Sip Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 ever since then he always tells us that he came back for the two of us, my sis and me That's a very nice story and will make a wonderful movie and will make people's eyes tear up. All I am saying is, I don't subscribe to any of that. They injected me with a few cc's of something and I was OUT. No floating, no feeling, no ANYTHING ... nothing was felt, nothing was experienced .... there was NOTHING until I came back to being again I think that's what death is like. For some reason people always seem to want to imagine much more complex things where in fact, it's quite simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 hmmm... but suppose that once you hit your head somwhere and have a total amnesia of what you did in the previous hours, does that mean that there was "nothing" in that moment? Or lets say you drink a lot and afterwards you do stupid things and then you sleep, the next morning you don,t remember what you did, does that mean that there was nothing at all? Oh and, I don,t want to imagine more complext things, I am forced to do that, I will stop thinking more complext things the day someone is able to explain me what conscienceness is and why/how it exist... until then, I will continue my retorical statment: "The Universe must at the very least be as rewarding and magical as conscienceness." That's because if the Universe was not at least as magical, it could not allow such thing... Since conscienceness exist, there is place for a little magic in our Universe. And I dare you to prove me else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 I can't prove you anything ... all I can tell you is for a long time "fire" seemed magical to cavemen ... that round bright thing in the sky seemed like a god ... we thought we were magically the center of everything and everything revolved around us. People thought grape juice turned into wine by magic ... there are still those that think UFOs exist and are flying around us ... to some, what a computer can do seems like magic ... Many believed that the sick were possessed by the devil ... we burned many claiming them to be "witches" ... All I know is, we as humans seem to see "magic, supernatural, other-worldly" when we don't understand something. I think we should learn from the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 I do agree with you here Sip, but in part, what you are refering here is about human lack of knowledge, and our reason to believe supernatural things because we could not understand those things. But in this cases it is a compleat different issue, because conscienceness is magical, what I mean by this, is that unlike fire and other things, if we were to understand them(Which we did) all this magical belief will die with it, but not with conscienceness, even if we were to understand conscienceness, it won't make it in any way less magical and less rewarding. Conscienceness makes the Universe much more complex and promessing, because it pushes the possibilities to new horizons, and that no matter if we understand it one day or not. Still, Universes should at least be as magical as conscienceness... and conscienceness is the biggest misteries of all, this why is the biggest ever, it ain,t like why apple fall, it ain,t like the fire that the cavemen found magical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 people will believe what they will believe and that will become their reality! however we are very finite in our knowledge and intelligence to be so arrogant and judgmental as to dismiss all the possibilities outside our limited current earthly human perceptions...the time will come (no matter how long it takes) when all ego and individuality will give way to a universal way of looking at life and death and the endless cycle that transforms one into the other, and we will be humbled by our ignorance and open our inner eyes to a universe and a new world we never imagined and never understood... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 the time will come (no matter how long it takes) when all ego and individuality will give way to a universal way of looking at life and death and the endless cycle that transforms one into the other, and we will be humbled by our ignorance and open our inner eyes to a universe and a new world we never imagined and never understood... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 What if we open our eyes one day and realize our imagination had been running wild and coming up with theories and wonderful explanations for otherwise much simpler things? All I am saying here is that all these talks of ghosts, goblins, souls, other universes, things beyond death, coming and going in different shapes, and gods and angels and so so so so many of these "magical" things we are talking about ... most have started from our imaginations! Let's not get carried away with those Is it possible? Yah maybe. But what's more probable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 What you bring is interesting Hyebruin. We consider someone that is "on Earth" a person that uses common sense. What is common sense? Common sense is experience, what you expect from what your senses have recorded in your life. This is common sense. Common sense want that when you trow something it will end on the floor, because as far as you can go in your past, you experienced this. This is magical for the child, that trow something that will finally end on the floor, and finally this child will have an experience, and his "common sense" will tell him this... The day that you will trow something to than realise that it will not end in the floor, than you will see that from your child eyes. The film Contact, if you remember well, when the woman saw this new reality, you could see that her faces was changed morphed with the face that she was when she was a child, she was seing that with her girl eyes... this moment I believe was the most important part of the film(In the book by Carle, it is said that she was seing by her child eyes). This is what really a child is compared with a grown person, the child sees all anew. A new Universe would just make us born again, see things from a child eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 ... and conscienceness is the biggest misteries of all, this why is the biggest ever... yes, exactly! and up to this day neurologists, neurochemists, neurophysiologists...none of them can define exactly what consciousness is or where it exists in the brain or how to even measure/verify its presence!!--- i see this somewhat related parallel with consciousness and theoretical physics where initially they thought the atom was the smallest unit of matter, then they found the protons and neutrons and electrons...then they found all the thousands and thousands of subatomic particles and are still finding more!!...so now, from what i read, physicists think that there is no such thing as matter (yes Domino it's an illusion!)...but rather on the subatomic level matter is made up of probabilities of waves and that 'somehow' these dual wave-particle probability patterns condense and form matter...so if matter is that difficult and obscure to understand, how in the world will we EVER figure out the essence of consciousness??? ---somebody move this thread to the philosophy/science section--- see what we started Domino??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 (edited) Is it possible? Yah maybe. But what's more probable? Good point. Lets use this logic in my turn. Is it possible that only one Universe exist? Yeh! But what is more probable? That just one Universe pop from nothingless(which is undeterminated), or that there is billions of billions of Universes just poping up from nothingless ? And that as we speak there is infinit numbers? Common sense say, that if there is one comming from nowhere there shall be others, and others and others, and since nowhere is not a determinated thing, the only "number" of things it could creat is an undeterminated amount, which amount to infinit. So, are you ready now to tell me that from all those Infinit numbers of Universes, you will never again be? If you are now, that proves your existance is possible, so why putting a restriction on a possibility that this existance which is possible(prove you exist) to exist in any other universes, in a domain that is from minus infinit to plus infinit(Eternity). I can use common sense in my advantages now. Can I not? Edited November 24, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 so if matter is that difficult and obscure to understand, how in the world will we EVER figure out the essence of consciousness??? It is right now ... just like "electricity" was a completely foreign and "obscure" concept a few hundred years ago. But now we understand it well enough to be able to stuff a billion tiny transistors into a few square milimeteres ... Right now it's obscure ... but that doesn't meen it's going to stay obscure indefinitely. Heisenberg once said we can't know the position and verlocity of an electron both at the same time. But we have found ways to describe it (using probabilistic models). There's no saying what cannot be done. Obviously what has been done, can be done. Now about the "can't be dones" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Fad, I have to think about your last post but I think you'll have an easier time convincing me of a universe and an anti-universe than billions of universes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 All I am saying here is that all these talks of ghosts, goblins, souls, other universes, things beyond death, coming and going in different shapes, and gods and angels and so so so so many of these "magical" things we are talking about ... most have started from our imaginations! Let's not get carried away with those Sip, there are things that are imagined and things that are not. While goblins are imagined soul is not imagined. The existence of the soul has been known for millenia and persisted, it can't be imagined although one can easily imagine a goblin. Why do you assume that people in old times were stupid to believe in imagined things. And do you really think that believing in the sould is a matter of imagining? It is so easy to dismiss it as imagination but imagine that you could dismiss also the existence of quantum if someone had told you 100 years ago. As far as soul is concerned, people didn't just invent it and stupidly kept believing in it. It has been "verified" through practice of meditation, some people have observed and realized the soul by practicing many years of meditation. It takes only one second to imagine the soul, but to discover is not at all easy.You are saying it is possible but not probable that the soul exists, correct? So how do you calculate the probobility of it? I suggest you get in touch with your own soul and know for yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 (edited) yes, exactly! and up to this day neurologists, neurochemists, neurophysiologists...none of them can define exactly what consciousness is or where it exists in the brain or how to even measure/verify its presence!!--- i see this somewhat related parallel with consciousness and theoretical physics where initially they thought the atom was the smallest unit of matter, then they found the protons and neutrons and electrons...then they found all the thousands and thousands of subatomic particles and are still finding more!!...so now, from what i read, physicists think that there is no such thing as matter (yes Domino it's an illusion!)...but rather on the subatomic level matter is made up of probabilities of waves and that 'somehow' these dual wave-particle probability patterns condense and form matter...so if matter is that difficult and obscure to understand, how in the world will we EVER figure out the essence of consciousness??? ---somebody move this thread to the philosophy/science section--- see what we started Domino???Hhhhh... Just one correction, when you say physicists, it's not really true... but there is a part in those String theorists which believe that when you take a string and you place it as a line. ____________________ If you see that line, it is long of lets say 1 cm, but those points forming the line are long of "0" or better the limit of "0" a limit between existance and non-existance. BTW: It can not be moved to a philosophy thread, because we don,t have any. Sip, that girl has more the passion that a scientific is supposed to have than you. Edited November 24, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 (edited) Fad, I have to think about your last post but I think you'll have an easier time convincing me of a universe and an anti-universe than billions of universes Yeh! But, Universe and Anti-Universes will still lead to the same conclusion, nothingless separate to two different opposit Universes, if from nothingless that could happen, nothingless is not a determinated thing, so there is no reason(if you use common sense) that there shall be not infinit numbers of Universes and anti-Universes, because from the undeterminism of nothingless, there could only be an undterminated number of Universes, and that for eternity. Edited November 24, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 It is right now ... just like "electricity" was a completely foreign and "obscure" concept a few hundred years ago. But now we understand it well enough to be able to stuff a billion tiny transistors into a few square milimeteres ... Right now it's obscure ... but that doesn't meen it's going to stay obscure indefinitely. Heisenberg once said we can't know the position and verlocity of an electron both at the same time. But we have found ways to describe it (using probabilistic models). There's no saying what cannot be done. Obviously what has been done, can be done. Now about the "can't be dones" ... Sip, this is wrong... the difference with consceness unlike any other things, is that consciencess is a phenomenology that is not material. Can you touch or detect conscienceness... this is why it is so misterious... even if we could one day understand why it exist, it will never change this fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hhhhh... Just one correction, when you say physicists, it's not really true... but there is a part in those String theorists which believe that when you take a string and you place it as a line. Sip, that girl has more the passion that a scientific is supposed to have than you. i'm just stating the source i'm getting my info from---and the guy is a theoretical physicist...who from what i gather are way more creative and imaginative than just a regular physicist...but of course they all pray to the same God: math!! what you mean me? i'm passionate about EVERYTHING!!! ---life's not worth living without passion; it's a great source of fuel and a wonderful way to stay young and happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 There is many theoritical physicists that believe some things... some are just a little too weird. Like the Italian physicist that claimed that in the middle of a star the temperature is near 0 absolut. You should read a little about Super string, that thing is fantastic. If you want some books to read, I can refer you to plenty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 i have skimmed through it (string theory) but didn't actually read up on it!!---is this the one about parallel universes and black holes and white giants as tunnels to different dimensions? --- my school break is coming up, please do recommend a few good ones (not too long!!) that i can read for the next few weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Let me find my list, and I'll give you a compleat list tomorrow. BTW: Black holes etc... are not really about super string but new modifications of the super string could explain it... Parallel Universes, not really, but Superstring proposes multiple Universes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 A good source of the string theory it this website, http://www.superstringtheory.com . I like the way they have set up - basic and advanced explanation of the same thing. There is a lot more than just the string theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Here the Lazzy way to learn about the String Theory. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html It's about 3 hour watching them all... but takes less times than books and a good start. (Ah, and the credit goes to Edwards who provided that link). That,s all I can give for today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Actualy Domino - I think I provided that link...and yeah - good stuff. This subject was discussed somewhat at my little weekend offsite as a matte rof fact and this show in particular. What prompted it was a super clear and cold (moonless) night way out in the country (Sat night)...and us standing out for quite some time just being amazed (and quite drunk of course) starring at the stars and constellations and at the milky way...and considering even the billions of star systems in our "known" universe....(all that other stuff, though quite interesting..is basically just unkowable bunk IMO...and the mathmatics is [i beleive...but with the caveat that I don't understand a bit of it] very primative and likely to be be looked on at some point in the future as Newton is today...quaint, and apreciated for explainign some things in a simple way..but ultimately falling shor tof any actual description of reality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Maybe you provided the link, I didn't pied attention sorry, or maybe I oppened and didn,t realised the movies were there... I realised when Edward gave the link and said they were there. So OK, lets update, the credit goes to both of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Wati a minute... why is it that whatever we talk about this string theory always comes in the picture? Is it because there is a Domino around ? yes yes yes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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