Iran

[MJ]

Iran deploys extra troops on Azeri border to counter NATO, US "threat" - paper

 

Sarq

24 May 01

 

BAKU

 

Text of E. Sabir report by Azerbaijani newspaper Sarq on 24 May entitled

"Iran expects threat from Azerbaijan"

 

"Iran is anxious about the strength of Azerbaijani Navy in the Caspian"

 

Iran recently deployed many military units in southern Azerbaijan [northern

Iran] and regions bordering [Republic of ] Azerbaijan.

 

Political analyst Qabil Huseynli believes that the deployment of extra troops

is probably connected with Iran's military doctrine or rooted in a military

secret.

 

However, if this is about the deployment of extra troops, it means that Iran

has decided to increase the number of its military units in southern

Azerbaijan within the framework of its military doctrine. This could be

connected with both geopolitical factors and internal problems in the

country. Iran has often talked about threats from the north. Iran has made an

absurd claim that the strength of the Azerbaijani Navy in the Caspian Sea is

growing. In addition, Iran has been making statements about the possibility

of NATO forces' deployment in South Caucasus. The Iranian regime is quite

anxious about the probability of the NATO forces' deployment near its

borders. The deployment of extra Iranian forces is not very much connected

with internal factors because Iran uses police and gendarmerie to deal with

domestic political instability. The deployment of the extra military units in

southern Azerbaijan is connected with Iran's new view of the geopolitical

situation in the region. It seems that Iran is trying to back its hypothesis

about NATO and US threat with extra military units.

 

Finally, one should note that deployment of extra units in regions bordering

Azerbaijan, is not a desirable situation for our country.

[Berj]

AZERBAIJAN BULLETIN No:22 (276),

May 31 2001

 

BAB CALLING SOUTH AZERIS TO STRUGGLE

 

"We can not hope for the realization of rights of 30 millions of

South Azeris with becoming someone a president by adopting definite

conditions. National independence should be gained with the unity of

nation and nations being suppressed by the Persian chauvinism should

be given freedom", is stressed at the statement spread by the Whole

Azerbaijani Union [bAB] on May 29 concerning the presidential

elections scheduled to be held in Iran on June 8 2001. Besides the

party "Gunesh" that was registered several days ago, the

organizations- "Salam Millat" [the organization of Azeris that became

invalid at the Iran-Iraq war], "Intellectuals Protecting the Rights

of Azerbaijani Nation", and "Nation's Will" have stated that they

will vote for a candidate, who completely supports Azerbaijan's

national interests in the regulation of Artsax conflict and oblige

to eliminate poverty in South Azerbaijan. Thus BAB supports the

nationwide position of various parties and organizations acting in

the south of Azerbaijan, but does not consider it sufficient for

national freedom.

The statement marks that none of the candidacy to the presidency from

the 30 millions of South Azerbaijani Turks have been registered, and

says that one of the candidates Ali Shamkhani from Arabian

nationality has contacted with these organizations and stated

accepting of those conditions.

[Guest]

Dear Berj I know many Iranian Azeri's. These things are lies. As MJ has said before the Iranian Azeri''s have another menthality. But I am scared that if the Armenians react to all moslem people the same way , that it would be very bad for the Armenians. If the Turks committed genocide to the Armenians, you have a point with Turks, but reacting it to the Iranians (Persian, Azeri, Kurd whatever), Uzbeks, Turkmens, Bosnians, Tatr's, Tajiks, chinese moslems , black moslems etc... is wrong.Foe example if John has done something wrong to you, you can't react it to jeff, jimmy,Jack etc... they will intitially tolerate it as they understand your anger, but later on it is likely that they react to you and then you will have more enemies, than it was likely before.

 

PS. I informed from Piruz, about Shamkhani, Piruz comes also from the same region south of Iran where Shamkhani comes from, he also has contacted the election site about him, he is not from the arab minority, He is a Lor, his grandfather came from Lorestan to Khuzestan. he said that he is an outstanding and clever General, who destroyed the Iraqi military tactics with very few means and weapons, but the Iranians won't vote for him. Because the military is seen as the supporters of the conservatives in Iran.

 

So Khatami will defintely win, and Armin my Irranian Armenian friend told me, that the Iranian Armenian people will vote for at least 95% for president Khatami.

[Berj]

Tornado, Dear,

I just posted an article, which in no way implied that I or Armenians in general react it to all those people.
And I can't get what point you were trying to make?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Berj:


Tornado, Dear,

I just posted an article, which in no way implied that I or Armenians in general react it to all those people.
And I can't get what point you were trying to make?

---

I didn't say you personally accuse other people. But this tendency among Armenians is unfortunately existent that they generalize all moslem nations and distrust them. Also i see that many Armenians are affraid that some day Iranian Azeri's and Iranian Persians would make an alliance with their shi'ite moslem coreligionist from the former soviet republic of Azerbaijan, against the Armenians. But the first issue is why the azerbaijanis of Caucasus happened to be antagonistic against the Armenians, the question should begin here. and the Solution should be foud also here, without being beligrant and spread hostilities among more nations.

[Berj]

1. 6th-11th centuries Arabs (muslim), 11th-13th centuries Seljucs (muslim), 13th-15th centuries Mongols (non-muslim), 15th-19th centuries Ottoman Turkey and Safavid Iran simulataniuosly (both muslim, chose to fight right on the territory of Armenia) and in 1639 devided Armenia in two parts between eachother. The rest is the involvment of Russia.

2.Why Azeries are antagonistic? Because they want to take the rest of our land.

[Guest]

well Berj don't you think that the moslem population also has suffred under those moslem dynasties? And don't you think that both Christians and moslems and even Jews may have suffred from some christian dynasties?

 

answer of the second question: Sorry can you inform me better? As I know the Azeri's have no intentions to take the rest of your lands, and still if the Azeri's of Baku are antagonistic to you, does it mean that the Iranian Azeri's are also like this? My general impression is that the Iranian Azeri's don't give a damn about what happens in transcaucasia, as the Iranian Kurds don't give a damn what happens in Anatolia. The same way the Basques of France are absolutely not intrested, if not disgusted at the ETA anti-ETA terrorists problems in Spanish Basque region.

The world is not that black and white.

[Berj]

Tornado,

 

Here are some quotes from your postings in "religion repression" thread:

Mr Berj

That country that you hate so much, Iran is the one and only neigbour of Armenia which keeps his borders open to Armenia

 

Berj:

You really hate Iranians...

 

First of all, Tornado, I don't hate Iran and Iranians. This is a pure product of your imagination. The Iranian culture and the Farsi language have always been and remain an object of my admiration. Besides that I can prove to you that Persians are the closest ethnic relation of Armenians in terms of language, music, anthropology etc.

You have asked me why are Armenians prejudiced about moslems. Leaving aside other moslem countries I will give you the chronology of historic events that forms our approach towards Iran in retrospective terms, which can not be overlooked beacause the major part of the current political and economic problems we are dealing with come from the past.

 

Here is the chronology:

 

448 - Yezidigerd Sasanian the king of Persia, issues an order to Armenia to convert to Zoroastrianism (Armenia was already largely Chirstian at that time)

 

451 - The Avarair battle near Tghmut river (Vardan Mamikonian vs. Moushkan Nyusalavourt). Armenians lose but the Persian army retreates.

 

482 - Uprising under the leadership of Vahan Mamikonian which brings to...

 

484 - The Nvarsak treaty (Armenia granted relative autonomy)

 

591 - Bysantine and Persia devide Armenia (the Persian king sends the Armenian cavallery to fight aganist the nomadic tribes at Persia's eastern border and Armenia is left without its major battleforce for long time). The same does the Emperor Morik of the Bysantine. He sends the Armenian cavallery which was based in the Bisantine part of Armenia to the western border of the Bysantine.

 

637 - 642 Arabs win Persians at Kadessia and Nehavend battles and establish their dominance over Persia for long time. Bysantine loses some minor battles to Arabs and retreats from Messopotamia and a part of Anatolia. The Arabic (and islamic) advance to the north is stopped (in relative terms) in Armenia.

 

Pesia converts to Islam. Bagratouni Kingdom in Armenia (9th-11th centuries).

 

Beggining of 15th century- Shah Ismail Sefevi (1502-1524) establishes the Sefevian dinasty in Iran.

 

1555 - Armenia is devided in result of a war between Sefevian Iran and Ottoman Turkey.

 

1605 - Shah Abbas displaces huge number of Armenians from Ararat valley and Nakhichevan to New Jougha near Esfahan.

 

1639 - New war between Persia and Turkey, new borders for the devesion of Armenia.

 

1722 - Uprising in Armenia lead by Davit Beg in Zangezour and Karabagh. Persians crash the uprising.

 

1724 - Ottoman Turks take Yerevan by siege.

--------------------------------

 

Tornado,

 

I know this is all history. And these events are very far from our today's life. And I agree that we should already give them only historical significance. I want to forget them. But how can I forget that Islam is not tolerant to us if in 1988 Azeries killed all the Armenian population of Sumgait. This event was the beginning of the Karabagh war.

 

Besides all this, I know that presently Iran is one of Armenian's closest partners in large number of issues. I know that Iranian Azeries do not actively support Azerbaijan. And believe me that this partnership is mutually beneficial, because I know for sure that both governments do not use emotions when dealing with each other.

[Guest]

thanks Berj for your response, I know the History of this region very well. You had some points about the Sasanid empire, but as you see both pro-christian and pro-zoroastrian generals were Armenians. If the sasanids had enough power, the Armenian history would be otherwise and you were talking biased against thechristians and pro-Zoroastrian. believe me in all cases the elite decide about the religion and the masses just follows them. this was also the case in the Sassanid empire there were lobbies of the Zoroastrian clergy and the Christian one, and the zoroastrian clergy could dominate the emperial court, while the Christian clergy could win the Armenian notables for himself.

 

 

My personnal impression is that the Armenians are not all ideologically homogenous. But those non-Iranian Armenians in the West don't want to be associated with the Iranian moslems, to be accepted by the Americans and Europeans. But this is not effective as the westerners are equally prejudiced towards all the middle Easteners nations, and Armenia is no exception, beside that the Iranians in France, Engeland , Germany and California are known as a successfull people in academic and business world, so this attitude of the western Armenians is only ignorant and offending.

 

About all the other points you made, I can't agree with you. Armenia was just located on the borderline between the Safavid/Sasanian?Iranian vs. East Roman/Byzantine/Ottoman empires. So must naturally the wars took place there. This was not planned intentionally. And you said that the purchase of cavallery made Armenia prone to the byzantines? well this was not smart of the sassanids to make vulnarable their borderlands, but most of the cavallery of the sasanids who took to battle against the Kushan were from the Western Zagros mountains, from Media and Persia.

 

And again I can't agree with you about the resettlement of the Armenians in Esfahan. This Armenian community in Esfahan was very beloved by the King Shah Abbas, and reached a level of security and prosperity which they could have not reach, in their ancestoral hometowns which were under the permanent attacks of the Ottoman Turks.

 

I honestly can't approve any allegations towards the Iranian policy regarding Armenia. In fact the Iranian empire was the only one in the history which effectively benevolent towrds the Armenians, Yes Nader shah fought Davit beg , but what have you done if you were in his shoes?

 

About sumgait and karabagh, zangezur issues, I must say that the allegations of murder and rape is made on both sides, and as I know from the reports, I have purchsed it even by the Armenian organization, the instiggator of violence have been reported being either outsiders or the agents of Turkey and Russia.

But what has one to to with the other?

[Guest]

I just wanted to say that now i am with agroup of Iranians, both Armenians and moslems, and no one thinks that Armenia is as important to Iran as Iran is to Armenia.

I personally think that the relationship between Iran and Armenia is assymetric in favor of Armenia. beside that you should take the size and powers of both countries in to acount, there are certain realities which make the stronger states different in the international politics than the smaller ones. So even ehat you say equa neigour is not a real issue, and what is strange now is that a small state is more benefitting from the reationship, the bigger state doesn't need at all.This relationship may have some little benefits for the Iranian governemnt , but nothing for the Iranian citizens. The ordinary Iranian people have peace with this idea, and now yet you say they are not trustable?

[nairakev]

Tornado,
Sumgait murders of Armenians in the Begining of 1988 was the "explosive" to put the fire of war on. The Artsax conflict started two weeks before Sumgait events. I was in Armenia at that time. Please, before talking about allegations and some "turkish agents" stories, verify the chronology of that conflict.

If you will make a chronology you won't find any massive murder of azeris in Armenia, backed by authorities. The Sumgait events where first shown on Soviet Television and clearely explaned by Genrick Borovik, that it was a massive murder where authorities did have their part of responsibility.

Once showed on TV nation-wide (all ex-USSR) Armenians did witness what happened in Sumgait, that raised a huge tension in Armenia. I got in my class a girl who was one of those first refugies arived from Sumgait. On the other hand, I had a friend who was azeri seating in front of me in the same class.

But again, talking about Armenia (let's leave Artsax aside, because at that time it was part of Azerbaijan), no authority representatives did organise any massive persecution or worse a massive murder of azeris in Armenia, till earthquake azeris lived in Armenia. And after the earthquake the situation in Artsax worsened as never and azeris started massively leave the country in the same moment armenian refugees were leaving Azerbaijan.

There was no organised murder of azeris in Armenia (again I'm not talking about Artsax, which was a war region - the frontline of conflict).

160.000 azeris left Armenia as 700.000 Armenians left Azerbaijan. This sad scenario was evident, though I regret that Armenia didn't succeed to cool down the tension and guaranty the safety of azeris in Armenia.
Check the chronology of events, please, before touching the subject. Did you leave in Soviet Union?

Your statements are sometimes so controversive that no one even a "truthful" soviet armenophobe won't mix them the way you do.

[MJ]

But the interesting thing is that we have not come to an Iranian forum to promote our importance to Iran, but you have come here to promote Iran's importance to us (and I suspect its superiority). Is there something unsettling in all this, you think?

Can I also ask what are you trying to accomplish in this forum?

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Guest]

Dear Naira

 

The chronology of events doesn't exclude the foreign involvement.

 

 

MJ

 

I have no idea, what you are talking about. But at the cyberiran are Armenian provocators (there are a lot of evidences, and the webmaster knows who they are) which at some time say they are Iranian, other time they are Turk or Jewish. To stir up troubles there. What is sad is that they want to make cleavage between different internal Iranian ethnic groups: Persians, Azeri's, Armenian, Kurds etc...

 

It is very wrong approach of the Armenians undercover and is never beneficial for the decurity of Armenia and the stability of region.

 

This just for info,

 

But mr MJ, I wonder how you hate Iran this much? I have never seen an Armenian, who hates Iran so passionately as you do ?

[MJ]

I don’t know of many provocateurs in CyberIran. I know of one. And I also know who that person is, or better to say, now, was. That issue has been resolved due to our joint efforts with the administrator of CyberIran. That person is facing the consequences of his actions, currently. But I am not a moderator of CyberIran, and the other provocations are not my concerns, as much as I may sympathies the good people of CyberIran.

 

I would also appreciate if you don’t give us lectures on national security. I have already urged you once to be more ethical.

 

And since you make an insinuation of me hating Iran and more, show me one expression of mine, which indicates that hate.

 

Also, at the risk of violating the Code of the Conduct of our forum, for which I am ready to be issued a Warning, I have to tell you:

 

Sir, I think you are an idiot, and there is not much that can be done about it – it’s too late.

 

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
I don’t know of many provocateurs in CyberIran. I know of one. And I also know who that person is, or better to say, now, was. That issue has been resolved due to our joint efforts with the administrator of CyberIran. That person is facing the consequences of his actions, currently. But I am not a moderator of CyberIran, and the other provocations are not my concerns, as much as I may sympathies the good people of CyberIran.

I would also appreciate if you don’t give us lectures on national security. I have already urged you once to be more ethical.

And since you make an insinuation of me hating Iran and more, show me one expression of mine, which indicates that hate.

Also, at the risk of violating the Code of the Conduct of our forum, for which I am ready to be issued a Warning, I have to tell you:

Sir, I think you are an idiot, and there is not much that can be done about it – it’s too late.

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

---

I hope you give yourself a warning, for insulting me. The moderator of Cyberiran told me exactly who that person is, and is neither Iranyar nor farsisteve halfbreed. So I appreciate if you mind your language.

[MJ]

This is the second time I have to call you a liar.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
This is the second time I have to call you a liar.

---

well the second time that you should give yourself a warning

may I ask you something? You seem to be a very relaxed and reasonable person, but every time you hear the word Iran you get angry and begin to cursing,. This has happened not only to me but to every body who said something about that. Whay is that?

And also from Hakob I have heared that you were telling the people be tolerant about that Israeli officials have denied the Armenian genocides. may I ask your motivations about these cathegorical imperatives of yours?

[MJ]

Let’s make a deal.

 

You find one expression of mine in this forum or elsewhere, which implies that hearing the word Iran makes me angry, or you find one derogatory statement or insinuation of mine towards Iran and Iranians, then I will issue myself three Warnings and would have the Administrator ban myself from this forum.

 

Also, have the administrator of CyberIran make a declaration and support his presumed declaration with facts on who he things the provocateur acting on my behalf at CyberIran was. And if I cannot prove the identity of that provocateur I would resign from this forum.

 

Finally, when you see Hakob next time, tell him on my behalf that he is an ass.hole, a pathological coward and a degenerate voyeurist.

 

As far as you are concerned, I call you a liar again, and reserve the right of calling you a mental handicap until you present adequate evidence of validity of your allegations per my request, in which case, I have promised to ban myself from the Hye Forum.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Let’s make a deal.

You find one expression of mine in this forum or elsewhere, which implies that hearing the word Iran makes me angry, or you find one derogatory statement or insinuation of mine towards Iran and Iranians, then I will issue myself three Warnings and would have the Administrator ban myself from this forum.

Also, have the administrator of CyberIran make a declaration and support his presumed declaration with facts on who he things the provocateur acting on my behalf at CyberIran was. And if I cannot prove the identity of that provocateur I would resign from this forum.

Finally, when you see Hakob next time, tell him on my behalf that he is an ass.hole, a pathological coward and a degenerate voyeurist.

As far as you are concerned, I call you a liar again, and reserve the right of calling you a mental handicap until you present adequate evidence of validity of your allegations per my request, in which case, I have promised to ban myself from the Hye Forum.

---

You may say that those insulting messages on Cyberiran were not yours? (even though you are a registered member there, so no one can impersonate you there!) but still I don't understand something:
May I ask why is all these harsh reactions of you towrds me, Farsisteve/Halfbreed and Iranyar?
Afterall the funny thing was that at the period you came to cyberiran neither Hakob, nor Iranyar, nor Farsisteve/Halfbreed were active there! Why all those prejudices against these people? because they disagree with you on the Iranian issues?
Btw at the Hayastan board Hakob has said you are a very-smart-Jew! that board was hacked one month ago!

http//members3.boardhost.com/Hayastan

Dear mr. MJ let's let everyone has his own views, I don't like the idea of banning. I believe in freedom of expression with all?
web page Hayastan Armenian online board message no. 49

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Tornado ]

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Tornado ]

[Guest]

Also what I don't understand is why you didn't give warnings to the people who were insulting Farsisteve/Halfbreed because he was half Armenian, and even approved the actions of many people who for example mr. Raffiaharonian, Surorus, Berj, And even Garo when they were insulting and attacking mr. Iranyar, because he was non-Armenian? But why you give warning to the people who were insulting shimon-Perez or ataturk who even doesn't watch this site?

Is this not double moral and unjustice?

[MJ]

You may say that those insulting messages on Cyberiran were not yours? (even though you are a registered member there, so no one can impersonate you there!)

 

You can check the dates of the messages at CyberIran on my behalf, and check the date of my opening of a profile. If you have elementary logic, you can find out that those messages have been posted before my opening of a profile, which has been done per CyberIran’s Administrator’s advice to prevent further abuse of my online name. Additionally, if you have elementary creativity, since per my request the administrator of CyberIran has made all the IP addresses at his forum public, you can have the identity of the provocateur traced the way I have done it.

 

May I ask why is all these harsh reactions of you towrds me, Farsisteve/Halfbreed and Iranyar?

 

Just for one reason – we have had only three major league degenerates in this forum – the three of you. And if you want me to take my words back, you have to satisfy my request in my previous message.

You also indicate to me which issues related to Iran they disagree with me, and what is it that they disagree with regards to Iran that I have said. Then I may introduce some clarifications, because this is an issue beyond of the three degenerates.

 

Btw at the Hayastan board Hakob has said you are a very-smart-Jew! that board was hacked one month ago! http//members3.boardhost.com/Hayastan

 

I told you what to tell to Hakob in my previous posting. As far as you are concerned, that I think you are unimaginably stupid degenerate, who lacks logic, integrity and coherence of argumentations.

Dear mr. MJ let's let everyone has his own views, I don't like the idea of banning. I believe in freedom of expression with all?

 

The freedom of expression is granted to everyone. But the freedom implies responsibility. Therefore, I have requested multiple times from you to take responsibility for your declarations. Either you say things that you can support with facts and logic, or you don’t say them. Otherwise, you are just another provocateur.

 

P.S. For now, I will stop this polemic, until you satisfy my request.

 

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[nairakev]

MJ,
Is it you or your "evil" twin. What's up? I know that's difficult to stand a "brut" but cool down, man! I don't want you get banned yourself from this forum. Stay cool, please!

[MJ]

No Naira, it is genuine me. Don't warry about me, but let's have some fun.

[MJ]

What a pathetic personality. God help you, young man, because no one else can.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
You may say that those insulting messages on Cyberiran were not yours? (even though you are a registered member there, so no one can impersonate you there!)

You can check the dates of the messages at CyberIran on my behalf, and check the date of my opening of a profile. If you have elementary logic, you can find out that those messages have been posted before my opening of a profile, which has been done per CyberIran’s Administrator’s advice to prevent further abuse of my online name. Additionally, if you have elementary creativity, since per my request the administrator of CyberIran has made all the IP addresses at his forum public, you can have the identity of the provocateur traced the way I have done it.

May I ask why is all these harsh reactions of you towrds me, Farsisteve/Halfbreed and Iranyar?

Just for one reason – we have had only three major league degenerates in this forum – the three of you. And if you want me to take my words back, you have to satisfy my request in my previous message.
You also indicate to me which issues related to Iran they disagree with me, and what is it that they disagree with regards to Iran that I have said. Then I may introduce some clarifications, because this is an issue beyond of the three degenerates.

Btw at the Hayastan board Hakob has said you are a very-smart-Jew! that board was hacked one month ago! http//members3.boardhost.com/Hayastan

I told you what to tell to Hakob in my previous posting. As far as you are concerned, that I think you are unimaginably stupid degenerate, who lacks logic, integrity and coherence of argumentations.
Dear mr. MJ let's let everyone has his own views, I don't like the idea of banning. I believe in freedom of expression with all?

The freedom of expression is granted to everyone. But the freedom implies responsibility. Therefore, I have requested multiple times from you to take responsibility for your declarations. Either you say things that you can support with facts and logic, or you don’t say them. Otherwise, you are just another provocateur.

P.S. For now, I will stop this polemic, until you satisfy my request.

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

---

MR MJ I take responsibility for the things I say, but I'have never seen that I made any allegations or accusations to someone, but you have insulted me several times, without reasons, so I think it is you who should take the responsibility.

As I have understood, is that one of the main issues that lead to the anti-Iranian feelings here, was whether or not the Armenian language belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-european languages. This is actually a very interesting question that still a lot of linguists work on it,. Is this bad? PS. Every one should lnow that the Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages have nothing to do with the state of Iran, and not only Persian language is member of it. My and the other linguists impression is that many Armenians don't even want to think about it because they don't want to be associated with the moslems. But for example Ossetian is an Iranian language in the Caucasus which is spoken by the Christians, and maybe even more interesting for you is that fact that Tati is an Iranian language in caucasus that is spoken by the Moslemns, Christians and Jews (the latter have been the majority, before emigrating from Caucasus, to Israel).

So ...