Sasun Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 I have a question. A lot of people say they would like to believe in God but they are not sure that it is true. So they say that proof is necessary to believe. So my question is, let's say you have one opportunity of having a proof that God exists, and you can choose as to what kind of proof it should be. Have you ever thought about it? A lab experiment, a mathematical formula, God talking to you, someone you trust testifying that God exists, etc. etc. etc. ?So, can you desribe what such proof should look like for you to believe that God exists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 First we need a "definition" of God. If it is in fact the force that set anything and everything in place, then there can be no proof since it, in and of itself, is its own proof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 First we need a "definition" of God. If it is in fact the force that set anything and everything in place, then there can be no proof since it, in and of itself, is its own proof Well then God exists? Maybe my question should have been: define God that you doubt could exist, then describe the proof you would like to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 There is no God(s)....waste of time - IMO...but go ahead & have at it - if it means something to you... No don't go asking me to just prove that there is no god(s)....that would be questioning my (lack of) faith....LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 There is no God(s) What about Thoth? I thought you believed in pagan Gods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Sasun - well yes - at the very least I believe that they are useful (as) archetypes - to illustrate certain natural laws and other such things. Were they once (or currently?) based on some visitng aliens or such - perhaps - I really don't know - and am somewhat interested - I find these lines of investigation intruiging...but basically they have no bearing on my day-to-day exsistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 There is no God(s)....waste of time - IMO...but go ahead & have at it - if it means something to you... No don't go asking me to just prove that there is no god(s)....that would be questioning my (lack of) faith....LOL I don't get it again Thoth, I have no problem with Sip rejection of a God, because I understand his reason of rejecting it and his consistance. BUT! In your cases, it isen't. You do believe yourself of the possibility of intuitions or such forces that goes beyond the bound of the physical world as we know. But still, when someone bring his faith, you reject it and answer there is no God, when your own take on the paranormal would not make the belief in God any more ridiculous. On the other hand, I do believe that Sasuns question is again irrelevant, God exist if you believe of its existance, its existance as well is dependent of your own definition of what it is. I came to a conclusion, that neither the one that believe or the other that don't could claim to pocess the truth, in fact, just the fact that we do believe or reject it, proves in a way that God can exist and not in the same time. I do not wish to continue on the reason why I do believe this right now. The reader just has to think about something, if you believe in God, you reject a reality which accept no God, if on the other hand you do not believe in God, you reject another reality in which this God exist. Everyone has to find his answers, everything exist, you just decide to accept one channel over others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Domino, it is quite puzzling how you can live with your theory of subjective reality (if I may call it so) without contradictions. So if I don't believe that New York City exists then it doesn't exist? How can you believe is such thing? I mean, fine if you believe in that, then you have to believe in everything. For example, I may believe that people have 25 heads and 57 hands. Could it be true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 (edited) Domino, it is quite puzzling how you can live with your theory of subjective reality (if I may call it so) without contradictions. So if I don't believe that New York City exists then it doesn't exist? How can you believe is such thing? I mean, fine if you believe in that, then you have to believe in everything. For example, I may believe that people have 25 heads and 57 hands. Could it be true?Not contradicting at all. Suppose that once a Guru come, and that everyone believe in him as the words of a God, EVERYONE!!! The Guru thinks himself he is the words of God. Who is to tell he is not? You judge my theory because you do believe like the large majority of humanity that I do have one head, you do have one head etc... But if you were to believe that humans have 2 heads and that everyone else in this planet was to believe that humans had two heads, who would tell that it is not the cases? What makes truth the truth, is what humans have agreed as the truth. Lets give an example... if everyone was to be schizophrenic, schizophrenics with the same exact psychosis, they each see another head. Whom is to tell that this head does not exist? We consider normal that an object fall to the ground because of gravity, we consider normal that because of this forces Earth revolve around the Sun. This is a conformism build by experience, this experience is acquired during your life time, the little child realise that when he trow an object, this object will end up in the floor, no matter how he trow... this become experiences, this experiences is acquired from what we do observe, not from what we don't. There is probably BILLIONS, TRILLIONS, TRILLIONS OF TRILLIONS OF TRILLIONS types of particules that exist that we have ni idea of their existance, because they do not react with us, they do not react with matter, more exactlly they do not react in a way with matter that we could detect this reaction... since those types of particules don't react with us, from experiences, we do know that they won't react with us. Comming to the brain, and the interface with reality. A schizophrenic thinks like he thinks because of the way his brain process information, the way he do translate what he do observe, this is all about interpretation of reality. The psychosis that this schizophrenic has, for him is the truth. Is it the truth? No, because you do say it is not, there is people to say it is not... but for him, he is convinced that it is the truth. The brain is made of neurons that are made of amino acids etc... that they are made of molecules, those molecules are made of atoms, the atoms are made of sub-atomic particules, so the way those atoms will connect, the molecules will connect etc... will make the schizophrenic thinks how he thinks, the result, that is the thinking comes from a physical process which is real. It comes from Quantum states. Quantum states creats only possibilities, and if this possibility could not exist, you could not think about it, what the brain is, it is a filter that filter and build a scenarion over billions of billions of possibilities, what natural selection has done is to write a software, a kind of key to process the information in a way and not others, we can call this a selective psychosis. If you don't have faith in something, you won't have results. Edited November 4, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Domino, lets leave schizophrenics alone because first of all we don't know how exactly their brain functions, second of all they are a deviation from normal and we don't really to refer to them (certainly while counting heads ). We are talking about normal people. I don't need the majority of people to tell me there are two heads while I can count myself and see 1 head only. These things are not relative and subjective. I think you at least believe in mathematics. So is 2+2=5 or not? Just tell me if this can be true at all. I don't know a thing about brains but I don't think that anyone has proven that there are quantum processes going on in the brain. As much as I know those are only chemical processes, and even those processes have not been studied well. As for gurus I don't think you have the right idea of them. Actually there are not that many gurus so that could be the reason. I don't know many gurus either. I know only one guru well enough and I know he is a real one. He never says that he has God's words. And he discourages someone to take anything as blind belief (as you are suggesting that they do). People should not be blamed for wrong reasons If you don't have faith in something, you won't have results. Well I believe so in other ways but what does it have to do with your points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 It is my conviction that what one believes should be kept private as possible otherwise man will beat the crap out of you for believing something different then themselves! Sasun why debate about something which is dear to you. Are you insecure in your belief? I am a believer and that is that.I seek and I find... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...+invented+bread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Wooo hooo !!! That was my first thread and post ever on hyeforum!!!! Brings back good memories of my younger days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Armat, I like talking about this stuff. Why insecure? I don's see the point. I was thinking lately, you know a lot of people watn proof of God, but I suspect if they were given exactly the proof they wanted they would doubt again the very proof that they were asking for. So that is why I asked the question.Now that nobody dared to formualte such proof, I can safely declare that I hold all the proof they might want to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Domino, lets leave schizophrenics alone because first of all we don't know how exactly their brain functions, second of all they are a deviation from normal and we don't really to refer to them (certainly while counting heads ). We are talking about normal people. I don't need the majority of people to tell me there are two heads while I can count myself and see 1 head only. These things are not relative and subjective. I think you at least believe in mathematics. So is 2+2=5 or not? Just tell me if this can be true at all. I don't know a thing about brains but I don't think that anyone has proven that there are quantum processes going on in the brain. As much as I know those are only chemical processes, and even those processes have not been studied well. As for gurus I don't think you have the right idea of them. Actually there are not that many gurus so that could be the reason. I don't know many gurus either. I know only one guru well enough and I know he is a real one. He never says that he has God's words. And he discourages someone to take anything as blind belief (as you are suggesting that they do). People should not be blamed for wrong reasons Well I believe so in other ways but what does it have to do with your points? I won't let the schizophrenics alone in science exeptions are important, things that are not the norme are important, it is important to study them, in physioneurology it is very important to study those cases, because they give answers to us about how the brain works. As far as mathematic is concerned, I know that there is only one truth about 1+1=2, I will never reject mathematic, it is like my God, it is one of the biggest misteries for me, the first one is consciencenous, the second is why mathematic is so perfect, it is what there is as the most perfect thing in the Universe, in short, it is as perfect as the conception of a perfect God you have. I do think you do not understand what I do mean, I was probably not clear in what I exposed. The way you do think, or that the majority of people think, what we call logic, is an immitation of what mathematic is... mathematical equalities, things that are mathematically possible can be possible, I am not saying that things that are not mathematically possible exist, like I told you before in another thread, when I say everything exist, there is a condition for their existance, they must be mathematically logical. What I mean by this, is that, one person, plus another person, or better, one thing plus another thing, must be equal to two thing... those are foundamental mathematic truths that must be respected in every possibilities, I think that even if I was not clear in most of the things I exposed, I was clear about this one, I said that in my presentation of the multiple Universe theory, one thing remains as the Ultimate truth, one thing that every Universe have in common, is that they have all to respect foundamental mathematic, if they were to not respect foundamental mathematics they won't react with our Universe, if they don't, you won't be able to choose such Universe as your choice of the Universe in which you leave. I was as well maybe not clear about consciencenous, because consciencenous is the key to understand my theory of the Universe... consciencenous exist because each Universe that pup up, to exist and remain must be able to record informations, the recording information is kept in sub-atomic particules, for example, electrons react in a way, and not other ways... the Universe act exactly like our brain.... the brain build consciencenous, or more exactlly the mind, once the mind exist, it modify the brain and has a control over it, once the brain is modified it affect the mind etc... In short, the mind has to keep its existance to memory, this is why the brain must be modified, if the mind had no capability to modify the brain or a medium, you could not self reflect yourself, self-reflectivness exist because of the process by which the mind can modify to survive. The same goes exactly for the Universe, Once from nothingless there is an inflation, and a Universe comes to life, this Universe will build particules, those particules will react in a way, and not others, a limited possibility, among infinit possibilities, the reason why those particules will react in ways and not others, is because that universe came to life in a way, and not another way, why is this Universe different than the majority of the other Universes? Because of it's particules, it is those tiny little things that makes a Universe different, it is the way they react, that it makes that universe really different than the majority of other universes, in somme, those particules are the memory of the universe, they have been created because of the way the universe has been created... once those particules have been created, they have a direct impact on the universe, exactly the same ways as the mind has an impact on the brain, the mind result from the brain, yet once it is created, it impact the brain, it modify it to exist. If the paticules could not modify the Universe, time won't exist, because only by the change of their position, they modify the universe, if they were to not change their position, and be left statistic, the mind could not exist, consciencenous could not exist, consciencenous exist because of the possibility of the particules to modify the Universe by their movement, in order to creat consciecenous, and once consciencenous is created it creats the illusion of time, consciencenous creats time. By this time, you are probably telling yourself, what the hell all this has anything to do with my theory, that by believing something, it is the truth for you. Like I told you, what makes the Universe what it is, is because of the position of the particules, their movements, they act as memories which are modified(by their position etc...) in order for you to believe something, those particules have to take a position among many others, and since the Universe is what it is because of what the particules do of it, your belief necessarly creats your own universe by the particules that take position to make you believe what you do believe. If everyone were to think that we have all 2 heads, there must be a reason why we do believe it, the reason is because of the positions that those particules have taken, to make you believe what you do believe... the mind record, the mind modify the brain, it modify the position of the particules to keep in memory what it believes... it is a cycle, the brain(the particules) build the mind, the mind modify the brain to survive, in order to survive it needs to creat a medium by witch it survive, this medium is the illusion of time. Now, comming to the schizophrenic which believe in his psychosis, the reason he believes in it is because of the particular positions of the particules, call it chimistry, but the brain cells are what they are because of their constituants... those little tiny particules... so, this schizophrenic is not believing something that is really false, in his universe, this possibility really exist, because if it does not, the position those particules could take to creat his reality could not exist, but it does exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 I think that my post in the thread that Sip referenced prety much somes it up for my position here. (Its on the last page BTW...as well as some interesting/relevant follow up). I also want to note that I was the first to welcome you Sip - how 'bout that! I am going to repost my first post from that thread here - but do encourage all those who are interested to read some of the others there as well (my posts I mean- who really cares what anyone else thinks... - LOL [just joking of course...]: Sip - welcome and nice post. After reviewing the preceeding discussions in detail I have a few things to say: 1)bread (like many inventions) was seemingly an accident For those who have not seen James Burk's TV series' - "Connections" and "The day the universe changed" - I highly recommend them)...and it seems reasonably accepted that beer came first. (based on the earliest writings...a recepie for beer) it seems that the ancients observed fermentation from wild grains that had been gathered and attempted to standardize it and make it more reliably available. Agriculture and the making of bread seem to have been (byproducts) spurred on by developments begun by the desire for a more steady supply of beer (much like the sucess of videos & the vcr [& possibly the internet...not sure on the later] due to P O R N O) 2) Evolution - is observable all around us. It is basically fact - as well as a thing can be known and accepted by man (IMO). Watch a National Geographic (or the like) special on the adaptation/transformation of Birds to certain specific environments (for instance). (The determination of species differation is somewhat arbitrary however - but observable environmentally determinstic changes have been sufficient to cause new species [split off from previous existing] to be named). Also - I have a buddy who does/did genetic work on fruit flies because their generational turnover (life/reproduction etc) is so short and mutations can be observed - specifically including those that take (and thus perpetuate) based on specific environmental advantages. BTW - I have developed a varient on the commonly accepted phrase used to describe the process of evolution: "survival of the fittest" - mine: "survival of the fattest" ...you figure it out... 3) Though I am (self) called THOTH - I do not feel qualified to answer your (this threads) ultimate question - "Does God exist?" (The answer to) this question is well beyond (even!) me (I mean I can't even spell properly...so really now)...and I believe human beings (in our current state of evolution!) lack both mental capacity to properly even frame the question(s) and could not comprehend the answer(s) even if one/they could be had (particularly given the possible characteristcs of such a being/beings/entitie(s)/construct and the process's involved (in Universe/Multiverse/reality creation). I do believe that there is more than one question here (going back to the initial theme) - consiting of some shades of gray and not just black and white. And we might do better dividing them up to focus our (ultimatly [iMO] senseless, but perhaps enjoyable(?)) discussion/debate. Here are some possible subdivisions (and I am sure there are many more): Does/do (a) supreme entity(s) exist that somehow created the Universe as we know it? (sub question - is there really meaning in contemplating the sex {as we know it} to such (a) being(s)?) Do we know/can we really define this universe? Are there others? Did the entity(s) create them as well? Was this a conscious effort or a byproduct of something else (that I think almost by definition we cannot/are not {yet} capable to understand..in any event)? Do/does this being/beings care (about the creation and to what degree? Does it have a purpose? Does it include us? Are we central to it? Is it beyond us? Are we (just) byproducts or stepping stones? Do/does it/they really manage things? At what level? Predestination - fact or fiction (etc)? Are moral issues among humans (etc) really a concern? Do we have them right? Or are they just a human/mortal thing? Do any religious books (seemingly penned by man and certainly not perfect) really describe this/these beings in any way (that is remotely close to reality)? Are any/all (&/or which ones) of the various holy books of man truly inspired/penned by God/the gods? How can we know? Could this/these being(s) be deceptive on purpose? Does any of this really matter (to us)? Why? How can we know? Does imploring the devine for favorable treatment have any real effect? What is/are the proper means (if any)? (ie. blood sacrifice/self flaggelation/prayer wheels/offerings/chanting etc etc) Is fear (of death/punishment etc) truly a noble and sufficient motivator? Can only one version (of reality & God(s) etc) be true? Who has the capacity to ever know which one (?) it is? Where does heresy/blashphemy fit in? How can we be sure that God/the Gods is/are good? (and has/have our best interests in mind?) Can we truly ever really know? Can there ever be a resemblance (in his/their image type thing) and "meeting of the minds" between beings of such obvious disparity in capabilites/motivations/world (reality) view - etc? etc etc I am a Daoist BTW. (we accept not knowing, basically...to [think you] know is not to know type of thing, as it cannot be known...etc) So there are questions - but no real (ultimate) answers. This being the case - how worked up should we really get? Peace. I think that is enough for now - my brain hurts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 (edited) EDITED: Thoth, you claimed that God does not exist on your post, but this is not a Daoist conception, a Daoist will have no answer here, but only accept ignorance. Edited November 4, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 THOTH, its an interesting post, and I can relate to some of the points (such as fear being not a good motivator). But you like others also didn't answer my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 THOTH, its an interesting post, and I can relate to some of the points (such as fear being not a good motivator). But you like others also didn't answer my question. But I DID answer your question in my Universe, you just don'y accept it as answer in yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Er what was the question again? And yes - I don't know...I just (believe that I) know - that everything everyone else believes is (by defination) wrong...(for some of the reasons I have given - unknowable and basically even unfathomable...etc)...so I am a bad Daoist...sue me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 But I DID answer your question in my Universe, you just don'y accept it as answer in yours. Domino, I have read half of your answer, let me finish then I will comment. But you should also devise a proof of God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Yea Thoth, once you asked me to prove that God exists, now I am asking you what kind of proof do you want? Suppose I can prove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Er what was the question again? And yes - I don't know...I just (believe that I) know - that everything everyone else believes is (by defination) wrong...(for some of the reasons I have given - unknowable and basically even unfathomable...etc)...so I am a bad Daoist...sue me... OK! I admit I am pulling your leggs. Sorry for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 OK - "proof" of God I did answer this - it is a silly question. Obviously if some being came to Earth and melted all weapons or such - or buildings/whatever - I don't know - prooved his/its power beyond comprehension - etc - I might say whoa - bad dude....etc...or if the same came down and cured all disease, stopped all wars etc etc etc...and perhaps then claimed all these things normally attributed to "God" - - "hey guys I'm the one - I created the universe - did all this stuff etc etc - yeah it was me..." ....well - I still wouldn't believe - LOL...I'd think - OK - powerful dude...maybe his heart is in the right place...but how couls he/it actually proove these things to us? Even if he implanted a movie of all of it in our brains or such...there is still room for sceptiscism - that we are being fooled...so I do not think we can ever "know" for sure - and our perceptions etc are always subject to manipulation - you can't believe what you see - even what you (think you) know...this is my postion and I'm sticking to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Yea Thoth, once you asked me to prove that God exists, now I am asking you what kind of proof do you want? Suppose I can prove It was a rhetorical question...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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