Anything "good" about Turks...

[wh00t]

Oh! I am so sorry.. it is the Armenians' fault that the Turks aren't able to grasp reality! How silly of me, I should have known that. On top of charges that we committed genocide against the Turks and that we are responsible for the anti-Turkey mindset in the West, you can throw this one upon us as well.

quote

There is no value in recognition of the Armenian Genocide by all parliaments in the world if you have a Turkey full of paranoid Armenophobes

I would rather have worldwide recognition of the Armenian Genocide with a Turkey full of Armenophobes than simply a Turkey (and its diaspora) full of Armenophobes WITHOUT worldwide recognition (the status quo). In essence, most Turks will not change their opinion about the subject (ie. there was no Genocide, it was one big organized Armenian lie), regardless of what legislation is passed by foreign assemblies. So, by saying that there's no value in worldwide recognition because Turks bear hatred against the Armenians, then what you are really saying is that there is no value if world parliaments recognize the Genocide at all. I do not concur.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: wh00t ]

[MJ]

I don’t feel that’s what she was saying, wh00t. And I think it was pretty clear what she was saying.

 

I think this is an example of what I have asserted many times in the past – many Armenians prefer the problem to the solution. They would rather have Turks not recognize the Genocide, and moreover, even perhaps have them commit another one, so that to “prove to the world that they are barbarians,” instead of being interest in their direct recognition of it and being remorseful, thus, somehow mitigating the crime.

[ThornyRose]

There are other alternatives, not too far-fetched, which you seem to shove aside because it is too much work.



I disagree. I believe that, at worst, a certain portion of the population can accept Armenians.



I disagree.
Instigate the world to put pressure on Turkey to give in like they did with South Africa with apartheid and you will make a mess and cause mass hysteria. South Africa, unlike Turkey, was prepared, however.
I believe that there is no tangible result to be attained if you isolate Turkey. Although I believe that the issue is and can be regarded as one for the whole world to follow, I believe that, at the end of the day, the problem lies with the two peoples. In personal relations, I prefer to solve my problems with the people I am bothered by rather than giving in to his/her stubborn-ness at one point or another and calling on everyone to force a solution on that person - with rare exceptions, of course - even if I know I am right.
What I have on my mind: acceptance of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish people - the state comes next. And I do not believe it is hopeless. Why do I care? Who knows...
Of course, those are your natural preferences, and I can't say much. Still... You were my superior in what way, did you say?

[wh00t]

If this is what you think about my stance on the issue, MJ, then I think you misread me. Under no circumstances do I ever prefer revisionism to coming to terms with past atrocities. This is my stance on the Armenian Genocide, and other examples as well, such as the Japanese denial of the rape of Nanking.

However, to acheive these desired ends (ie. acknowledgment of the Genocide), I refuse to be a bystander and perpetuate the status quo. If convincing the world that there was a Genocide (by the way, MJ, do you even believe there was a Genocide?) means exposing the past barbarisms of the Turks and their ancestors, then that's what I will do. If the Turks do not want this image that is projected upon them in the West, they should take the initiative to incite change, rather than perpetuate the image by, for example, threatening other nations and unions with repercussions and violence when they don't get their way.

[wh00t]

You don't seem to realize that we're running out of options, Duke! Why aren't you leading some big Armenian-Turkish friendship program with these revolutionary "alternatives" that nobody else has thought of?



You disagree? You think that Turks who have spent their entire lives believing and holding true to their hearts that it is one big "Armenian lie" can all of a sudden change their minds if foreign and local parliaments say so? Are Turks that easy to manipulate? I'll tell you, if the world told me today, right now, that there was no Armenian Genocide, I wouldn't change my opinion. Same goes for the other end of the spectrum with the Turks.



We will see. At this point, unless there is some major, sudden, drastic change, it seems as though any solution acceptable to the Armenians will come at the cost of the isolation of Turkey. And I won't lose any sleep over it.

[MJ]

Dear wh00t,

 

I would be very happy to have misread you.

 

It’s good that you want to convince the world that there has been a Genocide, and don’t want to be a bystander. However there are better ways to accomplish that task in my view. If you can on your way also put some effort to raise the awareness of the Turks from an 11% of their population to a 55%, you would accomplish much more significant results. Besides, the way you try to convince the world is not necessarily good for Armenians, because while the world “gets convinced in Turks' being barbarians,” it also gets convinced that “Armenians are not any better.”

 

Additionally, from your last posting I notice again that you are interested more in discharging your hatred rather than mitigating your tactics for the sake of the result. It seems to me that you deliberately “don’t understand” what your opponents are saying.

 

As far as my recognition of the Genocide is concerned, I would advise that prior to discharging such cheap shots, you do a little bit of a homework, so that it doesn’t backfire on you.

 

Given that you refuse to accept a very common sense recommendations from people who are sympathetic to your cause, I get an impression again that you get kick out of “exposing Turks’ barbarism.”

 

If you are really interested in their recognition, try to help those who are swing “recognizers” to come along, and try to win them over.

[wh00t]

I am not about to set upon changing the minds of people with fixed beliefs about the subject at hand. If you are interested in raising Turkish awareness, more power to you, and I hope you are successful. If you feel this will help the Armenian cause, you should do it yourself, rather than trying to change my course of actions.

quote

Besides, the way you try to convince the world is not necessarily good for Armenians, because while the world “gets convinced in Turks' being barbarians,” it also gets convinced that “Armenians are not any better.”

I disagree. The Israelis have been playing this card for decades with admirable results.

quote

If you are really interested in their recognition, try to help those who are swing “recognizers” to come along, and try to win them over.

Refer to my response to your first suggestion. I would like to say "inzi khelk mi dar," but it's a bit harsher than I would like it to be .

[MJ]

I am not about to set upon changing the minds of people with fixed beliefs about the subject at hand.

 

How do you know that? Have you tried it?

 

If you are interested in raising Turkish awareness, more power to you, and I hope you are successful. If you feel this will help the Armenian cause, you should do it yourself, rather than trying to change my course of actions.

 

It wouldn’t even occur to me to change your course of actions in a matter which is personal. However, we are discussing an issue of national significance, and “your actions” have implications “in my life.”

 

MJ- Besides, the way you try to convince the world is not necessarily good for Armenians, because while the world “gets convinced in Turks' being barbarians,” it also gets convinced that “Armenians are not any better.”

wh00t -I disagree. The Israelis have been playing this card for decades with admirable results.

 

I also disagree with your premise. The world has a very limited capacity for that tactics. And I don’t think that the reality of Israel demosntartes a lot of admirable results.

 

Refer to my response to your first suggestion. I would like to say "inzi khelk mi dar," but it's a bit harsher than I would like it to be .

 

To the contrary to you, I would like to “khelk vertsnel amen mekits vor karogh e indz khelk tal.”

[wh00t]

Have I tried to change the minds of people with fixed mindsets against Armenian Genocide recognition? No. For me, it is a tedious and ultimately futile journey to embark upon, but that's just my view. You seem to have a different take on it, and all I can do is praise you for it. I don't want you to call me a spreader of misinformation, but from what I have been reading, it *SEEMS* that you share Thorny Rose's view that we need to cooperate with Turkey when it comes to the Armenian Genocide. Based on these views, raising awareness among the Turks, as you suggest it, is necessary.

However, as you can tell, I can't relate with the Turkish cooperation bit. I do not entirely disagree with Turko-Armenian dialogue, but I feel we have tried that already, and it has failed, and we cannot get much good out of it. The current reconciliation commission is a mistake; on this point, I'm with the ARF. Therefore, simply to ignore is the next best policy. With such a policy, I am more motivated to spread awareness among the rest of the world, who are more impressionable because they have been exposed to no information about the Genocide in the past, rather the Turks, who, through no fault of their own have been fed lies for their entire lives. I will not try to do anything for them, it's not worth my time and effort.

[MJ]

Have I tried to change the minds of people with fixed mindsets against Armenian Genocide recognition? No.

 

Then how do you know that their mind is set?

 

…it *SEEMS* that you share Thorny Rose's view that we need to cooperate with Turkey when it comes to the Armenian Genocide. Based on these views, raising awareness among the Turks, as you suggest it, is necessary.

 

I don’t know what you are trying to convey by your choice of word “cooperate” - you make it sound like something sinister. But I definitely thing that the issue of the Armenian Genocide may be resolved only jointly with the Turks, and I wouldn’t give a damn about the entire worlds’ recognition of the Genocide. Others are not going to resolve our problems. In 300 years, since Israel Ori, we could’ve afforded (I am tempted to think) to learn some elementary lessons from our history. Our stubborn inability of learning lessons from our own history is pregnant with more loses – ever increasingly costly.

 

Additionally, I do admire Thorny’s persona and intellect, and I wish all Turks were like her.

 

However, as you can tell, I can't relate with the Turkish cooperation bit. I do not entirely disagree with Turko-Armenian dialogue, but I feel we have tried that already, and it has failed, and we cannot get much good out of it.

 

When have we tried and failed?

 

The current reconciliation commission is a mistake; on this point, I'm with the ARF. Therefore, simply to ignore is the next best policy. With such a policy, I am more motivated to spread awareness among the rest of the world, who are more impressionable because they have been exposed to no information about the Genocide in the past, rather the Turks, who, through no fault of their own have been fed lies for their entire lives. I will not try to do anything for them, it's not worth my time and effort.

 

You obviously are entitled to your opinion and to your affiliations. However, perhaps against your will, but your position is going to make things only harder. And your position asserts again in my eyes that you are not trying to achieve results, but rather are trying to get some emotional satisfaction out of “cornering” Turkey and the Turks, instead of trying to do anything available to pull them over – at least a portion of their population. And if I was a neutral person, i.e. a person of a third nationality, I would’ve not liked to associate myself with you finding a deficit of desire in my heart to support you, even if I felt sympathy towards the fallen.

[wh00t]

Then how do you know that their mind is set?

 

We're not talking about buying a pair of shoes that one can think twice about in a second. This is a serious, sensitive subject for both parties. To any Turks, Azeri, etc. who ardently proclaims that there was no Genocide, I will not attempt to pick their brain to prove that they feel that way, nor is it worth it for me to spend my time and effort to try and change their minds.

 

I definitely thing that the issue of the Armenian Genocide may be resolved only jointly with the Turks, and I wouldn’t give a damn about the entire worlds’ recognition of the Genocide. Others are not going to resolve our problems.

 

On the contrary, in my opinion recognition is the one and probably only key to solving this dispute in a way that does not conflict with the interests of the Armenian people. We are a small people, our influence is limited. (Granted, we have a great lobby in the USA.) Turkey laughs at our claims, and I don't blame them. Who are the Armenians, anyway? In their eyes, an insignificant people trying to destroy their national honor by accusing them of something as horrific as Genocide. We don't have a major voice. The world's superpowers do. We need them to exert pressure upon Turkey, because we can't. If the EU upholds the Armenian Genocide prerequisite, for whatever political reason, Turkey will not budge and will just sit even further isolated than it is at present. A few more "the world is out to get us" editorials with appear in Milliyet.

 

Have the Armenians won anything by the Turkey not being able to join the EU? No. Has Turkey lost anything by it? Yes. It's just a matter of how deep in isolation it goes and how much losses must they cut before they start to look at things from a different perspective. This may not be the universal Armenian standpoint, but I know that I am not alone with these opinions.

[MJ]

To any Turks, Azeri, etc. who ardently proclaims that there was no Genocide, I will not attempt to pick their brain to prove that they feel that way, nor is it worth it for me to spend my time and effort to try and change their minds.

 

How about those Turks who accept that the Genocide has taken place, and feel sorry for it? Your assertion about your time tells me again and again that you are in this for emotional satisfaction of it and not for the results, because otherwise you would’ve been open to anything available which advances the recognition of the genocide by Turkey.

 

On the contrary, in my opinion recognition is the one and probably only key to solving this dispute in a way that does not conflict with the interests of the Armenian people.

 

Recognition by Turkey or the rest of the world?

 

We are a small people, our influence is limited. (Granted, we have a great lobby in the USA.)

 

Then how do you expect and for the sake of what the US to recognize more importantly, to condemn the Genocide?

 

Turkey laughs at our claims, and I don't blame them.

 

The way the issue is frequently formulated by some segments of the Armenian side, not only Turkey would lough at it, but even the steamed hens (a translated Armenian gotesque-expression) would do it.

 

Who are the Armenians, anyway? In their eyes, an insignificant people trying to destroy their national honor by accusing them of something as horrific as Genocide. We don't have a major voice. The world's superpowers do. We need them to exert pressure upon Turkey, because we can't.

 

Don’t you think that you contradict yourself?

 

If the EU upholds the Armenian Genocide prerequisite, for whatever political reason, Turkey will not budge and will just sit even further isolated than it is at present.

 

Somehow I don’t see Turkey being isolated, but the opposite – every major power from Russia to the US rushes to do business with Turkey. And as much as you may be surprised, Turkey’s acceptance in the EU is in the best interest of Armenia. The acceptance would obligate Turkey to “play by the rules,” it would provide Armenia with increased national security guarantees, would probably force Turkey to lift Armenia’s blockade, and would open a new venue for the recognition of the Genocide, itself.

 

Have the Armenians won anything by the Turkey not being able to join the EU?

 

No. Zip. It has in fact hardened Turkey’s position. If it was in my power, I would’ve granted Turkey acceptance into EU effective tomorrow morning.

 

Has Turkey lost anything by it?

 

Not much. I have already mentioned above that there is no isolation of Turkey – even by its traditional adversaries.

 

It's just a matter of how deep in isolation it goes and how much losses must they cut before they start to look at things from a different perspective. This may not be the universal Armenian standpoint, but I know that I am not alone with these opinions.

 

You are not alone, at all. In fact, you represent the majority, but as Soren Kierkegaard claims, “Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion-and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion . . . while Truth again reverts to a new minority.”

[wh00t]

How about those Turks who accept that the Genocide has taken place, and feel sorry for it?

 

I don't have anything to change their minds about.

 

Recognition by Turkey or the rest of the world?

 

Recognition by the rest of the world, and then Turkey. In that order. Understandably, Turkey will never acknowledge the Genocide without a reason to do so.

 

Then how do you expect and for the sake of what the US to recognize more importantly, to condemn the Genocide?

 

Why is this such a shock? H. Res. 596 was easily going to pass last year. We have a good lobby in the USA, but that alone doesn't make the Armenians extremely powerful.

 

Don’t you think that you contradict yourself?

 

Nope. We alone don't have a powerful voice. We need outside help.

 

Somehow I don’t see Turkey being isolated, but the opposite – every major power from Russia to the US rushes to do business with Turkey.

 

This is true. But it doesn't mean Turkey doesn't desperately want to join the EU - she does.

 

And as much as you may be surprised, Turkey’s acceptance in the EU is in the best interest of Armenia. The acceptance would obligate Turkey to “play by the rules," it would provide Armenia with increased national security guarantees, would probably force Turkey to lift Armenia’s blockade, and would open a new venue for the recognition of the Genocide, itself.

 

Turkey has never played by the rules, so it's not surprising to see many Armenians skeptical about any such change as a result of anything. But hey, you could be right. The situation between the nations is bound to ameliorate if Turkey is accepted.. but that isn't saying much - the situation can't get much worse at this point.

 

It has in fact hardened Turkey’s position.

 

With a hardened position, Turkey further isolates itself from Western standards of human rights, and again they lose.. while Armenians gain nothing and lose nothing.

 

You are not alone, at all. In fact, you represent the majority, but as Soren Kierkegaard claims, “Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion-and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion . . . while Truth again reverts to a new minority.”

 

Ouff!

[MJ]

MJ-How about those Turks who accept that the Genocide has taken place, and feel sorry for it?

wh00t - I don't have anything to change their minds about.

 

Then would you be willing to engaged with them in a normal human manner, now? Or would you be still willing to insult and alienate them?

 

 

MJ-Recognition by Turkey or the rest of the world?

wh00t-Recognition by the rest of the world, and then Turkey. In that order. Understandably, Turkey will never acknowledge the Genocide without a reason to do so.

 

Do you mind if Turkey recognizes before the US does? Or if the US and Canada recognize it, do you feel it is a reason for Turkey to recognize it? If yes, why?

 

MJ-Then how do you expect and for the sake of what the US to recognize more importantly, to condemn the Genocide?

Wh00t- Why is this such a shock? H. Res. 596 was easily going to pass last year. We have a good lobby in the USA, but that alone doesn't make the Armenians extremely powerful.

 

But it didn’t pass, right? Had you read the text of the H. Res. 596? If not, you can find it in our Forum.

 

MJ-Don’t you think that you contradict yourself?

wh00t-Nope. We alone don't have a powerful voice. We need outside help.

 

As I mentioned, we have tried to get outside help for 300 years. 300 years ago the situation was not good. 100 years ago we lost more than 2 million people while the outsiders watched it. Does it teach us something, you think? But if we are not a powerful voice, as you assert, why would any powerful party rush to our “rescue?”

 

MJ-Somehow I don’t see Turkey being isolated, but the opposite – every major power from Russia to the US rushes to do business with Turkey.

wh00t-This is true. But it doesn't mean Turkey doesn't desperately want to join the EU - she does.

 

I don’t think it is desperate. It has other alternatives – maybe not as sexy looking, but nevertheless, other alternatives are available to Turkey.

 

MJ-And as much as you may be surprised, Turkey’s acceptance in the EU is in the best interest of Armenia. The acceptance would obligate Turkey to “play by the rules," it would provide Armenia with increased national security guarantees, would probably force Turkey to lift Armenia’s blockade, and would open a new venue for the recognition of the Genocide, itself.

wh00t-Turkey has never played by the rules, so it's not surprising to see many Armenians skeptical about any such change as a result of anything. But hey, you could be right. The situation between the nations is bound to ameliorate if Turkey is accepted.. but that isn't saying much - the situation can't get much worse at this point.

 

In fact it has. Only we, from the position of not understanding the rules of the game, may make such assertions. Turkey has known perfectly the rules of the game throughout its existence, it has played by the rules, and that’s why it has always emerged victorious.

 

MJ-It has in fact hardened Turkey’s position.

wh00t-With a hardened position, Turkey further isolates itself from Western standards of human rights, and again they lose.. while Armenians gain nothing and lose nothing.

 

How much do you think they care about the Western standards of Human Rights? Armenia has everything to gain and loose from Turkey’s hardening. I hope that you are never in position to make strategic decisions which such assessment.

 

MJ-You are not alone, at all. In fact, you represent the majority, but as Soren Kierkegaard claims, “Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion-and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion . . . while Truth again reverts to a new minority.”

wh00t- Ouff!

 

Relax and smile.

[wh00t]

Then would you be willing to engaged with them in a normal human manner, now? Or would you be still willing to insult and alienate them?

 

Previous posts by me in this thread explicitly praise Taner Akcam and others like him.

 

Do you mind if Turkey recognizes before the US does?

 

No.

 

Or if the US and Canada recognize it, do you feel it is a reason for Turkey to recognize it? If yes, why?

 

US and Canadian recognition would promote sympathy towards the Armenians, and build up the pressure on Turkey to recognize the Genocide. It will open doors for Armenian claims for compensation, monetary and otherwise. It may not be a direct reason for Turkey to recognize it, but it could be a consequence of it.

 

But it didn’t pass, right? Had you read the text of the H. Res. 596? If not, you can find it in our Forum.

 

It wasn't given an oppurtunity to pass. I have read H. Res. 596, both pre- and post- amendend versions.

 

But if we are not a powerful voice, as you assert, why would any powerful party rush to our “rescue?”

 

We have a good lobby. Congressmen have to please the Armenians in their districts. We discussed this already.

 

I don’t think it is desperate. It has other alternatives – maybe not as sexy looking, but nevertheless, other alternatives are available to Turkey.

 

It is desperate. Turkey hopes the EU will bring much-needed foreign investment and employment in the country.

 

In fact it has. Only we, from the position of not understanding the rules of the game, may make such assertions. Turkey has known perfectly the rules of the game throughout its existence, it has played by the rules, and that’s why it has always emerged victorious.

 

If commiting cultural genocide against the Kurds, leading a militarist and oppressionist government, destroying ancient monuments, committing genocide against the Armenians and Greeks, threatening other nations with violence and severe repercussions when it doesn't get its way, ignoring prisoners who are dying on hunger strike by the day, ignoring farmers who are going broke in the east, and on and on and on... if you consider that playing by the rules, then what can I tell you.

 

How much do you think they care about the Western standards of Human Rights?

 

They better start caring if they want into the EU.

 

I hope that you are never in position to make strategic decisions which such assessment.

 

A nice touch.

 

Relax and smile.

 

Likewise yourself.

 

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: wh00t ]

[MJ]

images/smiles/converted/smile.gif

[wh00t]

Arrogance? Please explain. Why should Armenians give importance to what revisionist Turks think about our genocide? (Did that come out right? I'm directly translating from the Armenian 'garevorutyun gudankor'). When all else has failed, it is time to shut the Turks out and the rest will flow naturally towards Armenian interests. It is the best policy Armenians could hope for at this point.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: wh00t ]

[Paul bunyan]

"does your mummy wipe your arse"

 

Thorny Rose, does your mummy spank

yours, you certainly could use a spankling!

[ThornyRose]

How do you want me to explain? It is fairly clear.
Just remember: for every action, there is a reaction... And that reaction may not always be beneficial for you. It is inherent in every human being to shut oneself off from what revolts them. So it is with Turks who are insulted with what is dear to them and have no clue or understanding of what causes such encounters with foreigners and "minorities in exile" - thus only giving those with certain agenda to hammer in the "the whole world is against us" BS.
Most Turks are misinformed about the Armenian Genocide and Armenians in general. It is you guys who have to quit the "Turks this, Turks that" BS in order to allow them to touch reality, in a way. It is not my job. If anything, I look awkward when there are Armenians spewing hate hate hate and I am trying to say that they are "beautiful nice"... So far, of course, it has been this way on the internet. I don't know what "real life" would be like as far as such confrontations are concerned. I also doubt that you would have the valour to talk about brutal savages if not about "Greek yoghurt" to a Turk's face. If you were able to, that would only prove your own indecency (referring to "brutal savages") - not the Turk's.
Scape-goating is resorting to the easier. Are you enough of a superior of mine to surprise me by going beyond what I say by first challenging the more difficult burden?
There is no value in recognition of the Armenian Genocide by all parliaments in the world if you have a Turkey full of paranoid Armenophobes - and, believe me, just what a few Turks can observe from the internet can be enough to inflict the harm, just like we had all the "earthquakes are American conspiracy" all over the country...
True, "we" may not be able to "win" all Turks and have them agree with us - but that is a "best" that can be "worked for"...
Am I clear enough?