hasmiek Posted May 13, 2002 Report Share Posted May 13, 2002 hello there i was wondering if you guys had heard of the politic crisis situation in the netherlands, and if yes what you exactly have heard... (as a 'rotterdammer' i seem to be living in a hollywood action movie these days; lots of hatred around...ever since some idiot decided to kill the most popular politician around) ps. this topic has nothing to do with armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 Immigration issue will continue to be a "hot sport" for years to come, and many populist politicians will profit of it. Holland is one of the most tolerant contries in Europe in that respect and I was surprised that such a thing can happen in Holland, or probably because of that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 I have not heard or read a SINGLE thing about it so I have NO idea what's going on But I did read that video games led some dumb-a** kid to shoot his friend (Article) Sometimes I get the feeling that the majority of the people in the world have gone NUTZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 Very intriguing actually. First the government falls because of (failing of Dutch peacekeepers to prevent) the Srebianca massacre...then the assasination of Pim Fortuyn...which I think is a great shame. I might not agree with this guy on many things - but he seemed to have some interesting ideas - and not all what I normally would associate with the "right-wing" even if he was anti-immigration - etc (like our Pat Buchannan). What gets me was how he was very openly gay and was against immigration because of the concern that Muslims were less open concerning homosexuality! Somehow I don't think he would ever have made it on the Republican Party ticket here in the States. LOL And he was killed by some obscure activist (forgot what cause) - with seemingly little relation to (any issue regarding) Fortuyn's message/platform. ? And now his party looks to score big in the upcomming election...though I wonder who are those (remaining) of his party - are they more Le Pen types or Boy George? Anyway - I think its a shame that this guy was shot - I think he was likely healthy for debate/consideration of these issues - which seem to be largely ignored in Europe - and a crisis is brewing I think - and not just in France & Netherlands. Perhaps there is a conspiracy of some sort to shut this guy up - eh? Who knows? It just seems very unusual - as assasinations often are. I'm sure politics will be pretty unusual in the Netherlands for a while. (not that any really care much here in the States...I'm likely an abberation - don't get the wrong idea that folks here are even aware of whats going on over there - they're not...by and large). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted May 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 Wow TOTH, you really know what is going on... Srebrenica was the first major thing that happened; our government has fallen over decisions that were made 2 and 1 governments ago...really strange, but it does show respect to the victims. (in srebrenica 7000 Muslim men were murdered by the Serbs. 400 Dutch soldiers were there to protect the Muslim population (but were not allowed to shoot) and that didn't work out. extremely embarrassing. Anyways; the soldiers were under UN command, and the Dutch are good in making bridges and lifting up ships from the bottom of the ocean....but fighting...and making decisions when something terrible is happening....no. but then the main story; Pim Fortuyn. I was totally against him. He was an opportunist. 15 years ago he was still a Marxist, an extreme left-winger...now he was a pretty rightwing guy. He stated that the Islam is a retarded religion and that if it were up to him no muslim would ever set foot in the Netherlands again. He wanted to 'delete' the first groundlaw: that it is not permitted to discriminate (pretty strange as he is a very gay man)....he was bad news, and if he wasn't killed he would have been the prime minister of the netherlands. He was pretty not fit to do that: he would walk out of meetings when people had comments on him; and he was quit vulgar in a way....he said in a live interview that he'd rather **** a horse than a woman...and I find that funny (I laughed my head off), but not very presidential.Anyways, TOTH is wright when he says that it is good that this man decided to speak up; the is and issue here, and he opened the debate, he would have made a good opposition party. Anyways...even though I was against almost everything he said, killing him was the most idiotic, stupid, vulgar and terrible thing to do. This man was saying things that leftwing people were discussed by, but a big part of the Dutch population seem to feel the same way…which is no good news, but the truth. It says that the Dutch are not so open minded and liberal, as we seemed to think. Which is a shame but yet the truth. I think it also says that the Dutch people like a bit of theatre in their politics, and they like people with charisma to rule their country…especially now that he’s killed…maybe Holland is just to boring and needed some action. Everybody is out on the street, in front of his house, crying, and complaining (I live in the same neighbourhood as he did so I have to see this), and leaving notes that the left winged politicians are responsible for his death, because the ‘demonised’ him. The leftwing politicians are threatened to death now. Two lawyers are suing the leftwing politicians and some journalist now for letting Pim Fortyun look like a racist…so there goes our freedom of speech…meanwhile the murderer has made no statement, nobody knows why he has done it. We only know he’s a active educated animal activist. And a psychopath if you ask me. [ May 14, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: hasmiek ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 Fascinating! I always had this feeling that nothing much happens in that part of the world but I guess I was wrong. See now if Holland had qualified for the world cup, none of this would have happened. People there whould have had other things on their minds ... (of course just joking ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted May 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 well Sip there could be more truth in that than you would think....the dutch seem to be bored to death and ready to grab any kind of entertainment, even politics!the world cup could have saved pim fortuyns life! ....maybe you are superduper intelligent!wo would have thought... [ May 14, 2002, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: hasmiek ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 Indeed who would have believed that the Netherlands would be in the news again so soon. First there was the wedding of pince Willem-Alexander to an Argentine model Maxima Zorreguieta, whose father had a minor role in one of the bloodiest governments in Argentina, that of Videla. Then we have the government resigning and the most shocking of all the assassination of Pim Fortuyn (interesting that ING group chairman said that he was a welcome, refreshing voice). Next we need some scandals in Luxembourg, given that Belgium has had its share of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 14, 2002 Report Share Posted May 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:Sometimes I get the feeling that the majority of the people in the world have gone NUTZ smilies/lol.gifintersetingly enough, i have a feeling that they have always been that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted May 15, 2002 Report Share Posted May 15, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:well Sip there could be more truth in that than you would think....the dutch seem to be bored to death and ready to grab any kind of entertainment, even politics!the world cup could have saved pim fortuyns life! ....maybe you are superduper intelligent!wo would have thought... Damn, now I wish I didn't put that "just joking" phrase there You know what is amazing to me? If you have a monkey with a typewriter that just sits and types random letters ... eventually, after enough time, it WILL type the ENTIRE written works of Shakespeare!!!! I find that completely mind boggeling. By the way, to give credit where it is due, that is pretty much straight from a poem by Eddington (not sure of the first name). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted May 15, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2002 hmmm,interesting.... are you trying to tell me you're not smart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted May 15, 2002 Report Share Posted May 15, 2002 Not really ... mostly since I think that "smartness" is not that well defined. For example (it's one of my favorite ones), it used to be that if you were good in chess, you were considered smart. But now computers can be very good in chess and I don't think anyone considers computers "smart". At the moment, I would say that "smartness" probably means being able to tell the difference between random letters and phrases from the meaningful ones. Since the human brain doesn't work too fast and since we don't really have a lot of time (like that monkey up there), we have to rely on some intelligence to say things that have any meaning. ... also, when I start talking all philosophical and stuff (that increasingly get incoherent) that is usually a VERY good indication that it's time for me to shut up and get some sleep! I usually feel much better after sleeping about 10 to 12 hours. ... and what does this all have to do with Dutch Politics? I have NO IDEA http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/Sip/zr2/roflmao.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 15, 2002 Report Share Posted May 15, 2002 Sip, consider yourself in that NUTZ group too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyeflyer Posted May 15, 2002 Report Share Posted May 15, 2002 Personally I think the whole world is a bowl of granola.Its all fruits , nuts and flakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 You know what is amazing to me? If you have a monkey with a typewriter that just sits and types random letters ... eventually, after enough time, it WILL type the ENTIRE written works of Shakespeare!!!! I find that completely mind boggeling. By the way, to give credit where it is due, that is pretty much straight from a poem by Eddington (not sure of the first name). Did you mean this? http://user.tninet.se/~ecf599g/aardasnails...ex.html#results So how about some Dutch politics? Any news? How do you guys view us now? Anyone heard of the recent high school shooting here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Nairi, I heard about that, and I was having a chat about it with a coupla activists from Europe (some of them in the Netherlands, some from the UK who have visited the Netherlands), and they don't seem to like the situation there at all, especially when it comes to immigration.. Like Fortuyn said, "This is a full country. I think 16 million Dutchmen are about enough." Nearly one half of 18-30 year-olds recently polled want to see zero Muslim immigration. (this in 2002, I expect the numbers to have risen as more people become aware of the problems..) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1971462.stm I think I agree with pretty much all of Pim Fortuyn's ideologies/beliefs. Such a shame that he was assassinated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Nairi, I heard about that, and I was having a chat about it with a coupla activists from Europe (some of them in the Netherlands, some from the UK who have visited the Netherlands), and they don't seem to like the situation there at all, especially when it comes to immigration.. Like Fortuyn said, "This is a full country. I think 16 million Dutchmen are about enough." Hmm. This is probably the most controversial topic right now. Even though the Fortuyn era seems to have died down a bit (and why wouldn't it, especially after the embarrassing, yet highly predictable fall of the last cabinet?), the discussions on immigration and foreigners in Holland are still very much at the forefront of everything. You could almost say it's a conspiracy to cover up the real issues As for numbers, I'm afraid to ascertain whether they have risen or not, but it is being made into a national issue. It seems that that is all people can or want to talk about. As if the "solution" to the "immigrant/foreigner" problem will solve all the other problems as well. Or perhaps I should say that the immigrant/foreigner problem is the only one in Holland, but carries so much weight that it is fundamentally destroying the inherent peaceful nature of Dutch society. Do note that when Dutch people speak of "allochtonen" (i.e. non-natives), they are mainly referring to Turks and Morrocans. Out of 16 million inhabitants, no more than 2.5 million have another ethnicity than Dutch. These include roughly 385,000 Morrocans, 360,000 Turks, 250,000 Surinamese and 9000 Armenians. As for Pim Fortuyn ever gaining the status of hero and martyr will have to be seen... He only attracted the popular masses. No one else took him all too seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hey Nairi, I think the Dutch have hit the nail on the head by talking about immigration first and foremost. I think it's one of the top problems non-third-world countries are facing, and definitely the root of a lot of other problems. The Dutch are the only ones so far who have actually realised that immigration might destroy their country, especially with the new wave of muslim fanaticism invading Europe.. I think Netherlands has a bright future. As for nationalism in other countries in Europe, it's pretty much dead (except maybe in Ireland, although there's still the issue of the IRA and all the clashes in there..), goes to show what happens when lemmings take over countries.. Lemmings like Blair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 (edited) Hmm. This is probably the most controversial topic right now. Even though the Fortuyn era seems to have died down a bit (and why wouldn't it, especially after the embarrassing, yet highly predictable fall of the last cabinet?), the discussions on immigration and foreigners in Holland are still very much at the forefront of everything. You could almost say it's a conspiracy to cover up the real issues As for numbers, I'm afraid to ascertain whether they have risen or not, but it is being made into a national issue. It seems that that is all people can or want to talk about. As if the "solution" to the "immigrant/foreigner" problem will solve all the other problems as well. Or perhaps I should say that the immigrant/foreigner problem is the only one in Holland, but carries so much weight that it is fundamentally destroying the inherent peaceful nature of Dutch society. Do note that when Dutch people speak of "allochtonen" (i.e. non-natives), they are mainly referring to Turks and Morrocans. Out of 16 million inhabitants, no more than 2.5 million have another ethnicity than Dutch. These include roughly 385,000 Morrocans, 360,000 Turks, 250,000 Surinamese and 9000 Armenians. As for Pim Fortuyn ever gaining the status of hero and martyr will have to be seen... He only attracted the popular masses. No one else took him all too seriously... I think Dutch should realize that their own queen and crown prince are 'allochtonen'. An 'allochtoon' is someone with 1 or 2 parents who were not born in the Netherlands. Their own royal house isn't even Dutch, in fact, they now have a German-Argentinian princess. The 'immigration' issue wouldn't be such an issue if the Dutch knew how to handle it; who to let in and who not. My mother has been a interpreter for Russian/Armenian asylum seekers for 6 years now and she sees every day the sheer stupidity of Dutch immigration politics. She told me Tchechens (who 95% of the time come here to kill Russians living in Holland) are allowed without questioning, while a Russian boy she translated for, who was 15 years old, came to Holland all by himself, escaped from his alcoholic and abusive parents and showed a great willingness to learn, was sent back immediately. As for the Turks and Morrocans, they brought that upon themselves: in the fifties and sixties the Dutch were unwilling to do household/heavy work (some sort of misplaced elitism I guess) so they brought tens of thousands of Turks and Morrocans over. And now they want to get rid of them. Hypocrisy or what? Just my two euro's Edited January 30, 2004 by gurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I don't know. All I can say is that I fortunately don't have close contacts with the Dutch government to know more precisely what's going on in their heads, but whenever I do catch a glimpse of what they have to say, I'm usually more disgusted than enlightened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I don't know. All I can say is that I fortunately don't have close contacts with the Dutch government to know more precisely what's going on in their heads, but whenever I do catch a glimpse of what they have to say, I'm usually more disgusted than enlightened. I think this statement could safely be generalized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I think this statement could safely be generalized. In other words, it's a worthless cliché Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 In other words, it's a worthless cliché Sireli Naïri, every one of your thoughts is priceless, every one of your words is a source of inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 The 'immigration' issue wouldn't be such an issue if the Dutch knew how to handle it; who to let in and who not. Is there ANY first-world country that KNOWS how to handle immigration? If they did, first-world countries would've been places one could live in -- and they clearly aren't anymore. My mother has been a interpreter for Russian/Armenian asylum seekers for 6 years now and she sees every day the sheer stupidity of Dutch immigration politics. She told me Tchechens (who 95% of the time come here to kill Russians living in Holland) are allowed without questioning, while a Russian boy she translated for, who was 15 years old, came to Holland all by himself, escaped from his alcoholic and abusive parents and showed a great willingness to learn, was sent back immediately. JUST like Immigration Canada deports Russians and turns a blind eye to the thousands of illegal Chinese/black immigrants. I see Europe has the same problem. Created by who? White lemmings who don't have an ounce of national pride and would sell their own country for 10 euros of it ever came down to that. As for the Turks and Morrocans, they brought that upon themselves: in the fifties and sixties the Dutch were unwilling to do household/heavy work (some sort of misplaced elitism I guess) so they brought tens of thousands of Turks and Morrocans over. And now they want to get rid of them. Hypocrisy or what? No. It is not hypocrisy. It is about waking up and realising that they've done something wrong. In another 50 years, if Europe doesn't wake the hell up, it will be dominated by muslim fanatics (who would kill you and me in the blink of an eye if they had the chance to). Watch my words. If Dutch people are now aware of the problem they are facing or are soon going to face (if they don't put an end to immigration), I'd say they have a chance at correcting things. There is a limit to everything -- immigration being one of those things. Once given a patch of land, those Turks and Moroccans will demand the entire country, just like the Pakis are doing in England. And while Armenians are also considered immigrants or "outsiders", the same thing couldn't be said of/to them, because wherever Armenians have gone (with the exception of the rabiz Armenians who form gangs in L.A, from what I heard), they have been productive members of society or the communities they have been taken into, and most important of all, they have been good citizens who have not done (with a few exceptions) anything illegal (or at least anything violent - gun crimes, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 (edited) Don't get me wrong, I don't like muslim fanatics and I certainly have a distaste for Turks, but I think the way they are treated doesn't really help their integration. A Persian friend of mine has a brother who called an office to apply for a job. He talked with a Farsi accent and was refused bluntly. An hour later he called the same person, now speaking with a British accent. He was told that he could 'come and take a look' Edited January 31, 2004 by gurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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