Two in one go.

[Kazza]

I can I just ask two questions pls?

 

1) What is a Circassian?

 

2)

[ThornyRose]

Yes? And what is the second one?

Circassians...

 

http://e-kovulmaz.virtualave.net/images/cerkesler.jpg

 

Actually, if you type in the word in any search engine, you can find an abundance of info. I'm saying this instead of giving you a url, because I don't have a favourite site - really.

Basically, there is no definite race, micro-race, or what have you - nor is there one single Circassian language - all groups' differ much.

We are to the North of you modern-day Armenians, in the Caucasus.

Circassian girls were the crown jewels of the sultans' harems (poor women! but the last sultan's grand-daughter does look like an aunt of mine - the eyes, the lips)...

We number the many in Turkey and are here because the Russians expelled our ancestors in great numbers from our homeland in the nineteenth century when the Ottomans were retreating, giving up their sovereignty over those lands. The ones expelled were the Muslims - the Christian ones were allowed to remain, and perhaps they did collaborate with the Russians for the expulsion of the Ottomans, I do not know. Today, I guess you have many Muslims in the Caucasus as you have Christians.

What else?

 

*************************

Actually, you will find us all the way down to Jordan and Egypt. My maternal grandmother's family has some branches of the family in Jordan, that we know for sure.

 

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: Thorny Rose ]

[bellthecat]

Filiz,

 

I do hope you don't think I appear insensitive, talking about your ancestors, but I get a different impression of their origin in Turkey when looking at old books (but I confess I have not read a modern book on the subject!).

 

In all the 19th century books I have seen, it is always said that the Circassians left willingly, and often entirely at their own initiative. The reason being that they did not wish to live under the dominion of a Christian country This is said in British and French books, not exactly allies of Russia at that time.

 

Also, they left at the end of a long series of very, very, violent wars in which the Russians tried to control the mountains of Circassia. These wars actually started AFTER the Ottoman Turks had ceased to have any control over Circassia, and the lands had become (in name anyway) a part of the Russian Empire. Fighting tended to start up again whenever there was a war between Russia and Turkey. Turkish agents actively encouraged the Circassians to rebel and thus open up a front behind Russian lines - support was promised, but rarely provided (you get the impression that the Turks were just cynically exploiting the Circassians).

 

Steve

[Guest Fadi]

Steve you are right in a part. What is said in history books is that Circassians exiled in mass after the Ottomano-Russian war. But here there is a hidden thing, is that Circassian womens were taken in mass and used as "slaves" for the Russian army, the Russians sold thousands of Circassian womens to the Ottoman that did nothing to stop this human commerce, when live was becoming impossible to the Circassians, and also the injustices of the Russians, the Circassians left Russia. From what I learned there was also the fact that the Circassian were well treated in Ottoman system and when the territory ended up in the Russian hand, and womens taken, then crimes vengences by the Russians because of the fact that Circassians were fighting with Ottoman(It was a normal thing since Circassia was on Ottoman juridiction), they hads the choice a little forced by the Russians to take what they got and leave the region, normaly they got the choice, but the Russians didn't missed the occasion to expopriete the richer of them. But this was repareted, when in the same time the Armenians were also deported, and their territories repopulated by Circassian, for what the pseudo-historian McCarthy call an exchange of population, between Christians and Muslims. When at the same time the ottoman also profited of this commerce of Circassian womens for the harems, and distributed in mass. The Circassian womens being beautifull, they were bel;ieving to pout this kind of beauty in the Ottoman population.

 

And also the ottoman also inniciated the deportation, when they agreed with the Russians an alleged population exchange, that ended up of a big scale starvation of the Circassian population, I searched the numbers of victimes etc... I had no real success, other then McCarthy calculations of victimes etc... I have no real numbers.

 

I talked about this in the past, and tried to compared with the Armenian case, like I explaned, the two events are not really comparable, when the Circassians had the choice to leave, the right of Armenians to leave the country was made illegal during the war, and this even from the official Ottoman relieced archives by the Turkish ministry of foreign affairs. Also the premedited act, there could be no event of all these periods that could have been compared with the Armenian case, since the extermination was prepared, with an organization, the participation of physicians for specific works, a special organization, the military, the usage of the desert for specific reasons etc...

 

But still if we use the Un definition of genocide, the Circassian tragedy can be called a genocide I think, the Circassians ended up in the hand of the Russians as their subjects, and it was the Russians responsability, but the Russians made everything possible in order to "Christianise" the place.

 

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Kazza]

Oh, I SEE. Or begin to see. I will read the stuff in greater lenth tommorrow. It is getting late (12.30) and have about 4 essays to write in half as many days. But I thought the Circassians were armenian or a kind of armenian but it appears they are not. Or ARE they?

 

Anyway...CU tommorrow..

[Guest Fadi]

Nope they are not

[Kazza]

Well, that is funny because I always got the impresion they are because the name ends with IAN. So it isnt exclusivley armenian then,, this IAN and YAN ending. Some say it's even from persian origin. (While I am on the subject- are there any persian speakers on the forum? I need a tiny bit of translation)

Also, when I tried the search englines they baffled me because of my unsurness about them, there was far TOO much abundance of information! And you know what that can be like in this situation - confusing!

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bellthecat:
Filiz,

I do hope you don't think I appear insensitive, talking about your ancestors, but I get a different impression of their origin in Turkey when looking at old books (but I confess I have not read a modern book on the subject!).

In all the 19th century books I have seen, it is always said that the Circassians left willingly, and often entirely at their own initiative. The reason being that they did not wish to live under the dominion of a Christian country This is said in British and French books, not exactly allies of Russia at that time.

Also, they left at the end of a long series of very, very, violent wars in which the Russians tried to control the mountains of Circassia. These wars actually started AFTER the Ottoman Turks had ceased to have any control over Circassia, and the lands had become (in name anyway) a part of the Russian Empire. Fighting tended to start up again whenever there was a war between Russia and Turkey. Turkish agents actively encouraged the Circassians to rebel and thus open up a front behind Russian lines - support was promised, but rarely provided (you get the impression that the Turks were just cynically exploiting the Circassians).

Steve

---

Circassians have been fighting against russian advance in their homeland since 1600.

No Steve , they did not really left wantingly at all.
In fact as early as 1828 circassians were writing letters to the world leaders including the house of lords in UK and asking them for help in providing weapons to fight tzarists forces.

when russians decided to burn(literally) their way into caucasus mountains most of
the circassians decided to fight & die which subsequently happened .

400 000 (four hundred thousand) circassians alone have died from disease & hunger upon arriving at ottoman port of trebizon.

My ancestor was a 6 year old boy without any family member - in fact he was the only survivor of the war.

I like many other circassians in turkey have grown up with our distinct culture - in fact turkish & jordanian circassians are said to be the best at preserving the traditional ways while it seems most of soviet circassians have adopted the "way & wisdom of vodka ".

Turkish agents set up circassians to fight against russians interests & russians & iranians play it from their angles to counter attack the turkish interests.

Is it ever possible to have a set up in caucasus that resembles some kind of unity
for the people of caucasus.

Cliche as it might be , government by the caucasians for the caucasians seems to be the only viable answer to me.

[nairakev]

Cliche as it might be , government by the caucasians for the caucasians seems to be the only viable answer to me.

 

War in Chechnya, in Abkhazia, In Osetia are the result of that will.

Noone casted so geniously the tsarist expedition to Caucasus like Lermontov, Tolstoi.

Did you read Lermontov's "The Hero of our time"?

[Guest]

Hello Naira

I have not read the book unfortunately.

i suppose without russia - turkey - iran agreement there is no way for united caucasia.

Which is a bit shame really...

[levonyeshilian]

Right,they are soooo beautiful but my fav. are 'Tatar' woman.......Who can resist Chinese green eyes!!!

[bellthecat]

"A Hero of our Time" is considered by many to be one of the first modern novels. I'm embarassed to say I have not yet read it (but I have a book telling me how it should be read!).

Steve

[nairakev]

BullTheCat or Steve,
(well actually for me who you are means no ****. That's not the issue!)
Do you think you are a smart kid?

You better be boy!

We are talking about cherkess people, said to be circassians in English. Only for that reason, I offered to read a book which is studied in a Russian school and writen about a war which Russians never simpathyzed.

I remember at school during literature lessons we were discussing the image of that "Hero of Their Time" to understand the meaning of this novel. To feel more than historic oeuvre, but also as philosophical. Russians felt that Hero reflected the atmosphere of the whole Russian society of that time. And it was presented as an image of "fatalist".

Russians never approved that war and their intellectuals have passed this message to future generations. The problem is that Russia has been often caught by its intellectuals!!!

If I advice this book to a circassian intentionaly, I don't mean at all to offer some propaganda literature. But a fiction literature. Which is more human and somehow "popular"! And for a circassian it will be extremely interesting to read!!!

He should be interested more than any Russian in meeting Lermontov. Because they have got more messages to a circassian than to a Russian.

Bon, in the end I'll distract your humble attention on something different.

I heard you say: I'm embarassed to say I have not yet read it .

I'd say:
Read the real one first! And have a pause!

And then if you are researcher go and get this (but I have a book telling me how it should be read!).

I told you it is a fiction. This "fatalist" hero is a incarnation of an average "Hero of Lermontov's Time" and arround that time.
The cherkess people live in Russia, they live in Turkey, In Jordan. They have many stories to listen.

Don't you think so, Steve?

Hm...

[ThornyRose]

No, not at all, Steve, and you are actually right on the macro scale, I guess, because that is also what I have read, say, on the internet. I do not know for sure. It's just that I had been brought up with this element of force on my mind, sort of.

But I am not really all that sure all of them left by will... After all, I've heard of stories of homes and towns being burnt and all...

The greater part of the tragedies, of course, happened en route... To this day, many Circassians will not eat fish from the Black Sea, because a good portion came by boat and deposited their dead into the sea as they died. (My grandfather's came by land, and theirs might even be before the first wave - as there were two. I have to check with my mother.) They don't want to eat the fish whose ancestors ate their ancestors. No problem for me, though.

To tell you the truth, most of what I know - and that isn't really all that much - is that which is just plain told me.

[ThornyRose]

My grandfather's family were nobility, sort of. My grandmother's, too, but I don't know "how much"...
My mother has a collection of Circassian hand-craft from her mother's family - most impressive. (And very old and fragile.) Mostly, they are bits and pieces of cloth in patterns like you see in the picture above, except they were made with silver wire... They once probably adorned the rims of skirts and coats, but now they are on another piece of cloth my mother has glued them to, on the wall in one corner of the living room.

[Guest]

**** off Thorny rose!

You are Turkish Government barbaric spy!

[bellthecat]

Naira, regarding Lermontov's "A Hero off Out Time", you didn't make it clear when you mentioned the book that it was fiction, that's why I wanted to clarify it.

 

Actually, when the book first came out, everyone thought that it was a factual travel account, and it is listed thus in an old 19th century book I have. It is part of a whole genre of Russian literature dealing with the Caucasus. That is not just a 19th century thing - look at Mandelstam's Journey to Armenia" from the 1930s, or Andrei Bitov's "A captive of the Caucasus" from the 1980s. It is also not just a Russian thing, or why would the novel still be important 160 years after its publication.

 

Steve

[MJ]

Edward,

 

You are out of here. When the Administrator gets to his desk, your access would be terminated. Don't contaminate the forum, please.

[nairakev]

**** off, Edward!
I'm Armenian and I like Thorny Rose. I care less she is a spy or fisherwoman.
Don't you see how stupid you look like?
Do you think that through internet you will stay anonymous. You are wrong. Intollerant idiots like you I met before in the streets of one of my favourite cities. In Yerevan. Since it has become one of those cities where the majority of passer-by talk like you, I left the country.

How do you plan to survive in the USA, you stupid idiot?
Didn't you know that the forum moderator is obliged to trace your IP address. If you will continue your offensive intolerant behaviour, the adminstrators can contact your ISP. Most of ISPs punish their clients by cutting their subscription. You better pray that your ISP is not a nation-wide company. Your case will be listed in so-called black files. Where, evryone will know by consulting your file, that this citizen is a "marked" one.
If that doesn't scare you. I can tell you what do you normally face.
Your IP will be blocked and you will not be able to access this forum anymore.
You can try with other IPs, wut all your IP will be blocked each time you try to cheat.
You got lots of money to offer you useless revange?

The best option for you is to apologise like a human being in front of Thorny or leave in peace with your 'fascistic' thoughts.

Please, try another thread for brewing up your manhood:
http://armenians.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimat...c&f=15&t=000018 - Topic: What is the attraction of black men?

[ThornyRose]

I like you, too, Naira! Girl power! ehehehe


[ June 03, 2001: Message edited by: Thorny Rose ]

[nairakev]

I know this may sound stupid! But I'm fond of this caricature dedicated to SpyGirls. It's not my type at all. But sometimes when I see guys like this one, I feel like one of these girls.

 

Take a look at this picture.

 

TRose, we'll beat them anyway. They are our slaves...

Oops, I said something stupid as usual!

 

http://www.cartoons.freeserve.co.uk/SpiceGirls.gif

 

[ June 03, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[ThornyRose]

LOL...

Ever happened to check the picture in my profile? LOL...

[nairakev]

LOL...Devilish!
I see you, TRose!
You should be a real trouble for certain category of men.
So, bad for them. They should grow up, after all, right!