Arpa Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Culture and MisCultureRemember my post about Ararat the film where I cited some symbolisms and clieches?Whether I brought this point or not, the fact that the customs officer insisted that the (film) cans contained illegal drugs was another symbolism. With good reason.During the seventies Turkey was repeatedly in the news, not as the "staunch ally" as it has been portryaed of late but as a pariah country, the major producer and transit route for illlicit drugs(Remeber Midnight Express?). The US tried its darndest to have them curb the trade. As always the US had to succumb to blackmail and donate zillions of dollars to have the farmers learn and employ another kind of agriculture. Has the experiment been successful? Has Turkey really cracked down on the illegal production and trade of dope?Of late the media is talking about the opium industry in Afghanistan. The people have gone back to their old mis-culture and some are wishing that the Taliban were in control during which regime opium cultivation was not only ignored, it was also encouraged and used as "cash crop". Did any one else observe the allegations and symbolism in the film Ararat? Below two of the stories among many. http://thepost.baker.ohiou.edu/archives3/a.../040502/b1.html http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-INCSR/97/Euro...ope/Turkey.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Yes, of course. When I have been to Turkey I have certainly seen many poppies growing about. I couldn't tell you if they are the "good" (or "bad") kind...(depending on your perspective I guess). What I did see a lot of for sure though - was sunflower seed production - unbelievable quantities of such growing in fields and piled up on the side of roads. Sorry i have no insight to your core question however...I have no idea really - though somhow I doubt that it (opium production) continues in any big (exportable) way in Turkey these days...seems like the Generals did eventually crack down on it hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I haven't seen Ararat, but either Egoyan is really behind his time, or it was part of the "fiction" of the rest of the movie. Modern America (not sure about Canada) checks with dogs. As simple as that. Every time I have been to the US I was greeted with dogs the second I stepped out of the plane. This part of the story-line in Ararat seems very improbable to me and I don't think it's fair to accuse Turkey of drug smuggling when they are hardly contributing a drop in the ocean in this business. Once again though, maybe it was part of Ararat's fiction. In other words, he used this scene to emphasize fiction throughout the whole movie, because it certainly has nothing to do with today's reality. Most of the drugs that are used in America come FROM America itself and nowhere else. As for sunflower seeds Thoth: know what you mean. They sell Turkish brands all over Holland as well, though only in supermarkets. Love their taste! Very addictive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I don't know if Turkey is in such a bright situation. However, even if, it ought to compare as nothing when compared to some of those Latin American countries. Ah, and let's not forget the FIELDS of stuff in Armenia and Karabagh, eh? So what is the real problem with the "stuff"?More so than the health, I think the important issue is where your money goes if you pay for this smuggled stuff. Face it, al Qaeda is known to have gone into the car restoration business to sponsor its activities. How can someone know that this money doesn't pass into the hands of these ugly people at some point down the chain? (Drug smuggling is conducted in chains.) That is why I am pissed off when I see people around me talking about how expensive the stuff is this year. It is pure irresponsibility. And if people were cooler with their kids and admonished them for serious things only instead of crying "Wolf! Wolf!" for every menial thing, society would be healthier and kids would know they had to listen when something was serious. The cultural dough is what makes it virtually impossible to legalize stuff here. On a side note - Canada has recently been blasted by the U.S. for its moves that go along the lines of Australia's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Stormy - some very good points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I actually support the legalization of recreational drugs. After all, the effects of drugs like marijuana are not all that different than alcohol - and yet alcohol consumption is not stigmatized and demonized to the extent of canabis. I figure we can take the same road as alcohol regulation in Canada for recreational drugs. Legalize possession, control domestic production & tax the consumers. It creates another revenue stream and althogh there certainly will be a spike in usage - i don't think that there will be a significant general increase of users in the population. After all - it's really not hard to get now, all we're changing is where it's being produced, and who's getting the proceeds. As stormy mentioned, if we can take some of the revenues out of the hands of organized crime & terrorist organizations, than we're all better off. I don't know nearly enough about the traffic of more illicit drugs (heroin and other opiates) to comment on Turkey's and Armenia's drug trade. Although, I'm pretty sure that marijuana doesn't figure as a significant component of Armenia's GDP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 vava - agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Yep. The more we take that revenue off kooks' hands, the better off we are. They will always find stuff to traffick (harder drugs, for example), but we'd still be better off because those ones aren't much in demand (or so I think).On a side note - I don't even use tobacco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Of course, I don't mean to say that legalizing stuff to avoid making smugglers rich is the answer. "Recreational drugs" as Vava reminds is the key. I don't want to be misunderstood. Bah. Chinese proverb of the day - Man who stand on toilet "high on pot." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I was not aware of any drug trading in Armenia. Don't mean to sound naive, but I did not think it was an issue at all.(I could be wrong). ANd I don't know about Turkey to comment(nor do I care in a way) In the US I do think that marijuana should be legalized. Maybe one goes to buy their supply from a drug store or something like so. The thing that worries me is that once people start using marijuana they always graduate to harder drugs and how does one control that. I don't think that many would be for legalization of cocaine or heroin. On a side note: I have never used any drugs.(outside of alcohol) and I do not get why anyone would resort to any drugs or smoking or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Culture and MisCultureRemember my post about Ararat the film where I cited some symbolisms and clieches?Whether I brought this point or not, the fact that the customs officer insisted that the (film) cans contained illegal drugs was another symbolism.The customs officer character didn't insist there were drugs in the canisters. It was the Armenian character (Raffi, I think his name was) that insisted there was not drugs but film in them. When they were opened there was, indeed, drugs within. If you are looking for symbolism, then how about this. In spite of all the contrary evidence and common sense, in the end Raffi says something like "I have to believe there is film in the canisters". Is Egoyan saying that the Armenian genocide story that Armenians accept is actually myth that has no relevance (and little or no truth) but that Armenians have to believe in it, because the truth is too awful for them to contemplate? If this is not what Egoyan is saying then how else can the so obviously fraudulant "history" that is prominantly displayed throughout this film be explained? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 If you are looking for symbolism, then how about this. In spite of all the contrary evidence and common sense, in the end Raffi says something like "I have to believe there is film in the canisters". Is Egoyan saying that the Armenian genocide story that Armenians accept is actually myth that has no relevance (and little or no truth) but that Armenians have to believe in it, because the truth is too awful for them to contemplate? I think I partially agree with you, steve.I have often thought about Raffi's naivity in accepting to bring cannisters of film from a stranger (at least that is his final confession - we never really 'know' what his motives were...) But suppose we accept the latter, in that case there is definitely a parallel between his belief that there were no drugs in the cans, and his longtime beliefs regarding his history. Egoyan's perspective is that of a diasporan Armenian who has been taught 'segments' of his history - teachings that create deep feelings towards ones cultural history - but at the same time, those historical lessons are never to be questioned. Raffi wants to believe - but he is challenged, and he has questions. At some point after he has seen Ani, he asks something like 'but where is the proof? there remains nothing' So I would go so far as to say that Egoyans is implying the AG is a myth - it certainly is not. But he IS challenging HOW armenians have been teaching their history to their youth through the generations, especially in diaspora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 ... The thing that worries me is that once people start using marijuana they always graduate to harder drugs and how does one control that..... I disagree. This is a myth... those that are predisposed, or have 'addictive' personalities will abuse just about anything. Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, whatever... To say that those that smoke canabis will inevitably 'graduate' to harder drugs like opiates is like saying those that drink lots of beer will 'graduate' to drinking moonshine, or rubbing alcolhol. It's simply not true. What IS true, is that IF someone is smoking dope ILLEGALLY, than they increase their exposure to other ILLEGAL elements - and by increasing contact to others who abuse harder drugs they may fall under that sphere of influence and abuse drugs themselves. Consequently, the legalisation of the possession of small quantities of marijuana, will remove the stigma associated with recreational drugs and 'clean-up' its image. Users will no longer be driven 'underground' and will reduce their exposure to more destructive influences.... just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I think I partially agree with you, steve.I have often thought about Raffi's naivity in accepting to bring cannisters of film from a stranger (at least that is his final confession - we never really 'know' what his motives were...) But suppose we accept the latter, in that case there is definitely a parallel between his belief that there were no drugs in the cans, and his longtime beliefs regarding his history. And in addition we have the "did he fall, was he pushed, did he jump" questions about the death of Ani's first husband. Questions which could be metaphors for questions about the fate of Armenians in 1915. Which is why I really dislike this film - Egoyan is too superficially clever for his (and the scripts) own good. Maybe after 100 or so films about the Armenian Genocide have been made there is a place for a film like Ararat, but not now. Seeing all those wine-guzzling, pseudo-intellectuals, preening and posturing in front of each other at the party in one of the early scenes made me think of how Egoyan would probably fit in with them very comfortably with that sort of crowd, and of how I'd like to go through them all with a really sharp chainsaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I disagree. This is a myth... those that are predisposed, or have 'addictive' personalities will abuse just about anything. Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, whatever... Vava, I did not believe you so I did a quick search on it on Google and the first page had links to studies done all over including by the RAND institute that clearly showed that it is a myth. I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 I think most in the community would be surprised to find how widespread drug use has become. 90% of the people I know (of my age) have tried weed at least once (some smoke on a regular basis). And these arnt just deadbeets, most are university students. Whats more worrying is the use of pills (ecstasy) and trips in nightclubs. These days you go to a proper nightclub (not bar) and almost everyone is on somethin, and they would have to be, no other way of listening to head-shattering bass for hours on end without getting a migrane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 ...everyone is on somethin, and they would have to be, no other way of listening to head-shattering bass for hours on end without getting a migrane. That's right What's disconcerting for me is that drugs are getting into the hands of kids at a younger ages... and as Jugs just posted, it's not JUST canabis - MDMA (ectasy) GHB, Special K (ketamine), even LSD and more traditional amphetamines are being used - and sometimes abused - by 'tweens'... When I was that age, I didn't even know what beer tasted like! This is a problem that legalisation/regulation won't even come close to solving. This is an attitudinal problem of modern westen society. These kids (not all of them, of course!) are bored, they don't have enough appropriate stimulation, and they lack nothing - in other words, they're spoiled! Most of them come around eventually - but many never appreciate their good fortune, and end up blowing it... Oh well - that's it for my rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 I disagree. This is a myth... those that are predisposed, or have 'addictive' personalities will abuse just about anything. Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, whatever...Vava, I did not believe you so I did a quick search on it on Google and the first page had links to studies done all over including by the RAND institute that clearly showed that it is a myth. I stand corrected. Yeah, I guess it happens once in a while (but it's oh so rare!) when I'm right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 I disagree. This is a myth... those that are predisposed, or have 'addictive' personalities will abuse just about anything. Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, whatever...Vava, I did not believe you so I did a quick search on it on Google and the first page had links to studies done all over including by the RAND institute that clearly showed that it is a myth. I stand corrected. Yeah, I guess it happens once in a while (but it's oh so rare!) when I'm right you know what sucks is that it has been forced into our heads that pot smokers soon graduate into hard core drugs that I did not even think that it was not true. But statistic that RAND Institute had was that 1 out of 104 pot smokers move on to hard drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 (edited) Vava, kids as young as 12 do bulbs (inhale concetrated NO2 - 'laughing gas' - literally makes you insane for 1 minute), and that stuff is 10 times more dangerous than weed, but you can buy it at the supermarket. Edited May 6, 2003 by Accelerated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 (edited) Vava, kids as young as 12 do bulbs (inhale concetrated NO2 - 'laughing gas' - literally makes you insane for 1 minute), and that stuff is 10 times more dangerous than weed, but you can buy it at the supermarket.That just shows that one can abuse just about anything... there were kids in my high-school that inhaled glue fumes (huffing) and one kid died when he 'overdosed' on inhaling PAM (you know, the no-stick cooking spray). Sad. Edited May 6, 2003 by vava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 attitudinal The ring in that word - just reminded me- Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Vava, kids as young as 12 do bulbs (inhale concetrated NO2 - 'laughing gas' - literally makes you insane for 1 minute), and that stuff is 10 times more dangerous than weed, but you can buy it at the supermarket. The world should enact a sanction against itself and immerse itself in darkness just like they imposed sanctions on Iraq and refused masks to children with leukemia on the "premises" that Sodamn Insane would make WMD from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 (edited) I actually support the legalization of recreational drugs. After all, the effects of drugs like marijuana are not all that different than alcohol - and yet alcohol consumption is not stigmatized and demonized to the extent of canabis. Vava, PM Jean Chrétien is pushing for a bill to legalize pot and marijuana. Our neighbors to the south, however, are pressuring Chrétien because the legalization would somehow "pose significant danger to US citizens." I support the legalization of recreational drugs too. By the way, I think it was nairi that was questioning this: Canada does have sniffing dogs at the airport. Edited May 7, 2003 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 I actually support the legalization of recreational drugs. After all, the effects of drugs like marijuana are not all that different than alcohol - and yet alcohol consumption is not stigmatized and demonized to the extent of canabis. Vava, PM Jean Chrétien is pushing for a bill to legalize pot and marijuana. Our neighbors to the south, however, are pressurizing Chrétien because the legalization would somehow "pose significant danger to US citizens." I support the legalization of recreational drugs too. By the way, I think it was nairi that was questioning this: Canada does have sniffing dogs at the airport. I think it will rather be decriminalised, noth legalised, it is two different thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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