The Mongolian-armenian Connection

[khodja]

Dr. Dickran Kouymjian of Fresno State will be giving a lecture at 2 PM Saturdayat LA County Museum of Art.

[Artaxias]

What is this about?

There is no connection.

[Arpa]

What is this about?

There is no connection.

The connection is in the IQ, or the lack thereof.

Some people insist we are "mongoloid". Oops! That is not PC anymore. It is racist. The correct term is Down Syndrome.

I am still waiting to see what the significance is if we had Mongolian blood. Would it enhance or retard our geniology? Would our "kin" the Mongolians come to our recue?

There is no denial, it is a well recorded fact that the Mongols did invade the Russian lands, the Caucasus and even eatsern Europe, we did have friction with them we even collaborated with them, see Hye Monghol Dashnagir (Armenian Mongolian Treaty). And as a secondary effect we did have mixture of blood. Once a again, what is the value of that?

[Sip]

I personally wouldn't mind at all if our xhorovats had a hint of the taste of mongolian BBQ. I just love that stuff ... especially in the "all-you-can-eat" form.

[Artaxias]

You couldn't be further off, I hope you are being sarcastic.

 

There is a non-White Armenian MINORITY with slight Mongol and Semitic features due to the various invasions by these savages but that's about. Russians East of Ural are a lot more mixed than the Armenian nW MINORITY.

[gamavor]

Dear Arpa,

 

You are (as usual) right on the point. Some people obviously are not comfortable with their looks or genetics, and the most unpunishable place to spit their venom is among Armenians. Usually those are people with mix parents (nothing wrong with that), who are ready to embrace all kinds of fake theories to become more Armenians. Instead of proving that Armenians have something in common with other people, why those people don't spare efforts to prove that it is vice-verse ; Greek have something in common with Armenians, Persians, Mongols, Russians, Europeans, Jews, etc..

 

I personally believe that the only people Armenians have something in common with are the other Armenians.

 

It took centuries for Hayassa Azzy, Nairi people, Armens, and the rest of the Aryan tribes living in the Armenian plateau to amalgamate.

[Artaxias]

I personally believe that the only people Armenians have something in common with are the other Armenians.

 

It took centuries for Hayassa Azzy, Nairi people, Armens, and the rest of the Aryan tribes living in the Armenian plateau to amalgamate.

That's right.

 

Greeks, Persians/Parthians(not Iranians) and Slavs but there is no racial/ cultural similarity or mixing with Semites or Mongols (there is a minority of Armenians with those features but every other ethnic group has it).

 

I think we have done a damn good job preserving our racial makeup and and language, considering the fact that so many tried to destroy us.

 

Look at Iran and compare them with us.

They lost their language, racial identity and culture.

[khodja]

Get Serious. There was even a Mongol Armenian Queen or two. Ten of thousands of Christian Jews assimilated into the Armenians in the fourth century and Jewish converts to Loosavorchagan again in the twelfth century. Do you know how many Armenians are part-Assori? At least 50% of the Armenian friends of my youth were part Assori.

[gamavor]

Hagarag,

 

First, I don't feel comfortable calling you khodja, because at times you are devote Protestant, at times you are orthodox Jew, and at times you are atheist.

Second, I hadn't had even the slightest suspicion that you would jump in again in this discussion.

Third. We all know why, and we like you as you are.

 

Back on the point. The assimilated Jews that you are talking about were no more than 10 000 people, settled west of lake Van, during the reign of Tigran The Great. During the Christianization period there were probably another few hundreds, persecuted Jewish Christians who found save heaven in Armenia.

At different times there were another migrations, but this time the Jews in Armenia preserved their heritage, names, traditions, religion etc. . I think Michael Stone was the professor who conducted a study on this issue, based on old Jewish cemetery close to Meghri district.

[Artaxias]

Get Serious.  There was even a Mongol Armenian Queen  or two. Ten of thousands of Christian Jews assimilated into the Armenians in the fourth century and Jewish converts to Loosavorchagan again in the twelfth century. Do you know how many Armenians are part-Assori? At least 50% of the  Armenian friends of my youth were part Assori.

There are no Mongol Armenians or Assyrian Armenians!

 

If someone that claims to be an Armenian has features other than Europoid than he or she is not an Armenian, as far as race is concerned.

 

This is what you are talking about:

http://languageportraits.net/panels/images/Armenian-Photo2.jpg

The man in the picture has very olive dark looking skin and curly black hair. here's a Semitic/Mongoloid mixed so called 'Armenian'. Thats a big difference from even Mediterranean Europoids!

am pretty sure they could identify his race to be some kind of turkic or one of the tons of different ethic groups in the near east. Notice how his eyes are set rather close together, it does serve to indicate middle eastern ancestry.

 

These are Armenians:

http://www.arams.com/Meet_Aram_s/Armenians_of_the_North_Bay/22910023_2002.jpg

http://members.fortunecity.com/whitepride1/whitepride/whitepride/images/154406-1296[1]_jpg.jpg

 

Dinaric, and 100% Armenian, I hope you

can see the difference!

 

 

More pictures of Armenians:

http://members.fortunecity.com/whit...ride/whitepride

 

 

Arab armies did breiefly surge through Anatolia in the 8th Century AD and for a time even besieged Constantinopel by land and sea.

However the Byzantine Empire not only broke the Arab siege, but decisively defeated the Arabs and ejected them from Anatolia.

It would remain to the Turks to Islamizize Anatolia, and even they would not really begin this process in earnest until the epochal defeat of the Byzantine Armies at Manzikert in far eastern Anatolia in 10 71 AD.

That said some Arabs are present in extreme Southeastern Turkey, and in very small numbers in the Caucascus. Their cultural influence in the Islamicized part of the Caucasus was and is important, however their genetic influence is not.

The Armenians are a mixture of Greeks and the extinct Hittites, both Aryan peoples. Of course, other minior influences cannot entirely be ruled out, but there is no doubt that by any objective standard we Armenians are very much An Aryan people, and have a very old, complex and wonderful culture.

 

One more thing.

Im quite certain then that you will be able to elicuidate the Negroid/Mongoloid/Dravidian characteristics on these people that exclude them from the Armenian classification.

No ones denying that places like Iran have experienced some racial admixture, but how does this prove that everybody there is racially mixed?

The Northern fringes of Central Africa have experienced some admixture at times with Caucasoids, but no rational person would call places like Mail, Niger, anything but Black.

Of course you dont have to accept Iranians, even blatently Aryan ones if you dont want to, thats your right. But its intellectual dishonesty at its worst to put a place like Iran in the same classification as a truly mixed place like the Dominican Republic.

To place Armenians in this classification is even more out there. Apart from everything else Armenians have long been a part of the West culturally.

Edited June 13, 2003 by Artaxias

[khodja]

I agree with you that these differences are regional. The Semitic Armenians come mainly from two cities, Van and Diarbekir (wrongly known as Dicranakert as the site of the true Dicranakert is further the East and has not been unearthed). Even In the late 19th century the rural Armenians near Van would refer to the Armenians of Van as Jews. The Asiatic Armenians come mainly from Giligia, whose nobles mixed blood with the Mongols and from other areas where Mongol soldiers impregnated the indigenous Armenian women. However, the question of what happened to the historic Jews of the ROA region is still being researched.

 

There are also Armenians who appear to be very Celtic from regions further west in Anatolia.

[gamavor]

Atraxias DuDE,

 

Where did you get these .....

 

Hell I'm going to Armenia

 

MosJan knows why!

 

 

http://members.fortunecity.com/whitepride1...ide/whitepride/

Edited June 13, 2003 by gamavor

[THOTH]

I fail to understand this need by some Armenians to see themselves as "white" "whiter" or whatever - and that through this they somehow see themselves superior to others or some such. In fact I see the pre-occupation with this sort of thought to be a bit disgusting.

 

I am half Armenian - with my other half being mixed Northern European (think white-white) (though I do tan very very well - and rarely burn....and am happy to be a "mud person" LOL). I have no issue with my mixed Europeans roots - and I have some pride/identification with my other lineages - but I think being Armenian is more special in and of itself then any association with other "whiter" or whatever ethnicity.

 

I just don't understand the need for any Armenian to feel that they have to identify with Europeans/Caucasians or what not to give them a greater sense of self worth or superiority. This whole concept is alien to me. I think we should be proud of who we are - not because we exhibit some particular racial characteristic (OK - maybe the nose...LOL) or affiliation - but simply because we are Armenians. Our record of achievement and artistry and inovation stands by itself IMO. Obviously we are a bit of a mix...but it is our cultural legacy that should be important and our identification/affiliation with being an Armenian - regardless. These racial concerns strike me as somewhat ugly IMO...and reminiscant of the Nazis and others with racial beliefs that are/were used to elevate themselves in their own eyes and de-huminize others. These type of views makes one a lesser person - not a greater one IMO.

 

And BTW - on my Grandfather's side - he and his family had flaming red hair. It has only passed as a tint/highlight inot later generations...but I always found this interesting. This, the presence of blonds, dark curly hair, and various other attributes is a testament that we are a mixed lot - racially - but we are all still Armenian - regardless - and this is what is important....

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

I must have overlooked your posting.

 

That I have ever claimed to be an Orthodox Jew or an atheist is a figment of your imagination.

 

I have stated that I was raised as a Protestant from a family whose members had previously been Armenian Catholic and Loosavorchagan. I have stated that I now am enamored with the Eastern religious thought. ATHEIST? Do you consider Zen Buddhism atheist?

[Artaxias]

Atraxias DuDE,

 

Where did you get these .....

 

Hell I'm going to Armenia

 

MosJan knows why!

 

 

http://members.fortunecity.com/whitepride1...ide/whitepride/

Hey let me know if you ever decide to go to Armenia.

I visit Armenia twice a year where I own a business and meet with nationalist organizations like the Armenian Front, Aryakan Bruntsk and the Armenian Aryan Party.

 

The women are gorgeous and you will remove the word 'boring' from your vocabulary in general.

[khodja]

Artaxias,

 

If you look in the Armenian Aryan picture website you have refered to, there is a picture of three beautiful Armenian women on the left a few rows down (picture 127816-2440 (1) jpg). The woman at the left looks like a Kermanatzi, the woman in the middle would not strand out at all in Mexico City and the woman at the left looks very Asian. I have perused the other photos and concluded that genetically we are a mixed bag, primarily Caucasoid but with significant non-Caucasoid strains. Drop the Aryan brotherhood BULLSHIT. In LA we are considered people of color. No one considers us white.

[Artaxias]

I fail to understand this need by some Armenians to see themselves as "white" "whiter" or whatever - and that through this they somehow see themselves superior to others or some such. In fact I see the pre-occupation with this sort of thought to be a bit disgusting.

 

"I fail to understand this need by some Irish to see themselves as White Whiter or wahtever blah blah...."

 

Does this make sense? Absolutely not.

 

It's a matter of preserving your heritage along with cultural and racial identity.

Nobody ever said anything about superiority. You said it; therefore, it's your complex.

Such multi-cultural and Armophobic statements with a kosher seal of approval make me sick.

 

I am half Armenian - with my other half being mixed Northern European (think white-white) (though I do tan very very well - and rarely burn....and am happy to be a "mud person" LOL). I have no issue with my mixed Europeans roots - and I have some pride/identification with my other lineages - but I think being Armenian is more special in and of itself then any association with other "whiter" or whatever ethnicity.

 

Once again, it is you who is spouting this nonsense about shades of color!

You are talking about what the modern media says and slams the idea of race, that a white race does not exist and blames the 'angry White man' for preaching 'hate'. If there was no White Race, there could be no such thing as a White male, angry or otherwise.

 

The fact that there are different types of whites, and that there are certain areas where race mixing has blurred the lines through the invasions of various savages mainly semites and mongols, is used to try and prove that there is no White Race at all.

 

 

I just don't understand the need for any Armenian to feel that they have to identify with Europeans/Caucasians or what not to give them a greater sense of self worth or superiority. This whole concept is alien to me. I think we should be proud of who we are - not because we exhibit some particular racial characteristic (OK - maybe the nose...LOL) or affiliation - but simply because we are Armenians. Our record of achievement and artistry and inovation stands by itself IMO. Obviously we are a bit of a mix...but it is our cultural legacy that should be important and our identification/affiliation with being an Armenian - regardless. These racial concerns strike me as somewhat ugly IMO...and reminiscant of the Nazis and others with racial beliefs that are/were used to elevate themselves in their own eyes and de-huminize others. These type of views makes one a lesser person - not a greater one IMO.

 

Armenians cannot have a 'need' to identify with other Caucasians because Armenians are White and Europoid.

If you want to advocate multi-cultural rubbish than so be it, it's your right but there are those of who don't want to be extinct.

 

White Race (also called in contemporary anthropology as Europoid race) are the following: Nordic, Alpine and Mediterranean. Armenians belong to the Mediterranean sub-race of the white race and the Dinaric group mix of Alpines and Meds. A future for our people is mono-racial, but multi-ethnic where Whites of every nationality are represented, and where most Whites have at least two nationalities, and where admixture of White nationalities is an accomplished and irreversible fact. However, there must be no opposition against sub-races of White nationalities who want to keep themselves distinct. Unity is the only way to preserve the White Race and our culture. Political alliance is the key and a necessity.

 

The problem, which I think we have to face, is that in these parts of the world where there has been mixing for some time, people exist who are 100% white culturally but do have varying degrees of non-white intermixture with other Eurasian races.

 

Since this intermixture varies all the way from 0% to about 50% and since these other races are in any case far more similar physically to whites than (say) Africans are, there is no sharp line. And this is just something we are going to have to deal with.

 

Ultimately - paradoxically - the line round the white race will have to be "inked in" and made firm by a social or religious marker.

 

The final word on the "Who is White" argument you braught up.

 

Not only is this bickering destructive to us and helpful to our enemies it is also entirely unnecessary. It lowers moral for all, and those who try to persecute fellow Caucasians on this basis should be chastised. Nords, are not better than Meds, in this regard I don't see a differnec between a Swedish, germans and a Greek or Armenian. Period. Also insecure people should not exploit this topic either, which you did.

 

I don't want to live in a world which is broader version of the artifical state of 'Turkey.

 

The turkish race is an artificial grouping of peoples (cobbled together by multi-culturalists like you in an attempt to enlarge the racial extortion coalition) that includes many Whites of European origin, including Spaniards, Greeks, Armenians, Slavs mixed with many turkic peoples from Central Asia and Semites.

 

 

And yes I'm an optimist, I know that one day Armenians like you will wake up.

 

The white race consists of Alpine, Mediterranean and Nordic Europeans and their unadulterated diaspora.

 

People are not going to support my position if they believe that they may in the future be subject to deportation or worse.

This is not a delusional issue because there is no question that many in the past purporting to speak for us have excluded UNQUESTIONABLY WHITE EUROPEAN groups from the White family for reasons of nationality or religion, with zero historic or scientific justification. Like many so called "neo-Nazis" in relation to italians, Spaniards, Armenians, Greeks, Slavs etc.

Nor should any implication or suspicion of non-White ancestry or ill will be cast upon someone simply because they repeatedly adress this topic. Different persons with different backgrounds and perspectives will tend to stress certain issues more than other issues, this is neither unusual nor to be feared.

Aryans ought not to fear knowledge and the use of Aristotelian logic. If someone believes that another White is being overinclusive, or underinclusive in their definition of White, the proper course is to use our intellect to combat this error. This the logical way.

 

My post was intended for the use of minimizing friction, not creating one.

 

I think my biggest concern is that Armenians have seen only a little more than a generation or two pass and yet appear to have so lost their memory of the collective wisdom of our race that we now tend to re-invent the wheel at almost every turn. I'm not sure if it's simply unawareness or resistance to the "old ways" instead, but I am sure that we should reasonably be better off while using the tools and experience of our forebearers than repeatedly starting from scratch.

 

Is there room for differences of opinion among us as to, for example, the legalistic compromise worked into a statuatory scheme over the generations? Of course there is! Would simply re-establishing the continuity of our ancestors afford a convenient and sensible point of departure? Or are we better off to start from scratch?

 

Most seem to think me a very radical exponent of White Nationalism, yet in reality I am far more tolerant in a lot of ways then say the infamous "supremacists". I'm not Pan-Aryan either as I would not accept Iranians or Hindus as one with us. Not to say there is anything wrong with them.

 

I understand and respect your position, but my reaction to the same multicultism you have been subjected to has produced a somewhat different reaction. I guess Im just an optomist and triumphalist by nature, and I turn my rage towards RECONQUEST of all we have lost.

 

Yes, some of the rhetoric and tactics of more radical forms of Pan Aryanism may superficially resemble the language of Multiculturalism which you adore, but there is a crucial difference. That difference is that its among family, however badly the sands of time and unberable cultural assualts may have frayed those family connections.As long as the ties of blood and culture remain, regeneration is possible We only propose unity across religious, national, linguistic lines, and racial ones. And even in this instance there is nothing precluding Norway from remaining Nordic, Greece from remaining Hellenic, Armenia from remaining Armenian and individual Whites from having a preference for their own nationality, as long as they recognize other Whites as Whites, and stand as one with them against the enemy.

I myself like to sample the whole White smorgasboard, but I draw a sharp and clear line at racial boundaries. Besides, being uniracial, but highly multi ethnic, this is probably genetically programmed into me anyhow, and as such it would not even be healthy to fight it.

 

But when I see A White Berber, a White Turk, White Latin American, or White Iranian, come to me and seek kinship, and I see that they look just as we do, and seek the same things, and realize that their nations too are in the path of the multiculturalist monster, how can i deny them kinship?

If we abandon them, we all know that the wolves will in the end devour them as well. For make no mistake, our enemies have no intention of leaving any White genetic material left out of which we could reconstruct our civilization.

[khodja]

Sorry, picture I refered to is on the right not the left.

[THOTH]

Artaxias - your nuts. All of this you spout is complete gobblygook - of absolutly no value or merit. Talk of with us or against us - enemies and such - not including Indians/Hindi - whatever...its all nonsense - it has no meaning - except for you and your fellow paranoid supremacists (go ahead and deny - but this is what you are). You need to make this case for inclusion in this white/caucasian group to stoke your feeling of superiority - its obvious. Your putting down multiculturalis etc - well yes - I see this as the best thing - though I am for perserving cultural values as well - as people feel that they are still meaningful and valuable - and they are. But by eliminating these strict (false) divisions between peoples we are imporving understanding of one another (its not just "us" and "them") and imporving our chances of survival as a species (by lessening the irrationalities and intolerances that lead to war).

 

You, my friend are a sick puppy - and I hope a dinosaur. I don't think you'll find much sympathy for your twisted views beyond the few who like yourself lack self-confidence and an appreciation for the universiality of humanity and the fact that we are all in this together. No - its people like you who wish for and perhaps act upon this concept of exterminating another group of people because they are differewnt. Shame on you!

Edited June 13, 2003 by THOTH

[THOTH]

Oh and Atraxias - good luck at your next skinhead rally - chances are they will brand you just another mud person - and I've seen this from them and such concerning Armenians (even from your friendly slavs and others...) - so don't think you are any different then any other darky in the world - face it - Armenians are not - nor will they ever be - associated with the lilly white Nordic European types - not a chance. (and I reject these racial concepts anyway - they are basically unsupportable from any objective science....and I find your gobblygook science unconvincing - at best...)

 

I'm all for perserving culture and such - to a point. But you cannot live in the past. The world is becomming integrated - for bestter or worse (and I thik some/many aspects are worse...but what can be done?). People and humanity in general is changing - and at a rate like never before seen. Sometime in the not very distant future it is likely that all of your various arguments and such will have no meaning whatsoever to people...you can't stop time. Sure - if we have some major disaster - global nuclear or biological war or such - we might get plunged back inot a new dark age - ad have to start all over - but anything short of that - well - we are moving foreward and not backward - sorry - i know it makes you ncomfortable - as it does me - but that cannot be helped - its happening and nothing you or I can do is going to stop it....

[khodja]

There are among us those whose politics overwhelms reason. Fiscal conservatives are different than social conservatives. I am all for preserving Armenian culture. As assimilated as I am, I can speak Armenian and am familiar with our culture. Since I have learned much of our heritage through books, I do not hold the misconception that many Armenians have, passed to them by parents and grandparents. Luckily my parents and grandparents were educated. My grandmother was friends with Dolores Zohrab Liebmann, since their fathers were close friends in Bolise who both had the same fate under Turkish hands.

[Artaxias]

From now on I will address your unprovoked insults in the same hostile manner mr. paranoid schizo.

If you are not going to back up any of your outrageous bs with some sort of evidence I suggest you stfu. Thank god ignorant ‘Armenians’ like you are in the minority and in the diaspora. It’s ok for Jews to have a state just for jews, or some African nation to have country only for blacks but a White nation for Whites only is ‘racist’.

Hypocritical and illogical. Your favorite logical fallacy of generalizing from the characteristics of one individual to the characteristics of every individual within one group has led you astray once again.

 

Again your posts have no value nor did you show any form of intelligent thought. All you did is put words in my mouth and played a nice semantics game twisting my words and quoting me out of context. Well I can play those games too.

 

And regarding my appearance mr. paranoid multicultist freak. I have brown hair, blue eyes and I’m pale as a mofo. So speak for yourself ‘mud’.

 

Another idiotic statement you say you don’t accept the idea of race and then in another one of your childish sentences you say Armenians have nothing to do with something you just said doesn’t exist.

 

I don’t have the time nor the desire to ‘argue’ with ignorant and confused intellectual midgets like yourself.

[Harut]

Artaxias, dude, don't be obsessed with this too much. or your skin will get darker.

[THOTH]

I am not in favor of any State - including Isreal - to exist just for one race (or such). I think Isreal needs to be made more inclusive then it is...etc So dopn't go putting words/concepts in my mouth. Thogh why is it - with people like you - that you are always so quick to jump on Jews this Jews that - etc? Anyway I agree - there is no point to my talking with you - none at all...sweet (delusional) dreams...oh - one last point - I fear you are the distinct minority. Unlike you - if I were to discuss my thoughts and ideas with (most) Armenians - on the internet - or more importantly - in real life - they may or may not agree - but they would tend to respect my viewpoints as at least rational, thought out and meaningful...I'm afraid that most response to you would be just to turn away and shake their head...

[Harut]

Artaxias, watch your attitude and words.