Turkey's Erdogan Hints at Vote on Troops

[Rubo]

I hope Turkey's standing with US greatly damages due to refusal to allow US troops for now. Apparently BUSH threatened visiting Turkish officials that Armenian lobby is waiting to reinstate the genocide bill in congress. I hope US finally realizes how unreliable Turkey is as an ally and hopefully looks towards Armenia for more reliable partner in the region.

 

Turkey's Erdogan Hints at Vote on Troops

SUZAN FRASER

Associated Press

 

ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey's top politician Recep Tayyip Erdogan, poised to become prime minister, said his country needs more assurances from Washington on the future of Iraq before agreeing to base U.S. troops for a possible war.

 

Erdogan has backed the deployment of American soldiers to Turkey and hinted he would seek a fresh vote on the matter after parliament on March 1 rejected basing of 62,000 troops here to open a northern front against Iraq.

 

But in an interview after Sunday's sweeping local election victory that won him a seat in parliament, Erdogan appeared in no hurry to resubmit a motion on deployment.

 

"I cannot give a date. There are also steps that the United States has to take," he said.

 

Erdogan said Turkey, a key U.S. ally and the only NATO member bordering Iraq, was still seeking assurances from Washington "on the role" it would play post-Saddam Hussein. He did not elaborate.

 

Turkey, which fears northern Iraqi Kurds may declare independence in the aftermath of a war, has been pressing for a say in the future of Iraq if Saddam is ousted. Secession by Iraqi Kurds could inspire Turkey's rebel Kurds, who for 15 years have been fighting for autonomy.

 

"What will Turkey's role be? If Turkey has no role in this, why would Turkey share such a risk? This must be clarified," Erdogan said.

 

Turkey also wanted guaranteed rights for Iraq's Turkmen population, he said. Turkey has close ethnic ties with the Turkmens and is concerned their rights are being overlooked by the more numerous Kurds and Arabs.

 

A Western diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Monday that U.S. Ambassador Robert Pearson had addressed Erdogan's concerns in a three-hour meeting Sunday. The diplomat confirmed the Turks were seeking further assurances from Washington.

 

But Erdogan said his questions on Turkey's role and the Turkmen issue were not answered in his meeting with Pearson.

 

Erdogan also said Turkey would wait for the U.N. Security Council to vote on a U.S.-backed resolution that would give Iraq until March 17 to disarm or face war.

 

"We have the U.N. Security Council before us. We have the process of forming a new government," Erdogan told CNN-Turk television when asked about a new resolution. "We need to assess all these very carefully, and then we will take a decision."

 

Turks overwhelmingly oppose a war, but snubbing the United States is a risk Turkey cannot afford to take. Ankara would strain ties with Washington and forfeit a $15 billion U.S. aid package offered to offset the effects of war on the frail economy.

 

Erdogan blamed parliament's rejection of troop deployment last week on pressure from Washington.

 

"On the issue of the motion, there was no need to act with such haste," he said. "The right atmosphere, environment needs to be created."

 

Erdogan leads the Justice and Development Party, the dominant force in parliament which captured 84.7 percent of votes Sunday in a by-election in the southeastern town of Siirt. The party won all three seats contested there, paving the way for Erdogan - previously banned from running for office - to enter parliament and become prime minister.

 

Prime Minister Abdullah Gul said he would resign Tuesday or Wednesday, after Erdogan had been sworn in as a member of parliament.

 

"After he has taken his oath, I will go to the president and open the way for the formation of a new government," Gul said after what is likely the last meeting of his Cabinet.

 

Erdogan, seen as already running Turkey from behind the scenes, said he planned to make changes to the government - predicted by analysts to be the sacking of ministers who opposed the U.S. troop deployment. "We will meet with Mr. Gul ... to assess the performances (of the ministers) and take steps accordingly," he said.

 

Erdogan had been barred from running in November national elections because of a conviction for inciting religious hatred over a poem he read at a 1997 rally in Siirt, 60 miles north of the Iraqi border. He spent four months in prison in 1999.

 

He was able to run in Sunday's by-elections after Justice lawmakers changed the constitution, and voting in Siirt was rescheduled after the election board ruled a ballot box there had been tampered with during the national vote.

 

"He left with a poem, and his return was like poetry," headlined the newspaper Yeni Safak.

[Stormig]

Unreliable?

The U.S. overlooks every resolution Israel ignores or vetos resolutions against Israel, but Turkey as an ally is "unreliable"? What about the allies Germany, France, etc.? Either "unreliable" is the right word to use here, or Turkey is the U.S. lap-dog who is in turn the lap-dog of Israel. Let's come off it.

For me it was all good news in every possible way.

Irony is that Bush and Co., while pressing for Saddam's exile so that there may come into existence a democratic Iraq, in truth don't quite show much respect for democracy. Are "allies" will-less slaves?

By the way, I have to burst your bubble. Most articles you read on the internet don't mention American equipment being "escorted" to the border by the Turkish army. Turkey is a giant with two heads. What went on with the parliament was all for show. The U.S. has suffered about as much if not less than it has with all the rocking within Britain itself and the plagiarism scandals, the U.N. inspectors' reports, and its own history. Once the voting is done again, the bribe/compensation is to be paid and American forces take off immediately from the border.

[THOTH]

The Turkish parlimentary action/vote was commendable but (I predict) will likely change little in reality. Regardless of "democracy in action" in Turkey - the powers that be know where their bread is buttered. In the end its all a barter game...one that the Turks at least have the potential to be pretty good at - and one where the US diligence ussully falls short (particualry when they have their sites set elsewhere and feel they must act at all costs etc)

 

Rubo - I certainly share (what I think is) your concern - that by its cooperation with the US on this Iraq thingy - Turkey will again expect and recieve special consideration when it comes to furthur denying the Genocide (here in the states) - etc. I'm not sure if Turkey will necessarily lessen its stature - being solidly in the US "camp" by its bit of foot dragging here. The fact remains that Turkey fits very wel into US regional policy and the Turks are likewise very dependent on the US. We (Armenians) have already suffered much - over the years - due to this status quo.

 

Where the Turks may really lose it in this thing however - is in regard to the Kurdish situation. If they act as I suspect they might they may make a lot of enemies (and really torpedo their EU chances). They see the Kurds in a blinders on fashion even more so then George Jr views Saddam.

 

So lets wait and see what happens now shall we....

[khodja]

Saddam will not go with only a whimper. Just as Hitler drowned all the people who were hiding in the Berlin subway as he was committing suicide, so Saddam will unleash havoc around the globe. Be assured that chemical and biological weapons will be unleashed against the Turkish citizenry in retaliation for opening up their territory for US troops and aircraft. Don't you all remember that we Armenians have been punished by various Moslems for many centuries for giving support and comfort to the Crusaders and intermarrying our women with these Europeans.

[THOTH]

hagarag - I think that you (like our President) is/are confusing Saddam with, I don't know, someone who really has relevance and power beyond metropolitan Bagdahd...

[khodja]

Winston,

 

I firmly believe that Saddam has hidden stock piles of chemical and biological weapons. His Republican Guard is loyal to him. A dying Baathist government will lash out indiscriminantly at those of it's neighbors it considers it's enemies, Turkey, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, and of course, Israel.

[Stormig]

My only consolation that a world disaster might be prevented. Otherwise, if you look at how gung-ho Bush and Co. are, no wonder the Turkish parliament didn't want to be an accomplice! What were they expecting, people being dumb enough to paint targets on themselves?

[Rubo]

I agree both of you Stormy and Thoth that Turkey is and will be a US puppet but I was hoping with some facts backing me on this that Bush administration is not happy about the delay and millions wasted due to Turkish parliament vote. I believe US will see that Turkey is just a prostitute demanding money for perceived or unperceived reasons. I do hope that Greeks and Armenians make every effort highlighting the Turkey’s duplicity and hopefully tarnish the image for good.

[bellthecat]

You are a stinking bit of s**t. And much more. If I was to verbally express exactly what I felt about people like you then I'd be banned from this forum.

 

So if it was Armenia rather than Turkey that America wanted to transport its troops through, then you would happily agree to it? That seems to be what you are saying. I don't doubt that you would allow hundreds of thousands to die in Iraq just so you can feed a little bit of your sad, ongoing hatefest against Turkey.

 

The world does not revolve around Armenia. Armenia could vanish tomorrow and it would make no difference to almost everyone. The only power that Armenia can be certain of ever possessing is the authority it should possess by being morally correct in everything it does. But you (and the likes of Kocharian) would not have a clue about what I am talking about here.

 

If the Turksh parliament continues to hold fast against US intimidation then Turkey's standing with the rest of the world will be greatly enhanced. It has done its EU aspirations no end of good. Maybe Armenia in its present state would make an ideal "partner" for America - the same sort of ideal partner that a drunken whore would make for a murderous gangster.

 

Steve

[Stormig]

Oh no, that would tarnish their own images. If Spain led by Aznar, almost as far away from Iraq as is the U.S. for all the fact that the geographic distance is perhaps half counts, can do what it wants so freely, with no incentives, I don't know what "case" can be made out of what you mentioned. Let us not forget that the Turkish government maintains that the "bribe" is a compensation against future losses, which were promised during Gulf War I like so much was promised in the Balkans with nothing to be given to the Serbs in exchange for Milosevic (or so they interpret). Irony is that the loss is going to be there with or without the northern front.

 

This reminds me of a cartoon from some time ago in which Bush says to the North Korean dictator, "We don't like commies owning nuclear weapons," referring to China. Kim asks, "Present company excluded?" Bush: "Er, yes." Come on, let not anyone be as dumb as that hick. The Spanish government has been proven to be more disgusting than the Turkish one. No wonder. Spaniards enslaved the whole of Latin America and reduced the civilizations there to a mere nothing within a matter of decades, no compensation, restitution, apology. What yesterday, that today.

[Rubo]

You are a stinking bit of s**t. And much more. If I was to verbally express exactly what I felt about people like you then I'd be banned from this forum.

 

So if it was Armenia rather than Turkey that America wanted to transport its troops through, then you would happily agree to it? That seems to be what you are saying.

Wrong!!It is your assumption

I don't doubt that you would allow hundreds of thousands to die in Iraq just so you can feed a little bit of your sad, ongoing hatefest against Turkey.

For your unpenetrating mind I must say I was in the anti -Iraqi war rally in Boston among my friends! As for hating Turkey? Politics is about opportunity and Turks have played this game very well through centuries and there is no reason why strategic thinking can be characterized as hate. You are confusing personal feelings with issues!!!

The world does not revolve around Armenia.

Who said it does!

Armenia could vanish tomorrow and it would make no difference to almost everyone.

It makes a differance to me!

The only power that Armenia can be certain of ever possessing is the authority it should possess by being morally correct in everything it does.

But you (and the likes of Kocharian) would not have a clue about what I am talking about here.

Correct I am clueless since I am not a phychic!

If the Turksh parliament continues to hold fast against US intimidation then Turkey's standing with the rest of the world will be greatly enhanced. It has done its EU aspirations no end of good. Maybe Armenia in its present state would make an ideal "partner" for America - the same sort of ideal partner that a drunken whore would make for a murderous gangster.

no comment

As for your personal outbursts it garnishes no worthy reply.

Steve

[bellthecat]

So what on earth were you saying? Presumably you must agree that Turkey has done the right thing in refusing America access (which also happens to be the thing that 90 to 95 percent of the Turkish electorate wanted). Yet your words show you want to take advantage of the difficulties Turkey will have after making that correct decision. And you would want Armenia in a role of "reliable partner" of the US doing the exact opposite of Turkey and saying yes to whatever America wants. I hope the rest of those in that Boston anti-war march were not so lacking in sincerity - it looks like a case of "I'm against the war, except if it is going to benefit me".

 

Steve

[Rubo]

Steve

Politics is like chess good opportunity is not presented often and the game has nothing to do with morality but winning it.

Armenia must and should maximize every opportunity it gets to advance her interests and if we did that properly in the past then we would not have been in this craphole now. I always view politics as means to advance forward. Nobody talks about the morality of the Turkish massacres or the thousands of Kurds killed or displaced (US and EU can care less)

France’s stand has nothing to do with morality of saving Iraqi lives (they killed thousands of Arabs during the Algerian occupation) but everything to do with investments and EU leadership.

[aman]

Chess and politics? Wrong analogy. One is game the other is not. And for morality, of course it is important to achieve the goal, but the way you achieve that goal matters more. Poh...you cannot disregard morality after protesting the war in Boston! You are against the war but don't think morality matters...Strange!

[aman]

It is a matter of independence. Allowing foreign troops in one's country will damage the sovereignty of that country. I am against it and respect the decision that Turkish Parliament made. It makes sense. But the USA is of course very strong and influential. I am sure Turkish officials are vascillating between the decision of allowing americans go through and being friendly to europeans to enter EU. I am sure there is political and economical blackmail going on. Bottom line, id turks don't allow american troops to go through I respect that. It is a decision of thei parliament which represents their people and sovereignty.

Best regards.

[THOTH]

Hagarag -

 

I understand what you are saying about a cornered animal lashing out...I am just skeptical of Saddam's ability to make good on any threat. On another forum I have already offered to bet anyone that Saddam will launch neither chem/bio or even any significant number of missiles...even in his death throes...will you take me up on that bet? I don't doubt that in fact he might have these sorts of things (toxins & such...)...the question is being able to weaponize and use such (not untrivial). Don't you think we would have exposed these weapons if in fact they exist as such? It is ne thing to gas some villagers & such - quite another to employ such in a more regional setting. I truly believe that we have not much to fear from Saddam this go round...even less then last go round...even then what was he really able to accomplish?

 

Any cautions that I may have concenring this "war" have little to do with any real threat from Saddam...

[KoRn]

"I'm against the war, except if it is going to benefit me".

 

That's right. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

It seems like most of you here have a very short memory of Turkey.

Why are you getting so offended about the Turks loosing the trust and the "friendship" of the US over the Iraq issue? Yes, Armenia should take an adnvantage from the situation, if Turkey finally decides not to let the US use the bases.

 

The world does not revolve around Armenia. Armenia could vanish tomorrow and it would make no difference to almost everyone.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't make a difference to you, or else you wouldn't say such a thing.

 

Allowing foreign troops in one's country will damage the sovereignty of that country. I am against it and respect the decision that Turkish Parliament made.

Too bad that you're not being respected back.

 

Eshi ankanjum knatsek chem haskanum??? Some of our leaders did the same thing not notiecing the train that passed them by.

 

I agree with you 100%.

[Rubo]

Chess and politics? Wrong analogy.

 

Right analogy! Chess lovers and players know how every decision one makes affects the game as a whole and politics in Washington or anywhere is the same game played which only most skilled succeed.(I know the obvious differance lol) One talented foreign minister can do a lot.

Nothing strange about my personal principals. I am and was always against the war as a human being but also I am Armenian, member of a tiny tribe hence my preference will always be supporting her before my personal morality or interests. AS long as Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide and does not provide any compensation then I will always pounce on Turkey on every opportunity. It is in my blood I can’t help it…Call me vengeful if you will it does not bother me.

 

Korn thanks for understanding my message.

[Stormig]

Rubo, chess is one mind directing a mere few elements (pieces) against another, but politics and history are as dynamic as the atmosphere. You can get a computer to chess, but the farthest it can go with the other is mere simulation.

 

As for your principles and what's in your blood, you're just full of s**t and should be ashamed of yourself. You're just about as "principled" as any politician, whatever it is you contribute to this world is merely a figment of your imagination.

[KoRn]

That's every Armenian's obligation.

[bellthecat]

Which is why so many Hyestan Armenians don't deserve any consideration. Like you admitted, double dealing and backstabbing is in your blood. You are completely untrustworthy. Your word means nothing. You are always out for yourself, expect everything from others, take whatever is going, but give nothing of substance in return. Nothing you say is believable because, if circumstances change, you will discard those beliefs like an unwanted coat. And nothing about the dangerous emptiness of your "morality" will ever bother you - even when other Armenians, following the inevitable logic of that same morality, stab you in the back.

 

Hitler loved chess, so did Napoleon - sending milios to their death like they were nothing more than playing pieces. I hate chess and I hate chess players.

[sen_Vahan]

Steve who bells the cat,

 

Why don't you stop your emotional storm here which makes no sense? It seems you are close to the boiling point...

 

"But you (and the likes of Kocharian) would not have a clue about what I am talking about here."

 

I am afraid you yourself do not have a clue what a crap you are talking.

Take a cold shower that may help.

[aman]

Morality is universal. There is no such thing called "personal morality." Well, it is a personality conflict. Walking the road you talk is important for one's personality. Bragging about morality and later doing the exact opposite damages the self. So you have a different personality for different circumstances! okay?! I am sorry that those historical event led to this point. I am not blaming you or any other armenian for their sentiments for turkey or turks. For that I will sa nothing. But to wish for the devistation of people is as immoral as the original crime.

[Rubo]

QUOTE]As for your principles and what's in your blood, you're just full of s**t and should be ashamed of yourself. You're just about as "principled" as any politician, whatever it is you contribute to this world is merely a figment of your imagination

Your verbal vulgarity makes no sense. As about my contribution to this world being figment of my imagination? Ask that question to my sons, wife, friends dope!

[Rubo]

AS usual forum is seldom the right environment to expand any given subject before some ill-tempered member wants to point out that you are wrong etc before contemplating deeply about any subject.

Politics is fundamentally about opportunity and inopportunity to advance one’s cause whether be it civil rights or the Armenian genocide and often lot of money and lobbing is necessary to achieve the desired objectives and morality has nothing to do with this process otherwise US would of recognized the Armenian genocide decades earlier. Is it right that US gives billions to Israel while they have been suppressing the Palestinians for years? of course not but this being the real world Jews have been playing the game pretty well. My point is that Armenians must and should act what is in OUR ITEREST and those interests can be shaped by competent professionals who I would assume will have the ability to think in cold logic, dissecting and arriving to most logical solutions.

I am not going to waste time talking about morality, Turks etc. There is nothing wrong exploring and exploiting any given situation as long as one is trying to advance her country and that is what really takes place in the real world daily, in stock markets, in Washington, in Tel Aviv, in Ankara. It is about the time to use our brains…