aman Posted March 15, 2003 Report Share Posted March 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Rubo:AS usual forum is seldom the right environment to expand any given subject before some ill-tempered member wants to point out that you are wrong etc before contemplating deeply about any subject.Politics is fundamentally about opportunity and inopportunity to advance one’s cause whether be it civil rights or the Armenian genocide and often lot of money and lobbing is necessary to achieve the desired objectives and morality has nothing to do with this process otherwise US would of recognized the Armenian genocide decades earlier. Is it right that US gives billions to Israel while they have been suppressing the Palestinians for years? of course not but this being the real world Jews have been playing the game pretty well. My point is that Armenians must and should act what is in OUR ITEREST and those interests can be shaped by competent professionals who I would assume will have the ability to think in cold logic, dissecting and arriving to most logical solutions.I am not going to waste time talking about morality, Turks etc. There is nothing wrong exploring and exploiting any given situation as long as one is trying to advance her country and that is what really takes place in the real world daily, in stock markets, in Washington, in Tel Aviv, in Ankara. It is about the time to use our brains…I beg to differ. Politics doesn't have to be one way. Nations can engage with plitical relations to benefit all sides. Of course this is the ideal situation. The situation that you are supporting is the realist theory. Even though the dominant policy is determined via the realist theory idealist theory is also very much possible and can be implemented. But nations with extereme nationalistic views, greed, dependency theory and poverty trap are the principle policies. Of course we also have neo-colonialism and neo-emperialism. For some f***ing reason we just cannot get to the bloody table and start talking about the issues and make decisions that will benefit all sides. It is a shame. It is a shame for all sides. Turkey must do everything she can to help Armenia and participate in Armenias development. Nationalistic issues, radical views must be given up and all sides must work with considration of the economic, cultural and intellectual development of the people of this world. Though we all know that Turkish government is really preoccupied and self-centered like many other governments. They cannot even protect the rights of their own citizens. Anyway, someone has to start the communication. Armenians, turks, iraqis........whatever. Peace for all for God sakes!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 15, 2003 Report Share Posted March 15, 2003 Rubo, don't make me repeat myself. Americans like you sanction torture for a "cause" as unworthy as Bush's "war on terrorism" which has carried itself to Iraq, only hoping that the mullahs in Tehran who have been called upon by their moderates to sign the U.N. Convention on Torture have not read the revelations on the front page of the Washington Post. All in the name of "interests."Unplug yourselves, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 Well? And? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfArmenia Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Oh, come the hell off it. Absolute ignorance of realpolitik is what has sunk Armenian aspirations for generations: people who think that the world revolves around ideals, rather than truths, and drag the entire nation down along with them. turkey didn't refuse the US because it cared what the people thought, but because it cared with the EU thought. If the turks cared what the people thought, it wouldn't launch coups every couple of generations to negate the will of the people in a democratic vote and install a military dictatorship to "steer the nation back towards kemalism." turkey wants desperately to enter the EU, and this was a great way to do it. Why the hell didn't the government complain all these years when US bases dotted turkey to watch the USSR? What, THAT was a good crusade against evil communism? Come on. All nations act in their own self-interest. That is the first lesson in politics. Sovereign states play the game to win. Hell, it's called "the Great Game" for a reason, you know. And hell yes, I would let the US put troops in Armenia. Guess what? I'm here right now. Our nation is the dog of Russia. If the choice is being the dog of Russia or America, then I choose America. There is no such thing as absolute sovereignty for anything less than a global superpower, and even then it's hard to do. Pff, stop being so happy for our enemy... Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 I think that Turkey's decision not to send troops into Iraq was made with a number of considerations. First and foremost Turkey is risking an incredible backlash at home and the possibility of fanning the flames of (radical) Isalm wihtin its borders. Also Turkey has to live with whatever comes out of the mess called Iraq - as they are neighbors - and they have to at least some degree not alienate themselves from other Islamic countries - and being quick to the beck and call of the US would certainly not help them in this regard. And yes - I think Turkey realises that there is little to gain and much to lose and that they become clear targets when they associate with this effort and when their troops are out there in the line of fire (for who knows how long). And even once out - memories would not fade so fast - Turkey knows that there are those who wouldn't forgive their involvement. I also think the whole Kurdish situation obviously complicates things. And Turkey - I think - wnats the freedom to conduct its own actions on its own terms in regards to the Kurds and not to be tied into anyone elses game plane over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfArmenia Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Again. If it cared about its population, then it wouldn't overthrow governments the people elect because the army doesn't like that government. Quite simply, turkey is playing realpolitik, which is the game of politics; it is hooking itself up to the EU, though that is pointless, and alienating its main benefactor. In other words, it's losing the game of politics that it had been winning for years simply due to dumb luck. The EU, despite claims otherwise, its anti-Islam, and has already laid conditions that turkey can never agree to (for example, it has to recognize the Armenian Genocide). The US demands its satelites be loyal, and is outraged that turkey is trying to lean away from it. turkey is doing now what Armenia did in 1921: it's playing both sides against eachother, and losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 24, 2004 Report Share Posted June 24, 2004 Oh, come the hell off it. Absolute ignorance of realpolitik is what has sunk Armenian aspirations for generations: people who think that the world revolves around ideals, rather than truths, and drag the entire nation down along with them. turkey didn't refuse the US because it cared what the people thought, but because it cared with the EU thought. If the turks cared what the people thought, it wouldn't launch coups every couple of generations to negate the will of the people in a democratic vote and install a military dictatorship to "steer the nation back towards kemalism." turkey wants desperately to enter the EU, and this was a great way to do it. Why the hell didn't the government complain all these years when US bases dotted turkey to watch the USSR? What, THAT was a good crusade against evil communism? Come on. All nations act in their own self-interest. That is the first lesson in politics. Sovereign states play the game to win. Hell, it's called "the Great Game" for a reason, you know. And hell yes, I would let the US put troops in Armenia. Guess what? I'm here right now. Our nation is the dog of Russia. If the choice is being the dog of Russia or America, then I choose America. There is no such thing as absolute sovereignty for anything less than a global superpower, and even then it's hard to do. Pff, stop being so happy for our enemy... Christ. I don't see what the army has overthrown this time - in fact the current government has weakened the army's status in the security council as far as I know. And please - Turkey's past military coups are not like what you witness in Latin America or the Mid East (I mean the circumstances and life-spans, not the torture stories). As for the EU, it is obvious that there's always going to be an excuse, legitimate or not, to prolong the process. After all, did Poland have to fear giving support? The UK has been into it big time, as was Spain to a different degree. Sounds worse than Turkey's position given much opposition themselves, realpolitik or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfArmenia Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Wait, explain how the military coups of turkey are "less" than others? The military decides that the will of the people is against the principles that the nation was founded on, and so overthrows the legitimately elected government and rules until it believes all parties are back in line. In the time it rules, it represses anyone it feels is anti-kemalist, and outlaws whole political parties. If you can get the crescent and star out of your eyes long enough, you might see that they are just as brutal and oppressive as they were when they annihilated our people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Wait, explain how the military coups of turkey are "less" than others? The military decides that the will of the people is against the principles that the nation was founded on, and so overthrows the legitimately elected government and rules until it believes all parties are back in line. In the time it rules, it represses anyone it feels is anti-kemalist, and outlaws whole political parties. What rubbish. If it were as blunt as you put it, Turkey would be told out the door of the EU and told to never come back. Now, the Assads' Syria asking to be let into the EU would be just that. You just have to ask a member of the older generation what it was like before and after coups and from the perspective of their daily lives, some might recount of how they'd be going to school and all of a sudden you'd hear gun-fire and automatic rifles and everyone would throw themselves on the ground until it subsided. Guerrilla warfare on the streets and civil unrest has nothing to do with a "national will" or a "common good." All of that somehow would end the day the military declared a coup, as if factions were all of a sudden chicken after their slogans, not very difficult to believe how people will blindly chant the name of a cry-baby declaring his allegiance to Turkey on a plane back from Kenya. Yes, that is quite unlike quite a few military dictatorships we know to last decades and which have been funded externally. On the political front (the above was daily life), some of the hindrances to proper democracy stem from the Turkish constitution itself, which has successively been a legacy of the military coups and has been increasing undemocratic. That still doesn't make anything the 666 evil you would like to believe it to be. That is why you have (or had) a "civil constitution initiative," Etyen Mahcupyan being a participant himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Quite simply, turkey is playing realpolitik, which is the game of politics; it is hooking itself up to the EU, though that is pointless, and alienating its main benefactor. In other words, it's losing the game of politics that it had been winning for years simply due to dumb luck. The EU, despite claims otherwise, its anti-Islam, and has already laid conditions that turkey can never agree to (for example, it has to recognize the Armenian Genocide). The US demands its satelites be loyal, and is outraged that turkey is trying to lean away from it. turkey is doing now what Armenia did in 1921: it's playing both sides against eachother, and losing. BTW, is it "realpolitik" that the U.S. bored (and still bores) the E.U. by giving a letter of recommendation for Turkey every now and then? Strikes me as one of the things consistent with U.S. policy over the years, including in the aftermath of last summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted June 25, 2004 Report Share Posted June 25, 2004 Again. If it cared about its population, then it wouldn't overthrow governments the people elect because the army doesn't like that government. It IS America you are refering to here, isn't it? <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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