MJ Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: PS: Strange thing, the word "holiday" (holy day) has gone exactly the oppposite way - originally 100% religious, now 100% secular (although Americans seem to go about wishing each other a "happy holiday" at Christmas, a practice that now seems decidedly strange to Britons, but which must result from the original usage being preserved in America and lost in Britain.[/QB]Americans use the term “Happy Holidays” on Christmas, when they are not sure about the religious affiliation of the counterparty, and they are aware that the other person might be Jew, militant atheist, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 I think the usage of the word “pilgrimage” in the discussed context depends on who are we trying to appeal to – older people identifying themselves with the Church (who more likely would have the money for the journey) or to the younger generation who has some positive agenda of bringing attention to the decaying monuments and to achieve some spiritual goals. I am pretty sure about the Echmiadzin site. It is known (sorry don’t remember the source) that Echmiadzin has been built on the site of a pagan temple, which has been destroyed so that to use the stones in the construction of the cathedral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy: quote:Originally posted by nairi:Btw Stormy, you never answered Boghos's last question. I'm curious myself...So'm I. Hmm. That doesn't really answer the question as to whether you're planning a trip like that as well. Or have you already done so? If so, where did you go and what did you think of it? Would you go again? On second thought, are you trying to say that you're not sure if you'll ever go yourself? I don't really understand your reply (please don't say: neither do I ). Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 I have already done so. However, I reserve the right to keep the rest to myself. Let me just say that, if in fact someone knows such a group and is thinking of joining them, I can give some advice or consult my own guide. The real reason why I asked about a travel agency is because it should be difficult to find one that will present trips suitable for Armenians or will be informative enough for them. You will have to remember that there is a big void in knowledge of Armenians in Turkey. The last thing you want to happen is to have to argue with a tour guide about whether that structure you see there in the distance is an Armenian church converted into a mosque or it has been a mosque all along (as the guide is likely to claim or expected to know). Guided tours also think of money and try to show you as many sites as possible in a little stretch of time. This means that you miss details, some of them very valuable, on the site and on the surface you see a lot of things but in actuality close to nothing. You could just as well look at their photographs at home. With independent groups, you can afford flexibility in schedule and change and/or add it as you see fit. Problems may arise due to compatibility within the group, but I have nothing to say about that to adults, obviously. The other issue, again related to money, is that all tours in Turkey will put you up in expensive places, since this benefits them as well. These may not be expensive by Western standards. However, for those Armenians who would want to contribute as little to the economy as possible, you would be surprised how cheap accomodation can be in Turkey. That translates into less money contributed to the Turkish economy. Just another nugget. And that, coupled with catering, would more than make up for any inconveniences, monetary or otherwise, that would arise from transportation or mistakes thereof. [ February 25, 2003, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Stormy ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy:I have already done so. However, I reserve the right to keep the rest to myself. Why so secretive? quote:Let me just say that, if in fact someone knows such a group and is thinking of joining them, I can give some advice or consult my own guide.I'm all ears (to hear your advice that is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 I have been solicited by friend and aquaintance to join one of those so called "pilgrimages". There are people who specialize in the venture, they play on peoples' emotions . I will not cite them and advertise. I will not go to what is now known as Turkey via Istanbul, the only way I may do is via Yerevan with the victorious Tricolor held high. Until then I will limit my "pilgrimage" to surveying Ani across the Akhurian Gorge and envision the recapture. I have done that. I will not take a step into Turkey until I have the deed of ownership to the land. The Armenian equivalent of "pilgrim" is "oukhtavor" and "pilgrimage" is "oukhtagnatsum". "oukht" in fact means and "oath"" a "vow", i.e swearing on a sacred object. Let us do that. Let us take an "oukht" that we will only go on a "pilgrimage" to those lands when it is totally liberated. Toumanian may have said it best in his "Hye Oukhtavorin". Ð²Ú úàÊî²ìàðÆÜ ¶Ý³ë µ³ñáí, ³Û áõËï³íáñ,ºñ³ÝÇ ù»½, Ñ³Ú áõËï³íáñ, àñ ϳñáïáí àõ ëÇñ³é³ïàõËï »ë ·ÝáõÙ ¹»å ²ñ³ñ³ï. See the rest in the poetry section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:The Armenian equivalent of "pilgrim" is "oukhtavor" and "pilgrimage" is "oukhtagnatsum". "oukht" in fact means and "oath"" a "vow", i.e swearing on a sacred object. [banging my head ] Of coarse the word "oukhtagnatsun" is the proper translation of the word "pilgrimage." Shame on me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy: quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Why do you say "engage with the local community, except Turkey" ?I was merely stating the obvious, because in Anatolia proper there are next to no Armenians left. Yes, we know that...but Armenian life was not only manifested in Anatolia but also in the big urban centres, such as Izmir and Istanbul where you can engage the local community... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by Arpa:The Armenian equivalent of "pilgrim" is "oukhtavor" and "pilgrimage" is "oukhtagnatsum". "oukht" in fact means and "oath"" a "vow", i.e swearing on a sacred object. [banging my head ] Of coarse the word "oukhtagnatsun" is the proper translation of the word "pilgrimage." Shame on me... Do you see what I see?Are not the Armenian "oukht" and the English "oath" tantalizingly homophonous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Arpa:Do you see what I see?Are not the Armenian "oukht" and the English "oath" tantalizingly homophonous?Interesting observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:walkabout... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:Btw Stormy, you never answered Boghos's last question. I'm curious myself...So'm I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by vava: quote:Originally posted by Stormy:Vava, out of further curiosity, would you rather do this as a group of friends (or non-friends) or with some travel agency ready to rip you off.I would probably enjoy the visit to a greater degree if accompanied by someone versed in the History (in an Armenian context) of the areas I was visiting. I have only just recently begun to expose myself to the richness of Armenian history. I would expect it to be a fantastic learning opportunity to visit these sites first hand, and immediately ask questions/receive answers on diverse aspects of Armenian history, culture, architecture, religion etc. Someone knowledgable in Armenian architecture would be quite handy too! If there was a travel agency that offered a service to Armenians, it would certainly facilitate the organisation of such a trip and probably alleviate much of the worry. (One would hope that they wouldn't be ripping us off ) Are you planning on created such a travel agency? smilies/lol.gif quote: Also, I'm curious to be given examples of "restricted zones". What and where are they?The site that you referred to above about ANI:http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/contains some information on some of these areas. (Although the site seems to be down at the moment.)Vava, why don't you gather a group of friends (people as nice as yourself, preferrably) and travel with Steve? He has the qualities you ask for. I don't plan on creating such a travel agency. How could I? As for the restricted zones, there is so much more outside the border zones and military bases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stormy: quote:Originally posted by nairi:I'm all ears (to hear your advice that is).Let me know when you decide, via PM or such, and I'll draw up an itinerary according to how many days you can spare. I actually wanted to see what you had to offer before I decided on anything. I'll definitely be going to New Julfa in Esphahan at some point in my life as my parents were born and raised there, but I'm not sure if I can call that a pilgrimage. More like sightseeing, and visiting an uncle and cousin: the last of my immediate family in Iran. Turkey and Israel are not as interesting to me, as I don't have any direct attachment to it (I don't have any survivors of genocide or the like in my ancestry). The only place that might be of interest to me is the city my ancestors were ripped out of by Shah Abbas, but even that happened so long ago that I hardly feel related to it. Arpa jan, here's two more: ukhtagnats for pilgrim, and ukhtagnatsutiun for pilgrimage. Ukhtagatsutiun also means tourism nowadays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 Very enlightening thread. Up until now, I was under the impression that "ooxd" and "ooxdagnatsutiun" had something to do with camels ... i.e. they went there on a camel or something. I have to say it was bothering me since I had a feeling that there were no camels in Armenia. Things make so much more sense now! [ February 25, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 Sipan jan, I think you're thinking of ught Edit: Actually there were camels in Armenia until relatively late in the 19th century, and perhaps even in the early 20th. [ February 25, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: nairi ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 Ok! That does it!I'm getting terribly confused with all the different transliterations going on... We have "oukhtagnatsum", and we have "ukhtagnatsutiun", and now Sip writes: "ooxdagnatsutiun"! Which one is it?? And furthermore - is there a set of rules for Armenian/English Transliteration?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote: Vava, why don't you gather a group of friends (people as nice as yourself, preferrably) and travel with Steve? He has the qualities you ask for. Is Steve pretty? Actually, I have been thinking quite a bit about organizing a trip to Armenia. However there are a few limiting factors. Here are two of them: 1. - http://www3.sympatico.ca/mivava/images/Bag.gif and 2. http://www3.sympatico.ca/mivava/images/Clock.gif Anyway, when I do go, I doubt that it would be with more than 1 or 2 other people. It's hard enough to agree with one Armenian, better to avoid the hassle of determining a travel itinerary with a whole bunch! [ February 26, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: vava ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:I actually wanted to see what you had to offer before I decided on anything. I'm not a dealer. You should know by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by vava: quote: Vava, why don't you gather a group of friends (people as nice as yourself, preferrably) and travel with Steve? He has the qualities you ask for. Is Steve pretty? smilies/lol.gifI can't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:I'm all ears (to hear your advice that is).Let me know when you decide, via PM or such, and I'll draw up an itinerary according to how many days you can spare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Let's do some exercise here. If you were to be told that you would be asked to share your experiences in some form or via some medium, to share with other Armenians, family members, etc., how would that change your attitude toward this "pilgrimage"? Or would it just add something? To the way you make your observations, to what you record (on paper, on camera, etc.)......... What would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Seap is a dirty rotten rat and he is the devil He was making a camel of everyone while in the meantime he was making an ass of himself. He should be tied to the tail of a camel and dragged down Mashtots Poghota. He was pulling our legs playing on words. He knows very well the difference of ought and oukht. As to camels in Armenia, yes there may have been camels in Armenia they became extinct when there was a big dispute whether they should were miasapat or ergsapat. In fact Armenian camels were bazmasapat just like the number of prez candidates but not quite as many as forms of transliteration. There may be 8 million of us but we have 10 million opinions about transliteration. BTW Nairi, I was aware of the oukhtagnatsuTIUN but I try to shorten as much as I can, I have talked about this before, whenever I can form a noun with the UM ending I spare the U-TIUN. Is this a shatakhosutiun or is it shatakhosq?On a more serious note, maybe we can have Raffi Kojian of Cilicia.com air his piece about [Oukht-ert (there, another word!) depi] Oughtasar. Yes, there is a mountain in Armenia called Oughtasar- Camel Mountain.Raffi, are you there?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Oh! BTW, if this thread goes in the way of transliteration and other language matters, please stsrt a new thread under the Language topic, otherwise we will all make asses of ourselves and be as confused as the number of humps on a camel. So? Which of the camels is native Armenian, the Bactrian or the Dromedary? Obvously the one which ends in the dubious -IAN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Arpa, LMAO! I guess I have turned into the "boy who cried wolf". Actually this time I was serious in the fact that I really thought "ughd" (sorry whichever way it's spelled) -gnal was spelled the same as the animal ughd. I had only heard both and thus assumed it's the same word. I am not that well versed in written/formal armenian ... only up to 6-th grade in Iran but after the revolution which means only 2 hours per week in school. I do know the letters and I can read if I try hard enough but that's about it. I am working on it though ... fortunately, UCLA has a nice Armenian department with plenty of great classes at all levels (only wish I had more free time). Speechless at the camel type! Way too cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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