Sip Posted March 9, 2002 Report Share Posted March 9, 2002 Ok so here's my problem. Anytime there is an "Armenian" gathering, official or un-official, like at someone's house, IMMEDIATELY after food is served and eaten things are cleared away. This is not so much of a problem in the official settings when I am a guest ... ... but when among friends, relaxing somewhere, maybe on vacations, the females can't wait till everyone is done eating before they jump and start cleaning, putting things away, running around like chickens with their heads cut off ... in most cases making another round of "Armenian" (or Turkish) coffee. That just makes me feel horrible since I HATE when the men just sit while the women do all the cleanup. BUT, I don't know about anyone else but usually when I have finished eating, I just can't move for about 30 mins ... especially at the pace where women usually run around cleaning things up. So then I feel bad that I didn't help So here's my question: Why is it such that especially in our Armenian culture, the food table is cleared away soooo quickly after eating? Why can't people wait a few minutes or maybe an hour? I understand that some food must be put away in the fridge or it will go bad. But the plates don't care if you wash them 5 mins or 50 mins after being used!!!! Oh and one more thing ... sometimes the women even insist that you go away and let them do their job. I don't know which one is worse, sitting and doing nothing or trying to help and being told that you are doing something wrong (but that's a different topic). I am NOT lazy, just give me a few minutes to relax after eating and I will be happy to help in the cleanup efforts ... I sometimes get the feeling that the women are "programmed" to jump and do the things that I mentioned above, otherwise they will be looked down upon and thought of as being lazy. Just wanted to say, I don't think so ... am I then "not a real Armenian" as our friend Arthur would say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted March 9, 2002 Report Share Posted March 9, 2002 I know what you mean. My mom does that all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 Sip,I know exactly what you mean. I actually hate it when I get up to wash the dishes and I am told to go away. I think Armenian women are all brought up being told that they should finish dinner fast and be ready to clean the place, and the husbands, brothers, fathers cannot do any of the kitchen work. I think. In our household I am the best cook(although my sister is pretty good as well) and we share the cooking and cleaning duties when we are alone, but when we have guests or friends, I end up sitting at the table like an old fart and all the women do the chores. Maybe the ladies in the forum can give us hints on how to get involved in the cleaning duties and maybe we can tell them why it would be nice to not worry about the dishes for few minutes after dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 I also have had similar experience. Growing up I was very interesting in learning to cook Armenian. My mother (a great great Armenian cook...for certain/many things...would imediatly boot me out of the kitchen - always....I had to learn on my own, through cookbooks & expirementation & exposure (I must say though - even she is impressed...)..still my repritoire is much more limited then I'd like...though my shish kebab & pilaf are practically unmatched...(not just IMO...) I don't know if the following belongs here...but it is perhaps distantly related...so you will indulge me I guess...several years ago - before a certain Aunt of mine died - she had been suffering from Altheizmers disease and her comprehension of who she was around went in and out (and of course rapidly deteriorated). It happened that I was visiting some other reletives at the same time that she was...and somehow it was made known to her that I was coming...she didn't even conciously know me/who I was/my name etc...but she knew my love of (her) choreg from when I was a child - only her and my Grandmother could truly make it (in a way superior to any that I have ever had elsewhere...so rich, just the right densitiy [not too light or too heavy] and seemingly so buttery)...well she had insisted that she make it (and she did, for me - and beemed so by what she had done for me)...knowing that I was coming...and it was wonderful...yet she couldn't even remember my name (and never after was I able to communicate with her in any way)...anyway...I just thought of it now, and it still tears me up to this day - and at this moment. One of my (most vivid) memories of youth - that I will never forget - is awaking to the smell of the choreg baking in the morning ...knowing my grandmother, aunts and such were making it especially for me... I Don't know the answer to your "why do the Armenian women clean up so quickly after the meals" etc dilema...I just know that they possess an unsual energy (hyperness- IMO)level in general (from my experience)...and that they continually strive for perfection...I think that more often then not (more often then others) they achieve it.... [ March 09, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 Wow THOTH, that is an amazing story! Actually, the only memory I have of my great grandmother is of her making breakfast. She died when I was 3 and I don't remember anything else about her ... other than these few images of her that one morning making me breakfast in the kitchen. Actually, she was making what we call "gogli" (I don't know if it is a standard term) ... that's when they beat raw eggs and sugar really fast ... extremely delicous! I guess the vivid sounds and her quick motions (exactly that energy that you are talking about) wipping the eggs in the glass made a very deep impression in my memory since I remember that instant extremely well. Believe it or not, I can even recall the appliances, the chairs, the table, even the color of the her cloths she was wearing that day! Pretty mind boggeling considering I must have been about 3 years old and I didn't spend much time in that place Actually, it may be one of the earliest things I can trully remember in my life. [ March 09, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 Seaphan - well I have been bawling my eyes out since I wrote that bit. Literaly everyone who was there besides myself is dead now...and for some reason your initial post and this thread has caused me to think about all of them quite a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 "why do the Armenian women clean up so quickly after the meals"answer - we make way to much mess I love cooking, mostly BBQ., Traditional Armenian Khorovats I love it and if I can find a good master I will have a Armenian Tonir ( Tundir) made in my back yard. Their is nothing in this world that makes me happy then cooking for the family and for friends, I like to have guests, if most of our cousins are present we would have over 35 to 40 guests. Qef time !!!I do not like to stop by at one of the meat markets and get the meat already prepared, I like to do the whole think my self. I love to experiment different ways of cooking, smoking, steaming and use different meat and ingredients. Anything that I can put on top of the MANGHAL I will cook it. HE HE But just like you seaphan jan me to I get the same treatment, and for some freaking reason I will always be on their way . It’s ok, it’s part of having fun ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyeflyer Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 I find it a normal thing in the home for the table to be cleaned and also the kitchen imediatly after dinner.In our familly the men were encouraged to learn to cook from a very young age 5 or 6.The young boys and men were helping clear the table and to clean and put away the extra food.The men went to the parlor for coffee,brandy and then to the porch for a cigar.You you made the grade when you could join the men foer the after dinner relaxation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 That is an amazing story Tooth. What is choreg. Sounds yummi. Whe I was a kid my mom use to make "gogli" for us as well, but I never liked it. Not that she made it bad or anything like that, it's just I have never likes milk or eggs in my life. Unless it is made into a cake that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nané Posted March 10, 2002 Report Share Posted March 10, 2002 OK. I will attempt to answer the question that has been brought up. There are two answers that come to mind immediately. 1. The answer posted by Azat - I think Armenian women are all brought up being told that they should finish dinner fast and be ready to clean the place. 2. My own observation, especially in "hayastantsi" crowds, has brought me to the conclusion that women jump up and start cleaning the table in order to remove the alcohol from the table and prevent the process of the men getting drunk-and-wasted. ________________________________________________ Personally, I find it rude when people clean the table while others are eating. I also don't like it when the "tantikin" disappears in the kitchen, washing dishes and cleaning up. You can do that after your guests leave. While they have not left, you need to be out, in the living room, with them. That's how it is in our home. The issue of men helping out - I'm all for it. I have no brothers, but my male cousins have always been encouraged by me to help out around the house. The same goes for friends. BTW, I LOVE goggli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 Azat - we prounounce it "chud-egg" though I have seen it written "choreg" - similar to the Jewish Challah bread (but better, a bit denser and richer)...know it now? [ March 10, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 Azat - we prounounce it "chud-egg" thlugh I have seen it written "choreg" - similar to the Jewish Challah bread (but better, a bit denser and richer)...know it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 ChoreQ - Azat jan himnakanum Zatiki yev kam Surb tsnundi jamank en patrastum, Zatiki jamanak nuynisk Xashats gunavor dzu en dnum mejter@, @endunvats dzev@ hyusqi n@man e HAmer, byuravet, geretsik YAm YAm YAmyyeeeeee Hamova sakayn indz chi kareli 5 hatits avel utel Gogly lav bana norits indz chi kareli 2 hatits avel: Movses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 Tooth, my man, I know exactly what it is and my sister makes an unbelievable choreg. My mom use to make it great and more recently my sister makes it and I help, but I have to say that to do it good it takes a long time. We, in our household call it "guluria". You have to come over and taste it to compare. Sulamita, are you saying that these bad "hayastantsi" women do not want us(men) to have any fun so they take the alcohol away? ________ I'll give you another example of this cleaning stuff. When I purchased a house few years back and installed a dishwasher in it, my mom thought that I had become too American because I did not want to just do the dishes by hand. I actually have had to force women to put the dishes in the dishwasher after gatherings, they always say "It's just 20-30 plates, it would take me 15 minutes" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 Azat jan kneres sakayn guluryan yev choreq@ nuyn@ chen Guluryan (kulurya ) aveli chor yev vran el tetev Shaqari poshi en tsanum, isk Choreq@ da Papuk, xmor@ tali pes anjatvor, dernavun, hamov, Xmorerena Ba shat el vor colestrolini patjarov chen trnum ogtvem, zato karor em xosel mets hajuyqov. HAm el Anet@ jishta asum He hi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MosJan:Guluryan (kulurya ) aveli chor yev vran el tetev Shaqari poshi en tsanum, isk Choreq@ da Papuk, xmor@ tali pes anjatvor, dernavun, hamov, Xmorerena No. We do not put any sugar on it and it is not a dry pastery. I guess you have to come over and taste it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 Azta jan Achqis vra:)chmornas mi shish en im sirats conyakits korq@ dnes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anshnork Posted March 11, 2002 Report Share Posted March 11, 2002 Hey, this is EXACTLY how it is at our house, and it bothers me more than anything. I'm not sure if this is true for other families, but I know that in mine, they're this big unspoken rivalry among the women to see who's the "cleanest." They praise eachother on how clean their houses are. Apparently, the faster you clear the dishes, the more clean and tidy you are. I know that when I start having "Armenian" parties, I'll leave the dishes for the NEXT DAY! What's the point of the party if you can't be with your guests!!! If I did do this, would I be considered less "armenian"?? I LOVE choreg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MosJan:Azta jan Achqis vra:)chmornas mi shish en im sirats conyakits korq@ dnes Movses,Lets see if I understand you correctly.1. I have to make Toniri Khorovats.2. 10 Choregs. 5 for you and 5 for me.3. 2 Gogly. You can have both.4. A bottle of $800 Noyak. I get half5. "Soot dolma" - all for me as I only eat veggie stuff. My question is, "Who is going to wash the dishes?" We probably should not invite Sulamita as she will take the bottle of Noyak from us so we don't drink too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 you know what's scary....one of the first things I banned out of my life when i mooved ot of my parents place is exactly this cleaning behaviour, i left the dishes to do after the dinner party or the next day or whatever...but now, 7 years later, i catch myself cleaning up the mess immediately after dinner, washing up everything and making coffee and.... could this behaviour be genetically determined? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 Azat jan karevor@ tsankutyunn e, mnatsats@ chem kartsum eyakan harst e, inchpes vor kuzes. du noyaki shish@ im araj dir heto ov uzuma tor Portsy im arajits et shish@ tani / lav lurj - yekek Handipenq mek or - voroshenq yev handipenq - Klineq mer hyur@ - hravurum em bolorit, vorosheq vorter, yerb, kartsum em kareli e havaqvel, yete voch jashi, gone che surji serani shurj tsanotanalu yev janachelu mimiyants. isk amenner@ l@vanalu masin, hog mi ara mi ban kanenq!!! yes mekin gitem dranist menak amen lvatsor durs k@ga. menak et mi vat ban ka, amaner@ lvanaluts heto ir anun@ yerevi vran gri kam el ir web site hastsen. Movses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anahid Takouhi Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 Gardzum em yes el em hamatsayn Yerp enk hantibelou? Mos jan, Uzum em UK gnam man galou, payts mart chounem undegh Garam ARTURianin timem vor okni inc? Ink lav dgha a yerevoum, 3 had el afto ouni, garogha inc el mi kich gu frratsni Inch gases Moso, timenk iran? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 anshusht Hmayq jan arants qez menq chenq havaqvi . arajin@ qez kasem Hmayq jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 Hmayq jan yete du es harstnum - uremn karras times el dimmes el inch kuzes ara. nayi ha menak arturin time, urishneri chtimes, chen ne an aden@ yes qezi k@timem poqrig hartsov m@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anahid Takouhi Posted March 13, 2002 Report Share Posted March 13, 2002 Mos Jan, Yes ARTURianin em timelou (vochinch nerir mi kich tlvligoutiun unem lezvis vran... ), du asoum es arturin. Ba es ergousu nouyn martign en vor? Hedo chem jaroum ira en kradzu, vordegh asoum er te ink 3 had afto ouni garas ases dra deghu? Inch hartsov es ints timelou (vay! eli gagazetsi ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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