Bush or Gore?

[Guest]

Agua-gate

 

 

So much for the political correctness in the Clinton White House. Trying to inject humor into the Florida presidential election crisis, a very senior aide explained how Vice President Al Gore will win. The aide told one of our tipsters: “ You know, this is all in Florida. And think about it, they have Caribbeans there, Cubans there, folks from other Third World nations. I mean, they really know how to steal elections.”

 

U.S. News and World Report

November 20, 2000*Volume 129*Number 20*Page 10

[Guest]

what do i expect from elections, Martin?

 

I think the answer would take us far from politics, but I'll attempt a coherent answer.

 

In my younger and much more naive days (lol, believe it, it's possible to be even more naive than i am now), I used to be a sweet little thing expecting honesty and integrity and kindness and straightforwardness from everyone, just because I was that way. Same with politicians. Then I became disillusioned with everything; same with politicians . Now I tend to believe that there's no one fit to be President of anything, much less the great ole U.S. of A.

 

So I suppose the short answer to your question would be "nothing". I don't expect anything from elections, except lying and deceit and then some, all culminating in a huge fake hip-hooray of people believing things will get better just because there's a new liar at the helm. Etkan ban.

[Guest]

OK.

[Guest]

Bush News http://www.georgewbush.com

AOL: <a href=http://www.georgewbush.com>GeorgeWBush.com</a>

 

Contents:

1 Controversy Rages Over Military Absentee Ballots

2 NY Post Editorial: A Desperate Man, A Desperate Act

3 Why Hand Counting Is Unfair and Inaccurate

4 Time.com: Daley, Christopher Try To Keep Hill Democrats

From Abandoning Gore

5 Associated Press: Christopher Said to Influence Tally

6 UPI Commentary: Beckel Digging Up Dirt to Influence Electors

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

1

Controversy Rages Over Democratic Effort to Suppress Military

Absentee Ballots

 

"...I happen to believe that, the military personal who sent

their ballots in, should be allowed and should be counted...

And I think we should look into it, because we realize that

when some of those ballots were sent off, many times the

aircraft or the other vehicle utilized to transport them had

to get on and they had to leave without the post marks. So I

think the military should have some latitude in allowing

those individuals to vote...."

- Sheila Jackson Lee, MSNBC's Hardball, 11/18/00

 

"...if he wins he is going to be Commander and Chief, I

think he [Gore] ought to weigh into this and say, 'I really

want this straightened out because it is only fair and right

to do that.'"

- David Gergen, MSNBC's Hardball, 11/18/00

 

"I mean, here we are -- a week ago, we were having the

groundbreaking for the World War II Memorial, we were all

praising veterans and servicemen. This week, President

Clinton is in Vietnam talking about reconciliation, and it

all involves veterans and all involves active duty service

personnel. And it seems to me that just in fairness...I

think the general statement ought to be, 'Let's make every

effort to count these ballots.'"

- Bob Dole, NBC's Meet the Press, 11/19/00

 

Tim Russert: "Will you today, as a representative of the

Gore campaign, ask every county to relook at those ballots

that came from armed services people and waive any so-

called irregularities or technicalities which would

disqualify them?"

 

Senator Joseph Lieberman: "I don't know that I have that

authority. I don't believe I do legally or in any other

way."

- NBC's Meet the Press, 11/19/00

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

2

NY Post Editorial

A Desperate Man, A Desperate Act

11/19/00

 

"How dare you, Al Gore?

 

"How dare you steal the right to vote from young Americans

serving their country overseas?

 

"From young soldiers and sailors sworn to defend unto death

the right of Americans to select their leaders - one vote per

person, one vote at a time?

 

"These are the real questions now facing the nation.

 

"Everything else is clutter.

 

"Friday afternoon, Gore strode purposefully to a bank of

microphones outside the vice-presidential mansion in

Washington and said:

 

"'The American people want to make certain that every vote

counts and that every vote is counted fairly and accurately.'"

 

"So far, so good.

 

"Then came word that Gore campaign operatives, armed with a

detailed how-to memo from Democratic lawyer Mark Herron, were

working furiously to trash military absentee ballots -

presumably because these votes were deemed more likely to be

for George W. Bush than for Al Gore."

 

Full Editorial: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/16182.htm

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

3

Why Hand Counting Is Unfair and Inaccurate

 

 

PALM BEACH COUNTY

~ Taping chads to ballots. At least two witnesses noted

ballots with tape over the chad of hole three, the

Governor Bush hole. Teresa LePore, the election

supervisor, brushed off these mistakes.

 

~ Bush ballots in the Gore pile. Both Friday night and

Saturday morning, Bush ballots were found in the Gore pile

to be counted as Gore votes. A Democratic observer found

these. The Democrat observer later apologized to the

Republican counterpart, telling him that the stack of

ballots was different the prior night and had been

sabotaged.

 

Example:

~ Jim Williams, a Republican observer, witnessed Democrat

observers picking up a handful of Gore ballots and

finding several Bush ballots. They tried to explain

why Bush and Gore ballots were mixed together but

couldn't.

~ Instead of pulling out the Bush ballots, Teresa LePore

stacked all the ballots and put them into a box without

any explanation to the counters or Palm Beach

Canvassing Board Chairman Judge Charles Burton.

 

~ Ballots as fans. The Chairman of the Palm Beach

Canvassing Board -- Judge Burton -- warned counters to not

use ballots to fan themselves.

 

~ Elderly counters overworked and burned out. Counters are

working from 7AM to 10PM each day -- sometimes even later.

Counters, many of whom are elderly, are exhausted, angry

and burned out. The room is poorly lit. On Thursday

night at 1AM, an elderly counter dropped 20 to 50 ballots

over the floor, creating a huge scene. Other observers

stepped on the ballots.

 

~ In two precincts, the result has been so flawed that a

second manual recount had to be conducted.

 

~ Counters are provided with no instruction and little

guidance. Because the Commission is canvassing at the

same time that people count, counters often roam the room

with their hands in the air, asking for guidance.

 

BROWARD COUNTY

 

~ Democrats who are observers one day are ballot inspectors

for the county the next. Steven Michaelson of the public

defender's office admitted in court Friday that Democrats

are serving as both observers and ballot inspectors.

 

~ Different standards at different tables. There are

untrained inspectors at one table telling new inspectors

at the next table how to conduct the count. Affidavits

from Florida residents serving as Republican observers

state that there is confusion, multiple touching and

passing of ballots between inspectors, moving precinct

ballots from one table to the next after the ballots were

already being counted, etc.

 

~ Conflicting statements. A Broward County attorney said a

manual count requires machine error, yet the board

reversed their earlier decision and began a manual count

despite no machine problems. Canvassing Board Chairman

Judge Lee stated before the initial vote that there was no

evidence of equipment problems, and that he was surprised

by the very small number of changes discovered (+4 for

Gore).

 

~ Falling chad on the floor, on the counting tables, on

chairs, etc. There is no reasonable assurance to voters

that the canvassing board has a system in place to ensure

the integrity and security of the ballots. The canvassing

board ignored a request by Republicans to stop the

counting until they do so. Election officials,

specifically Judge Lee, have simply expressed that the

chad should be brushed on the floor. After the first day

of counting, 78 chad were collected from the ground and

tables.

 

~ Considering altering the rules to include "dimpled"

ballots. Despite being a quarter of the way through the

manual recount (approx. 160 precincts), the Broward County

board is now considering including "dimpled" ballots as

votes. This has been the centerpiece of the Gore strategy

to gain additional votes.

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

4

Time.com

DALEY, CHRISTOPHER TRY TO KEEP HILL DEMOCRATS FROM

ABANDONING GORE

11/19/00

 

"Late last week, Gore campaign chairman Bill Daley and

former Secretary of State Warren Christopher quietly

informed the Democratic leaders of the House and Senate,

Dick Gephardt and Tom Daschle, that if Gore couldn't win on

the hand recounts, the campaign would fold its tent, sources

told TIME. They cautioned that 'the principals aren't there

yet' --Gore and Joe Lieberman weren't yet ready to go along -

'but they will be.' Daley and Christopher would find a way

to get the message to them, TIME reports in its current

issue....

 

"Gephardt feared that if Florida's secretary of state

Katherine Harris certified a Bush victory, House Democrats

would start abandoning Gore. 'People are saying, Enough is

enough,' a leading Democrat said Friday. 'It's time to be a

good loser.' To buy time, Gephardt organized a Friday-

afternoon conference call for Lieberman and House Democrats.

About 120 phoned in to hear Lieberman's pep talk."

 

Full Release: http://www.time.com/time/pr/scoop.html

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

5

Associated Press

GORE CAMPAIGN ATTEMPTS PRESSURE TACTICS

11/18/00

 

"Former Secretary of State Warren Christopher called the

Democratic lawyer for Palm Beach County's elections

supervisor to try to get the attorney to use his influence

to assure a manual recount would be conducted there, the

lawyer says.

 

"Christopher, who is leading the Gore campaign's recount

effort in Florida, made the phone call Thursday morning to

Bruce Rogow, who represents elections supervisor Theresa

LePore.

 

"'It was an effort to have me persuade my client to vote in

favor of starting the manual recount on Thursday. I told him

no. I told him we'd have to wait,'" Rogow said.

 

"Rogow said he didn't consider it appropriate for

Christopher or Dershowitz to try to 'persuade me to give

certain advice to my client.'"

 

Full Release: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20001118...pressure_2.html

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

6

UPI Commentary

SLEAZE, SLEAZE, SLEAZE

11/18/00

 

"Desperate to win the White House, Democrats have used

several strategies to set up a victory at the end of the

day....

 

"Elector is a position of public trust, so some level of

scrutiny is fair. What is not fair, and is, in fact

sinister, are revelations that Bob Beckel, Democrat solon,

occasional host of Crossfire, and campaign manager for

Walter Mondale's failed 1984 presidential bid, may be

engaged in some of the most vile skullduggery since

Watergate.

 

"It is an admittedly strong metaphor but frighteningly

appropriate. Since the morning after the election, there

have been rumors afoot that some in the Democrat party might

make serious attempts to switch votes in the Electoral

College.

 

"If Bush wins Florida, he becomes president by one more

electoral vote than the required 270. If three Republican

electors switch to Gore, the Tennessean gains a majority and

wins the White House.

 

"According to reports in the Wall Street Journal and

elsewhere, Beckel, who has close ties to Gore recount team

leader Warren Christopher, is engaged in an opposition

research project targeting Republican electors.

 

"Calling his efforts 'information gathering,' he says he is

working independently of the Gore campaign.

 

"Bill Daley, the vice president's campaign chairman, has

publicly shied away from any talk of lobbying electors. 'I

think there is a presumption that those members who are

voting, vote based upon the election," he has said. 'I

believe the vast majority of them are legally bound. And I

would assume if you're legally bound, you believe you're

morally bound.'

 

"Anyone in politics knows 'opposition research' is a polite

synonym for digging up dirt. The threat explicit in Beckel's

project is that the lives of electors are going to be

examined and given the same treatment Larry Flynt gave

former Republican Congressman Bob Livingston.

 

"Beckel told the Journal his procedure is to 'call on mostly

Democrats, but some Republicans too, and ask 'Who are these

electors, and what do you know about them?' That is what

blackmailers do too. Democrats need to call, today, for

Beckel to stop and use heavy hammers to insure that he does.

The presidential election must not be decided based on late

night phones calls to electors asking 'Hey buddy, who was

that woman you went with to Las Vegas last year?' Decency

and liberty demand it."

 

Full Commentary: http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=137052

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

 

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_________________________________________________________________

 

 

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[Guest]

Three heavily Democratic counties continue to handcount

ballots that were meant to be counted by machine.

 

As the process continues, it has become apparent why

machines are used to count these ballots.

 

There have been reports of Bush ballots in the Gore

pile, counters using ballots as fans, and chads on the

floor and on the counting tables....

 

Cick here to watch a member of the Miami-Dade County

Canvassing Board bend, scratch, poke and press a

ballot during the manual recount...

 

Sometimes, a picture is worth a thousand words....

 

 

Dial Up - 56k http://playlist.broadcast.com/makestream.asp?ID=892930

 

Broadband - 100k http://playlist.broadcast.com/makestream.asp?ID=892937

[Guest]

Martin,

 

You DO realize that a good share of Republicans would ship your ass right back to Armenia if given the chance??? No matter how green your wallet is, many of them still see your skin as olive.

[Guest]

Mike,

 

I don't even know what to make out of your posting. Sort of don't recognize you. But let me tell that haven't experienced what you describe, nor care about it.

[Guest]

Mike,

 

You amuse me, dude. This is not a Republican thread. Your are free to post a stream of Democratic or Socialistic, or Green party, or any other postings here. You also have the easy choice to skip over, any time you see MJ has posted something. For your knowledge, however, I have livid in Glendale. True, at that time I have not cared neither about Republicans nor about Democrats.

 

But nevertheless, I have always been very comfortable in my own skin, and have never cared what the circles you mention, or their antipodes may think or say, or do. The reason being that this is not about them, this is about me.

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
The reason being that this is not about them, this is about me.

---

That's the ideological difference I'm getting at.

Voting Republican (or even Libertarian, I guess) is to essentially say, "I want more money, even if it means associating myself with people that do not like Armenians."

Maybe this isn't such a big deal elsewhere, but living in Glendale, it has really begun to matter for me. The further I can distance myself from the white Republicans that hate Armenians, the better.

My party affiliation has now become a political statement! How redundant...

[Guest]

You are perfectly within your rights, and I may empathize you under the best scenario.

 

But whatever it is, it is your own problem.

 

And why should you care who am I in bed with, if that bed is not located in your personal bedroom?

[Guest]

Do you see any hypocrisy in an ethnic person voting Republican? I don't ask this question in an argumentative way, I'm interested in your opinion.

 

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Guest]

In order to respect equal time regulations, here's some crappy pro-Democratic Party propaganda

 

A history professor from Uppsala University in Sweden reported on an article she read that quoted a Zimbabwe politician as saying that children should study this event closely for it shows that election fraud is not only a Third World phenomena.

 

1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation’s secret police (CIA).

 

2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (electoral college) from the nation’s pre-democracy past.

 

3. Imagine that the self-declared winner’s ‘victory’ turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother!

 

4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner’s opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.

 

5. Imagine that that members of that nation’s most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner’s candidacy.

 

6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner’s brother.

 

7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner’s ‘lead’ was only 327 votes. Fewer than the vote counting machines’ margin of error.

 

8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district.

 

9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions.

 

10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation.

 

None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner’s will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere.”

[Guest]

The ideology of Republicans can be summed up in two words “survival of the fittest”. I can’t see a single point in their platform that will help the middle class. They don’t care about protecting the environment, hard working middle class, education or health reform. They will work poor working class to death if they could. Look at their platform: no support for increasing the minimum wage, even though it’s obvious that the cost of living has increased, no protection for environment, even though it’s a documented evidence that the ozone layer is getting thinner, no support for public schools, even though they are in desperate need for federal funds (rich people don’t send their kids to public schools, that’s why they don’t want to support it). Republican party has alienated itself from modern American reality, and became an exclusive club for rich WASPs. If you look at the map, you can see that the not so progressive states of Bible belt and Wild West elected Bush. Yet the industrialized states of East and West voted Democratic. Even though I am not fond of either candidate, because neither of them has the charisma and the intellect to lead a world superpower, yet electing Bush (daddy’s boy, who until the age of 40 was an alcoholic) will be a huge mistake. He graduated in the bottom 20% of Yale, wasn’t dedicated enough to hold a job in his 20’s and 30’s (the most productive years in many peoples lives). The state that he governed has the highest execution rate. The list will go on and on if I continue. Yet I choose to stop, since this guy and the party it represents is the backward element of current American reality.

[Guest]

Mike,

 

I'll make a little bit of a pause here, to allow you to reread your latest postings and reevaluate the state of your mind

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Guest]

???

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by alpha:
Republican party has alienated itself from modern American reality, and became an exclusive club for rich WASPs.

---

Exactly. In theory, the Republican party should represent less government and more personal freedom, but in reality, it is exactly as you've described.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pilafhead:
???

---

OK, Mike. Time-out. In theory of complex systems that state of mind can be described as Inverse Feedback System with Delayed Arguments and Random Control.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Guest]

OK Martin, drop the hookah and no one will get hurt...

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Guest]

OK. I have always felt that USA is an incredible country. Since almost 50% of the population has supported or merely belongs to the upper class, this reinforces the perception of the land of opportunity for America. Some other useful statistics may also indicate that more than 65% of men have voted Republican, more than 54% of married women have voted Republican. The most forward looking and thinking segments of the population, such as the blacks and Latinos, have voted Democrat with overwhelming margins...

 

The employers of minimum wage earners are the small businesses. It is a part of the Republican agenda to increase the minimum wage provided tax relief for small businesses, which are the economic engine of the country.

 

Republicans have lost California merely in the result of the reversal of the Affirmative Action Program, due to the increasing margins of Latino population. Prior to that reversal, California has always been Republican. I guess it would've not constituted a backward element of the Union in the Reagan and Bush (senior) era.

 

Regarding the ozone layer, as we have previously discussed with Mike, this is not a political issue, and the scientists have to come to consensus first. Before it is done, it remains an unfounded allegation.

 

Regarding wanting more money, that is not what Republicans are about. They are about not appreciating somebody stealing somebody else' money, and sticking his hand into others pocket.

 

It is also about personal responsibility, and not wasting one's youth on punk endeavors, but studying hard, working hard, being smart, positive, ambitious, aggressive, etc.

 

With all this said and done, I have no intention to be a Republican ideologist in this forum, and will not comment any further, though will continue to post whatever materials I may please. Feel free to add a “skip” button to your mice.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
The most forward looking and thinking segments of the population, such as the blacks and Latinos, have voted Democrat with overwhelming margins...

---

Nice statement. I didn't have you pegged as ignorant--condescending yes, but not ignorant.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Regarding wanting more money, that is not what Republicans are about. They are about not appreciating somebody stealing somebody else' money, and sticking his hand into others pocket.

---

They are about greed.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pilafhead:
They are about greed.

---

OK.

[Guest]

I win?....I win!! David beat Goliath!

[Guest]

I care about it. I'm reacting to the stream of pro-Republican posts you've begun to put here. Any ethnic person that is a Republican needs to really think about who they're in bed with. The Republican party represents rich white people; if you're comfortable with that, then fine--but be aware of the circles that run the party.

 

Come to Glendale, go to an "Old Timers" function. Basically, a euphemism for "those of us who were here before the Armenians." Don't believe me? Look at their membership and their criteria. You have to have lived in Glendale a certain number of years--strategically selected to exclude Armenians. These are the Republicans I am talking about.

 

I've come to the point where I rather be in a party with people that want to spend one of dollars, rather than those that don't like my ancestors.

[Guest]

BUSH!!!!!!

Gore is an actor, lyer & I think that he's gay

The reason that i don't want Gore, is that the Clinton administration vetoed our Genocide resolution again , about 3 months ago, so why would I choose Gore for the next president?????

If Gore becomes the next president, Jew will have total control of this country (like they don't now, lol), & who the hell they are to be in charge of US. Let the founders of this country be in charge of it.

I don't care if Gore has different hair color every time he appear's on TV.

[Guest]

Ellen, how old are you?...just wondering, I like to know basic information about our forum members