TURKEY SUPPORTS CHECHEN TERRORISTS

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Pravda.ru reports: THE EUROPEANS ARE CORRECT IN THEIR REFUSAL TO MAKE TURKEY AN EU MEMBER

 

The Russian government started a diplomatic offensive against foreign organizations that support Chechen terrorists. Theis is happening against the background of the recent hostage crisis in Moscow. Let us hope that Ahmed Zakayev's arrest in Denmark is the first success of the struggle. However, Denmark is a European country, and it chairs the Council of Europe. It is not really convenient for Copenhagen to refuse documented evidence proving the fact that Chechen emissaries are connected with terrorist. However, the situation is completely different with Turkey.

 

Moscow asked Turkey to shut down various Chechen funds and organizations located on Turkish territory. Russia mentioned one of the most notarious Chechen organization: The Association of Chechen and Caucasion Unity. It is also worth mentioning that the terrorists who seized hundreds of hostages in the Moscow music theatre called Turkey several times. This was confirmed both by former hostages(terrorists used their phones) and by the interception of phone calls. Nevertheless, it will be very hard for Moscow to force Turkey sulfil such a request.

 

The above-mentioned association has a financial division: the Fund for Chechen and Caucasian Unity. This fund reportedly receives up to $130 million every year from various fundamentalist organization (in the Middle East, on the Arabian Peninsula, as well as in Pakistan, Bosnia and Albania) to support terrorists.

 

In addition, according to information from the GazetaSNG website, the Federal Security Bureau of Russia (FSB) shut down Russian division of a Kuwaiti chairty organization called the Association of Social Reforms. This organization was aptronizing the notorious Muslim Brothers terrorist group.

 

Turkey actually plays the role of a terminal station for Chechen gurrillas and foreign hirelings, who try to penetrate the territory of Chechnya. They travel to Chechnya via Turkey and Georgia. This not news, really. Everybody knows that Chechen querrillas go to Turkey to heal their battle wounds there.

 

Ths so-called Chechen Bureau for Public Relations and Cooperation has been operating in Turkey since 1993. This is something like a diplomatic representative office. Movladi Udugov, a terrorist ideologist, has lived in Turkey for quite a long period of time. Russia has recently demanded his delivery. Turkey refused, and Udugov vanished.

 

Turkey does not deny the allegations of terrorist support. Pursuant to the information from the National intelligence of Turkey, several Turkish ministerial departments and firm signed more than ten financial, economic, and other agreements on cooperation with Chechen gunmen. The documents were signed during the period 1992-2002. Those agreements particularly stipulate the trafficking of oil and petroleum products from Chechnya to Turkey via Georgia, as well as training guerrillas in the Turkish Army. Gunmen were to receive the training in Turkish Northern Cyprus and even in the Kurdish southeast of Turkey, which is closed for Turkish tourists. The illegal oil business alone provided up to $150 million to the terrorist treasury each year.

 

The Chechen diaspora in Turkey is rather large and influential. For example, there are about 25 thousand Chechens living in Istanbul. There are 20 various organizations working in Turkey to support the guerrillas. Here are a few of them: the Chechen political organization "Fighters for Freedom of Chechnya," the Chechen association "Northern Caucasus," and so on. It stands to reason that all these organizations were set up with only one goal: to collect money for terrorists.

 

According to Russian intelligence, the Turkish special services joined Chechen terrorists in seizing a Tu-154 jetliner in March of 2001 and in taking over the Avrasia ferryboat in January of 1996. A Turkish court sentenced some of those terrorists to a short period in prison, which was absolutely inadequate for their crime. Afterwards, many of them returned to Chechnya, where they were either nabbed or killed. It is worht mentioning here that the Turkish government treats Kurdish terrorists in a much tougher way.

 

There are many facts to prove that the Turkish government supports Chechen terrorists. Those that we mentioned are not kept secret, actually. It seems that no one thinks that they should be hidden. This is a strange thing for a country that is running after European Union membership. The Europeans are probably correct in their refusal to make Turkey an EU member.

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RUSSIA, A GENETIC TRAIT FOR TURKS???

 

Turkey's Foreign Ministry sought to diffuse diplomatic tensions with Russia on Wednesday after Moscow's ambassador accused Turkish media of hypocrisy in its reporting of the Moscow siege and Chechnya.

 

Russia's ties with Turkey have been strained by attitudes to each other's rebels, with both countries accusing the other of at least tacit support for guerrillas fighting for independence.

 

The Turkish statement appeared to be in response to ambassador Alexander Lebedev who said on Wednesday he woundered if opposing Russia was a genetic trait for Turks. "Certain declarations by certain parties have questioned Turkey's attitude following the terror events in Moscow," the Foreign Ministry said in a written statement. "Everyone is aware of Turkish policy and commitment to the international war on terror. All countries, including the Russian Federation, have shown their appreciation."

 

In a five-page statement: Lebedev said Turkish coverage of last week's theatre siege by Chechen rebels attacked Russian authorities for their response to the hostage-taking.

 

He said the press had depicted the Chechen conflict differently from the way it covered Turkey's own struggle with Kurdish rebels. Newspapers and television would report alleged Russian atrocities in the rebel procince of Chechenya but ingore "the heads severed by Chechen and Arab brigands", he added.

 

"Is this coincidence? Or it opposition to Russia a genetic sydrome? he wrote.

[bellthecat]

...And Armenia supports "NK terrorists". And most Armenian diaspora organisations exist mainly provide funds for "terrorist activities".

 

Exactly what are you trying to prove, Eduard? Are you so selfish, or ignorant, or just downright nasty, that you will ally yourself with the oppressors of those seeking their legitimate freedom simply to gain some stupid point scoring against Turkey?

 

How can you expect anyone to care about Armenia's problems when you and people like you care nothing for the suffering of other small nations?

[sen_Vahan]

".And Armenia supports "NK terrorists". And most Armenian diaspora organisations exist mainly provide funds for "terrorist activities"."

 

Right that you used brackets for NK terrorists and terrorist activities. In the case of Chechnya they are not in brackets.

[THOTH]

Bell -

 

While I too greatly sympathyze with the Chechen people in their plight - you must admit thay have been saddled with some pretty bad leadership. (Most of) These guys are no better then terrorists and/or gangsters. Its a shame really - because I would like to see the Russians fully out of the Caucuses (of course only after it can be assured that Turkey would not take advantage...and thats the rub). Anyway - dont be to hard on Eduard - he is just reposting frm a Russian account. Its informational..and relevant. Sometimes I think it is hard to know what position to take in this one...

[sen_Vahan]

THOTH,

 

Those that you symphatise are a banch of bastards(financially supported by other countries) creating problems for the whole nation. There is no struggle of chechens for the independence. Everybody knows about the chechen diaspora with great benefits in moscow and Petersburg.

 

Do you think people in Dagestan or Osetiya symphatise chechens and what they are doing now? Ask them, they don't. The presense of Russia in Caucasus does not create problems for the domestics there, they keep their languages, have own schools and traditions, equal rights.etc.

I don't understand what you are TOO GREATLY SYMPHATYSE ?!

Just think a little

[THOTH]

I sympathise with the common people who are caught up in this war. I understand who the Chechen leadership is and I know somewhat about their (criminal) diapora. I also understand how the Chechens started this whole business up again - but that does not stop me for feling for the people who are suffering.

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ArmTv

30 Oct 2002

 

"Washigton post" in its October 29th issue wrote, that the leader of Chechen guerillas Movsar Baraev and his allies kept a constant contact with their associates in Azerbaijan, Turkey, and United Arab Emirates. At the same time, the Russian "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" on the same day informed, that Azerbaijani diplmats knew the cellular phone numbers of Chechen terrorists before the attack on the theater. According to the newspaper, among those in contact with the terrorist leader Movsar Baraev were the deputy prime minister of Azerbaijan Abid Sharifov, Azerbaijan's ambassador in Moscow Ramiz Rzaev, the principal representative of "Azerbaijan Airlines" in Moscow Eldar Hajiev, his wife Zarifa Gamzaeva and sister Nazahet Kasymova, as well as the emplyee of "Azerbaijan Airlines" Sevil Alieva. The representative of subsequently closed "Ichkeria Chechen Republic" in Azerbaijan Ali Asaev was in continous and direct contact with Chechen terrorists.

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Shame on you bell.!!! You support the international terrorists who have hold over 800 people hostage. You support the bloody bastards who have massacred thousands of russians in Chechnya before the first Chechen war. You blame the ordinary people of Artsax for defending theselves from the azeri, turk, arab, and afghan juntas. The people who terrorize the world, are found refuge in turkey, azerbaijan, and georgia. The people who terrorise the world are supported by the turks in the republic of turkey and in azerbaijan.

 

One souldn't have expect anything else from an ignorant person like you. The armenians who have survived a genocide, are called aggressors. The juntas who terrorize the world, are sympathized by the turks. You people are so predictable...SHAME ON YOU!!!

[gamavor]

Thoth's and Bell's recent posts are prime examples of idiocity!!!

Either they have no idea about what is going on or they are simply ignorant bastards!!!

 

Yeah, why don't you justify the arabs that bombed WTC. They are fighting for a right cause, aren't they? Fighting International evil in the face of US. I will replay in detail later.

[THOTH]

OK - let me make one thing very clear (and please read both of my first two posts in this thread) - I sympathyse with the Chechens both becasue of their terrible "leadership" and because of the Russian heavy handed military campign. They are caught in the middle. Are all Checehns guilty - including women and children - because of the actions of some gansters? Anyone who cannot see this to me has the attitude that a nation is free to punish all who belong to a certain etyhnic group or such because of transgressions of a few. If any of you believe this then you should quit crying about the Turks because your position is entirely consitentr with theirs!

[bellthecat]

Exactly! Why are people like markosian and Gamavor so blind. Should we dismiss their attitudes as simply the alaturca ramblings of a Russian fascist and an American fascist, or see it as a symptom of a deeper problem.

 

A deep problem it is, if an Armenian can seriously write here that "There is no struggle of chechens for independence"! Such "representatives" of Armenia expect everyone to respect and understand Armenia's position and struggles, but show nothing but contempt for the ideals and the values that are required to arrive at that understanding.

[Guest Fadi]

Steve

 

You are giving too much importances to Gamavor, has he ever said something that made any sense before ? And even more, when his aliases(Gamavor) is much telling... you talk and talk and he answer "gama Vor" or talking with his "Vor" Sorry can not translate that part, or I'll get a warning for slandering another forum participant.

 

[ November 01, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[sen_Vahan]

"And are you saying that just because the Chechen leadership is criminal that it is OK to adopt a cleansed earth ploicy against the Chechens? Should the Russians have a carte blanche to just do as they please - no limits? If you say yes to these things then perhaps you support the "right" of the CUP/Ottoman Turks to take any extreme measure against the Armenian civilians because of the acts of a few Dashnaks & such - understand my point my thickskulled friend?"

 

Russia does not have the policy of clean earth against chechens,open your eyes, she has the policy of cleaning the republic out of the bandits and terrorists. There is no genocide of the chechen nation. Terrorists themselves put the nation in such a terrible situation and more they keep doing so the more will the suffering of common people be. Think first and then compare things, what Ottomans did was completely different; they exterminated the whole nation in the empire but that's not what russians do. Russia consists of many-many different nations and different religions with equal rights and opportunities.

[sen_Vahan]

"Exactly! Why are people like markosian and Gamavor so blind. Should we dismiss their attitudes as simply the alaturca ramblings of a Russian fascist and an American fascist, or see it as a symptom of a deeper problem."

 

Good language but no sense.

 

"A deep problem it is, if an Armenian can seriously write here that "There is no struggle of chechens for independence"! Such "representatives" of Armenia expect everyone to respect and understand Armenia's position and struggles, but show nothing but contempt for the ideals and the values that are required to arrive at that understanding."

 

Don't even try to make parallels btw Armenian case and chechens in Russia, it's absolutely irrelevant. As I responded to Thoth's post, there is no genocide, no extermination of the nation in Chechnya, russian soldiers do not enter chechen's houses and kill children and women, did not you know that? Moreover, there is a chechen opposition in Chechnya which works on the side of federals and has the same attitude to the terrorists - they REALLY worry about the nation and its living conditions. Do you know something similar in the case of armenians in the Ottoman Empire?

[THOTH]

Well Sen_Vahan - I never said there was a comparison with the Chechen conflict and the Genocide of Armenians - neither did I say that Aa Genocide was occuring per se in Chechnya. However you must be blind and very selective in what you will bewlieve if you think the Russians are saint in Chechnya -

 

WAR HAS NO RULES FOR RUSSIAN FORCES BATTLING CHECHEN REBELS

Troops admit committing atrocities against guerrillas and civilians.

It's part of the military culture of impunity, they say.

But many now have troubled consciences.

 

By MAURA REYNOLDS

Times Staff Writer

 

Los Angeles Times, Sunday, 17 Sept, MOSCOW:

 

They call it bespredel--literally, "no limits." It means acting outside the rules, violently and with impunity. It translates as "excesses" or "atrocities."

It's the term Russian soldiers use to describe their actions in Chechnya.

"Without bespredel, we'll get nowhere in Chechnya," a 21-year-old conscript explained. "We have to be cruel to them. Otherwise, we'll achieve nothing."

Since Russia launched a new war against separatist rebels in its republic of Chechnya a year ago, Russian and Western human rights organizations have collected thousands of pages of testimony from victims about human rights abuses committed by Russian servicemen against Chechen civilians and suspected rebel fighters.

To hear the other side of the story, a Times reporter traveled to more than half a dozen regions around Russia and interviewed more than two dozen Russian servicemen returning from the war front.

What they recounted largely matches the picture painted in the human rights reports: The men freely acknowledge that acts considered war crimes under international law not only take place but are also commonplace.

In fact, most admitted committing such acts themselves--everything from looting to summary executions to torture.

"There was bespredel all the time," one 35-year-old soldier said. "You can't let it get to you."

The servicemen say atrocities aren't directly ordered from above; instead, they result from a Russian military culture that glorifies ardor in battle, portrays the enemy as inhuman and has no effective system of accountability.

"Your army is based on professionalism," said a 27-year-old paratrooper who served alongside U.S. troops as a peacekeeper in Bosnia-Herzegovina. "Our army is based on fervor."

Russian officials, including the Kremlin's war spokesman, Sergei V. Yastrzhembsky, have criticized the human rights reports, saying they are riddled with rumor and rebel propaganda.

Officials have sometimes blamed reported atrocities on what they describe as rebel fighters dressed as Russian soldiers.

But they acknowledge that some human rights violations do occur and say they are taking steps to curb them.

"[Chechens] are Russian citizens, for whose sake the operation was undertaken in the first place," Yastrzhembsky said in an interview. "They should be treated according to the same laws as in the rest of Russia. Any violation, regardless of who commits it, must be reviewed by the procurator [investigating magistrate] and the guilty parties should be punished."

That may be the Kremlin's official position, but servicemen say things are different on the ground. In part because of media coverage of Chechen slave-trading, torture and beheadings, the soldiers believe that the enemy is guilty of far worse atrocities.

Although they know that executions and other human rights violations are wrong, they also consider them an unavoidable--even necessary--part of waging war, especially against such a foe.

In their view, human rights workers and other critics are simply squeamish about the real nature of war.

"What rules? What Geneva Conventions? What difference does it make if Russia has signed them?" said a 25-year-old army officer. "I didn't sign them, none of my friends signed them. . . . In Russia, these rules don't work."

Perhaps most important, the servicemen described a pervasive and powerful culture of impunity in the Russian armed forces. They believe that authorities say one thing in public but deliberately turn a blind eye to many war crimes. A few even said investigators helped cover up such atrocities. Right or wrong, the soldiers are confident that authorities will make no serious effort to investigate war zone misconduct.

"You don't make it obvious, and they don't look too hard," another 21-year-old conscript said. "Everyone understands that's the way it works."

Many of the servicemen admitted having troubled consciences. But like a mantra, most repeated what they had been taught--that whether one likes it or not, going to war means acting bespredel.

"What kind of human rights can there be in wartime?" said a 31-year-old police commando. "It's fine to violate human rights within certain limits."

 

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/russ...atrocities.html

[THOTH]

Some more links to Russian atrocities in Chechnya:

 

http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/06/chech0602.htm

 

Human Rights Watch (note also discusses hostage situation):

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/

 

http://www.freelists.org/archives/news/03-...2/msg00041.html

 

A somewhat biased (Muslim viewpoint) but still very nice history of Russian historical involvement in Chechnya:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq5.html

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:)Well of course, we started the conversation by simply telling that the REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SUPPORTS THE INTERNATIONAL TERRORISTS while the turks try to drive out attention away from the main question.

 

Who said the ordinary people don't suffer when there is a war in the country? Also, when one talks about the Chechens, then its worth to mention about the russians too who were massacred by thousands. The Federal governmet has sent the army to Chechenya only after the Chechens started to kill the Christians.

 

But in any way, the main topic here is INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM AND THE SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS GET FROM THE TURKS AND THEIR AZERI BROTHERS.

[THOTH]

Gamavor -

 

I supose you just can't read as well as not being able to think straight. So please read again what i have written.

 

And are you saying that just because the Chechen leadership is criminal that it is OK to adopt a cleansed earth ploicy against the Chechens? Should the Russians have a carte blanche to just do as they please - no limits? If you say yes to these things then perhaps you support the "right" of the CUP/Ottoman Turks to take any extreme measure against the Armenian civilians because of the acts of a few Dashnaks & such - understand my point my thickskulled friend?

[bellthecat]

Such blind arrogance!!

 

You have never bothered to read anything about the long series of wars during the 19th century the Russian empire fought to conquer Circssia. Wars that were fought with a scorched earth policy and mass reprisals against civilians that mirror Russian activities in Chechenia today.

 

And after the Russians had won, from the 1860s onward hundreds of thousands of Muslim Circassians were forced to leave their homes and given the choice of either move to resettlement camps in Ukraine or to migrate to Turkey - most chose Turkey. They were from the western Caucasus (Abkhazia and Abassia). There was not a forced mass expulsion on the same scale from the eastern Caucasus (Chechenia and Ingushetia) but many chose to leave anyway, again migrating to Turkey.

 

This is why the Circassian diaspora in Turkey has exact parallels with the Armenian diasora in Europe and North America, Both are made up from the descendents of genocide survivors with a recent influx of immigrants from the post-soviet period. And both have the same legitimate concerns for the survival of their original homeland. So, if Eduard Markosyan really believes there is any justification for his words "the main topic here is INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM AND THE SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS GET FROM THE TURKS AND THEIR AZERI BROTHERS." then he should start another topic titled "INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM AND THE SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS GET FROM ARMENIA AND THE ARMENIAN DIASPORA". He cannot be so selective with his deceits.

 

Steve

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So far I have seen only the turks to bark on the armenians and to call them terrorists. When the filthy turk, azeri, arab, afghan, chechen terrorists were killing people in artsak, the armenians were let with no other choice but to defend themselves. On the long run, the "FINAL SOLUTION" the turks have in mind, will destroy the genocidal bastards. To hold 1000 people hostage in a center of Moscow is called an active terrorism. Those terrorist were supported by the turks and most of the other have found a refuge in turkey an azerbaijan.

 

When you kill thousands of russians(Christians) in Chechnya, you will no way will avoid the Federal governments punishment. Face the facts, you start something that you can't finish and you blame others for your miserable life.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eduard Markosyan:

Face the facts, you start something that you can't finish and you blame others for your miserable life.

---

My my - sounds an awful lot like some Turks discussing the genocide...

[gamavor]

Hey stincky turkish pig,

Whatch your mouth....

[gamavor]

To all "enlightened" Armenians and non-Armenians that support or tolerate the Chechens cause.

 

First. Let me remind you that those same "freedom fighters", that have no mercy to civilians (read the newspapers from the last year) that have terrorized south Russian towns, have been fighting our brothers in Artzagh, even not for money, but simply in the name of holly Jihad.

Second. Those "freedom fighters" love to "fight" with civilians (ask the Russian widowers, rather than armed enemy).

Third. In 1993 those "freedom fighters" were negotiating arm deals with their dirty money (mainly heroin and prostitution) with the British government trying to buy "Sting" missiles for the Azery army.

Fourth. There is nothing ethno-cultural or national with regard to their cause. Chechens are stinky turks, just like the moron Domino. Their cause is establishment of sheriat as the law of the land (Ichkeria). Their goal is to islamize Caucasus and to get rid not only of Russians, but from all Non-Muslims.

Fifth. Chechens are weapon in the hands of the big petrol companies. What is at stake is the Caspian oil. (note that they demanded not recognition of their independence or anything like that, but withdrawal of Russian forces). That's the real "Chechen" cause.

 

To those that say that their actions are not terrorist I would just hope that next time those bastards will have relatives among those victimized by the Chechens.

[gamavor]

My- my sounds like Americans discussing the latest American heroism in Afghanistan.

Just read the reports from European commissars that visited Afghanistan lately.