from nazism.. at the same time, don't demand from them that they wipe out neo-nazis, because freedom is freedom for ALL, as you said... if you read my past replies (especially in the Meet the U.S. thread and the other News threads and Communist threads), you may come up with contradictory remarks by me - but I am trying to see both sides of it, and defend the rights of both. because otherwise, i would be a hypocrite. yeah, i think there's racism in the States and Canada, but i think there's as much reverse racism... ok? so don't use the fallacious argument of "they have a history of racism" because that's irrelevant. what we're talking about is HERE and NOW.

 

and there is a difference between rights and privileges. you are demanding privileges. welcome to the real world. you may get your rights, but you are in no position to demand privileges. so tomorrow morning when you go to work, think about the hundreds of WHITE people who have no jobs.. think about the chinese people who have social housing and the white people who have none and sleep on the sidewalks.. think about what YOU have, and what others DON'T.. think about how many white people have been killed by your fellow-dark-skinned Turks... think about how many people have been killed in islamic crusades, instead of only bringing the example of how many millions perished under the christian crusades... think about how many WHITE people were killed in Pearl Harbour by Japs... think about how many WHITE Americans were killed to defend the country that has given you so much freedom and so many opportunities.. talking is way too easy, arguing is even easier, being blind is the easiest.. so try not to be blind. try to see the other side. try not to flame people for their beliefs, and try not to generalize... with all due respect.. i am sick of this demand for privileges. you want rights, you have them. you want equality, you have it. but don't demand special treatment, cos there is nothing that pisses me off more than that (including the queer people who demand that , and don't even try to bring in the argument of homophobia, cos i think it's a load of B.S. - the definition of homophobia as it stands right now is: those who do not approve of the homo lifestyle - well duh, not everyone agrees and not everyone will... so deal with it, live and let live, without forcing others to love you for your sexuality and say yes, you are hundred percent right, deary, go on practiciing homo sex- not gonna go there, cos that's off-topic anyway)..

 

Edited by Sasun

[Vayri7X]

To All: This is in the history section. I think it benefits us to be critical and questioning of all histories, even if I was *expressedly* directing my first post at specific people for a specific reason., without assuming or even meaning to intimate a broad-based allegation. Just to posit the following, should others feel that they have a choice to be critical and not shut-down immediately by lop-sided allegations.

 

Sigh. If only your arguements were less typical and banal. I'll post for edification, but you will *clearly* see this as a case of my "disagreeing" and not shutting-up when you ( ignoring the issue at hand) decided to trivialize what I posted and make this personal. I was addressing * specific* racists. You began with accusing me of crying "racism" when someone disagrees with me. This is patently projection on your part, as you grafting onto me what you have initiated.

 

 

Your mass generalizations and *thin* reading of my posts, which I explained clearly to be inclusive of "white" people, speaks for itself.

 

You speak out of two mouths, and have chosen the polarization. And when the dominant paradigm of polarity affects you ( or doesn't) you choose not to see it.

 

On one hand, you avow your in-the-streets commitment. Huzzah.

On the other, you broadly paint a brush and CHOOSE to dichotomize race by pathologizing races and criminalizing them while asking me to think of WHITE ( your caps) people as victims. You claim a critique of the present power structure in the U.S., yet imply that I am "anti-American" (white Americans dying againt to fight off NAzis -guess there are limits to freedom, ask the blacks who fought nad dies, yet lived under segregation during WWII.. also , white Americans out of jobs b/c of : lazy" _insert your various ethnic designations here that you mentioned_ immigrants. ....

 

Meanwhile there is a whole body of evidence under both your hands, that you aren't looking at. I have stated it repeatedly. Those things are not just for this particular case, but are handly tools in general for critique. Regarding: Who ? Why?What? When/ History? benefits? Power? structure? faults? etc.

 

Simply because I choose to question how race came to be, who defines it, challenge , those who wish to coercively appropriate my and others history, to challenge those who put it in fixed and exclusive terms and the FACT that it is ARBITRARILY DEFINED AND CONDITIONAL you have chosen ( when not even addressed to you , unless you are sympatico, in which case, get a spine and take a stand) to utterly decontextualize. Iam questionizing the ESSENTIALIST AND REDUCTIONIST CATEGORIZATIONS by those specified in my posts, who I quoted, which leave NO ROOM for interpretation which is necessary given our complex history,as both you and I and others illustrate. I argue that Armenian identity(ies), given our wonderfully various history, should be inclusive enough to incorporate a whole slew of identities while maintaining our links, unity. A hard sell, but worth it, especially considering assimilation to ( whatever).

 

I have my opinions on what constitues via my social experience and knowledges, facets of erasure to our history. You- feeling like you've been cast in a certain way - obviously feel there are others. So be it. But all life is dialogic and doesn't go without its counterpoints. As such, I value some elements of what you say even as I find them very indicative of what I have said and am saying.

 

The statement that on that question of "white" , how it came to be, who constructed it, etc... leaves wide berth (_for those who can_) to CHOOSE THEIR OWN DEFINITIONS inasmuch as they are able! No . I have obviously indicated - even in my first post about the positive aspects of the Civil Rights and similar movements- for European peoples, that I think that ignoring the ethnic diversity of European/East European peoples is part of the inital root of the issue, and also problematic, erasing, invalidating and helps perpetuate certain simplistic and unscientific designations of race. I will also stake that the issue exists in a dichotomy, and is incredibly polarized, which you have simply proven .

 

If you would have read my posts carefully, you would notice that I put " white" in quotation marks. This indicates that it is *contested* and more related to "power" - being the high weirdness that is involved as to has or has not been classified as such ( and linked, who has or has not been constituted as "of color' by certain social systems) than biological actuality.

 

 

I ask you to reflect on institutional structures of power in whatever fashion you so choose. To reflect, and step outside of your own shoes as much as you can ( X)..

 

Instead, you have chosen to disregard the information- take statements out of context ( hey - those weren't intended for you. If you would have READ the threads like you said you *haven't,* then you'd Know what I was talking about and not decontextualize my statements in the fashion that you did!)

 

Next a little excursion into pure semantics and condescending defintions re " bigot"

 

Well, I think that discussions like these are a perfect case of "trying to sit on two -chosen-horses with one ass".

 

Moreover, it is not my problem that you are unwilling to take a critical look at the history of *now* and various ideas on how we got to now ( which is fundamentally historical) that is *not* from your own perspective without baiting me. It's an incredibly expanding view to try to think of past that. Guess what ? Alot of people have to do that *Everyday*. And live by more than just an intellectual excercise.

 

On not dealing with history, well.. ironic.. you did not just sprout out of Athena's head with no historical trajectory.

 

....

you know, I find that people who have not examined their unassumed ideas on the dynamics or workings of power &/or privilege &or/ race ( class gender all that ) sure DO get whack and offer little constructive information* besides puerile and easily available but intellectually empty accusations of " eeew- you're a racist for even bringing up counter-arguements! don't remind us of the nasties! no *you're* a bigot" - no *you-are*" . Bleh. Even the racist I addressed I tried to insert some *actual intellectual capital* into the debate . Thusfar, alot of the intelelctual capital on like discussions has gone unchallenged - so there it was, Fanon < bourdieu, Freire, social sciene and the like.

 

And the jobs statement:

 

Oh, and were you at the FTAA in Quebec? Familiar with the logic of "cheap labor" from "third world" nations? Effects of neo-liberal globalization from above, structural adjustment policies, former WB president Joseph Stiglitz' statements on the effects of the IMF/WB? and forms of privatization of basic natural resources?

 

Every cracked a book on labor history to see how structural faults such as racism and colonialism ( in various forms- check out my orig . statement on The Japanese and Koreans) has been used to divide the international middle and working-classes ( and hey- not a marxist, just a realist, so no red-baiting) against each other? Been to a maquila , a sweatshop talked to organizers.. got their line on how it goes down? Talked to Longshoremen on the coasts? Disenfranchised white , blue -collar workers in former steel or factory towns? or textile workers in Karachi ? Armenians in the garment industry?

 

Observe:

 

I.e., " Hey,,,got a problem with your wages? It's not the bosses or capitalists/( or specific profiteers for you pro-capitalist armos) who are the root- noooo it's those damn Chinese/ Jamaicans/Mexicans/Egyptians/Indians/Poles/Irish>women "taking your jobs!"

 

" Hey , techie, outsourced to India? WE execs don't benefit- blame the Indians!"

 

don't collectively organize, don't form ties of solidarity. don't see your commonalities of interest or recognoize your unique needs in difference.. nooo

 

 

"Ohh,, your manufacturing job gonna move south to Mexican maquiladora where they're paid less than half what you get with no workers rights/ability to organize/safety/benefits? It's not the transnational corporations or " free trade "policies that line the pockets of the rich...noooo.. it's those darn pesky Mexicans for having the gall to be so poor and moved outta the country when TNCs changed Article 22 of their constitution so corporations could buy their farm and send them streaming to the borders of US and Canda!!

 

Not the "Free-Trade" agreement in Jordan, or the IMF fallout in Egypt. Not *structural adjustment policies* at all! It's those @#$ing the Egyptians.. nooo- it's those damn Egytpians!!"

 

 

For more- see what's up in Argentina.

Edited by Sasun

[Vayri7X]

And CHECK: .. I am not assuming ( read those posts carefully) that all that I have said reflects the global realities of ALL Armenians. The instances I quote are particularized at the same time that they ( said histories and paradigms) are subject to being globalized. Read my disqualifier.

 

In that post it said that certain things were being articulated about Armenians origins & racial ethnic identity ( and the use of our history for dubious ends)exclusively and reductively against the wide-range of Armenians. Whether you identify first as Hayatanci B/Parskahye, Amerig/kahye "_insert what you want _hye" in any global location / as Eurasian/white/ of color/Other/Mixed/Asiatic/European/West Asian/Hyebird... if you act reductively, then various communites are discounted and added to coercive assimialtion.

 

And yeah.. if you're gonna claim a fascist heritage-with all those implications for a people who experienced genocide- why be surprised when you hear counter-arguements/ get challenged on it?

[Dan]

.... sorry to say this, but you are blind to what is going on around the world. wake up and stop blaming others for your lack of certain things... and get a lesson in history (without boasting like you're doing now) about WWII, Nazism, and neo-Nazism, before saying that everyone on this forum is fascist.

 

Other than that, I don't have much to say..

 

Oh, and try not to get on the offensive side when you're defending yourself.. that's what you've done and are doing throughout this thread. I suggest you try a neo-Nazi forum, at least then your claims would apply..

 

Edited by Sasun

[THOTH]

Dan - I really think you are missing the point completely...and why would you assume that she is addressing everyone in the forum...has everyone expressed or condoned racial supremiscist views? Or do you really not care - but are looking to just pick an argument with someone new?...and for one who crys about name calling and such ...I mean come now - not only do I not see this at all - but quite the opposite...

 

Edited by Sasun

[Vayri7X]

FOR THE RECORD AS ANY PERSON CAN PLAINLY SEE:

 

 

1) I never accused this of being a fascist forum. I pointed my threads *specificially*, and made my position clear, unlike some ( Sorry for your inability to read complex statements.)

 

2) Again. The posts, as they stated, were directed at certain threads. And I quoted them....

 

3) If anyone wants to critically think_as most of us are fortunately are wont to do here _about Armenian identities in all their wonderful complexities in the homeland and the diaspora, the history of their construction or even *gasp* the political implications of such things be they negative or positive cases, I am all game.

 

And yeah. The armenian history threads on the whole Balkan-Thracian origin and its various meanings and interpretations was WONDERFUL and what I'd expect from a quality group like those on this board

 

Edited by Sasun

[Yeznig]

This truly is an amazing debate. Living far removed from the Armenian community in LA I had no idea that such passionate debates flare and flame.

 

I must say I feel very proud to know that there are Armenians out there who oppose racism, who recognise the historic bonds that link Armenians to the oppressed peoples of the world and who have a healthy rejectionist attitude to the Behemoth of which the head is the USA.

 

I do not regard myself as European in any sense (that is not to say of course that Europe has produced nothing good). But when talking about Eureopean in a broad defining sense I go along with Franz Fanon:

 

'When I search for Man in the technique and the style of Europe, I see only a sucession of negations of Man, and an avalanche of Murders.'

 

In this context where I European I would tear up this 'birthright'.

 

BTW Naturally I would use the term Man/Woman. Fanon was a man of his time.

 

As for the oppressed of the world and what they dream and aspire for, whether they be the poor, the oppressed Palestinian, the abused Armenian or anyone else from the world that is the world of the majority of this earth again Fanon says it for me:

 

'Now the fellah, the unemployed man, the starving native do not lay claim to the truth; they do not SAY that they represent the truth, for they ARE the truth.'

 

More power to the elbows of those Armenians who believe that one can only be proud Armenian when in the company of the majority of the world, in the company of those who are despised by the Behemoth. In their company we will one day, as Missak Medzarentz said, enter the 'the night that flows like the infinite sea to the shores of our dreams.'

[Dan]

Dan - I really think you are missing the point completely...and why would you assume that she is addressing everyone in the forum...has everyone expressed or condoned racial supremiscist views? Or do you really not care - but are looking to just pick an argument with someone new?...and for one who crys about name calling and such ...I mean come now - not only do I not see this at all - but quite the opposite...

 

THOTH, I was not the one who was being offensive.. on the contrary - she was the one who started with the swearing and calling white people Aryan fantasizers, anti-black, anti-arab fascist chauvinists.. methinks she really needs to let out the anger in some other way, other than attacking people for their beliefs, and moreover generalizing about the forum being a fascist one... she also contradicts herself by saying that we are anti-arab, pro-jewish neo-nazis... well guess what, nazis are not pro-jewish, so that's the #1 mistake and assumption that is based on her faulty knowledge...

 

We got our "Legion Europas" linking, racist-eptihet spewing  wanna be blonde-hair blue eyes, Aryan fantasizing, color-obsessed ("ooooh were we all lighter once" " dark armenians are not 'real 'armenians" -WTF???) , insignificant Coonist terms -spouting from debunked anthropology, anti-black, Orientalist dichotomizing ( levantine, anti-arab crap on here) chauvanists on this board.

 

HELLO!? What... moderators too afraid of being called "PC" enough to let this board become a fascist haven??

Fascist haven? anti-arab? ..... truly knowledgeable... very good... impressive...

 

i am not looking to just pick an argument with "someone new", and I never have picked an argument with anyone just for the sake of doing it .

..... her arguments are really irrelevant to my points - she is simply saying whatever comes to her mind and not really answering my questions or repelling my points. ....(going off in every direction and bringing in things that are irrelevant).. i don't usually call people by names (or at least i can't recall it - i don't even call people homophobes), but this, THIS is just grand.. this is a grand show of ignorance and the absence of common sense. so tell me, what, do you think calling this forum a fascist haven is logical, and what's more, do you think that her anger at the moderators for not censoring those so called white nationalists on the forum is really justifiable, when she's using the same freedom of speech she wouldn't be able to use had THEY called on the moderators to censor HER? hypocrisy at its best.

....

 

Edited by Sasun

[MosJan]

Each one of them have wary valid points and the topic it’s self is interesting – all we need is a nice and civilized conversation – so please - stop the insults

 

Mods it's all yours

lets gave them a fresh start

 

This thread wil be reopened soon.

 

 

 

Movses

[MosJan]

Sasun jan Thank you

 

 

thread is reopened

[Dan]

i thought we were done with the controversy of this topic - so why is it opened again?

[Vayri7X]

THOTH : :yes:Thanks for the close reading of what I wrote, and for understanding why I wrote it. Also for not assuming how I "read" in ra/ethn. terms in everyday society. I appreciate your attention to the issues at hand, which in addition to racism/natl'sm mostly were based on ; privilege, power, resistance, historical and cultural "appropriation", how power and social facts are constructed via our individual & collective identities and the globalization of certain ideologies.

 

I hope that some of the things I quoted ( Fanon, Bourdieu, Scott) provide constructive contributions. Also , I hope that the process that I detailed on how one could come to identify with the ideologies at hand ( The Superman Fantasy) serve useful in your future dealings, or just to think on. I may have @#$ed up in that the terminology I used in my writing it was dense. But these terminologies carry histories of meaning ( in progressive and anti-racist communities and sciences) and each was carefully chosen to imply those meanings.

 

Yeznig: I am grateful for your contributions. I think you definitely read my positions closely, and gleaned the implications as to what I was saying. I liked your Fanon reference and the beautiful words you dropped lifted my spirits during the frustrations ( and helped my other writings along as well). I find your position on identification interesting and valied.

Yes, there are many armos about who have those solidarities in spirit and practice. I won't detail my doings, but needless to say I am active in a number of areas, so my expressions are not limited to discourse alone. Due to my mobility, I haven't been able as I had as a teenager to spend -uninterrupted- , realtime in hye communities where these values abound on the same footing as say the religious values here in southern communities. I'm not dissing religion at all, just giving it as an example of the normative value structures that abound in Armenian communities.

 

Note: To maintain constructiveness past this post, I will soon post progressive links for others who wish to inform themselves further on issues of anti-racism, cultural issues, history, class and so forth. I'd also be interested to see our "take" on these subjects. I think that alot applies to in unique ways.

 

For lost brevity, I will stop here.

[THOTH]

Vayri -

 

thank you. I understand the issues you raise implicitly - they speak to me. I could never express them as eloquently (on a technical level) as you did however...(and reading you makes me feel so far removed from any academic roots it ain't funny)...but I am happy to lend my support where I can. You impress me greatly.

 

(there does exsist however - room for improvemtn in your presentation -IMO - but only because your audience - on a forum such as this - will likely not understand many of your references nor be clear exactly who and what you address - consider the example of Dan - where he completley misinterpreted your intent and aim. I imaigine that he was not alone in his confusion...even if he might be an extreme case...LOL)

 

And loved your thread title from the very start...it certainly spoke to me right away...you don't know how many times I've felt this...

[hagopn]

vairy7X wrote:

 

From us a people who came out of genocide... and you put up with this crap? In the name of what? Can't see the similarity with PAn-Turanism? It goes under your radar? HELLO!? What... moderators too afraid of being called "PC" enough to let this board become a fascist haven??

 

I agree and find the "color" complex among Armenians a most repulsive phenomenon. Yet, still have the Genocide defines us in "other" ways, seemingly beneficial? I don't let that get to me anymore. I too have faced with the tales of family members wiped off the face of the this Mother Earth in incoceivably cruel ways, but the time has come that I do not define myself with the Genocide. The Genocide is a shameful period deserving of mourning. It is not a moment of pride, nor is it a moment of "victimized glory." Let our friends the Jews make a Shoa Business of it. The "perennial (more, better, greater, best, bestest) victim" game is not for me, friend. IMHO, Armenians need to move on. We have much more to contribute to our future generations and those of others than we think.

 

If I may (and I will), let me warn those who "feel obligated to be with the opressed people and against the opressive behemoth" to take a moment and decide whether or not they are not just as obsessed with "polarization" of their minds against mostly innocent and well-meaning bystanders under the rubric of "behemoth opressors" as are their chosen (sic) "nemeses," those "aryan racist" identifiers who are just as much in dire need of finding their national anchors as the first group--> Opp, this is a mine field.

 

Melanin or no melanin (and I may be repeating your ideas - in your long, so very long post), (I was told I am "olive-skinned," whatever that's worth) I will only identify with one thing, and that is humanity, all of humanity, the humanity that has the perfectly legitimate right to identify with their own ancestors, but with the condition that they respect the CONCEPT of ancestry, meaning that they hold no double-standards on applying this concept onto others!

 

This "psychological babble" might explain my position a bit more clearly: All those peoples and "nations" (nation-states are NOT necessarily nations, and I will say this untill I am blue in the face, cold and chilled blue), who think in terms of complexes and "polarized political and racial contextualizations," are mere victims of ages and ages of Imperialism and its after-effects. We can blame them, but their conscience is their guide as much as their (yes, in this case) "mythology" permits it.

 

The "myth" of the "opressed people versus the opressor" in terms of "colors" or "nations and tribes in absolute measured and measurable quantitites and qualities" is fluff. That, friends, is also a TRAP. If that is the issue at hand, then it is just as true that "Blacks" have opressed and slaughtered enough "whites, reds, and yellows" to fill all oil tankers (hint, hint).

 

ALL of humanity is a victim to this disease called IMPERIALISM, which is the disease CARRIED by all jaded masses but is induced by very much so thinking minorities. The pattern is the same: take away identity, take away mother and father (in terms of nurturing and "moistenint" [to borrow from a mythologer friend] culture in general), raise in vacuum, use as mindless footsoldier... It never varies, and it is most unfortunate, but those who consider themselves to be "open-minded arbiters of fairness" who also spew hateful rhetoric against the "wrong opressive type" as if dealing with "inherent Evil" need to get an oil check as well. Their hearts are just as hardened as those they despise.

 

People, there is no wrong in calling someone out on their BS. It takes a spine.

 

So you have spine, while those others do not. What species are they?

 

WEll,,, I was SHOT AT by neo-nazis and my Armenian family has been HARASSED by them - for being Armenians and seen as "dark foreigners". Not the only Armenian family either. Talk to the Armenians in the "jackal ward" in CA after teh INS round-up.

 

Ah, the lesson in "Standard Liberalist Taxonomy 101" begins.

 

In your Europhile fawning , you are ignoring the needs of the Armenians in Iran, Iraq and other West Asian countries cause you are so desperate to be seen as "European" . I pity your internalized racism and self-hatred, as much as I am angered at the MASSACRE of our identities and histories , just so it can neatly fit into a NON-ARMENIAN DEFINED checkbox of "Race".

 

With all due respect, but you, in your Europhobic rabid foaming, have forgotten that you need to inform, soften, enjoin, and not kill. (I know I have done that enough in my Europhobic foaming in the mouth days.) Europeans have not only "opressed," much as I hate the concept of Imperialism, but Imperialism in some cases brought with it some genuine benefits. The downside is, however, unfortunately enough and as is expected/inexorable, that the "material forces" that began the quest for Imperial Conquest overshadowed and often negated the genuine Missionary spirit that accompanied Imperialism on occasion. At least, that is my belief on the matter with the amount of information I have been exposed to. Perhaps you can dispell that, but with calm, if that is not the case.

 

and here I do not even feel safe posting on this " armenians" board cus you people are TRYING TO STEAL MY HISTORY AND I TAKE IT VERY PERSONALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND I AM ARMENIAN!

 

This is HOT HOT HOT! Down friend, DOWN DOWN, Tasmania., err, Armenia

 

you think you can seize some moral highground by co-opting the genocide into your white nationalist writings .because some of our homeland is near the Caucasus. Ignorants. And now some Armenians buy it, wanting to Eurify themselves. I have seen it, and see it here. The thefy of our tragedy to bolster white nationalist writing. In Duke's writings, the so-called LEgion Europa, Stormfront pages. I lived in the South in the US, and I so I have had close contact with your likes. I know your schemes, and how you like to COLONIZE OTHER PEOPLES IDENTITIES AS MUCH AS YOU COLONIZE THEIR LANDS!

 

So, you have finished with your identification of this individual already? Tell me, is his condition terminal, 50%, or is the virus receeding after your "shock therapy?" Oh, I was told this chap is now "banned?" WOW, that will make things better. Why, I don't know how to thank you, you anti-racist, anti-Imperialist, anti-White-supremacist, Walpole you.

 

I never thought I would have to deal with this $% here.

 

Hey, for what it's worth, I always wait for your type. I love your type most of all.

 

Now we got insecure, right-wing Armenians , as desperate and fawning to accepted as Europeans as any Turk! Mart.. this same mentality you'd use if "Central Asian" was associated with superiority. You'd be desperately trying to refashion yourself as "central asian" instead of Near Eastern.

All of this Europhile crap *completely* ERASES the COMPLEXITY of our experience and STEALS our history as a people whose history was around WAY BEFORE anyone decided to divide the world up into West, Middle EAst and East !

 

About Turks: Can we please tell Turks to make up their darn minds??? Do they allow Mulan to play in Turkey or not, and are they "Turkic" with pan-Turkist wet dreams or are they "Europeanlar?" I think it's cruel to deprive Turkish children of Disney's "masterpiece" that "touches" upon the Huns' invasion, not to mention all those wonderful songs!

 

I would like to write something more substantial , but I am too angry and disappointed after reading the "Armenian Origins".

 

OK, OK, I will read, and, I am "sure" that I will feel as "obliged to protect "The Richer in Melanocytes" from now on.

 

AND GUESS WHAT FOR YOU BIOLOGICAL DETERMINISTS??

There is an inherited disease called FMF- Familial Medittereanean FEver. The only people who can inherit it are " Arabs, Armenians, Jews from the Middle EAst (like it or not).

 

Biological "determinist." Oh, I like it, I like it! Jeez...

 

So take your white pride/white nationalist history -colonizing, slave mentality ( as in inferiority complex) and go to Stormfornt or some other knuckle-dragging, pseudo-intellectual racist forum. If you're a light-skinned Armenian conned into this, you're delusional. Just turn your back, and you'll get jacked ... And for the white nationalists, I hope you all get as jacked up as your did in Jersey.

 

Yes, and please let vayri7X and her superiority complex in being sympathetic to the Opressed Ones alone!

 

Armenian. From a family of full-blooded, 100% "SWARTHY" Armenians and PROUD OF IT !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Same here! (Oh, but I was born with blond hair! SORRY!) My "inferior wife" however is dark, dark as they (us "Sand-Neggers") come...

 

And, I know this is gonna turn into some "censorship" discussion. Well.. I take the THEFT of our HISTORY SERIOUSLY!

 

Ta Ta! You cannot tell me that I "thin read" you! Yoohoo!

Edited January 11, 2004 by hagopn