DominO123 Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Domino, I am not talking about entropy, entropy is only one example. There is a more fundamental thing that not all processes can go both ways unlike mathematical equations. From that experience we can say that even if something is mathematically possible is not necessarily a real thing. I am trying to make the point that just because 0 could mean 1 plus -1 doesn't mean that from nothingness things can come forward, although it is possible.It may or maynot be true. Yet you are so convinced. Where is the proof that it can happen? Even string theory is just a theory. Your theory is outstretching string theory. In mathematical words: for something to be true and real it is necesary but not sufficient that it obeys mathematics. Am I more clear now? There is PLENTY of evidences, and even observations about that... First, you satill are using backward, which supposes that time existed, inflationism does not need time to exist... Now the evidences, a black whole is an evidences... theoritically a black whole does not emit light, it is a singularity, but yet, on the limit zone of a black whole, where a vaccum is created, there is electrons that are created from nothingless, its other anti-electron is eliminated by taking the opposit direction and being eaten by the black whole, this is how we can know that a black whole will die one day, because it looses energy by losing the electron, since the vaccum creats "negatives" which eat a little amount of energy, each time an electron is expulsed... This is a prove of the inflationism, here time is not important, in a Vaccum, time does not really exist... in this cases from "0" there is electrons created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Proof of God, what do I need?Him speaking to me, a miracle or two, would suffice... Why can't he get off his high chair and talk to us in person instead of appointing secretaries a.k.a. prophets and expect us to remember eons later that these secretaries said we couldn't see him until our lives were over?No, those won't prove his existance, those are evidences... you can only prove in mathematic. In courts, one is innocent until proven guilty with proof, not evided (?) with evidence... And they surely don't use math!OK, I get it, you want a systematic for the procedure to be "proof"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Actually, I just remembered I'm still supposed to prove to you, you exist ... with my proof-by-punching technique. You can not prove my existance on the propor sense of the term, I can prove I exist, but I can't prove you do exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Because he has no high chair and is not a person. This is a very simplistic and unjustified complaint Come down from his clouds, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 In courts, one is innocent until proven guilty with proof, not evided (?) with evidence... And they surely don't use math!OK, I get it, you want a systematic for the procedure to be "proof"... Yep! We always use the word prove, even I (cheater I am ) but in science, prove is a very strong word, it supposes that it is the truth, absolute truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Domino, you are talking about particle propagation vs. annihilation, am I right? Black whole is located in the universe where there is already physics, energy and a lot of other things. Your theory is a whole different story, it assumes that nothing existed except mathematics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Domino, you are talking about particle propagation vs. annihilation, am I right? Black whole is located in the universe where there is already physics, energy and a lot of other things. Your theory is a whole different story, it assumes that nothing existed except mathematics. Zzzzzzz... WRONG!!! In the limit zone of a black whole, there is no marticules, nothing, nada, to be more exact, there is nothing that could react to gravity, nuclear and electromagnetic forces... in a Vaccum, there is no mesurable time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Stormik , God had "come down from the clouds" as Jesus, spoke to people and performed 44 miracles. A lot of people still didn't believe. Are you saying if you were there you would believe, but since you didn't see with your own eyes you can't believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Zzzzzzz... WRONG!!! In the limit zone of a black whole, there is no marticules, nothing, nada, to be more exact, there is nothing that could react to gravity, nuclear and electromagnetic forces... in a Vaccum, there is no mesurable time. Fadixxxx, stop wronging me, I am going to kick the crap out of you You just said this on the limit zone of a black whole, where a vaccum is created, there is electrons that are created from nothingless, its other anti-electron is eliminated by taking the opposit direction and being eaten by the black whole, now you are saying there is nada??? by the way, since there is nada then there is something logically speaking, right? So this nada at least exists, and since it exists then there is also time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Lets say this nada is static, so that would not change anything, since in a static system, there can't be time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 What about the electrons that you say are created in the black hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Stormy, if you want to "meet, talk to" God in our time you have to make some effort. Imagine God is on the tenth floor, and we are on the first floor. If we want to meet God we have to go up, God has rarely come down to the first floor. But when we go up one floor to the second floor God comes down 8 floors to the second floor as well and there we meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Stormy, if you want to "meet, talk to" God in our time you have to make some effort. Imagine God is on the tenth floor, and we are on the first floor. If we want to meet God we have to go up, God has rarely come down to the first floor. But when we go up one floor to the second floor God comes down 8 floors to the second floor as well and there we meet. Ahh - I get it now...God is that building maintenance guy...now i understand all those words of wisdom....LOL Seriously though - the issue is that there are all sorts of (immagined/created etc) people/beings who reside on the 10th floor...and no one seems to agree which is the real one...and even those who say/think they are agreeing on "the guy" all seem to interpret his mumblings very differently (and still sometimes want to wipe out the entire floors 2-9 because these folks haven't bought in properly and are following some other guys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 What about the electrons that you say are created in the black hole? They are not created inside, but on the critic point, that means outside of the black whole, in the limit where light can escape, its a radius... In order for movements to exist, there must be something that would have the movement, a movement of a "nada" is not a movement, because you can't detect any variation of position in this cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 They are not created inside, but on the critic point, that means outside of the black whole, in the limit where light can escape, its a radius... In order for movements to exist, there must be something that would have the movement, a movement of a "nada" is not a movement, because you can't detect any variation of position in this cases. I don't know much about the black hole theories (and those are still theories, very little evidence describing as to what really takes place in the black holes). I will take your word for it (if I understand ). The way I understand is that the edge of the black hole is still part of it. Or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Seriously though - the issue is that there are all sorts of (immagined/created etc) people/beings who reside on the 10th floor...and no one seems to agree which is the real one...and even those who say/think they are agreeing on "the guy" all seem to interpret his mumblings very differently (and still sometimes want to wipe out the entire floors 2-9 because these folks haven't bought in properly and are following some other guys... In my understanding all beings are approxiamations, and the real being is not possible to understand and interpret intellectuall (with human language and concepts). That is why there are contradictions. The bottomline is, if we want to know for real then we must pursue on our own and not pay attention to contradictions. For beginners it is an intuitive type of knowledge to figure out what to do or pick up one of the available paths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 LOL Sasun...you are almost soundign like Domino now....but OK I hear you...adn I'm not saying that ist wrong (for you...or anyone else)...alli am saying (for me) is that I see no need to have to believe in something that I cannot know or know to be true...doesn't mean I stop asking qustions and wondering...its jujst that I am not expecting answers/revelation...and I am sory if i am somewhat a skeptic of others claims in this regard too...again - doesn't mena that what your doing/believing etc is not worthwhile in its own way (for you...and perhaps others)...there is much wisdom for us all to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 LOL Sasun...you are almost soundign like Domino now....but OK I hear you...adn I'm not saying that ist wrong (for you...or anyone else)...alli am saying (for me) is that I see no need to have to believe in something that I cannot know or know to be true...doesn't mean I stop asking qustions and wondering...its jujst that I am not expecting answers/revelation...and I am sory if i am somewhat a skeptic of others claims in this regard too...again - doesn't mena that what your doing/believing etc is not worthwhile in its own way (for you...and perhaps others)...there is much wisdom for us all to learn.Thoth, I see and accept your point as a valid one from a certain perspective. P.S. It looks like I hang out too much with Domino Something must be done about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 In my understanding all beings are approxiamations, and the real being is not possible to understand and interpret intellectuall (with human language and concepts). That is why there are contradictions. The bottomline is, if we want to know for real then we must pursue on our own and not pay attention to contradictions. For beginners it is an intuitive type of knowledge to figure out what to do or pick up one of the available paths. and to further add to this stimulating discussion...it is absolutely important to know God through your own heart and soul and intuitition and not necessarily through a medium such as organized religion or an institution or somebody's opinion...definitely not saying that Christ did not die for us on the cross, however know Christ through your own heart and being and not through a priest or some other earthly figure...though it is wonderful when people we know inspire us, but it's important to have a direct connection with God thereafter, after you've been enlightened...kind of like the parent-child relationship...you teach kids and show them the best you can, but don't live their life for them, let them spread their wings and experience life....just like we spread our wings and open our hearts and get to know God...God being the infinite loving grace that is omniscent and omnipotent, and we as humans are parts of God, that's why it's often said that God lives in our hearts because we all, no matter how sinful, hateful, and corrupt we ALL are, there is that little flicker of light even in the darkest soul that has the potential to become good or to return to its natural state of kindness and goodness...it's that flicker of light that binds all humans, all life, and gives rise to compassion and love not just for our friends and family but for the entire world!--how else can we explain the pain and sorrow we feel when we hear of a tragedy on tv or read about an aweful brutal act of violence against an individual or a people? why do we all hurt? because we are them and they are us!! no matter what race, color, or even belief system...we all came from the same light, we all are connected and feel and rejoice and grieve through that universal bond that transcends time and space, and we all shall return to the source of that light, home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 (edited) Here are the Fadixian 7 Universal certainties. After hour of meditations, I came to that. 1. Foundamental Mathematic 2. I exist 3. Consciencenous exist, if it was to not exist, I would not know of my own existance. 4. There is at least one observer(me). 5. There is at least one thing being observed(which would be myself). 6. Uncertainty exist, since the fact that only the 7 points here are certainties, it automatically means that the rest is only uncertainty. 7. Certainty exist, since the above 6 certainties are certainties, including the existance of certainties... that would mean, there is 7 certainties, therefore, certainties do exist. So now, I have tools to prove things, the only way to prove things would be to use those certainties. If anyone disagree with just one of those points as being certainties, feel free to contradict me. Edited November 7, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KavorKin99 Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 sorry Domino lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 and to further add to this stimulating discussion...it is absolutely important to know God through your own heart and soul and intuitition and not necessarily through a medium such as organized religion or an institution or somebody's opinion...definitely not saying that Christ did not die for us on the cross, however know Christ through your own heart and being and not through a priest or some other earthly figure...though it is wonderful when people we know inspire us, but it's important to have a direct connection with God thereafter, after you've been enlightened...kind of like the parent-child relationship...you teach kids and show them the best you can, but don't live their life for them, let them spread their wings and experience life....just like we spread our wings and open our hearts and get to know God...God being the infinite loving grace that is omniscent and omnipotent, and we as humans are parts of God, that's why it's often said that God lives in our hearts because we all, no matter how sinful, hateful, and corrupt we ALL are, there is that little flicker of light even in the darkest soul that has the potential to become good or to return to its natural state of kindness and goodness...it's that flicker of light that binds all humans, all life, and gives rise to compassion and love not just for our friends and family but for the entire world!--how else can we explain the pain and sorrow we feel when we hear of a tragedy on tv or read about an aweful brutal act of violence against an individual or a people? why do we all hurt? because we are them and they are us!! no matter what race, color, or even belief system...we all came from the same light, we all are connected and feel and rejoice and grieve through that universal bond that transcends time and space, and we all shall return to the source of that light, home. Nice inspiring post HyeBruin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Yes "Bruin - a nice very positive post...but a couple of things: What about Turks? Is there a flicker in them...the possibility of redemtion etc - in your eyes? And is it OK for an Armenian/Armenians to hate Turks when many/most? may be perfectly fine/good folks etc And I do think that there are just bad/wicked people. Ones who know that they are - and perhaps even revel in it...and those who might think they are good people - but are real SOBs or worse (and who think of no one but themselves and are/are willing to to anything to other for their own gain/merryment or what have you...I don't see any chance of grace for these sorts of people...though I can accept the fact that a few might see the errors of their ways and change...but most do not... I do however believe that most of us though are fundementally good - and like you said - we can feel the pain and have empathy for others And I also agree that going through the motions (of religion - as in attending church etc) is far less valuable than internalizing lessons and figuring out that one should do good things for others etc - on ones own. Anyway - you may have figured out by now that I'm not a believer...but I think if more folks expressed their belief as you have - so positvely - then maybe I could say I see value in such... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Domino - sorry - but I still don't see #7 or even any of the rest - as certancies...even with your empiricle evidence of your own self conciousness...I still contend that you could be being fooled (into even believeing that your thoughts are your own...and all the rest...just like perhaps if a computer was to become self aware but could only carry out its programs...it might think that it has a mind with free will (that it is carrying out the programs because that is its wish) etc - but that would be an illusion. And even our perception of reality - we can only see to a certain level - though we contend (believe) that there are elcrtons and protons & such all moving around - that if we could see/percieve this level - we would look to be very different that the "reality" of what we consider ourselves to be...(make any sense)... And finally - why do you bother talking to us anyway? (likely figments of your immagination & such)...and certainly your expectation of our ability to process your wisdom must be rather low...and at best highly uncertain...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Domino - sorry - but I still don't see #7 or even any of the rest - as certancies...even with your empiricle evidence of your own self conciousness...I still contend that you could be being fooled (into even believeing that your thoughts are your own...and all the rest...just like perhaps if a computer was to become self aware but could only carry out its programs...it might think that it has a mind with free will (that it is carrying out the programs because that is its wish) etc - but that would be an illusion. And even our perception of reality - we can only see to a certain level - though we contend (believe) that there are elcrtons and protons & such all moving around - that if we could see/percieve this level - we would look to be very different that the "reality" of what we consider ourselves to be...(make any sense)... And finally - why do you bother talking to us anyway? (likely figments of your immagination & such)...and certainly your expectation of our ability to process your wisdom must be rather low...and at best highly uncertain...LOL Thoth, to be fooled, I must exist. If I do not exist, how can I be fooled of my own existance. And your example of the self-aware computer is an example, if the computer was to be self-aware, to be fooled of the illusion, he must be aware of being fooled... So at the end, we end up that consciencenous for sure exist. As for I exist, in order to be fooled of my own existance, again I should exist to be fooled of my own existance, if I were to not exist, I could not be fooled that I exist... Suppose your example of the dream you gave in another place, even if we were the dream of another, in order that the dream itself be self-aware, it should be self-aware of its own existance, therefore, being self-aware proves that I do exist, what I am really, the dream of another? Suppose that I am the dream of another person, the moment I realise of existing, this does not change anything, since in order for the dream to know of its existance, this dream must exist. The observer, and the one being observed. I am an observer, this is a certainty, I see, I observe with my vision, I hear, I observe with my ears, I touch, I observe with my hands(and other parts of my body ) etc... even remembering thing, is observing, it is observing what is in my brain... There is at the very least one observer, I exist, I know I exist, therefore I am an observer, because to know of my own existance, I must be able to observe my existance. There is at least one thing to be observed... if I can't touch anything, if I can't see anything, if there is nothing to remember, if there is nothing(that means, that even me don't exist), I could not be self aware, because I could not exist in the first place, and just the fact that I do exist(call that a dream that is self-aware, whatever, it does not change anything) proves that there is at least one thing to be observed, that would be me. Now, comming to the point 6) that uncertainties exist, if only those 7 points are certainties, automatically everything else would be uncertainties, making uncertainties exist. The last point, certainties exist, the 6 first one being certainties would make certainties existing, and the 7nt point reporting that would be another certainties. So, you can take it the way you want, make us all illusions, make us all dreams, this won't in any way affect the conclusion about the fact that this 7 points are the foundamental 7 Universal certainties(Descartes was missing 6 of them ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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