Karabegh merger with Armenia?

[Guest]

Why would the people of Karabagh vote to merge with Armenia by a landslide in the early 90s and then decide that they want independence soon after? Wouldn't a merger be mutally beneficial for both countries?

 

[This message has been edited by wh00t (edited February 03, 2001).]

[Guest]

The independence of Karabagh was proposed as to provide Armenians with a flexibility in the international political arena, to mitigate the contradictions between the two fundamental principals if international law -nation's right for self-determination, and the the territorial integrity of sovereign countries.

 

It was also deemed to be a compromise by the Armenian side.

 

Additionally, that step has allowed the recognition of Armenia's independence by the international community and institutions, and its integration into European and other international political, economic and financial structures.

 

I think that the integration of Karabagh with Armenia will indeed be mutually beneficial, but the issue was its possibility.

 

Note that on the level of economy, financial system, etc., that integration has already taken place.

 

Basically the issue is not whether we recognize the unification of Armenia and Karabagh, but whether the others would recognize it.

[Guest]

Heydar Aliyev Can Agree With the Plan of Building a Common State Between

Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Artsax

By Albert Freedman

 

BAKU, Feb 15, 2001 -- (Transcaspian Project) The Russian, American and

French cochairmen of the OSCE Minsk Group on Nagorno-Artsax submitted it

in 1999.

 

This proposal of the messengers was accepted by official Yerevan and

Stepanakert, but rejected by Baku. The Last in that time has called the

plan of settling the Nagorno-Artsax status by the principle of "common

state" as an apparent threat to the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan.

 

Nowadays, as asserts a number of the Azerbaijani MASS-MEDIAS, Heydar Aliyev

is bent to accept this plan and actually has hinted about it during the

meeting held recently in Paris, with the president of Armenia Robert

Cocharyan.

 

Official Baku while has not reacted in any way to this information of local

MASS-MEDIAS, whereas the opposition Azerbaijani politics and majority of

the independent experts interpreted this report as Aliyev's readiness to

conclude a secret union with the enemy. The supporters of such position

consider that the most important problem for the Azerbaijani president is

the constitutional handover of power to his son Ilham Aliyev. For this

reason, as some Aliyev's opponents confirm, the current Azerbaijani leader

is extremely interested in a quick settlement of the Artsax conflict,

that the latter is not utilized by opposition and external forces as an

internal political factor which is capable to blast the situation in the

republic and to close the way of Ilham towards the Olympus of authority.

 

Meanwhile, it is characteristic that the term of "common state" becomes

rather actual for Azerbaijan and not only in connection with the Artsax

conflict.

 

So, some representatives of ultra nationalistic forces in Turkey, including

the party in power MNR, have acted with the proposal to form a common state

including Turkey and Azerbaijan and to convert this state institute into

alternative to the membership of Ankara and Baku into "not absolutely

amicable tuned international organizations", particularly EU and CIS.

[Paul bunyan]

Artsax or more properly, Artsakh, shoud be an independent country they should abandon the Armenian constitution their government rubberstamp approved for one modeled after American constitution which guerantees absolute freedom from oppressions, civil, judicial, and religious! if Artsakh stays independant and its regions Kashatagh, Karvajar, Kovskan, and Kushunik are allowed to be largely autonomous and develope according to the will of the people in the regions Artsakh could become a great nations

[Kazza]

That seems to me like a good idea. But lets give the country a chance before we jump into anything like that. Spending diaspora money on virgin monastaries! (OK, sorry, but I still cant believe that) be sensible with diaspora money.

It would be beneficial... But I suppose they'd think that because everyone wants their own strong country off their own bat and not because they merged with another one. But they would probably , because of the geography and that Armenia would offer, take us up on that, use the situation for as long as they need and when they get stronger go for independance. Pretty much like the one in your group at work or college , not doing much work towards a project, then getting good marks for the others effort? I do not know enough about the situation to judge that's what they will do, or we will do, these are just ideas. So please don't get the wrong idea! And mabye that is even not a bad thing?
It's like Checkeslovakia (drat, cant spell it!), they countries merged up, and then split up again.

[THOTH]

MJ is correct regarding why an independent Karabagh/Artsakh versus union with Armenia. At the time unification with Armenian was not politically acceptable (nor is it now it would seem - as Armenia has largely failed in the propaganda war - even if victorious militarily). However, ultimately - NK/Artsakh is not viable as a nation - IMO. (To some extent I think this about all these little countries in the Balkans and Caucuses). At the very least some form of regional confederation will be necessary for them (Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan) to survive - IMO. In the short term I think that Artsakh/NK must hold out for some degree of secure and reconizable autonomy (even if within the Azeri State...though not a preferred solution) and ultimatley perhaps union with Armenia. In the longer term I would like to see the Russians out of the Caucuses altogether (just a dream for now)...and perhaps one day even the Northern Caucuses peoples can be free...(of both Russia and of their own inept Zealot warlords...)

[Guest]

Thoth I agree with you, a transcaucasian, union is beneficial for all the staes tthere, eventually north Caucasus can join this. But I don't agree that the Russians should be ethnic cleansed, after two hundred years of Russian dominance on caucasus, the Russians have become part of the population, but if you meant by the russians the Russian army, I can agree as long as the Americans don't replace them. (In my Opinion) I would not like to have a long discussion about it, this was my opinion, a lot of people may not agree, but any way.

 

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Tornado ]

[THOTH]

Tornado - i never meant to say Russians - as in Russian people - I was refering to the Government/military. Certainly there is no way that Russians will not have influence over region - they are a large, powerful nation and the Caucuses is their doorstep. But they benefit from divide and conquor - and because there is lack of a good alternative. I would like to see Caucuses people - united without animosity - and strong enough to resist Russian (and Turkish and Iranian) influence. Can this ever occur with these states small and seperate?

 

I would never advocate cleansing of any group of people for any reason (except perhaps Republicans.... [joke]...). Various Russians have made their hoes inthe Caucuses - some for generations - who are we to deny them their peace and livelyhood? (Regardless of our resentment regarding their (original) nation's historic and continuing imperialism.

 

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[Guest]

I strongly think that the republic of Azerbaijan will be soon or late again part of Iran.

[nairakev]

I do not believe in it strongly, but I'll say it anyway.
I believe that Iran will break apart after another revolution. And the Northern and Southern Azerbaijan will form a new Republic.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by naira:

I do not believe in it strongly, but I'll say it anyway.
I believe that Iran will break apart after another revolution. And the Northern and Southern Azerbaijan will form a new Republic.

---

There is no northern Azerbaijan. This is Aran. and this was an Iranian province too, Nakhjivan signed a petition to reunite with the mainland Iran in 1918 and Shirvan/Gharabagh (Eastern part od Azerbaijan republic)and naxjevan, decided after voting in their parlement, unanimously that they want to reunite with the mainland Iran. the first attempt was frustrated by the Turks and allied who didn't let the Iranian-Nakhjivanian delagation enter the peace talks, and the second attempt was rejected by the Iranian king who wanted to maintain good relations with Russia.

I know that some Armenian provocators in some Iranian aforums want to make hostility between different Iranian ethnic groups, in order to have a Fars, Kurdish alliance against Azeri's, but I should say this is very dumb of them, If Iran breakes down, then Armenia and whole transcaucasia has a problem and as one of the counterbalances falls the region would be occupied by the Turks, after the bigger Azerbaijan has concurred back Gharabagh, and concurred rest of Armenia. After this Turkey will try to accupy transcaucasia, as they see the bigger Azerbaijan as a new threat to themselves who may successfully claim Kars abd Ighdir and Erzerum, so Turkey will accupy this new state, as she sees that her counterbalance (Iran) has fallen and sees her way free.But Russia will interfere too and this may lead to the bloodiest war in transcaucasia between the US/Turkey forces and Russian/transcaucasian forces.

This scenario is a nightmare, this is a warning to all those troublemaker forces.

[nairakev]

Look Tornado, your statements stink as any cheap Armenian, Iranian, Chinese, Turk or German lunatic's statements. You live in the past. Please, go to history section and talk on "all-mighty" Persian Empire. I have nothing to talk here with you since you talk about history (which one, still needs some debates) and I was refering to your megalomanis forecats on Azerbaijan 's future.

You are an "iranian" "aryan" racist nothing more than that. I have really not much to offer in response to your empty and "ego-centriic" nationalist statements. Go fool youserlf alikes. Still want some interesting debate. Broke you square-headed aryan or iranian approach to the region we are talking about. What a brain-washer. oof!

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by naira:


Look Tornado, your statements stink as any cheap Armenian, Iranian, Chinese, Turk or German lunatic's statements. You live in the past. Please, go to history section and talk on "all-mighty" Persian Empire. I have nothing to talk here with you since you talk about history (which one, still needs some debates) and I was refering to your megalomanis forecats on Azerbaijan 's future.

You are an "iranian" "aryan" racist nothing more than that. I have really not much to offer in response to your empty and "ego-centriic" nationalist statements. Go fool youserlf alikes. Still want some interesting debate. Broke you square-headed aryan or iranian approach to the region we are talking about. What a brain-washer. oof!

---

It is an honor as an outsider to become an Aryan Iranian. at least the aryan Iranian racists accept the outsiders and are not that racist like some 'honest'Armenians towards the outsiders.

BTW take a look at this message about how the real Azeri's think: http://www.cyberiran.com/forum/?read=8853
http://www.cyberiran.com/forum/?read=8852
http://www.cyberiran.com/forum/?read=8854

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Tornado ]

[nairakev]

OK. I'll have a look. Thank you, outsider aryan.