Arpa Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip:Arpa, LMAO! I guess I have turned into the "boy who cried wolf". Actually this time I was serious in the fact that I really thought "ughd" (sorry whichever way it's spelled) -gnal was *******Speechless at the camel type! Way too cool smilies/thumbup.gifYes Sip, you can "laugh your eshek off", but you have earned the dubious distinction of being the dirty ratty, bratty and irreverent geek of this medium. Except that I love it! Keep it up and you will be the "khpan esh" here too. i.e. the whipping donkey. You will be in business forever as Armenians always beat up the donkey's saddle lest the donkey kick back when hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Talking of all this "esh" stuff, actually, at the moment I do feel quite a bit like THIS. Actually, I believe an update to my profile is in order!!! But it's all good. Nothing that a little sleep won't cure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Vava, in addition: /x/ (velar) is the international phonetic symbol for /kh/ and the upside down /R/ or /x/ (uvular) with the ends curled is the /gh/. To avoid confusion I just use /kh/ and /gh/. See here: http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/pulmonic.html There's more on that site as well if you're interested, including vowels. Arpa, I didn't think you didn't know. I just thought it was a nice addition. Didn't know about you using -um for -utiun. Will keep it in mind for next time Sipan, lol! You're such a sadist! [ February 26, 2003, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: nairi ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 OK, I'll start. quote:Originally posted by Stormy:Let's do some exercise here. If you were to be told that you would be asked to share your experiences in some form or via some medium, to share with other Armenians, family members, etc., how would that change your attitude toward this "pilgrimage"? Or would it just add something? To the way you make your observations, to what you record (on paper, on camera, etc.)......... What would that be?In my case, thinking of sharing my experiences with others and keeping something for posterity meant keeping a log of sorts. Times of buses, how long it takes to get where, etc.I also took lots of photos, not just for sport with me in them. Of course the 'lots' is by my standards, may or may not have been impressive for others. Two of my main focuses were khatchkars and inscriptions, although I think I took lesser numbers of records of the latter. I regret that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:Stormy, if you're not a "dealer" then why do you offer to "deal" us advice? Ah nevermind. I'm not interested anyway.Nairi, Sorry for the misunderstanding if any. I was merely trying to say that by now you should know what you would want out of such a venture. I don't want to catch anyone's fish. However, I can be of help in catching that fish. Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy:I was merely trying to say that by now you should know what you would want out of such a venture. By now? I've never been on such a venture before! How the h... can I know what I can get out of it? And that's my point. The way you put it seemed to me like you have things to say about such ventures that most people wouldn't (or shouldn't?) know about, but unfortunately you're not being specific, and so far you haven't given any info that we didn't already know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 You don't have to be a seasoned traveller to know what you would like to see in Rome, Venice, Florence, Naples, etc., if you get the chance to go to Italy. I shouldn't be telling ("offering") you about the spectacular sites/sights, great food, great wine, nice people, etc. You must have made the investments, especially research, beforehand, to have the will and desire. I can only give you tidbits about things your eye might miss and which people don't know about and things like that, where to eat, where to stay, etc., that most guidebooks will not offer. In the case of Turkey, you know what A-words are ommitted from guidebooks.OK, sites especially in Turkey may not be well-known for you to have as clear an idea about. However, I can't write everything. Too broad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by vava:Ok! That does it!I'm getting terribly confused with all the different transliterations going on... We have "oukhtagnatsum", and we have "ukhtagnatsutiun", and now Sip writes: "ooxdagnatsutiun"! Which one is it?? And furthermore - is there a set of rules for Armenian/English Transliteration??I think Arpa was advocating some sort of standard a while back Vava jan, /kh/ is for khosel, to speak/gh/ is for seghan, table. Some people on the forum use /x/ randomly for either of these sounds, but it was my impression that Sipan was using it as a /kh/ this time. Or perhaps he thought that ught and ukht are spelled the same in Armenian because they sound so alike (correct me if I'm wrong dude). Then there's /oo/, /u/ and /ou/ which all basically have the same sound, namely the French /ou/ in jour, or the English /oo/ in scoop. Some people choose /u/ as in Harut, probably because it's the international phonemic symbol for that sound. I tend to switch In my East Armenian transliteration it would be ukhtagnatsutiun, ookhtagnatsootioon, oukhtagnatsoutioun, and even oekhtagnatsoetioen, the Dutch version Stormy, if you're not a "dealer" then why do you offer to "deal" us advice? Ah nevermind. I'm not interested anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:I think Arpa was advocating some sort of standard a while back Vava jan, /kh/ is for khosel, to speak/gh/ is for seghan, table. Some people on the forum use /x/ randomly for either of these sounds, ... Thanks for the clarification Nairi! But that other stuff with the symbols and all... well count me out - I already have too much information to keep track of in my head - i can do without the international phonetic symbols! (not that it isn't fascinating!) BTW I am ALL for ARPA and his standards! quote:Originally posted by Arpa:There may be 8 million of us but we have 10 million opinions about transliteration. But surely we can agree on how we write to one another!?! Of course, that would probably mean the invention of an Armenian keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy:Let's do some exercise here. If you were to be told that you would be asked to share your experiences in some form or via some medium, to share with other Armenians, family members, etc., how would that change your attitude toward this "pilgrimage"? Or would it just add something? To the way you make your observations, to what you record (on paper, on camera, etc.)......... What would that be?The answer is quite easy for me! It would be me and my camera (maybe I'd drag along a miniDV cam for some video too) I usually get too distracted on trips to write anything coherent, so any note taking would not be to the benefit of the people I would 'share' with. Interesting question though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by vava:Thanks for the clarification Nairi! But that other stuff with the symbols and all... well count me out - I already have too much information to keep track of in my head - i can do without the international phonetic symbols! (not that it isn't fascinating!)Sorry, I guess that was a bit of shatakhosutiun/shatakhosq from my side... quote:But surely we can agree on how we write to one another!?! Of course, that would probably mean the invention of an Armenian keyboard.Armenians haven't even agreed on a standard spelling with the Armenian alphabet! I don't really have a problem with non-standardization myself. In fact I think it makes languages and their many dialects and varieties more interesting. Standardization kills the multi-faceted side of languages. That's my opinion at least. But I guess we should discuss this in a language thread. As for Armenian keyboards, I think, actually I'm quite sure since my parents still have one, there already is such a thing. Fair enough, we have the typewriter version, but still Stormy, I got your point. I'll let you know if I'm ever interested. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 27, 2003 Report Share Posted February 27, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ:I think the usage of the word “pilgrimage” in the discussed context depends on who are we trying to appeal to – older people identifying themselves with the Church (who more likely would have the money for the journey) or to the younger generation who has some positive agenda of bringing attention to the decaying monuments and to achieve some spiritual goals. I am pretty sure about the Echmiadzin site. It is known (sorry don’t remember the source) that Echmiadzin has been built on the site of a pagan temple, which has been destroyed so that to use the stones in the construction of the cathedral.http://kamurj.com/Gallery/Echmiatsin/Echmiyadzin/MVC-374F.JPG http://kamurj.com/Gallery/Echmiatsin/Echmiyadzin/MVC-376F.JPG http://kamurj.com/Gallery/Echmiatsin/Echmiyadzin/MVC-377F.JPG MJ is correct - Echmiadzin has been built on the site of a pagan templeIt was discovered in 1970`s during a construction to level the podium in the church – podium is on top of this Krakaran. In the pic #1 you see the krakaran - the large stone is ( MataraQar ) the sacrifice stone – Grigor Lusavorich has used this tone to cover the Krakaran and made his first Sacrificed on it – than a church has been build in the same place and by using the stones of the old temple – In pic #2 you can see 3 carved crosses - on the left - crosses are carved on the bass of the old temple – church staff told me that it’s the first Cross Stone in Armenia ( xachqar) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 27, 2003 Report Share Posted February 27, 2003 Wow! Mosjan Faboulous photos! This is a great example of why we (in the Diaspora) should encourage 'pilgrimages' to see the sites of historic and cultural importance. Wheneve I see photographs such as these, my curiosity is peaked. I personally have never been to Armenia, but when I feel this kind of emotional call - by merely viewing a photograph - it leads me to conclude that there may be such a thing as 'genetic memory'. And I believe that the cornerstones that will enable us to build strong Armenian culture adapted to the realities of Diaspora, lie in closer ties (emotional/economic/cultural) with the ROA. Encouraging these visits, especially for the youth, can play a large part in achieving this objective in the long-term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffi the Illuminator Posted February 28, 2003 Report Share Posted February 28, 2003 Although I like to keep an open mind, I would never walk on the soil of Turkey. If I did, due to my stubborness and anger I'd probably get arrested there anyway, given my harsh criticism of the Turkish government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2003 It shouldn't be difficult to keep out of trouble if Armenians can still live in Turkey. This is what I don't get about people declaring, "never," "what a horrid thought!" etc. As if the Armenians that still live in Istanbul and Talas and such are weird in the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffi the Illuminator Posted February 28, 2003 Report Share Posted February 28, 2003 "It shouldn't be difficult to keep out of trouble if Armenians can still live in Turkey. This is what I don't get about people declaring, "never," "what a horrid thought!" etc. As if the Armenians that still live in Istanbul and Talas and such are weird in the head." Yes but this of course is due to the fact that if one keeps quiet about certain things (ie. human rights, Genocide recognition) then, relatively speaking everything is going to be just fine. Also, most of the Armenians that are living in these areas have been living there for quite some time. Some know relatively little about the Genocide and most of the ones that do know about it, only hear it from the "Turkish version of events". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 28, 2003 Report Share Posted February 28, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Raffi the Illuminator:"It shouldn't be difficult to keep out of trouble if Armenians can still live in Turkey. This is what I don't get about people declaring, "never," "what a horrid thought" etc. Also, most of the Armenians that are living in these areas have been living there for quite some time. Some know relatively little about the Genocide and most of the ones that do know about it, only hear it from the "Turkish version of events".How long have they been living there? 4000 years? 1000 years? 500 years?I will ever never understand our fascination with Istanbul and Ankara. Who promised them to us?Have you forgotten that in 1915 over 300 of our best intellectuals were rounded up in a matter of hours and summarily murdered? Can it happen again?What business do we have in Istanbul? When was Istanbul an Armenian town?Survey the map below, Armenia at its biggest, and tell us when we even came close... to Istanbul. Do us all a favor and get the hell out of there! How's Destination Yerevan?!!http://hokis.free.fr/dikranii_empire.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffi the Illuminator Posted March 1, 2003 Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Arpa: quote:Originally posted by Raffi the Illuminator:"It shouldn't be difficult to keep out of trouble if Armenians can still live in Turkey. This is what I don't get about people declaring, "never," "what a horrid thought" etc. Also, most of the Armenians that are living in these areas have been living there for quite some time. Some know relatively little about the Genocide and most of the ones that do know about it, only hear it from the "Turkish version of events".How long have they been living there? 4000 years? 1000 years? 500 years?I will ever never understand our fascination with Istanbul and Ankara. Who promised them to us?Have you forgotten that in 1915 over 300 of our best intellectuals were rounded up in a matter of hours and summarily murdered? Can it happen again?What business do we have in Istanbul? When was Istanbul an Armenian town?Survey the map below, Armenia at its biggest, and tell us when we even came close... to Istanbul. Do us all a favor and get the hell out of there! How's Destination Yerevan?!!http://hokis.free.fr/dikranii_empire.htmI'm not sure if you are refering this message to me but I don't recall saying Istanbul ever belonged to Armenians. All I am saying is that many Armenians who have been living in western Turkey have been there for quite some time. For how long? I don't know. Possibly hundreds of years. The point I am trying to make is that I am a strong supporter of human rights and I strongly disagree with the severe human rights abuses that present day Turkey is guilty of (nevermind the past). Given the fact that I can often be blunt, have a "big mouth" and stubbornly, sometimes don't know when to keep quite about certain things, I think it would be a better idea for me not to set foot in that country. I'm also quite aware of the events of 1915 as well as events in the 1880's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffi the Illuminator Posted March 1, 2003 Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 If your message was not directed at me, then yes I definately agree that Armenians should be wary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Arpa by your logic you and other Armenians shold leave the US. Excuse me but I seem to recall a great many years where there was no such (incorporated or whatever) nation/state called Armenia - all Armenians thus lived under other's jurisdiction. Not only have Armenians lived in Istanbul/Constantinople for centuries (far pre-dating the arrival of the Turks) - but that have a legacy there of achievement and culture. Istanbul/Constantinople was the seat of two mighty Empires and one of the centers of world culture =- at the pinacle for its time - for nearly two thousand years. How dare you belitle Armenians for being a part of such! As for the Armenians living in Istanbul/Constantinople currently - well it is their home - it is their culture - what right have you to judge them? [ March 01, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Arpa, the map of the Armenian Empire seems to me somehow incorrect. The "jamanagavor" territories close to and along side Pontus, were not "jamanagavor", but constant for the time being and also for many centuries had thriving Armenian colonies.As to Constantinople (Istanbul is a dirty word in my vocabulary) it is well known that many Armenian nobility find refuge there and were granted special status within Byzantium, as well as many Armenian princely houses were part of Byzantium nobility. PS: Is it a joke about the camels. As far as I know they were only "transiting" Armenia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 quote:Originally posted by gamavor:I'm one of the few that believes that we are the center of the Civilization:) That said, I don't think we should strive to come close to Europe, but Europe should strive to come close to us, where basically they originated from. So, there is NO special place in my heart for "going West", because we are the West. As to monophisyte vs. dyphysite, I guess that was part of the same tendencies to coop us. In essence there is no difference. The difference is created only for the purpose to be different, which is convenient for everybody.Atta boy Gamavor!Did I tell you that Erebuni means "west"? It is based on the Assyrian/Aramaic "ereb" that means west as opposed to "asi"=east. Asi=Asia and "ereb"= ereba, Europe.Don't take my word for it, ask someone who knows Arabic and see what their word for west is. Gharb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:...Armenia is a rocky, craggy and mountainous, camels cannot thrive and work there. That is why we have so many jackasses and mules...HAHAHA That's just plain hilarious. Thanks for the chuckles Arpa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Arpa, you owe me this: What is Atta boy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 "Atta Boy" is an American idiomatic expression which means "bravo" or "good boy." It is a way to praise someone for good deeds or good words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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