2003 Declarations

[MJ]

Presidential Message: Armenian Remembrance Day, 2003

 

 

Today marks the anniversary of a horrible tragedy, the mass killings and forced exile of countless Armenians in the final days of the Ottoman Empire. Many Armenians refer to these appalling events as the "great calamity," reflecting a deep sorrow that continues to haunt them and their neighbors, the Turkish people. The suffering that befell the Armenian people in 1915 is a tragedy for all humanity, which the world should not forget. I join the Armenian-American community and Armenians around the world in mourning the horrendous loss of life.

 

I also salute our wise and bold friends from Armenia and Turkey who are coming together in a spirit of reconciliation to consider these events and their significance. I applaud them for rising above bitterness, and taking action to create a better future. I wish them success, building on their recent and significant achievements, as they work together in a spirit of hope and understanding.

 

As we remember those who perished and suffered, we salute the nation of Armenia, and Armenians everywhere. The United States is grateful for the contributions of Armenian Americans to our national life. Generations of Armenians have employed wisdom, courage, and centuries-old traditions to overcome great suffering and enrich their adopted American homeland.

 

The United States is proud to be a friend of Armenia, a young state with an ancient heritage. We are deepening our partnership to help achieve a secure, prosperous, and dignified future for the citizens of Armenia. The United States is committed to achieving a just and lasting settlement to the Nagorno-Artsax conflict. We will also continue to help Armenia as it strives to strengthen its democracy and market economy.

 

On behalf of the American people, I send solemn wishes to the Armenian people on this day of remembrance. Our nations stand together, determined to create a future of peace, prosperity, and freedom for the citizens of our countries, for our regions, and for the world.

 

GEORGE W. BUSH

 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20030424-8.html

[Arpa]

"horrible tragedy"?, "great calamity"?

I didn't know he knew those words, much less pronounce them.

I wonder who wrote them for him.

Did he say anything more than what the Turks have been saying all along?

"tragedy" and "calamity" are best defined as natural events like earthquakes and hurricanes.

Above all. Another 24th has come and gone.

What have WE learned?

[THOTH]

Yeah - very weak. Thanks for the post MJ. I too had never heard these terms. Why is it that one word "Genocide" is such a stumbling block? It is the height of absurdaty IMO.

[Sasun]

I think last years message was better than this one. Here is a counter argument to the viewpoint that the Armenian cause benefited from seemingly deteriorating relationship between US and Turkey.

[MJ]

I disagree.

 

I think this statement is stronger than ever before.

 

Pretty much, other than using the G- word, every meaningful thing is said in that statement. The reluctance of using the G-word is due to the understanding that it constitutes a political statement, which they don't want to make, I think.

 

One question I have is what does the Armenian audience expect to hear, short of the G-word, which would be deemed satisfactory?

Edited May 6, 2003 by MJ

[Sasun]

I would like to hear in one form or another that the Turkish government, despite having relative democracy and being an ally of America, is criminally covering up the historical truth. And I certainly don't want to hear that veiled reference to the reconciliation commission who are in no way elected by the Armenian or Turkish people, but merely appointed by the State Department. Also, it would be fair to point out that Turkish government refuses to open up the borders or start diplomatic relations, although this may not be included in a statement on Apr 24.

 

The G-word, I think, doesn't have to be included. Last year he desribed in detail what happened, and that is exactly what happened. He didn't use the G-word. I think that was OK.

[Sasun]

Many Armenians refer to these appalling events as the "great calamity," reflecting a deep sorrow that continues to haunt them and their neighbors, the Turkish people.

 

Please note that he doesn't call it even a "great calamity". It is "many Armenians" who do. Exactly how many? All Armenians call it a 'yeghern' or 'genocide'. This statement contains disbelief which makes every Armenian angry. So he understands that many of us call it a 'great calamity' and he feels sorry, but he may not necessarily trust what we say and therefore avoids using a meaningful word.

Or am I misinterprating it?

[Arpa]

Please note that I did not want ot get into semantics.

In fact when I asked "where he had learned these terms"? I tried to spare us the embarassment. He learned these terms form us. "mets eghern"/great crime. "hskah paduhas"/enormous calamity.

One must be thankful that he did not use the most common Armenian term "martyrs"/Nahatakats Ton*. After all how did we "martyr" ourselves (for a cuase)? The term is MURDER, not martyr.

* Ton is a "festival". What is festive about this date?

[MJ]

Thank you for your explanations, Arpa.

 

I also think that he is using a term adopted from us, and it is good.

 

 

Sasun, I don’t think that Turkish Government is covering anything up. It cannot cover anything up in this age and time. The Turkish government just doesn’t want to repent. That’s all.

 

The statement doesn’t constitute disbelief on Bushes part. He is picking up on the emotional subject important to Armenians and avoids making a political statement. If he didn’t believe in the validity of the discussed assertion, he would’ve kept silent or just made an ambiguous statement, such as “we are sorry for the tragedy that has befall on our Armenian Turkish brothers, who have both suffered in the WWI…”

 

Armenians have no capacity to press the US Administration to do something that it doesn’t want to do. There is enough evidence for such statement. Moreover, America and others owe nothing to Armenians.

 

Your statement about the reconciliation commission is most unfortunate and attest to the fact that you are talking about things which you don’t know enough about. That is not a good quality. You are trying to denigrate honorable people.

 

The reconciliation initiative is a private initiative on behalf of the professional people involved and similar people who back them up. They don’t need neither your or mine election nor approval. In fact, they couldn’t give a damn about what someone like us would think. And they are brave people. The reconciliation effort is continuing as hard as it is and that is the only meaningful thing to do. The rest of the things are just to feed the mass schizophrenia or the charades.

 

Efforts are underway right now to press Turkey to open the borders both from Europe and America in this regard.

 

In my view, the most important insight related to the blockade of Armenia, which is neglected due to incompetence or lack of truthfulness, is the following: according to the 1921 Russo-Turkish and the subsequent fourlateral treaty where Armenian is signatory, subject to interpretation, Turkey and Russia have the right to blockade Armenia – both transportationwise and informationaly. If the informational blockade in our days is impossible, due to the new technologies, though it was exercised by the USSR in 1988-89, the transportation blockade is obviously possible. It is the obligation of the Armenian government, first of all, to walk away from a treaty which it has signed, so that to not grant voluntarily Turkey and Russia the protested right of blockade.

 

Moreover, in the past, Russia has subjected Armenia to blockade, too. Additionally, if America has the power and should press Turkey, as expected, to lift Armenia’s blockade, with the same token, Russia should be expected to press the lifting of the blockade of Armenia by Azerbaijan, and should stop paralyzing the Abkhazian sector of the railway so that the transportation cost from and to Armenia may be reduced and make Armenia more competitive in the economic sphere. I would like to here comments and emotions in this regard, for example.

 

If we need to discuss these issues, we should do them competently and truthfully. Otherwise, it is just a juvenile ventilation.

[Sasun]

MJ, to be fair, we should point out that the result of reconciliation group's work was the recognition by ICTJ of the genocide as 'genocide'. This is certainly a positive sign and beneficial for everyone. It is another question as to how much weight it carries in terms of real reconcilliation between Armenian and Turkey.

 

Let's make it clear that this small group was paid by the State Department. I don't deny that they are trying to achieve good things. But they don't represent the people and therefore they have no legitimacy to speak from the name of Armenian or Turkish people. MJ, Petros and Sasun could make effort to achieve reconcilliation with Ali, Ahmad and Murat but can't claim that from the name of Armenia and Turkey. Armenia is represented by the Armenian government. I know you could rightfully argue against the government but that's what we have. When the 4-5 Armenian member of the group speak from the name of Armenian people, they undermine both the Armenian government and the Diasporan organizations who are far more entitled to represent Armenian interests than private people.

 

You are saying that I don't know well. Of course I don't. How am I supposed to know what is going on between a group of private people who are reconcilliating with each other behind closed doors? I know what has been in the news, that's all. Do you know more? I would be interested to know if you do.

 

About the blockade, I don't know what agreement are you referring to. But in 1921 there was no sovereign state of Armenia. At any rate, if there is such agreement that has a binding power that Russia or Turkey have a right to blockade Armenia, then I agree that Armenia should first nullify such agreement. However, we never hear Turkey to cite such an agreement when they reply to calls to open the border. Instead, they put forward 3-4 ridiculous conditions.

 

You are saying that America doesn't owe anything to Armenia. That's right, legally America doesn't have any obligations to Armenia. But morally it does have obligation. When we hear that America is the champion of world democracy and such, then we should remind our cause and say that it is the obligation of America. On the other hand, America does have obligations to the Armenian-American community and his voters to keep his promise of calling genocide as 'genocide'. (To be more precise, he called it a 'genocidal campaign' before being elected). I understand that Bush is avoiding a political statement, but his Armenian voters want him to make a political statement.

[MJ]

Sasun,

 

 

Your insinuation of the people involved with the reconciliation efforts is an outright misinformation, softly speaking. These people have their full time jobs, and they don’t get paid from the State Department. The expenses associated with these efforts (and no compensation for their work) were covered by a Diplomatic establishment out of Vienna.

 

The governments put their signatures under the pacts. In this sense no one can replace nor will attempt to assume a role which belongs to the Armenian government. However, the theoretical, legal and logistic frameworks are always prepared by small groups of people. Let’s call them think-tanks. For all practical purposes, you can view this group of people involved as think-tank. Additionally, one of the members of that “think-thank” was an active Armenian diplomat, and another one was the former foreign minister. These are not accidental people. This group was formed with the knowledge of the Armenian Government.

 

Diasporan organizations are not entitled to anything. They are just disgrace – first of all the ARF- and it is time for them to be replaced by those who represent new and contemporary thought. Diasporan organizations represent no one but themselves – ARF represents about 6000 people worldwide, Ramgavars represent less than that and Hnchags don’t exist for all practical purposes.

 

It is important to state that no member of reconciliation effort has ever spoken on behalf of the Armenian people – believe me, they know their limits better than you and I do.

 

”You are saying that I don't know well. Of course I don't. How am I supposed to know what is going on between a group of private people who are reconcilliating with each other behind closed doors? I know what has been in the news, that's all. Do you know more? I would be interested to know if you do.”[\quote]

 

In such cases, it is better to not make strong statements and try to investigate things, first before denigrating people.

 

About the blockade, I don't know what agreement are you referring to. But in 1921 there was no sovereign state of Armenia. At any rate, if there is such agreement that has a binding power that Russia or Turkey have a right to blockade Armenia, then I agree that Armenia should first nullify such agreement. However, we never hear Turkey to cite such an agreement when they reply to calls to open the border. Instead, they put forward 3-4 ridiculous conditions.

 

You are utterly wrong. Armenian Sovereignty has been lost in 1923, when it has been joined with the Caucasian Federation. Also, I don’t know how can you characterize a treaty which is the only acting document regulating the regional issues, as “ridiculous.” This is another subject you should study before making inaccurate and uninformed statements. Turkey is always citing this agreement – carefully though, so that not to open a can of worms. The entire Turkish policy in the region is based on this document – it is the only document, again.

 

America nor any one else don’t owe anything to Armenia neither legally nor morally. However, I agree that America is the champion of democracy and the guarantor throughout the whole world. And we are asking America to help us.

 

Our cause is the strengthening of the foundations of Armenian statehood. And no one else has helped us more in that cause than America. I am aware of some stupid ventilation on the subject of “Armenian Cause” – pure garbage, if I am to speak out.

 

If America should make moves based on the desires of American-Armenians, then it should also do so based on the votes of American-Turks, American-Jews, etc. Maybe that is not a bad thing to wish, but it is obviously a controversial and complex issue. In any case, before we expect something from someone else, we need to clean our house, first.

 

It is true that every single US presidential candidate in the last 15 years or so has promised to proclaim the recognition of the Genocide and has not followed up with it. This only means that as human beings, as individuals, they are for the recognition. When they become president and have to make decisions in an institutionalized environment based on the recommendations of their State Department and Pentagon, they find themselves obligated to make judgments based on the whole complex of the surrounding issues.

Edited April 25, 2003 by MJ

[Sasun]

Sasun, I don’t think that Turkish Government is covering anything up. It cannot cover anything up in this age and time. The Turkish government just doesn’t want to repent. That’s all.

 

OK, it cannot cover up, but it is trying to do so by buying American academic institutions, by forging documents, by hiding archival documents and all kinds of other things. We know that it doesn't want to repent, but the Turkish government doesn't say so. It says there is nothing to repent. I would like this fact to be acknowledged, and not hear false statements that Turkey is doing every effort to reconcilliate.

[MJ]

Sasun, I don’t think that Turkish Government is covering anything up. It cannot cover anything up in this age and time. The Turkish government just doesn’t want to repent. That’s all.

 

OK, it cannot cover up, but it is trying to do so by buying American academic institutions, by forging documents, by hiding archival documents and all kinds of other things. We know that it doesn't want to repent, but the Turkish government doesn't say so. It says there is nothing to repent. I would like this fact to be acknowledged, and not hear false statements that Turkey is doing every effort to reconcilliate.

 

It is not trying to "do so." It is trying to "explain" it.

 

If Armenians are entitled to buying academic institutions, so are the Turks. Yes, they say "there is nothing to repent because it was Armenians' fault."

 

To the best of my knowledge, since 9/11, no person in his/her right mind has alleged that "Turkey is making every effort for reconciliation." The thing is that Turks don't need it. It makes no difference to them. It makes difference to us, however, so that we can treat the Armenian psyche from mass schizophrenia, first of all.

[Sasun]

It is not trying to "do so."  It is trying to "explain" it.

 

No, MJ. The official point of Turkey is the flat denial that Armenian Genocide ever happened. What they are trying to explain is fabrication. They made up a lie and they are trying to 'explain' why it happened.

 

If Armenians are entitled to buying academic institutions, so are the Turks.

 

Armenians are not entitled and do not buy academic institutions.

 

To the best of my knowledge, since 9/11, no person in his/her right mind has alleged that "Turkey is making every effort for reconciliation." The thing is that Turks don't need it. It makes no difference to them. It makes difference to us, however, so that we can treat the Armenian psyche from mass schizophrenia, first of all.

 

Turkey and America have alleged so. The Bush statement above also partly alleges so.

You are wrong calling the mass feelings of Armenians schizophrenia.

 

Your insinuation of the people involved with the reconciliation efforts is an outright misinformation, softly speaking. These people have their full time jobs, and they don’t get paid from the State Department. The expenses associated with these efforts (and no compensation for their work) were covered by a Diplomatic establishment out of Vienna.

 

That is correct only technically, that's what the State Department says if it says anything. But it was pretty clear from the beginning that State Department was the initiator and the sponsor. It is not important who hands them the money. Also, money is not the only thing that one can get paid with.

 

The governments put their signatures under the pacts. In this sense no one can replace nor will attempt to assume a role which belongs to the Armenian government. However, the theoretical, legal and logistic frameworks are always prepared by small groups of people. Let’s call them think-tanks. For all practical purposes, you can view this group of people involved as think-tank. Additionally, one of the members of that “think-thank” was an active Armenian diplomat, and another one was the former foreign minister. These are not accidental people. This group was formed with the knowledge of the Armenian Government.

 

 

The Armenian government had knowledge but it has expressed several times that it had nothing to do with the initiative, and in some instances has expressed objection. There was also widespread discontent and mistrust among Armenian communities. And these are not schizophrenic people. They don't trust unrepresented, little known or unpopular individuals.

 

Yes, the governments put signature under the pacts when they agree. But this commission, as it was suspected from the beginning, was trying to undermine the policy of Armenian government of international recognition of the Genocide.

 

Diasporan organizations are not entitled to anything. They are just disgrace – first of all the ARF- and it is time for them to be replaced by those who represent new and contemporary thought. Diasporan organizations represent no one but themselves – ARF represents about 6000 people worldwide, Ramgavars represent less than that and Hnchags don’t exist for all practical purposes.

 

I disagree, not to say that they don't have their flaws. Even if that was the case, Diasporan organizations are more entitled than the State Department to take charge of Armenian affairs.

 

It is important to state that no member of reconciliation effort has ever spoken on behalf of the Armenian people – believe me, they know their limits better than you and I do.

 

Well, they don't have to say it. They hardly say anything. If the name of the group is 'Armenian Turkish Reconcilliation Commission' that says the Armenian members are representing the Armenians.

 

In such cases, it is better to not make strong statements and try to investigate things, first before denigrating people.

 

Thanks for the advice I don't mean to denigrate people, not without cause anyway. We are not in a courtroom. I think it is clear what my point is, and to make that point I don't think I need to do more investigation than what is obvious and essential (at least to me).

 

You are utterly wrong. Armenian Sovereignty has been lost in 1923, when it has been joined with the Caucasian Federation. Also, I don’t know how can you characterize a treaty which is the only acting document regulating the regional issues, as “ridiculous.” This is another subject you should study before making inaccurate and uninformed statements. Turkey is always citing this agreement – carefully though, so that not to open a can of worms. The entire Turkish policy in the region is based on this document – it is the only document, again.

 

Armenia lost its independence (sovereignty) from the moment the Bolsheviks supported by the Red Army took over. Since then Armenia has been dependent on Russia and has not made it's decisions. I know that legally it maybe disputable, but the present day Armenia recognizes itself as the continuation of 1918-1920 Armenia which has signted the Sevre treaty without foreign interference.

I didn't characterize any treaty 'ridiculous'. What I called ridiculous are Turkeys well known preconditions to starting diplomatic relationship. (Sometimes one of these preconditions is the removal of any reference of Western Armenia from the constitution (or declaration of independence? not sure) , which is quite ridiculous).

 

America nor any one else don’t owe anything to Armenia neither legally nor morally. However, I agree that America is the champion of democracy and the guarantor throughout the whole world.

 

When morality is in question you always owe something

So, America doesn't owe anything to Armenia. Let it be so if America believes so. In that case, does Armenia owe anything to America?

 

And we are asking America to help us.

 

It seems that America always 'helps' us even if we don't ask.

 

Our cause is the strengthening of the foundations of Armenian statehood. And no one else has helped us more in that cause than America. I am aware of some stupid ventilation on the subject of “Armenian Cause” – pure garbage, if I am to speak out.

 

I agree on the foundations. But I strongly disagree regarding your view on the Armenian Cause. Armenian Cause is determined by the Armenian people. Then the Armenian people asks for help in this cause. If America helps that way then that is help. If America ignores that request for help and chooses to 'help' in another way, that is not help but pursuing its own interests. I regard the Armenian Cause a big part of the foundations. I think most Armenians regard that way.

 

If America should make moves based on the desires of American-Armenians, then it should also do so based on the votes of American-Turks, American-Jews, etc. Maybe that is not a bad thing to wish, but it is obviously a controversial and complex issue. In any case, before we expect something from someone else, we need to clean our house, first.

 

Yes, we need to clean our house by our own forces. People outside of our house should not be allowed to take part in the cleaning unless they are asked and willing to do it.

 

My belief is, no one has helped us more than Russia who, by the way, guards our borders and gives arms to us as of today. Certainly America, whatever it has done, can't match Russia in that respect. One could argue that Russian doesn't really love Armenia, but neither does America.

Edited April 25, 2003 by Sasun

[Dan]

Just one sentence:

 

WHEN, oh WHEN, will the American "president" call it the Armenian GENOCIDE?!

 

Dan

[Dan]

Please note that he doesn't call it even a "great calamity". It is "many Armenians" who do. Exactly how many? All Armenians call it a 'yeghern' or 'genocide'. This statement contains disbelief which makes every Armenian angry. So he understands that many of us call it a 'great calamity' and he feels sorry, but he may not necessarily trust what we say and therefore avoids using a meaningful word.

Or am I misinterprating it?

Sasun, I couldn't have said it any better.

 

Bush's words (and other presidents' words before him) are like a double edged sword. They soothe and they kill. They soothe those who take it at face value, they kill (not literally) those who can read between the lines...

 

It's like USA is throwing a bone to Armenians, saying, "here, we're commemmorating your great calamity (note that the killing of soldiers during war can be considered a calamity too), and that's good enough. So be happy with it and don't ask for more."

 

Dan

Edited April 25, 2003 by Dan

[MJ]

This will be my last comment on the subject.

 

Turkish official line is that “bad things have happened, and they have happened to all of us. It was not Genocide, but undoubtedly a lot of Armenians have suffered as well as Turks have done so.” They don’t deny the killings of Armenians. They argue the numbers, the character and the motives.

 

The establishment of Armenian Chairs in US educational institutions has been long sponsored by well known Armenian philanthropists. I know at least 6-10 such chairs. In such case, Turks also can sponsor Turkish chairs, and that is what they have tried to do. If the quality of research out of such Chairs has not been adequate, it is a whole different story. But, outright, one cannot deny the Turks the right to establish such Chairs. It is an established practice even outside the Armenian and Turkish circles. Additionally, one has to place special attention to the historic research that comes out of Armenian academic institutions – most shameful due to its complete lack of professionalism – they cannot still distinguish the science of history from the traditions of communist partisan ideology. They are as terrible as the Turkish historians are. In fact, Turks are even better than the Armenian historians from Armenia. Turks are at least being exposed to the standards of the modern science of history due to the the scutiny they are under. The historians of Armenia still function in the paradigm of Soviet methodologies. If not for the handful of Armenian historians in America, Canada, and so on, and the foreign professionals specializing in Armenian History, Armenian history research would be on the same shelf as the Azerbaijani one.

 

Now, give me one reference where Turkey and Armenia have alleged that Turkey “has made serious effort for reconciliation.” As to Bushes statement above, show me the line where he claims so.

 

If you are still claiming that the previously mentioned people have been paid directly or indirectly by the State Department, that is a statement made from a vantage point of view of a person who has never had carrier of his own, has never held a serious job, is ready to sell out to anyone as soon is someone pays, and that’s why he thinks that if someone else is doing something, it is out of considerations to “cash-out.” I am sorry for your small and perverted world. Obviously, I would have not said this if you had not persistently continued your theme.

 

No one else is more interested in Turkish – Armenian reconciliation than Armenia. And no one is more interested in it than those who cherish aspirations for the future of Armenia and its sovereignty. In the big picture of things, State Department doesn’t care if Armenians and Turks would reconcile or not. Armenians are a very small factor for the State Department to be concerned and preoccupied with.

 

Armenian Government has never had officially anything to do with TARC. However, it has not denied that it has been consulted. And it has never expressed objections. The same concerns to Turkey. Both governments have quietly welcomed the effort. That is how things work in the absence of diplomatic relations. Otherwise, show me evidence to support the opposite argument as alleged by you.

 

There were some forces in the Armenian community, which have loudly expressed mistrust towards TARC. The most loud one wasa representative of ARF – Sasunian. This guy had expressed strong interest, initially, to participate in the work of TARC. Later, perhaps his leadership had forbidden him, so he started to blast TARC. Any experienced reader could have seen that his primary venom was due to the fact that TARC had continued its work without him. I would claim that those circles who have express their resentment towards TARC are the most mistrusted representatives of Armenian nation. But who gives a damn about them? If the issue is ripe, it would be put on the desk of both governments, who would make the decisions.

 

The Armenian individuals involved in TARC have been the most well known and the highest profile throughout the entire Armenian nation. It is those objecting them are the little known ones.

 

”Yes, the governments put signature under the pacts when they agree. But this commission, as it was suspected from the beginning, was trying to undermine the policy of Armenian government of international recognition of the Genocide. “

 

Such arguments are called ‘oxymoron.’ Even you have claimed in this thread that the ICTJ’s qualification of the Genocide as so has resulted from the efforts of TARC - in fact, one person at that. In the last 30 years, all your Armenian Organizations together have not accomplished as much as this one person who is behind much of the success on the American arena.

 

The simple logic says that by asking the State Department to recognize and to intervene in something which is inherently “an Armenian issue,” and thus internationalizing the issue, we are not in the position to claim that the State Department has to be out of it. You can stand in one side of the issue or the other. If you constantly bounce from one side to another, that means you don’t know what you are talking about. Which is not surprising in view of everything else. But it becomes annoying.

 

"Well, they don't have to say it. They hardly say anything. If the name of the group is 'Armenian Turkish Reconcilliation Commission' that says the Armenian members are representing the Armenians.”

 

First of all, they are representing Armenians as much as any other non-governmental individual can do so. They are all professionals, very well recognized individuals and have made much more contributions to the future of Armenia than those who you would insinuate have. And they have the right to call their organization anything they want (while the political expediency of doing so may be rightfully questioned), since it is not indicative of their function but is the name of their organization. It is much like the newspaper called “Republic of Armenia.” It is the name of the newspaper. It doesn’t mean that it is indeed the Republic of Armenia.

 

”Thanks for the advice I don't mean to denigrate people, not without cause anyway. We are not in a courtroom. I think it is clear what my point is, and to make that point I don't think I need to do more investigation than what is obvious and essential (at least to me).”

 

The above statement is only descriptive of your character.

 

 

"Armenia lost its independence (sovereignty) from the moment the Bolsheviks supported by the Red Army took over. Since then Armenia has been dependent on Russia and has not made it's decisions. I know that legally it maybe disputable, but the present day Armenia recognizes itself as the continuation of 1918-1920 Armenia which has signted the Sevre treaty without foreign interference. I didn't characterize any treaty 'ridiculous'. What I called ridiculous are Turkeys well known preconditions to starting diplomatic relationship. (Sometimes one of these preconditions is the removal of any mention of Western Armenia from the constitution, which is quite ridiculous).”

 

The multiple and egregious factual inaccuracies in the above paragraph indicate that you neither have clue about the Armenian history nor about the legal framework where the states operate. Current Armenia recognizes itself as the continuation of previous two Republics of Armenia. In 1920 only change of regime has taken place in Armenia – one communist party called ARF has yielded power to another communist party. There has been absolutely no ideological or political difference between them (that’s why ARF has so easily yielded power and has not resisted to the penetration of Communists in Armenia since 1918. There is no difference now, either) The regime is all that has changed in Armenia in 1920. Armenia has lost its independence in 1923. Severs treaty is an international treaty and Armenian has signed it exactly due to foreign interference. So has done Turkey - due to foreign interference.

 

You should also show me where Turkey does speak about “Western Armenia” and where the constitution of Armenia does so. There has never existed anything like Western Armenia as a matter of legal or historic (other than geographic) entity. It is purely a product of schizophrenic fantasy. Even the Severs treaty does not specify anything remotely sounding like Western Armenia. And the Severs treaty is what comes closest to it. There is a legitimate thing as Western Armenian. That is about all. This ridiculous term has been put in circulation by the most incompetent Armenian activists, and has been repeated so many times that a non-diligent person like you (don’t mean to be offensive) repeats it without thinking and analyzing the basis of it.

 

America does not owe anything to Armenia. However Armenia owes significant foreign debt to America, currently. Moreover, America has forgiven Armenia the $50 million debt loaned to her in 1919 (something that ARF has stolen from the Republic of Armenia, subsequently), which by today’s measures would have been equivalent to tens of billions of dollars. We have not only asked America to help us but we have begged her. Armenia has received about $1 billion aid from America, only, in the last 12 years or so. In the opposite case, Armenia would have not existed today. Additionally, Armenia has as almost as much debt to the World Bank, where USA has 17% ownership. IMF is another lender. There are others lenders, too.

 

Armenian people have defined their cause by declaring independence. Armenian people through the Armenian government have not presented any other claims to anyone. “Most Armenians do not mater.” What matters is a representative government which will be the sole body to speak on behalf of the “most Armenian people.” That is what we would have had if we had normal elections this year.

 

Russia…

 

This is the sole country, after Turkey, which has destroyed Armenia and continues to do so as of today. I don’t think that Russians are such evil. In fact I love them much. I just think that large segments of Armenians are stupid slaves.

 

It is most dishonest or incompetent to claim that Russia protects Armenia, when it has been the sole country responsible for the loss of Armenian lands to Turkey and Azerbaijan, the current crisis in Karabagh, and the suffocation of the Armenian economy and the confiscation of her most valuable assets through predatory tactics. Russia has killed the Armenian economy, has impoverished the Armenian population of Armenia through its monetary policies called “the ruble zone” in the early 90s.

 

There are about 10,000 Russian forces in Armenia “protecting” the Armenian borders. THese are merely border troops. It is most ridiculous to claim that these troops have a function of defending Armenia against Turkey. Much larger and more professional Russian troops have not been able to resolve even the Chechen problem in some 10 years. If it was in the state interests of Turkey, unfortunately the Turkish army would have been able to easily sweep Armenian and Russian troops into the Caspian within few days. And it would not have cared if Russia was there or not. Russia will go in war with Turkey… Yeah, yeah, yeah… Tell such stories in kindergartens. What do you think Russia will do to Turkey if it cannot even deal with Chechnya?

 

In any arguments of these types, one must try to express competent thoughts so that to be taken seriously. Not everyone can do so. And places where systematically incompetent thoughts are cultivated turn into kindergartens – such as this forum. But at least, one should try to be honest and consistent in his/her arguments. Incompetence is not a serious fault – most people, as Sip would attest I am sure, are incompetent.

 

Intellectual dishonesty is different issue.

Edited April 26, 2003 by MJ

[THOTH]

Wow MJ - impressive. i actually agree with most of what you say (for all that it matters). However, as usual, i think you are being to harsh on Sasun.

 

Let me also say that it is my belief that it was the composition of the Turkish side that doomed TARC to failure apriori. Thier representatives were admitedly hard lined and were clear that there intention was primarily to mute the Genocide claims (pushing for nations to do so etc) simply by the existance of the commitee - and that they had no intention of giving ground on any issue. I have no objection to (the concept of ) a TARC - not at all - I fully support such an effort - it is absolutly necessary IMO. But to move foreword and participate in such a sham when there was clearly no hope of anything positive - that is the issue in my mind - and why I opposed the effort as it was composed. I also do not believe (or I am not aware) of any real agenda on the part of the Armenian side - and i think we need to articualte our political goals better - both concerning the Geniocide and concerning Armenias international relations (2 seperate things)

 

I see a clear distinction between (economic and diplomatic) issues that the Armenian governemtn/nation has with Turkey and its neighbors etc - and the Geniocide issue - which is one where the Diasporan Armenians must have their own voice (until/unless something is clearly worked out between the two - though I believe there is reason and benefit to seperating these lines...)

 

Anyway - I don't have time for more right now. Though I urge all on this forum to seriosly heed MJ words and thoughts. Armenians need to think critically concernign their constructs that have built up over the years and MJ is demonstrating this kind of innovative far-thinking. I know his delivery is harsh - try to look past it. I know he will (correctly) claim that he has been demonstrating great patience with us...LOL

[Dan]

Thoth,

 

Are you sure you are first Armenian (in ancestry), and THEN American (in citizenship)? Cos you seem to be defending the US government more readily than you are defending Armenians or than you would defend the Armenian government.

 

Dan

Edited April 25, 2003 by Dan

[Sasun]

MJ, when talking about questions related to politics, especially to international politics, you need to learn realpolitics. I didn't invent this concept, just open your eyes and you will see that the world is not fairy-tale and the State Department is not the center of it.

By the way, I don't have a carreer in politics but I have studied political science and international relations, so I know what I am talking about, and those are not my personal opinions unless I say they are.

Second, when talking to people, you need to learn to respect. All your questions and comments have answers, but I am not going to answer because you are quick to arrogantly describe my character and that is very unpleasant (even if your narcissic view of yourself and the world was actually true).

[Dan]

Sasun,

 

Those who think they're doing a great job by attacking the other side instead of the other side's views, know nothing about what the hell debate is all about.

 

Dan

[MJ]

\

Let me also say that it is my belief that it was the composition of the Turkish side that doomed TARC to failure apriori.

 

Winston, I know the TARC story better than you can suspect.

 

...it was the composition of the Turkish side that doomed TARC to failure apriori. Thier representatives were admitedly hard lined and were clear that there intention was primarily to mute the Genocide claims (pushing for nations to do so etc) simply by the existance of the commitee - and that they had no intention of giving ground on any issue.

 

The bottom line is that they lost, and the Amrenian side held its ground.

 

But to move foreword and participate in such a sham when there was clearly no hope of anything positive - that is the issue in my mind - and why I opposed the effort as it was composed.

 

The success of the Armenian side is obvious. There will be more. But it would not be easy.

 

I also do not believe (or I am not aware) of any real agenda on the part of the Armenian side

 

It is very simple and banal - recognition and reconciliation.

 

I see a clear distinction between (economic and diplomatic) issues that the Armenian governemtn/nation has with Turkey and its neighbors etc - and the Geniocide issue - which is one where the Diasporan Armenians must have their own voice (until/unless something is clearly worked out between the two - though I believe there is reason and benefit to seperating these lines...)

 

If the Genocide is to be perceived as a political issue, Diaspora has nothing to say in it since political issues can be raised only by states. If it is to be seen as a moral issue, obviously the issue of Diaspora is the recognition, and it is being pursued.

 

 

I really have lost my patience with all of you - really - you too. This place has turned into a kindergarten or a dump for those who have something to dump.

[MJ]

MJ, when talking about questions related to politics, especially to international politics, you need to learn realpolitics. I didn't invent this concept, just open your eyes and you will see that the world is not fairy-tale and the State Department is not the center of it.

By the way, I don't have a carreer in politics but I have studied political science and international relations, so I know what I am talking about, and those are not my personal opinions unless I say they are.

Second, when talking to people, you need to learn to respect. All your questions and comments have answers, but I am not going to answer because you are quick to arrogantly describe my character and that is very unpleasant (even if your narcissic view of yourself and the world was actually true).

I am sorry for you.

[Guest Fadi]

Martin, I just have a question to ask you.

 

Is there any historical chair of history outside of Armenia, that is financed and was found by Armenia with specialised grants for researchers in order to prove the genocide happened ? I have admited, and I admot again of my ignorance of Armenias foreign relations and politic, so I just want to know if there is any comparaison to the Ottoman Chair of history, and the specified two types of grants(not including those so-called pied vaccations), exist in the cases of Armenia ? Why I ask this is because I think there is a difference between what the diaspora does, or what Turkish associations or said Turkish "diasporas" does and what government do.

 

So, here is my question, and a second one would be, why should governmental founded institutions be compared with those found by an ethnic community waiting a foreign country.

 

As for the rest, I wont answer, I wont talk about a subject I dont know enough about, and will do you that pleasure.

[MJ]

I will answer you when you shave your mustache.