groucho marx (arshak palabıyıkyan)

[aurguplu]

dear everybody,

 

i think the famous entertainer was a guy called arshak palabıyıkyan but that's all i know about him. with that name his chances of being anything other than armenian appear to be slim. can anyone check it out?

 

plus, there have been (and still are) quite a few famous armenians in ottoman/turkish history. a few examples:

 

1. tatyos efendi: famous musician, ottoman period.

 

2. the entire balyan family: family of architects, built the dolmabahçe palaca amongst quite a few other monuments.

 

3. pars tuğlacı: famous turkish linguist, author of a number of dictionaries and encyclopaedias.

 

also is there anyone out there who knows where the late herbert von karajan got his surname from?

 

regards,

 

ali suat

[Taguhi]

Merhaba Ali,

There were olso some famoust families like

Tuzian, Tatian. There were advizers of Vezirs

and owners of many mines and factories.

In XIX most every Vezir had his Armenian adviser.

In Ottoman Empire were to big Armenian Trade Companies Rumelian and Anatolian.

[nairakev]

I've got know idea where did they pick the "von" title.
----
Here what says karajan.org website in his bigoraphy section:

"Herbert von Karajan was born in Salzburg on 5 April 1908, the younger of two sons born to chief physician Ernst von Karajan (1868-1951) and his wife Martha, née Kosmac. His ancestors originally came from Greek-Macedonia, immigrating to the electorate of Saxony by way of Vienna. In Saxony, Georg Johann Karajannis was elevated to the nobility of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations on 1 June 1792 by Friedrich August, Duke of Saxony.

Of Herbert von Karajan‘s relatives, his great grandfather Theodor Georg von Karajan (1810-1873) distinguished himself as a historian and philologist at the Academy of Science in Vienna; he supported Mozart biographer Otto Jahn, for example, and his interest in music led him to write a paper on Joseph Haydn's first visit to London.

"

[Boghos]

Groucho Marx was not Armenian. Tell you the truth, this is the first time I ever had that he might have been.
http://www.marx-brothers.org/living/marxes.htm

Famous Turkish Armenians as you mentioned abound, there is also Sinan, Akop Dilacar and many, many others. As you know, there are quite a few contemporary Turkish industrialists that are Armenian. They keep a low profile.

[nairakev]

Boghos,
Sinan according to all Turkish and European sources was greek. I don't know why many armenian sources affirm that he was armenian.
This is very unclear. Who is trying to cheat?



[ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[Boghos]

No, my darling, not all sources affirm that Sinan was Greek. There is absolut certainty that he was Christian: "Sinan was born in the province of Karamania...His parents were Christians, probably Armenian or Greek" from Sinan - Architect of Suleyman, the Magnificent, John Freely and Augusto Romano Burelli, Thames and Hudson 1992.

In Karamania at that time Armenians were more numerous than Greek. Since Sinan was actually a victim of devshirme it is very difficult to say whether he was one or the other, but most likely Armenian .

[ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[aurguplu]

dear boghos,

 

thanks for the link on groucho marx. i dont recall where i got the arshak palabıyıkyan name from, i'll check it out. maybe he was someone in the movie industry, and appeared in the cast or something. if the name rings a bell to you, please let me know.

 

as for sinan, he wrote his own autobiography, and if we go by that, he was a greek from ağırnas near bünyan (the name means builders in arabic) near kayseri. now here is the catch: in ottoman times, terms we use as ethnic designations today usually meant religious affiliation, so sinan may have been an armenian affiliated to the greek orthodox church.

 

scholarly opinion appears to regard him as greek, whereas turkish folklore generally regards him as having been armenian. there is also a - distant - possibility that he may have been a christian turk (some turks converted to christianity shortly before or after the conquest of anatolia, and stayed that way and are largely the ancestors of present day gagauz turks in russia. this is yet another of those facts that turks either don't know or don't like to be reminded of at all, but since the soviet union collapsed, and these people came to turkey with a strange but decidedly anatolian sounding type of turkish, such facts are now creeping up to the surface).

 

cheers,

 

ali suat

 

if i recall correctly, his autobiography was called "tezkiretül bünyan" and was published

and also translated into western languages.

 

he was taken into the devshirme at a relatively late age, at about twenty. unusual for the institution, since they would usually take teenagers those days.

 

i doubt it would be right to call him "a victim of the devshirme" since he owes his entire career to it and was one of the most remarkable architects of all time, by any accounts. i can understand the anger vented at the devshirme institution in other cases perhaps, but in this particular instance it gave rise to something monumental.

[aurguplu]

dear boghos,

 

i know that there are quite a few turkish industrialists that are armenian. i doubt if they keep a low profile. for instance, the süren family (of galatasaray fame) is publicly known to be of armenian origin, this doesn't seem to have caused him much trouble.

 

also, turkish pop singer nükhet duru's ex, dikran masis is armenian, he makes office furniture. the list is long, including toto karaca (theatre actress, mother of cem karaca, the famous pop singer).

 

i dont know about ayhan ışık, but i have heard that fikret hakan was armenian. anyone knows anything on that?

 

cheers,

[Boghos]

Dear Ali,

 

When I was refering to Armenian industrialists keeping low profile, I meant their relationship with other Armenians in the diaspora. Turkish Armenians tend to keep to themselves for reasons that are very well known and not worth repeating.

 

As to Sinan, I was not aware of his autobiography, thank you, I will try to get a copy. I knew of the writings of Prof. Aptullah Kuran, perhaps the most important authority on Sinan in Turkey. I think you are right about devshirme, even though the biography I mentioned is considered a very important one, and says that he was taken away at 13. There is also an inconsistency in the birth place. You are quite right that other sources point at an older age. I defer to you.

 

I think most works on Sinan are much more concerned with his architectural prowess rather than proving that he was Armenian, Greek, Assyrian or whatever.

 

I am less interested on who the famous Armenians are, or were, and much more interested on the dynamic that led the Armenians to have such a strong presence in all levels of government and the professions. There are standard views on why this happened, but standard views tend to be boring and limited. Perhaps we could expand on this sunject.

 

PS: If I remember well you said you are in equity research, if that is so let me suggest a private exchange of messages on the subject. You just need to click "my profile" on the upper right hand corner in order to see them, in case you didn´t know.

[aurguplu]

dear boghos,

 

i would be surprised if kuran's work did not mention that autobiography. let me do some homework on this and see if i can get any references for you.

 

as for the dynamic of the armenians at all levels in the ottoman government, one should first divide the ottoman period into three chunks: 1- beginning to conquest, 2- conquest to tanzimat, and 3- tanzimat to republic.

 

the attitudes to non-muslims were different in all three. i think one reason why they were all over the place in such numbers is because they possessed a set of skills very similar to those of the greeks, but were more trusted because the separate armenian patriarchate owed its existence to sultan mehmet ii, and that the greeks and armenians usually had conflicting interests. also because the greek national consciousness was the first to develop, at a very early date.

 

also (i dont want to sound like a turkish propagandist but this happens to be true) many armenians were opposed to the idea of an independent armenia simply because all their material wealth was based on the continuation of the ottoman empire. i think that these things made the armenians more trustworthy in turkish eyes than the greeks.

 

who knows, if it weren't for these c.u.p. idiots, we would have had no genocide, (o.k. sultan hamid also killed armenians, but he killed most everyone, and when he was deposed, christians, muslims and jews were dancing in the streets holding hands) and the relations between the two peoples would not have deteriorated to this level.

 

i think these two issues, the prominence of armenians in the ottoman empire and what relations could have been like if there had not been a genocide, could be worthy of further attention.

 

re private exchange of messages on equity research: agreed. (checked my profile and saw nothing yet)

[Boghos]

Agreed, let´s proceed to that under another topic, History I suggest. Please check your profile again.

[raja]

Arsak Palabiyikyan was the nickname given to Marx by the Turkish press of the time.As you know the movies of that time which came to vision in Turkey were all dubbed.Groucho Marx's dubbing was performed by then famous dubber Ferdi Tayfur(not the arabesk singer )In his dubbing Ferdi Tayfur gave him an Armenian accent and the press named the character Arsak Palabiyikyan.

[raja]

I haven't ever heard of either Ayhan Isik or Fikret Hakan being Armenian.In the film industry famous Armenians are Kenan Pars(Kirkor Cezveciyan),Nubar Terziyan,Aram Gulyuz(director),Arto Berberyan(decor).
In music:Mine Kosan,Asu Maralman,Hayko,Onno Tunc,Garo Mafyan,Rober Hatemo,Arto.
In theater:Ani Ipekkaya
Also photographer Ara Guler(considered #1 in Turkey),journalist Etyen Mahcupyan are famous Armenians in Turkey.