There are no Kurds in Turkey

[wh00t]

The guys on the ground, they are "mountain Turks".

 

http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/photo1.jpg

http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/photo2.jpg

http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/photo3.jpg

 

"The pictures published here are evidence of a savagery that took place in April 1995 in the district of Hakkari in the Kurdish regions of southeastern Turkey. The perpetrators of this act were Turkish soldiers, members of the Hakkari Mountain Brigadier Command, and the victims are four members of the People's Liberation Army of Kurdistan (ARGK). These photos were featured on the cover of the January 11-17 edition of the London weekly "The European".

The savagery of the Turkish state is not limited to the Kurdish regions of Turkey, however. During its cross-border operation in northern Iraq in March and April of 1995, disregarding international outcry, members of the Turkish armed forces massacred seven shepherds in Dahok in the same manner."

[aurguplu]

have you seen the pictures of what those heads did when they were on shoulders?

[Kazza]

At this point I think it would be a good idea to pursue the discussion forther? Lastyear in my country Kurds were refugees because there was a lot of trouble with "ethnic cleansing"

[bellthecat]

Ali, everyone knows that these Turkish special forces "rambos" can kill whoever they like, and then just put a gun beside then, which makes the victims PKK and thus it is all OK.

Even if they were PKK such activity is not acceptable. Reproduce a picture like this enough times and Turkey's percentage chance to enter the EU goes from single figures to zero. Todays only Croat fascists and the occasional KLA terrorist can get away with this sort of thing (but they have German support).

Steve

[aurguplu]

steve,

we know of the deeds of the turkish commandos. all commandos everywhere have always been doing the same, that includes the serbian, russian, british, and american commandos.

we know that they kill non-terrorists (not whomever they like) and put guns next to them. but the thing is when you kill such ones, you are unlikely to pose with their heads (just speculating). second, being paranoid does not mean you don't have enemies: one of my duties as a translation officer was listening to the med-tv (the pkk propaganda channel) and there they did not deny the things we have always accused them of doing.

you do not live in a country where you experience everyday terror. i do. if in my country you stop buses, ask for "visas" to kurdistan, kill turkish civilians, poison city water mains, explode bombs in shopping malls, kill teachers in front of their wives, scalp the heads of my soldiers and PUT THEM ON and take pictures with them (have you seen these pictures? i have, and not in govt propaganda channels), kill two year old kurdish babies in their cradles, then i chase you to the ends of the earth, and when i get you (there is no if, i will get you), i do as i please with your head. and if people cannot accept this, they should first turn around and look at themselves and not support such organisations in the first place. the pkk had semi-official status in almost all of the eu until it turned around to shooting germans.

if i am going to be called a barbarian for that, so be it. i couldn't care less.

[ThornyRose]

I have watched MedTV aka MedyaTV a few times when I've gone abroad for a couple of weeks at a time... And they have disgusted me. Total zombies.
As for the above, I wish they didn't happen at all. Nobody has the right to say we can't fight against such agressors, true (only stuck-up-pig European MP's that wear the PKK's colours do - sod them for not wearing Circassian motifs [i think I said something about that somewhere a while ago] on the rims of their coats ); but I also think that such shouldn't happen. Those people above are sickos - not avengers.
The same may happen with other countries' troops (let's see what happens in Afghanistan sometime), but I think we could have set an example by seeing to it that such acts do not occur. They cannot be justified. Thus, we would have prevented ours while the others wouldn't have, and we, "Turco-barbarians," would have had the right to scoff at them, "noble Europeans" - not they at us.

[ThornyRose]

And, of course, it is the Europeans' (and perhaps the whole world's - but Belgium and Germany keep coming to mind) "bad" not having raised their voices when all those you outlined (asking for visas, killing babies) happened but rather doing so when militants were perhaps pulled a bit too hard by the arm or something. "Human rights" - if only those who championed such, I could call humans myself.

[Kazza]

Oh good. It's good to see people responding to this topic, because it's an interesting and important one.

 

I think that's absolutley right, the point about onlookers saying how terribe the international events are, and the few that can do something about it don't. To be looking on is as bad as committing the deed yourself.

 

Bear with me if my information is not correct, but The first impression I got about the Turkish Police force is that it is known for being corrupt. And also against it's own people. There have been articles posted on this forum, about it abusing their own women. Is this right? I mean , Ali is a real person telling the situation as he lives it, he's not just some article. As the others are not either.

 

But you see, I don't know enough about these things! Mabye I need to be taken in hand and properly trained.

 

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Kazza ]

[ThornyRose]

Kazza, the Turkish police are abusive, true...

Torture is common - yet look at what the U.S. is saying it is going to do now to make suspects talk.

But it is not by and large against its own people. It's not like an army - it has a flexibility of its own. And the people there are the same as myself or any other citizen.

My younger cousin is married to a guy who used to work in the police force - he had been raised to be one from high school, onward, because it was the only way for him to get out of his world and get somewhere. He did get to eventually study at a university (management, I think).

He admits that most of the geeks in there are from the lowest cut of our society - people with no brains but perhaps some physique (and not always that)...

However, I do get angry when they (foreigners) talk about the police abusing citizens during protests. I have seen on TV the same being done in Germany, beating folks up with battons. I am not saying I am for it, but I also think some people are not in the position to talk.

Additionally, I hadn't believed my father when he said it was usually the guys walking about that instigated the whole thing, until a few years ago, I saw on TV what it can be like. One cameraman was present at one protest, and the policemen were there with their barricades and everything. One of the protestors actually started the whole thing by pushing one of the cops and perhaps making a slur - his lips were moving. The policeman moved him back, but the guy's friends this time attacked him for daring to touch their friend. The whole thing grew like a grain around a nucleus. The whole thing turned pretty violent, totally out of control.

It's not like I'm saying that the cops shouldn't have had better control over the situtation. But, under these circumstances, with such an ignorant population, this is what you get - IMO.

Now, take Italy - the dweebs passed a law recently, reducing the Italian policeman's rights to a level below that of the ordinary citizen - that he is not allowed to protect himself from verbal or physical abuse. The protection here is not about not being allowed to run away - it is about his having to accept beatings if he is cornered or something, not allowed to fight it off.

Another thing I have to say about torture: I am not totally against it. I am for it if the people involved are not suspects but proven terrorists or equivalent criminals. Anyone watched "Dirty Harry"? I don't care for a piece of shit's neurologic comfort if there are lives at stake. I don't say the same for "information" - the hierarchy of an illegal organization or what have you. My stance there is clear - it is only and only for human life.

I know it is not sound or likely to get correct information from people who will, under the circumstances, say anything if you feel they are not telling enough - even if they have told everything they know - but then the "experts" can think for themselves. (Doesn't the lie-o-meter really not work?) I am against its use randomly, with women and children and elderly picked up from the street.

If only the U.S. had said this earlier. Maybe even the good old Europe will get to use it if it ever comes to that, Europe being subjected to terrorism (except it will use scientific and healthier methods to be more "civilized"). Then I will laugh my butt off.

I say this even though an innocent relative of mine (make that a cousin - daughter of my mother's cousin) had to "disappear" on her own will because of the police - and she was tortured often. That is why the "proven" aspect is important.

However, until there can be a mechanism, bureaucratic or otherwise, set up to ensure a proper way to go about this, the world sucks with torture the way it is.

[Azat]

Torture is common - yet look at what the U.S. is saying it is going to do now to make suspects talk.

 

Thorny for those of us that do not know, what are they going to do?

[Azat]

Thorny, It is against US policy to torture anyone. I assure you that the people who use any form of torture will be prosecuted and punished. This includes Military, Police and every level of the American government. It is completely against the American psyche as well.

[Azat]

Thoth, I personally am against "cruel and unusual punishment". I am against the death penalty because I really feel that it does not accomplish much. There are statistics on both sited of the issue that show that it works/it fails, but I just think that it is inhumane.

For instance, I feel the death of Timothy McVeigh is not going to stop the fundamentalists in US from committing crimes. US is not any safer not that McVeigh was killed. Plus it costs SO much more to kill someone than to incarcerate them for life. And when a "McVeigh" is put to death he becomes a hero for others, but behind the bars over time he is just another criminal. This is also why I hope they catch Bin Laden alive.

Just my opinion...

[ThornyRose]

I've heard on news on TV here that they are going to torture mere suspects they think are responsible for or somehow involved in the Sept. 11 attacks.
I've also read about it on other forums.
And everybody and their cats and dogs were talking about it here the day it was made public.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thorny Rose:


I've heard on news on TV here that they are going to torture mere suspects they think are responsible for or somehow involved in the Sept. 11 attacks.
I've also read about it on other forums.
And everybody and their cats and dogs were talking about it here the day it was made public.

---

I think that this "report" is mistaken. In the US there does not exist the presence of torture of the sort that is commonplace in Turkish prisons (and by Turkish police) on a regular basis - except in the most abberent cases. Certainly there is no policy for torture. What might be done by special forces etc outside US territory is certainy another matter - again this is not routine policy - but an extra-ordianry measure. In the US the populace does not react favorably in any way to this sort of behavior by public officials - even by soldiers. This is one aspect where I think US society has matured - where other nations (such as Turkey [and perhaps Armenia as well]) lag behind. Turkey happens to be the poster child (from the more or less "developed" world) for this kind of abberent behavior against its own citizens. I can't think of any good excuse for it.

All that being said - I am actually an advocate of "cruel and unusual punishment" (for violent [or major] criminals who cause great public or personal harm. Your concept of proven guilty is of course important to me - not some suspect - but someone who has been clearly (fairly) convicted. I think that punishments need to be more stringent in some cases and need to fit the crime. I am also for eye for an eye type of punishments in some cases. Of course these attitudes on my part betray my Ottoman/Middle Eastern roots a bit - don't you think? No matter - it is how I feel.

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[ThornyRose]

I can't look for a report right now, but it probably does exist on Ed's forum if you look. Here's why: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?fo...geid=1004502422

[aurguplu]

kazza,

the turkish police is corrupt, violent, ill-trained, ill-equipped and unprincipled (allowing for exceptions). no doubt about it, the state and the police forces themselves admit it. now let us examine each of these traits in turn:

1. corruption: the police is corrupt because i) he must be in order to make ends meet. your average police in turkey gets something around $100-150/month salary if i am not mistaken. now the starvation threshold of a 4-person family is above that. the bribes they receive from, say, drunken drivers are called "soup money", indicating where they go. there you are. ii) he can be and get away with it: corruption is all-pervasive in turkey, and people do not see much moral wrong with petty officers taking bribes if they are left on the brink of starvation by the state, which meanwhile gorges itself full with outsized mercedeses, antelope-skin leather upholstery, new mansions, salary increases when all salaries are cut by three quarters etc. the time-honoured practice of corruption was even sanctioned by our late prime minister & president turgut özal, who, upon commenting the absymal quality of life of civil service personnel, said "my civil service personnel know how to get by, they find a way in any case". also, they have been issued authority and a gun, and turkey, never being a free society, simply bows to power.

2. violence: violence and torture to specific groups (communists, separatists, even facsists and fundamenalists) was originally ordered from above either to make them talk or to intimidate opposition. now you have to separate state-ordered systematic torture from wanton violence at demonstrations. the first is being abandoned now thanks to massive western pressure and an increasingly open society that is developing inside turkey. the second stems from the behaviour of the demonstrators and the unaddressed problems of the police. most western (and some turkish) civilians miss the essential point that if you are going to use violence, you have no moral right to complain about violence being used against you: if you behave like an animal, you are going to be treated like one, and frankly speaking i see nothing wrong with that. now if the civilian demonstrators smash property, beat up people, call for the overthrowing of the state, and attack the police, what would you do if you were a policeman?

3. ill-trained: the sight of the police handling primary evidence with bare hands at the crime scene of the murder of üzeyir garih, a well-respected businessman, was on all tv screens and showed crystal clear the lack of training of our police force. this is again a question of money and efficient, principled state. you cannot blame the poor guys for that. it is the government that should foot the bill.

4. ill-equipped: the turkish police uses outdated and faulty equipment, has a shortage of protective equipment, legal investigations are made on a shoestring budget, and the criminals are frequently better equipped and trained than the police force.

5. unprincipled: yes they are. read the above and tell me whether you would not be if you were a turkish policeman.

we are not going to get anywhere unless and until we recognise that the people whom we accuse of violating human rights are human beings too and are entitled to the same rights as we are.

cheers,

[THOTH]

Ali, et al -

 

(excellent post BTW) But on the lighter side of Turkish police corruption (LOL) - my own experience with "Turkeys finest" (and luckily I can laugh about it) -

 

I was driving (I think) somewhere between Fetiye and Antalya - on a major (but 2 lane) road - following a line of traffic. We crest the hill and a Turkish police car is on the side of the road where there is a big broad turn out area. A policeman is standing by the road and motioning every vehical off the road. They then come by and look in the car and based on this either wave you on or wave you over to the "line" - of course I was waived to the line. I noticed that the proceedure was to get our of your car and line up at the squad car (where an officer sat accepting "payment" for the "infraction". While in line another officer steps up to you and indicated your infraction/fine that is scrawled on a rather worn and faded notebook (even the ink is worn and faded - not a new violation that has just been written down). In my case the officer pointed to a fine that was the equivelent of about $200US. Well I protested vigorously (though no one understood English). I got into a very heated argument with the officers (regardless that we each did not speak each others language - lots of gesturing and yelling - etc - on both sides...). (I mean every vehicle was going the same speed - why was my violation so much higher - not sure I was even in violation at all...). So the line started to back up (slowing down the "take") - my wife was indicating that I should just pay (telling me "midnight express"...LOL) - but I persisted anyway - ademently refusing to pay anything close to what they were demanding. They eventually pointed to another much lower figure - about the equivilant of $10US - I happily paid it (no receipt or such was given) and went on my way...LOL

 

I know that many stories concerning the Turkish police end much more tragically - and there is a real problem (that you articualted very well). I am glad to not have had that sort of encounter...

 

[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[bellthecat]

Ali - you do not live in a city where you experience everyday terror - you live in Istanbul. If you want to experience everyday terror I think you should be living is Bingol or Mus or similar places!

You seem to be saying that just because one side commits atrocities it is OK for "your" side to do it. But all you are doing is pouring more fuel on the fire.

I suspect a lot of people here will see direct parallels with this photo and similar photos taken during the Armenian genocide. I wonder - would you like to live next to those soldiers, would you like your daughter to marry one? Your views are not barbarian - they are just rather thoughtless.

[Kazza]

To Steve and ALi (breifly):

 

I strongly agree that if the opposing side is doing something wrong, then it's definatly not ok for your side to do it. Pouring more fuel on the fire wil make your side look as bad and therefore give it a bad reputation, which means nobody will be able to trust either, even when you are dong good.

 

But, you can live in terror anywhere, whatever you are doing. I don't know much about the subject , but if so many are stating as a fact, that the Turkish police force inflicts unnescessary abuse then you don't have to be living anywhere in particular.

 

Don't shoot me down. pls! just my point of veiw.

[ThornyRose]

Prosecuted - will be or are they being...?
The American psyche - what is the American psyche? Not being able to understand how stupid this whole operation in Afghanistan is? And, no, I am not talking about the winter cold.
It took years of terrorism and a no-fly-zone for Turkey to move its troops into Northern Iraq - yet the first chance it gets, the U.S. sends its own half-way across the world even if it is not proven it is Bin Laden!? And, instead of criticizing and ostracizing, you now have Italy (yes, I am obsessed with Italy's hypoopy-cricy) sending support.
And did I not read somewhere that quite a few Americans support this operation??
If it is going to be "rules above all else," yeah, they will get prosecuted.
But "rules above all else" is not the way the world goes 'round... In fact, it was never spoken out in public here, but, many times, when there were those European MP's (OK, I'm generalizing here - guilty as charged) going bananas over terrorists and pontificating at length over "human rights" (yeah right), a lot of people here were saying, "Just you wait and see."
Indeed, this strike and this new torture business with mere suspects (not even militants!) has proved us right. It is easy to go on and on and yap and smear all that crap across one's face when not ready to relate.
And I think "Dirty Harry" conveyed a message whose significance one cannot belittle.

[ThornyRose]

I agree 100%, only to add that one doesn't really have to live somewhere where there is such to understand and relate and feel...
The way we relate to what had been going on in our country, other people in the world should have been able to relate to, even if the interest/exposure decreases exponentially. Alas... These Italians are funny people.

[Azat]

Will be. Not "are they being". Because there has not been a single case where anyone has shown an American soldier or military official torturing anyone in this war.

American psyche is much more complicated than anyone gives it credit. We did not become the most dominant country in the world in the brief 200+ years of history that we have by being a group of 270 million idiots. I personally disagree with the way the war is being handled in Afghanistan as well, however we did not wake up one day and said today we are going to attack Afghanistan. It was only after they attacked us on our own land.

America does not owe the right to prove to you or to I that Bin Laden was guilty. They did show to the appropriate parties that he was behind the WTC bombing, and the embassy bombing. This includes the officials of your country who are willing to become the first Muslim country to send troops and also Pakistan who is one of the main supporters on the Taliban.

I am sorry I misunderstand this statement ("And did I not read somewhere that quite a few Americans support this operation??
") If you are talking about the war against Taliban, then yes over 80% support it. 88% men and 81% women according to the latest stats.

Thorny, I repeat I do not know of any torture being committed by US military. Maybe it is not being publicized in US, but I even went to the website you recommended it just sounded like the opinion of some radical guy. He had nothing cited from anywhere. I am not saying that there are no people being killed. For sure there are. It's a huge military operation. But so is the unfortunate price of wars.

[ThornyRose]

No need for the truth, either, then, if we are not owed an explanation?
As for our gov - sod them.

As for the link I provided - it is just to another forum where I think there may be something on that. I didn't go after and have a look, but his commentary points to the possibility that he has posted such before. As for radical - you bet he is.

[MJ]

Thorny,

There is no shred of doubt that Bin Laden was behind the actions (not the first one, by the way). (I know it for sure. It is proven. There is a Ceritficate of Proof signed by Yassir Arafat. )

About 85% of the American population (according to the polls), including my whole family, supports the operation. If I was conscripted to the American Army, I would've not hesitated for a moment to come at Al-Qaida and Taliban with all the power available - the sole purpose being total eradication.

Please tell me what do you see stupid in our retaliation, and wohat would you consider proof.

[ThornyRose]

MJ, I am not convinced that it is Osama.
I see little wrong in retaliation. However, I think that you may be punishing the wrong people in the first place, undesirable though they are.
What makes me doubt the certainty? A lot of things. Consider, for example, the way a lot of the Arabs supposedly on that plane as hijackers turned up at the American embassies abroad and pleaded innocent and said they were alive and well and at home all the while.
It gives me the image of something being tried to be slapped into shape haphazardly - and there you have Osama! Hoo haaa!!
That does not warrant proof for me, although, in this case, Osama's denial (if it is denial) of involvement will not mean to me that he isn't involved - but, really, the way things are seen, don't you think that the U.S. IS doing a bad disservice to itself after all, practically falling into a certain trap of Osama's, maybe? Maybe there are arse-kisser governements (like the all-noble Italians who care SOOOOOOOOOOOOH much for the eradication of terrorism!) here and there sending troops (and please don't say they owe it to the U.S. as payback for aid), but you will see that a lot of PEOPLE around the world are angered by this. Now, are WE stupid?



No, I am not into the "U.S. is a bully" polemics (but do laugh at the view of self as "liberators" - come on, how to explain the continued existence of a regime that oppresses 51% of its women [the Saudis] and good relations with it when they are thinking to damn much about the Afghani people, too?)... But, sitting around, looking at the papers, watching TV, listening to folks, etc., I was surprised they just made a swift dive into Afghanistan, as easy as that. Just some people were saying they had evidence (what evidence?) and they planned and executed.
It's like us Turks listening to and unconditionally accepting the government go on and on about how we are tried to be torn apart by enemies from within and from without (true, to an extent - but not always the way they make it). No-one owes proof? OK, then - Armenia harbours the PKK. There. And Ankara does not owe us any proof. What? Armenia denying it, you say? Of course, they are, the bastards. We have sufficient proof cuz we say so; our intelligence has notified us so. There, let's go get'em. Better not wait too long, too... Who knows if the Armenian government will run away... Who says I'm naive? I mean, 80% of the people have bought into my stuff, so no problem there... Why bother with an explanation? Pooh.

It's just that there are no moral explanations to this - but it is us the people that have to control this sucker.
Come on - what's with the Saudis? Why are such oppressors (51% - a record?) favoured by the U.S.? Does it have to be pain inflicted on you to make a difference after all? What have you been doing/telling the Saudis to do to improve their human rights record (oops!! any mention of such?)? What, Saudi Arabia not candidate for the E.U.? What's moral about that?