aman

quote:Originally posted by nairi:Azat jan, the Dutch government is as divided over the war as the American people, although they have agreed not to send troops to Iraq. The American government completely distorted this by claiming that Holland supports them 100%. However, regardless of what the government of the country I live in thinks, I'm happy I still have a mind of my own. As for American intelligence, I never claimed Americans were not intelligent; I merely said that common sense is not a necessity to get a diploma, and a diploma is not a necessity to learn common sense. University diploma is a way to get a good paying job in America. Many americans hate school but go through it to be able to get a good job. They look forward to get out of school and to make money. University diploma is business capital...Academic achievement, education in real sense....what is that?

Huh, of course, the oil might not be the only reason. And probably is not. There is, most probably, pyschological facts. Rumsfeld was secretary of state in 1991, Dick was secretary of defense, and Powell was a general in military. Of course, "Bush"'s dear father was the emperor by then. The emotional pressure and the desire for revenge and the need for Black Gold are the driving forces. The Iraqi nation is not the only one to be liberated. There are Koreans, Zimbabwe people, Tibetans, Palestenians, Argentinians and other South Americans.............Why Iraq?

Greetings my brothers and sisters, I would like to write about an issue that has occupied my mind for a very long time. My thoghts are not based on any explicit research but based on the pieces of information that have been given to me throughout my educational life. No doubt that the current events also instigated this composition and rendered me to share it with you all. What I want to write about is neo-colonialism! What is it? How did it appear? How does it work and what does it try to achieve? And of course, the effects of this implicit ideology in the status quo global political structure are the questions that I would like to attemt to answer. Colonialism is a very familiar action to many nations of the world. Either to colonised or to coloniser. Here are some of the traditional colonisers: England, France, Portugal, Spain......and the colonised ( in this case it is easier to mention the continents instead of individual countries ) South America, Africa, Asia..virtually all continents. What is colonisation or colonizing? It is exploitation, it is exraction of resources ( extraction: not replacing, not sustainable, ) exploitation of men power, slavery, imperialism....Colonization is what England did to India, China, South Africa, Canada, Americas...Likewise with the other colonizers. They fought with each other for what belongs to indigenous people of these countries and they still do it. They killed each other for the resources of others! How did it all start? How did this colonialism start? How did this wave of physical, military occupation of countries start? Answering this question would be deviate from the real issue. And I assume that the audience of this essay has a pretty firm background knowledge of the history of the world. But it would be safe to start from the industrial revolution that swept the world and ignited the still continuing wave of globalization. What or who is the culprit of this exploitation of indigenous people, this insatiable greed, and desire for constant accumulation? It is what they call capitalism. It started with the movement that took the means of production away from the laborers and gave it to industrialists whose actions are solely about maximizing their profists. Of course, this can only be done either by cutting the cost of production, or raising the prices. The meaning of cutting the cost of production is very clear. It involves either reducing the wages, reducing the labor contribution to production or playing with the tax rates and so forth. Of course, the exploitation of the labor class is the main issue here. Clearly, and naturally, by the very definition of the system of capitalism, keeping labor dependent, oppressed, and controlled in any way it can be is legitimate means of maximizing profits. This is the dirty, filthy reality of capitalism. It is a way of legitimatizing the exploitation of the "South." "South" is where the Marxism is understood and respected. Why? Clearly, no one likes to be imperialized, exploited, controlled and be dependent or a victim of so called poverty trap. Only ideology that opposes this plague is Marxism or close forms of this ideology ( socialism, communism.) If you pay attention, you will realize that these ideologies are very popular in the "South" and rightly so. What is wrong with Socialism or communism? I claim that there is nothing wrong with socialism or communism! So, why Soviet Union is not any more? I claim that if it was not for Stalin who used "people" to serve the regime instead of regime serving the people, the Soviet Union would still be existing. Stalin and his successors did not care about people. They cared about prevailing the regime, and serving th regime. They forgot or ignored the meaning of socialism. But, this was not what was intended by Vladimir Lenin. Lenin established the Union to serve the people. It was not specifically to exalt the prolateria and belittle the aristocracy but to create equality. It was not about denouncing the conveniences of technology or other material goods. It is Stalin and his 5, 10, 15...year plans and his ambition of exalting the communism rather than protecting what communism was about: PEOPLE. ( Same goes for Mao.) Lenin, when he was sick and isolated from state affairs, said " Get rid of Him! I don't trust Him." But...it was too late. Anyway, was Marx right about what was going on? Was he right about the exploitation and the implicit goal of so called capitalism. In my opinion, he was. The exploitation was not limited to prolateria but was carried on different dimensions. The need for cheap resources to maximize the profits, for cheap labor cost the Rain Forests to humanity, displaced people, comdemned them to hunger and misery. Look at Africa.....the beloved continent of many! Africa, the continent which is identified with misery....hunger, plague, war...... South America, Asia....likewise were exploited by G-7 or G-8 whatever the f*** they are called. TO BE CONTINUED! But waiting for your valuble comments! Best regards!

quote:Originally posted by MJ:God have mercy... Amen..

My friend. You are not the only one who does not understand the current events. It is not because the events are too complicated to be understood; it is because the intentions and rationale! Allow me to explain. The rationale behind the U.S attack to Iraq and invasion is different than the intention! But the intention of this invasion, or rather the real reason behind it, would not be approved either by the world's people or the governments. Does this mean that no one knows about the real reason? Or does it mean that only those protested the war know the real reason behind it? No. Many people, if not everybody who knows what neo-colonialism is, can figure out what is going on. The senate did not allow to dig Alaska for oil, the reserves are running down, Iraq is denominating its oil via Euro, and the decreasing demand in dollar rendering it weaker, thus the U.S can import less and consume less..... If it was really about the security, fear of terrorism and so forth, it would be N. Korea that the U.S was attacking, not Iraq. N. Koreans revived their nuclear program and will b capable of producing and marketing their nuclear weapons in few months. But for some reason the US government is not concerned about that as much as it is about already dismantled and contained dictator. Kim Jong Il is a sick man and he would not hesitate to bomb Tokyo, Seoul or San Francisco. Clearly, if he is capable of producing nuclear weapons, it is peace of cake to produce chemical or biological crap. It is not only you who does not understand the nature and the reasons of this conflict. It is neo-colonialism my friend. Politics politics politics po...il olil oil oil oil Have fun and best regards!

quote:Originally posted by Raffi the Illuminator:Clearly in my humble opinion, either the time for dialogue has not arrived as of yet, or it is long gone. Perhaps I'm just too emotional as of right now and still very angry and hurt by comments that have been made by some Turks about myself and about other Armenians as well. I would not pay attention to insults by anyone. Those who insult are not capable of engaging in dialogue and communication. There are people like that in any nation. It is unfortunate but real. I am sorry for those who does not have anything else to say but insults. What a shame...what a shame.

quote:Originally posted by Rubo:AS usual forum is seldom the right environment to expand any given subject before some ill-tempered member wants to point out that you are wrong etc before contemplating deeply about any subject. Politics is fundamentally about opportunity and inopportunity to advance one’s cause whether be it civil rights or the Armenian genocide and often lot of money and lobbing is necessary to achieve the desired objectives and morality has nothing to do with this process otherwise US would of recognized the Armenian genocide decades earlier. Is it right that US gives billions to Israel while they have been suppressing the Palestinians for years? of course not but this being the real world Jews have been playing the game pretty well. My point is that Armenians must and should act what is in OUR ITEREST and those interests can be shaped by competent professionals who I would assume will have the ability to think in cold logic, dissecting and arriving to most logical solutions. I am not going to waste time talking about morality, Turks etc. There is nothing wrong exploring and exploiting any given situation as long as one is trying to advance her country and that is what really takes place in the real world daily, in stock markets, in Washington, in Tel Aviv, in Ankara. It is about the time to use our brains… I beg to differ. Politics doesn't have to be one way. Nations can engage with plitical relations to benefit all sides. Of course this is the ideal situation. The situation that you are supporting is the realist theory. Even though the dominant policy is determined via the realist theory idealist theory is also very much possible and can be implemented. But nations with extereme nationalistic views, greed, dependency theory and poverty trap are the principle policies. Of course we also have neo-colonialism and neo-emperialism. For some f***ing reason we just cannot get to the bloody table and start talking about the issues and make decisions that will benefit all sides. It is a shame. It is a shame for all sides. Turkey must do everything she can to help Armenia and participate in Armenias development. Nationalistic issues, radical views must be given up and all sides must work with considration of the economic, cultural and intellectual development of the people of this world. Though we all know that Turkish government is really preoccupied and self-centered like many other governments. They cannot even protect the rights of their own citizens. Anyway, someone has to start the communication. Armenians, turks, iraqis........whatever. Peace for all for God sakes!!!!!

quote:Originally posted by Rubo:Chess and politics? Wrong analogy. Right analogy! Chess lovers and players know how every decision one makes affects the game as a whole and politics in Washington or anywhere is the same game played which only most skilled succeed.(I know the obvious differance lol) One talented foreign minister can do a lot. Nothing strange about my personal principals. I am and was always against the war as a human being but also I am Armenian, member of a tiny tribe hence my preference will always be supporting her before my personal morality or interests. AS long as Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide and does not provide any compensation then I will always pounce on Turkey on every opportunity. It is in my blood I can’t help it…Call me vengeful if you will it does not bother me. Korn thanks for understanding my message. Morality is universal. There is no such thing called "personal morality." Well, it is a personality conflict. Walking the road you talk is important for one's personality. Bragging about morality and later doing the exact opposite damages the self. So you have a different personality for different circumstances! okay?! I am sorry that those historical event led to this point. I am not blaming you or any other armenian for their sentiments for turkey or turks. For that I will sa nothing. But to wish for the devistation of people is as immoral as the original crime.

quote:Originally posted by Bass:Dear Domino and Thoth, thank you for weighing in on this topic. Okay, maybe the Armenian genocide was not all because of religion, and I’ll accept that. But I will tell you this, there are far more books written about what triggers the genocide act than anything other topic ever written in history. I tend to believe the majority and my own personal experience. But I will read and learn more about what happened to the Armenians, because it is worth knowing about. Oh, by the way, Ali. Read the real history about Spain and Queen Isabella get the truth straight, and stop reading the history books from your Turkish libraries. You yourself admitted that the Turks have twisted the history about the Armenian genocide and brainwash there children in schools by distorting the truth. You live in America know, you can find the real history books. Here is your quote: “Many of you probably have never been to Turkey and don't know about the general outlook about the genocide issue. It is rejected by Turkish educaton system. That is, the genocide is an Armenian claim according to Turkish History as it is taught in turkish schools” Well, this is it for me on these sad topics, but I think I’ve made my point. Thank you for this website and I will see you in other happier topics. Thanx for telling me what to do again. 1- This is not my reality. This is the reality of the jews and the events that they organize every year to express their appreciation to the administrators of those times for accepting them to their country when they were displaced by the Spanish Queen. 2- When I say I am only interested in the reality that means, ethically, I would not try to mislead people with what I thing is false information. Although I studied the turkish side of the history that is not the only side. I am not an absolutist but a relativist. Turkish education system twists the history to a certain extent so as to show turks as mighty, independent and powerful nation. But I have my own mind and studied different perspectives about the same issue. 3- Real history? What are you talking about? Spanish side of the history is as twisted as turkish side. Or Iraqi history and so forth. I study facts, find them and make my own decision about the reality of what is written. 4- Yes, turkish side of the history might be twisted about the Genocide issue but turkey has nothing to do with Isabella's expelling the jews and therefore there is no reason to twist the history. 5- "Yes my turkish librariries" We have many good, real, objective books translated from different languages. My friend, what you cannot do is accept the reality. I merely told the truth and you took offense. Suffering in the world is real! The hunger in Africa, environmental degradation, diseases, poverty and other kinds of misery were all mostly caused by colonialism of the catholic France, Spain, Portugal and other colonizers. And oddly enough, eventhough they admit their doings and accept responsibility they still do it in a different way and would do it in an old way if they could!!!!!As I write these in the university library I am looking at the books defining, explaining and elobrating on neo-colonialism, neo-emperialism of Catholic justice that is only valid for Vatican. I don't look at reality with my religion or through my religion! But I look at reality with my eyes and evaluate it with my brain. The reality is spreading of the sexual and other types of diseases via catholic Europe, the reality is the use of religion to confiscate the property of indeginous people of other continants by catholics. The reality is, that even catholic missionaries help this people to do something for God, not really to help those people, but to fulfill their religious duties by converting them to Christianity. The reality is Catholic greed that corrupted the 3/4s of the entire world. The reality is that if people are worshipping to a different god they are considered as primitive by Vatican. The reality is Engizition and torture chambers. You told me the reality about my people practicing Islam and there is the reality of your people of Catholicism. But neither your nor my people had any one like HINDU Ghandi! I accept too. But would Vatican? I doubt it! Well, is this the religion's fault? No, it is the people. Their unethical, bogus, fake faith. They don't walk the road they talk. That is it. This is of course true for other people practicing other religions. Bottomline is, I am not just writing to write. I am not writing to have my point accepted or approved. My goal is to be a teacher and that requiers a certain ethical principle such as reflecting the reality as objectively as possible. You can attack turks, turkish government and turkish libraries if that will satisfy you. But it won't do any good to you besides satisfying your hurt ego because of my rightous, real, and objective remarks. You know what, I am not happy because so many ugly things are ascribed to some of my people either. But it is reality and I must accept it. This I must do to have self-respect, to respect reality and to be a good teacher and to contribute to intellectual development of my students. Good day to you! [ March 14, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: justaman ]

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: quote:Originally posted by Rubo:I hope Turkey's standing with US greatly damages due to refusal to allow US troops for now. Apparently BUSH threatened visiting Turkish officials that Armenian lobby is waiting to reinstate the genocide bill in congress. I hope US finally realizes how unreliable Turkey is as an ally and hopefully looks towards Armenia for more reliable partner in the region. You are a stinking bit of s**t. And much more. If I was to verbally express exactly what I felt about people like you then I'd be banned from this forum. So if it was Armenia rather than Turkey that America wanted to transport its troops through, then you would happily agree to it? That seems to be what you are saying. I don't doubt that you would allow hundreds of thousands to die in Iraq just so you can feed a little bit of your sad, ongoing hatefest against Turkey. The world does not revolve around Armenia. Armenia could vanish tomorrow and it would make no difference to almost everyone. The only power that Armenia can be certain of ever possessing is the authority it should possess by being morally correct in everything it does. But you (and the likes of Kocharian) would not have a clue about what I am talking about here. If the Turksh parliament continues to hold fast against US intimidation then Turkey's standing with the rest of the world will be greatly enhanced. It has done its EU aspirations no end of good. Maybe Armenia in its present state would make an ideal "partner" for America - the same sort of ideal partner that a drunken whore would make for a murderous gangster. Steve It is a matter of independence. Allowing foreign troops in one's country will damage the sovereignty of that country. I am against it and respect the decision that Turkish Parliament made. It makes sense. But the USA is of course very strong and influential. I am sure Turkish officials are vascillating between the decision of allowing americans go through and being friendly to europeans to enter EU. I am sure there is political and economical blackmail going on. Bottom line, id turks don't allow american troops to go through I respect that. It is a decision of thei parliament which represents their people and sovereignty.Best regards.

quote:Originally posted by Rubo:Steve Politics is like chess good opportunity is not presented often and the game has nothing to do with morality but winning it. Armenia must and should maximize every opportunity it gets to advance her interests and if we did that properly in the past then we would not have been in this craphole now. I always view politics as means to advance forward. Nobody talks about the morality of the Turkish massacres or the thousands of Kurds killed or displaced (US and EU can care less) France’s stand has nothing to do with morality of saving Iraqi lives (they killed thousands of Arabs during the Algerian occupation) but everything to do with investments and EU leadership. Chess and politics? Wrong analogy. One is game the other is not. And for morality, of course it is important to achieve the goal, but the way you achieve that goal matters more. Poh...you cannot disregard morality after protesting the war in Boston! You are against the war but don't think morality matters...Strange!

quote:Originally posted by Bass:Justaman, don’t be angry with me, because I am not angry with you. You’re agreeing with me but don’t realize it. Let me simplify this for you, you ready….. I agree at one time in history that Catholics abused their religion and became barbaric, but you can’t deny that Islam did the same thing and still doing it in the name of Allah! “There goal is to eliminate all Christians and Jews, and make the world twisted, perverted and Islamic." I am talking about the fundamentalist Muslims like Sadam and Ben laden. Like I said before, many Muslims have saved us from being killed and they were put to death for it. So you see it isn’t that I hate the Muslim people, it is the fundamentalist Muslims that I hate and have no sympathy for. You can’t blame me for hating them. You see, I’ve insulted your religion only a fraction of what insults I’ve received from the Muslims in Iraq, and look how mad you’ve gotten, words only, I haven’t laid a hand on you or killed any of your family. So, if it is okay for you to get mad over words, then it is okay for me to get mad over losing half of my family by murder. Well, peace be with you. Islam did not do the same thing. It is not the religion but the people! I am not mad at you because you insulted Islam. I can care less. What I am mad at is you are insulting Islam and and expecting support and approval. “There goal is to eliminate all Christians and Jews, and make the world twisted, perverted and Islamic." "perverted and muslim" not " islamic." That is the correct quote. I sympathize all religions, but I don't sympathize with radical people and they have no right to hate or criticize other people's beliefs. I won't do it to other people and will not allow other's do the same thing to anyone else ( if I can.) All these guys are my brothers and sisters. And you have no right to express your hatred in such a way and expect approval, sempathy and support from them against me. " I hate muslims for that" You talked about the dirty business that some of the so called practitioners of Islam engaged with. You talked about messacars, genocides and other things. Yes, I don't deny the reality. Those people who committed those awful acts claimed to be muslims. I accept that. But when you make a generalization and blame all muslims and express your anger in an ugly way I cannot accept that ( Not because you are expressing it but because expecting sempathy and approval from my brothers and sisters and fanning their fire of hatred.) It does not matter whether I accept it or not. But the reality is not all muslims are like you are trying to present. If you and I are at the same page and I am misunderstanding you then I apologize. Yes, you have many friends from different faiths but you only received brutality and intolerence from muslims, didn't you? You received insults, all kinds of aggression and stuff from muslims. I got tired of this BS. If you are catholic you are catholic...good for you. And anyone can ascribe any ethnoicity to him/herself and practice whatever religion they want to. Do not ascribe the personal actions and experienes to a larger population and make it a general attribute of Islam. Or please be coherent. Either you are not able to express what you are trying to say or changing it all the time. First you are writing that you hate muslims, then saying no just Saddam and Bin Ladin type, later you are saying 9/11 is Islam's doing because they acted for Allah.......then you are saying I am misunderstanding you. First they are attacking you, brutalizing you and now some of them are saving you and being put the death for that. Why are you telling these piece by piece. Why didn't you give those people who saved you some credit to start with instead of saying " I hate muslims for that"? I am thinking that you must make a decision, right? Take care. If you are going to blame Saddam say Saddam not Islam, if you are going to blame Bin Laden say Bin Laden. These people are not the sole representatives of the religion of Islam. Just like those who eradicated multiple races, caused ever lasting poverty on the world are not representatives of the religion of Christianity. Do you understand? It is enough. I hope you do. Even you don't I had enough of this subject and won't discuss it any more. Take care. [ March 13, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: justaman ]

quote:Originally posted by hayemyes:Dear Bass, I would have to rather disagree with you on the idea that the Armenian Genocide was caused by religious differences. I can say that that could have been a factor, but one of the main reasons as we know it, is that Armenia has always been in the way of the Pan-Turanic empire that the Turanians had always dreamed of. All the other regions had become part of it, until it came up to us. We were bothering and closing the way to that empire, so that's where Turkish hatred began and caused the Genocide, among other factors. Makes sense. Those Pan-Turks, the racist radical group caused many problems not only to other ethnic groups but to their own people. The hatred against French and Russians might be another factor. God knows what the political reality of that time was. But so far I agree with you about Turanic part. The damn thing still exists. It just does not make any sense. Bloody thing appeared in the 19th century when the empire was going down. Until then everybody lived peacefully. Take care all!

Those fanatics who committed the 9/11 attacks are not the representatives of the entire Islamic world. "Many of us were persecuted just because we were Catholics, and the only reason the other side hated us, because they were muslims. Look at what they are doing now, do you think these people will stop….. I think not. There goal is to eliminate all Christians and Jews, and make the world twisted, perverted and Islamic. " Twisted, perverted and Islamic. These are unfortunate words. Does that mean my parents now perverted? What do my parents have to do with 9/11? My mother prays for peace for everyday. Can I or did I blame you for the satanic action of the Spanish, Portugese or French just because you share the same religion with them? Those are the ones who spread the epidemic, committed genocide, brought slavery to 20th century and they even justified their doings. Did I blame you because Spanish Queen Isabella displaced all the Jews and/or had engizition take care of them in the torture chambers? They were catholics!! Emperialism is perverted, colonialism, dependency theory, and poverty trap that have been implemented by catholic Spanish, Portugese and French along with others...Don't you share the same religion with those who punished those poor people? And how perverted do you think those actions were? And how logical is it for me to blame you for these? And how logical is it for you to blame all muslims for what you were subjected to? Please, come to your senses!! "I’ve only experienced 1% of the type of persecution that the Armenians have endured, and I hate the muslims for it." Since the past is important and cannot be disregarded and the actions of those catholic nations changed the history of the world and humanity and caused increadible suffering and pain then it is perfectly legitimate for me to blame Christian religion and the cultures that practice Catholicism. This makes sense as much as your statement about 9/11 does. Those catholics caused millions to perish. A whole race, multiple races and cultures were eradicated by catholic world. And those actions are the main causes of the poverty in the South! India, South and Central America, Africa. Hunger, poverty has prevailed ever since catholics steped on those lands to impose their religion. In the name of God. Not 3000 not 4000 or 5000 but MILLIONS perished. And neo-emperialism is continuing to be implemented by your catholic brothers. So you must be guilty too! How logical is that man? There you go. Hatred is against any religion for any reason. But it is real and justified though it destroys the self and very being of the bearer of those feelings. Anyway, be cool. [ March 13, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: justaman ]